[lastborn]

We know that Kellhus spared Meppa's life at the end of TGO. However, the reason for this is not evident as yet, but we can conjecture that it has something to do with the powers and characteristics of the Psûkhe.

The things we already know about sorcery in general are:
1. Sorcerers imitate the Voice of God.
2. The reason that sorcerers (Gnostic/Anagogic) have a visible (to certain people) Mark is because their imperfect imitation of the Voice of God bruises the onta.
3. Cishaurim do not possess a Mark as their way of accessing sorcery imitates the Voice of God in a much more precise way due to their blinding themselves and seeing through holes.
4. The Gnosis is superior to the Anagogis as it directly creates changes in the World while the Anagogis has to use abstractions to describe the world.
5. The Anagogis is in turn superior to the Psûkhe (in direct strength) as the Psûkari are blinded to the majority of the world and so cannot use detailed magics.

Basically - the Gnosis is analogous to speaking technical language to the World, directly shedding Meaning. The Anagogis is analogous to speaking to the World in poetic language - some Meaning is lost. And the Psûkhe is equivalent to speaking to the World in simple language, with lesser control over Meaning, but imitating the Voice of God perfectly.

The reason that Moënghus Elder was unable to muster much sorcerous power was due to the Dûnyain's atrophied emotions - he was never able to muster the passion required to even be a Secondary, much less a Primary. Kellhus knows this, and would be preparing contingencies. He is already the greatest Gnostic and Daimotic (and presumably Anagogic) sorcerer in history due to his extreme intellect and the Thousandfold Thought.

However, to truly speak in the Voice of God, he needs the Psûkhe. We all know from Achamian and Xinemus's captivity with the Scarlet Spires that Cants of Compulsion force the one Compelled to feel exactly as they are compelled to. Therefore, I predict that Kellhus will use Meppa's Waters to Speak in the Voice of God with precise meaning, rewriting reality itself - possibly disenchanting the world/sealing the Outside/messing with the Gods themselves.

[MSJ]

We know that Kellhus spared Meppa's life at the end of TGO. However, the reason for this is not evident as yet, but we can conjecture that it has something to do with the powers and characteristics of the Psûkhe.

The things we already know about sorcery in general are:
1. Sorcerers imitate the Voice of God.
2. The reason that sorcerers (Gnostic/Anagogic) have a visible (to certain people) Mark is because their imperfect imitation of the Voice of God bruises the onta.
3. Cishaurim do not possess a Mark as their way of accessing sorcery imitates the Voice of God in a much more precise way due to their blinding themselves and seeing through holes.
4. The Gnosis is superior to the Anagogis as it directly creates changes in the World while the Anagogis has to use abstractions to describe the world.
5. The Anagogis is in turn superior to the Psûkhe (in direct strength) as the Psûkari are blinded to the majority of the world and so cannot use detailed magics.

Basically - the Gnosis is analogous to speaking technical language to the World, directly shedding Meaning. The Anagogis is analogous to speaking to the World in poetic language - some Meaning is lost. And the Psûkhe is equivalent to speaking to the World in simple language, with lesser control over Meaning, but imitating the Voice of God perfectly.

The reason that Moënghus Elder was unable to muster much sorcerous power was due to the Dûnyain's atrophied emotions - he was never able to muster the passion required to even be a Secondary, much less a Primary. Kellhus knows this, and would be preparing contingencies. He is already the greatest Gnostic and Daimotic (and presumably Anagogic) sorcerer in history due to his extreme intellect and the Thousandfold Thought.

However, to truly speak in the Voice of God, he needs the Psûkhe. We all know from Achamian and Xinemus's captivity with the Scarlet Spires that Cants of Compulsion force the one Compelled to feel exactly as they are compelled to. Therefore, I predict that Kellhus will use Meppa's Waters to Speak in the Voice of God with precise meaning, rewriting reality itself - possibly disenchanting the world/sealing the Outside/messing with the Gods themselves.

:slow clap:  I like it. I like it a lot.

ETA: I would add that Kellhus was VERY interested in Malowebi's charm-based magic also. I can see that being used by him going forward. Maybe as a way to protect the Ordeal from sorcerers as they near Golgoterreth? Just musing. I like your thoughts and can see something like that happening.

[lastborn]

Thank you.

I had a follow-up question: what would happen if some sorcerer Compelled a Dûnyain to feel emotions?

[MSJ]

Thank you.

