In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts

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MSJ

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« Reply #60 on: April 08, 2017, 02:26:18 pm »
I agree with you there.

Ok, bear with me here. So, if we take the JE as an objective viewpoint on morality and the JE see the chorae as holy, then they are right? I mean, what if that's why the Nonmen shut down the Apropos? It kills sorcerers and the JE (assuming it's the viewpoint of the God) sees sorcerers as damned, because they are speaking with the Gods voice, altering reality so to say. And, we know that why the Nonmen built Mansions underground was to hide from the Gods. The chorae were a one way ticket to damnation.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #61 on: April 08, 2017, 03:41:50 pm »
Oh, no, you misunderstood.

I was just wondering who other than Mimara thinks that the chorae are holy.

I'm in the camp that thinks TJE shows the true world, or at the very least shows the true world as it exists for the most powerful/controlling deity that exists in part or in whole in the outside.
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geoffrobro

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« Reply #62 on: April 08, 2017, 03:47:41 pm »
But we know for a fact chorae aren't holy objects. She sees it as holy bcuz that is what she has been told all her life. Sorcerers are damned cuz she's been told that all her life by Anoini. The people most scared of sorcery. She has been told the Scylvendi are damned bcuz she grew up in the nasurium where they are the meaning of evil. Even though she technically has met the most "holy" person, a man who has a guaranteed spot in the outside. A prince of hell.

Well, you could very well be right and I won't be one to claim I know what's what on Earwa metaphysically. But, if she views a chorae as something empty, a dark pit without the Eye, I'm taking that as her view. Doesn't matter what she's been told, to me. She has her own thoughts. Using your same logic, she is a woman, and also a whore. Which, going by Nansur worldviews are next to Sorcerors as being most damned. She has also been told this her whole life. So, why wouldn't this same hold true when she sees herself with the JE? That's where that falls apart.
No that's not where it falls apart, that's the point. Based on everything she's seen and known she should be damned but for some reason isn't. A pregnant crackhead looks into her reflection and sees she's the only holy person she's met.

Oh, no, you misunderstood.

I was just wondering who other than Mimara thinks that the chorae are holy.

I'm in the camp that thinks TJE shows the true world, or at the very least shows the true world as it exists for the most powerful/controlling deity that exists in part or in whole in the outside.
The common man thinks chorae are holy and sacred. Sorcerers know where they came from but during The PON they were commonly referred to as holy trinkets.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 03:54:51 pm by geoffrobro »
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Wilshire

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« Reply #63 on: April 08, 2017, 04:07:58 pm »
The common man thinks chorae are holy and sacred. Sorcerers know where they came from but during The PON they were commonly referred to as holy trinkets.

Fair enough. That answers my question :)
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MSJ

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« Reply #64 on: April 08, 2017, 04:10:17 pm »
Geoffrobro, but that goes against your argument. Your saying, what I'm assuming, is that her worldview reflects what the Judging Eye sees and wether it's damned or not. You gave examples for why everyone was damned that she sees with the Eye. But, if that's the case, she would be damned also. Her worldview has nothing to do with what the JE shows her.

Oh, no, you misunderstood.

I was just wondering who other than Mimara thinks that the chorae are holy.

I'm in the camp that thinks TJE shows the true world, or at the very least shows the true world as it exists for the most powerful/controlling deity that exists in part or in whole in the outside.

I didn't misunderstand you. I was just trying to find a reason why Mimara would see the chorae as holy through the JE, is all. I also assume the JE is the view of the God and shows us the objective morality of Earwa. So Mimara and her worldview and what she's been taught means ABSOLUTELY nothing to what the JE shows her and us.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 04:19:24 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #65 on: April 08, 2017, 04:54:48 pm »
Well, holy chorae fit into the worldbuilding very well.

God finds sorcery anathema - so schoolmen are damned.
Chorae's sole purpose is to undo the wrongs wrought from sorcery. They do gods work - therefore holy.
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MSJ

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« Reply #66 on: April 08, 2017, 05:02:26 pm »
Well, holy chorae fit into the worldbuilding very well.

God finds sorcery anathema - so schoolmen are damned.
Chorae's sole purpose is to undo the wrongs wrought from sorcery. They do gods work - therefore holy.

I noticed in a previous post, you didn't say God. Rather, the diety the has most power on the Outside. See, I get very confused when talking about the God vs the 100. I recognize the difference, the 100 are shards of the God, principles you might say. ;) 

But, when Kellhus explains the God to Proyas, I am assuming he is talking about the 100. Because, even when Kellhus talks to whoever in his dreams under the tree, whoever says that he is trying to drive the God forth. I guess in order to war with him. So, it's all rather confusing to me.

ETA: it's probably Kellhus who is under that tree, just his version of himself in the Outside. But, I always hold out hope it might be Moe.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 05:15:52 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

themerchant

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« Reply #67 on: April 08, 2017, 06:07:14 pm »
tears of god=chorae

MSJ

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« Reply #68 on: April 08, 2017, 07:46:32 pm »
But we know for a fact chorae aren't holy objects. She sees it as holy bcuz that is what she has been told all her life. Sorcerers are damned cuz she's been told that all her life by Anoini. The people most scared of sorcery. She has been told the Scylvendi are damned bcuz she grew up in the nasurium where they are the meaning of evil. Even though she technically has met the most "holy" person, a man who has a guaranteed spot in the outside. A prince of hell.