I had a follow-up question: what would happen if some sorcerer Compelled a Dûnyain to feel emotions?

Well didn't the Torturer try and Compel Serwa to no avail?

[H]

Thank you.

I had a follow-up question: what would happen if some sorcerer Compelled a Dûnyain to feel emotions?

Well, Kellhus does show some emotions from time to time.  What he doesn't do is allow that to control him.  I don't really think that Kellhus awash in emotion would really compel him, he is too far along the Thousandfold Thought to be budged by almost anything (including himself).

[MSJ]

Thank you.

I had a follow-up question: what would happen if some sorcerer Compelled a Dûnyain to feel emotions?

Well, Kellhus does show some emotions from time to time.  What he doesn't do is allow that to control him.  I don't really think that Kellhus awash in emotion would really compel him, he is too far along the Thousandfold Thought to be budged by almost anything (including himself).

See now I think Kellhus's emotions, beginning in the Circumfix is what made him more, what made the TT his. Moe cared nothing of damnation, nothing. Just the destruction of the Consult. Kellhus knows his proclamations that Sorcerers are not damned is bullshit. He knows everyone, even Serwe, is damned. And those emotions is what has compelled him to end damnation. So, yes, a Dûnyain can be compelled by emotions. Count on a bit of this being revealed to Akka when he kneels.

[MSJ]

Though, I agree with H. Now, that he is on a path to wherever the TT leads, he will not let emotions get him sidetracked. But, again, I do believe emotions is what set him on his course.

[Wilshire]

Yeah I can't imagine the purpose of keeping Meppa alive for any reason other than figuring out the inner workings of the Psuke.
Maybe that's too direct and there is some other path, but I certainly don't see it. 

[MSJ]

Yeah I can't imagine the purpose of keeping Meppa alive for any reason other than figuring out the inner workings of the Psuke.
Maybe that's too direct and there is some other path, but I certainly don't see it.

Well, Kellhus does make some statement like, "Such Power", when facing off Meppa. I agree he definitely sees some value to the Psûkhe. Or, it's just the Voice telling him what to do.....

[H]

Though, I agree with H. Now, that he is on a path to wherever the TT leads, he will not let emotions get him sidetracked. But, again, I do believe emotions is what set him on his course.

Well, that is where we differ.  While I don't doubt that Kellhus has emotions, I don't think that is what set him on a track that lead him to a different Thousandfold Thought than Moënghus imagined.  Well, actually scratch that, Moënghus knew that the full Thousandfold Thought was beyond him, that is why he called Kellhus to him in the first place.  What he didn't realize was that it would necessitate his death.  The lynchpin for me is the Voice.  And Kellhus admits (in TGO) that it was his "disorder" that lead him to listen to the Voice.  That is what set him apart.

Why?  Because one of the major things we learn in the Kellhus-Moënghus TTT confrontation is that papa Moë is wrong in the assuption that the Law of Before and After is inviolate.  We know, especially post-TGO that this is false.  So, that is why Moënghus could not carry on the Thousandfold Thought.  But Kellhus, semi-deranged (mad, if you will, but I wouldn't call it madness) was open at that point on the Circumfix.  Open to himself reaching back and that is where the true Thousandfold Thought comes into play.  Could we call his state on the Circumfix emotional?  Perhaps, but that isn't the connotation I would ascribe to it, but it could fit.

Yeah I can't imagine the purpose of keeping Meppa alive for any reason other than figuring out the inner workings of the Psuke.
Maybe that's too direct and there is some other path, but I certainly don't see it.

Well, Kellhus does make some statement like, "Such Power", when facing off Meppa. I agree he definitely sees some value to the Psûkhe. Or, it's just the Voice telling him what to do.....

Recall how many times The Thousandfold Thought has basically dictated the keeping of an "enemy" alive though.  Kellhus has had plenty of time and opportunity to kill Akka, Aurang, Fanayal, Sorweel, and so on.   We keep asking why, which is proof positive (to me, now) that the Voice speaks from the future Kellhus.  Each has a part to play, which makes no sense now, but will later.

Think of it as Kellhus keeping Akka alive.  He allows it, Akka writes the books (why this is needed I don't know, but perhaps to draw Mimara to him?) and so Mimara goes to him, she gets pregnant and so has the Judging Eye which is needed (for what, maybe to look at Kellhus?  Maybe to look at the No-God?).  It's all connected, but not in a causal way that we see, because the Thousandfold Thought is beyond Before and After now, because it's author (future Kellhus) is directing it from beyond the Now.

[themerchant]

I personally think the thousand fold thought is the mechanism of the the game of existence. The driving force which moves the pieces of the game to play out their roles. The Dunyain are capable of conceptualizing fate as a series of deterministic actions. They didn't create it, they just apprehended it. Then like Virismista started enacting it as they believe in it. He is just following the TTT there is nothing else he can do for there are no moves in the games that haven't been predetermined.

I think this is a game of Benjukala basically and the people in the Earwa are the board. They have no free will (no moves) the only thing they can do is change the parts of the game and the rules. Mandate and Dunyain an attempt at adding parts, Kellhus rewriting society rules. Seswatha trying to communicate across games maybe? With dreams?



I'm using Abenjukala as the context.

1. The game enacts the form of creation. To be is to be for the Game

2. The parts of the game are the whole of the game, given the rules that compel them. The parts and the rules comprise the elements of the game( this part is important, elements are the rules and parts)

3. There are no moves (acts) in the Game, only the changing permutations of the elements. (this means there is no free will, no moves. You can only change the elements, which are the rules and the players)

4...

5. To lose is to cease to exist for the Game, to be as dead. Since the Game is always the same Game, rebirth belongs to the survivor. The dead return as strangers.

[Bolivar]

I expect Meppa is coming North with Kellhus and whoever he takes with him (Esmenet, Kelmomas, etc), for the tactical advantage of having a sorcerer without a mark. Given the timing of the Consult disappearing lining up roughly with the birth of Fanimry, maybe there's some connection there which would make the last Cishaurim indispensable for the Ordeal.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[H]

I personally think the thousand fold thought is the mechanism of the the game of existence. The driving force which moves the pieces of the game to play out their roles. The Dunyain are capable of conceptualizing fate as a series of deterministic actions. They didn't create it, they just apprehended it. Then like Virismista started enacting it as they believe in it. He is just following the TTT there is nothing else he can do for there are no moves in the games that haven't been predetermined.

Indeed, this is essentially what I think is happening.  Even Kellhus' enemies have a "part to play" such that it isn't possible (or should I say adventageous?) for him to eliminate them just yet.  Like Akka's role, there are things that need to be done that specifically cannot be done by Kellhus, by virtue of literally needing to be done by someone else.

While everyone else is a piece on the board, Kellhus is a piece and the hand moving them.

I expect Meppa is coming North with Kellhus and whoever he takes with him (Esmenet, Kelmomas, etc), for the tactical advantage of having a sorcerer without a mark. Given the timing of the Consult disappearing lining up roughly with the birth of Fanimry, maybe there's some connection there which would make the last Cishaurim indispensable for the Ordeal.

Now that you mention it, I had kind of thought the same thing.  However, that doesn't really make much sense, in that would Meppa ever submit to Kellhus?  Would Meppa under a permanent Cant of Compulsion really be that strong in the Water?  In fact, would the Pshuke even work at all, needing raw passion?  Or maybe it wouldn't matter?

I actually think maybe Kellhus leaves Meppa to pick up the pieces of the Fanim army.  Why?  I don't know though.

[Monkhound]

I personally think the thousand fold thought is the mechanism of the the game of existence. The driving force which moves the pieces of the game to play out their roles. The Dunyain are capable of conceptualizing fate as a series of deterministic actions. They didn't create it, they just apprehended it. Then like Virismista started enacting it as they believe in it. He is just following the TTT there is nothing else he can do for there are no moves in the games that haven't been predetermined.

Indeed, this is essentially what I think is happening.  Even Kellhus' enemies have a "part to play" such that it isn't possible (or should I say adventageous?) for him to eliminate them just yet.  Like Akka's role, there are things that need to be done that specifically cannot be done by Kellhus, by virtue of literally needing to be done by someone else.

While everyone else is a piece on the board, Kellhus is a piece and the hand moving them.

Talk about an interesting game of Benjuka...
The hints and rules have been there since the beginning.

[MSJ]

Question. What everyone's thoughts on if Kellhus sees Akka as an enemy that plays a part, or an ally?

For me, that line about Akka kneeling resonates throughout the entire series for me. Its key. Its something Kellhus has seen through the PT or what the Voice has told him. Everyone knows my thought on "why" Akka will kneel, but he will kneel. Will it be my pet theory or something else? Like maybe Mimara gazes upon him and he is HOLY?