This what I thought your argument was for. You say the most holy person she seen is a Prince of Hell. I assumed Cnaüir or Captain...
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

geoffrobro

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« Reply #69 on: April 08, 2017, 08:15:33 pm »
Geoffrobro, but that goes against your argument. Your saying, what I'm assuming, is that her worldview reflects what the Judging Eye sees and wether it's damned or not. You gave examples for why everyone was damned that she sees with the Eye. But, if that's the case, she would be damned also. Her worldview has nothing to do with what the JE shows her.

Oh, no, you misunderstood.

I was just wondering who other than Mimara thinks that the chorae are holy.

I'm in the camp that thinks TJE shows the true world, or at the very least shows the true world as it exists for the most powerful/controlling deity that exists in part or in whole in the outside.

I didn't misunderstand you. I was just trying to find a reason why Mimara would see the chorae as holy through the JE, is all. I also assume the JE is the view of the God and shows us the objective morality of Earwa. So Mimara and her worldview and what she's been taught means ABSOLUTELY nothing to what the JE shows her and us.
But that's my point, why is she the exception to her own rule.
But we know for a fact chorae aren't holy objects. She sees it as holy bcuz that is what she has been told all her life. Sorcerers are damned cuz she's been told that all her life by Anoini. The people most scared of sorcery. She has been told the Scylvendi are damned bcuz she grew up in the nasurium where they are the meaning of evil. Even though she technically has met the most "holy" person, a man who has a guaranteed spot in the outside. A prince of hell.

This what I thought your argument was for. You say the most holy person she seen is a Prince of Hell. I assumed Cnaüir or Captain...

Chauiir. Mimara says that he will be a prince in hell, guaranteeing a spot in the outside. And from what kellhus has seen that may make you a chiphang (which is what I think kellhus saw spit and eat that baby in the outside), to me that means your holy, you've been blessed by the god in their sick way. Cnauir has been blessed by the God of war, many people have seen it. Shouldn't more of the People of war be blessed by the god of war. These are his people, they may not worship him in name but they do in spirit. How can they all be damned because of "being Scylvendi"? That is something a Nasur would think and believe. So why does the God of God believe such?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 08:48:50 pm by geoffrobro »
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MSJ

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« Reply #70 on: April 08, 2017, 08:39:06 pm »
But that's my point, why is she the exception to her own rule.

Because, it's not her rule?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #71 on: April 09, 2017, 08:48:33 pm »
Gotta say that I'm totally lost at this point. Geoffrobro, I don't understand your position at all.

What do you mean by Holy?
How do you know chorae aren't Holy?
Why is a prince of Hell Holy?

You seem to be using damnation and holy as interchangable, which I think is not only confusing but a big mistake.

At least we can agree that Mimara sees Mimara and Cnaiur very differently. Are they both the same kind of holy?

Your argument seems to be that Mimara see what she wants to see, or that she sees what she has been told growing up. Yes?

But, if that is the case, why does she see herself of Good, with silver haloes? She says herself that she is holy. Everything about her life leads her to believe she is damned, and she is surprised and disgusted that TJE shows that she is good and holy.

That one fact alone really destroys that entire line of reasoning.
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geoffrobro

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« Reply #72 on: April 10, 2017, 08:00:12 pm »
I need to seriously think this thru and post. I look back and I'm not making sense and I'm posting at work on my phone. But my point started with why is it that mimara's customs and culture coincide with the eye?
I never thought of any religion to be 100% true but apparently inrithism is and did inri have it? This 2000 year old religion just spit out it's proof of being real. I'm sorry guys I do need to collect my thoughts
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Cuttlefish

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« Reply #73 on: April 10, 2017, 08:54:51 pm »

I can't say I care much for the concept of the Judging Eye, either. This is just my general preference, but I don't like it when some new, game-changing concept is introduced every once in a while, to a series. I think it's best when the general rules of the setting are laid out early on, and any progression on them is gradual as opposed to "and here's this wholly new thing!" What guarantee is there that the next book won't introduce some new, incredibly weird game-changing concept that takes the story in a wholly different direction?

I sympathize with your feelings of frustration over the introduction of "game-changing" concepts, but I think in an incredibly dense world- building series such as TSA, part of the narrative arc has to include the introduction of such concepts. It's important to consider that in a realistic sub-creation such as Eärwa, the knowledge of the characters is limited. Discoveries are made. Events occur. At the beginning of PoN, only the Mandate believe that the Consult still exists.

Imho, TUC will blow our minds with game-changing concepts.

I realize that, and that's only natural. But I feel like the concepts that will be introduced will mostly resolve or continue the plot threads laid out early on, such as the nature of No-God.

MSJ

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« Reply #74 on: April 10, 2017, 09:48:18 pm »
I need to seriously think this thru and post. I look back and I'm not making sense and I'm posting at work on my phone. But my point started with why is it that mimara's customs and culture coincide with the eye?
I never thought of any religion to be 100% true but apparently inrithism is and did inri have it? This 2000 year old religion just spit out it's proof of being real. I'm sorry guys I do need to collect my thoughts

No, Inrithism isn't right. It's they who preach that whores are damned.

I'd say that the easiest way to explain this is that, the JE is a objective view on morality of Earwa. Like how Mimara says that pigs are damned and snakes are holy. The God  (I'm not sure that this is the God of Gods or an entirely different entity) is who has the viewpoint from the JE, it has ZERO to do with what Mimara thinks. Remember, whoever Kellhus speaks to in the Visions under the Tree, says he is warring with the God. But, it sleeps, and he is trying to drive him forth to War.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,