[H]

I just had an idea, because I was spinning some nonsense in chatting with Madness the other day, coming up with things that make sense but not really.  My question was essentially, why does Yatwer seem to be able to see everything, what happens and move agents within that, yet, cannot account for Kellhus?

Well, I was thinking that Kellhus is somehow outside of time, but that doesn't really make sense, since if he was, why not just go back and kill anyone before they were even a problem?  No, something more subtle is happening I think.

So, in spinning ideas of what goes on in the scene where the White-Luck Warrior tries to assassinate Kellhus, I started to wonder, what goes wrong?  It's Kelmomas' intervention, seemingly, that disentangles Kellhus and the Narindar.  That got me thinking, what do Kellhus (who has shown to be disentangled before and act beyond Yatwer's seeing) and Kelmomas share?  Well, one, is blood, but what is the effect of the blood?  Possibly the answer is to be "self-moving souls."

How?  Well, Kellhus tells us he is moved by visions (a topic for yet aother thread, but here it suffices that they exist, whatever the source) and Kelmomas is moved by either the Voice, Esmenet's affection, or, as Inrilatas, tells us, the pursuit of God-hood, perhaps The Absolute.  In either case, they are outside the usual cause-effect chain, outside the Darkness the Comes Before.

Why would this make them blind spots to Yatwer (and the rest of the Gods).  Well, possibly because the God are that Darkness.  Since they come before, they know what comes after.  But with the Absolute, with a self-moving soul, they are blind, because they cannot be seen in the chain of cause-and-effect.

Indeed, Kellhus says "You can be Everywhere and still blind," "You can be Eternal and remember nothing."  Also, "Even the infinite can be surprised."  The Anasûrimbor's are outside what the Gods can predict, because they are outside the God's influence (mostly).  They have the ability to move themselves, independent of the God's entangling.

Perhaps?

[mrganondorf]

i'm not entirely sure that Yatwer failed--if you are a fucking GOD, then your one thing would be to plan for the most far-ranging eventualities.  as in, Yatwer attempts and fails to kill Kellhus again and again and again, actually feeding his Dunyain bias that the Dunyain see more than anyone else--THEN the real killing blow falls and it was prepared by all of the other feints along the way.

truly, we really don't know what the Gods do and don't see.  Bakker might be at great pains to make us think they don't see the No-God, but a God would be at God-tier level deception--pretend to be blind to the No-God in order to accomplish some other end 2000 years later.

i wonder what it is that limits Yatwer's ability to cause calamity.  i mean, if you can make earthquakes, then you could just shake the GO for hours and days and weeks until they are all dead, but she doesn't or can't.

is Meppa going to be tainted?  Yatwerian blood like poison in the veins???

[H]

True, there is Sorweel still, really.

As for Meppa, well, there is a second Decaptitant...

[mrganondorf]

True, there is Sorweel still, really.

As for Meppa, well, there is a second Decaptitant...

There is still Zsoronga!  Bakker's got everybody looking at the decoy!  Z kills Kellhus without even understanding what he's doing--IGNORANCE is Yatwer's thing!

About those Decapitants--i hope we find out--are there just 2 or does he have like a closet full of them?

[H]

True, there is Sorweel still, really.

As for Meppa, well, there is a second Decaptitant...

There is still Zsoronga!  Bakker's got everybody looking at the decoy!  Z kills Kellhus without even understanding what he's doing--IGNORANCE is Yatwer's thing!

About those Decapitants--i hope we find out--are there just 2 or does he have like a closet full of them?

Well, at least we know why there were really Decapitants in the first place.  Just showing off that he had been to the Outside was nice and all, but them having a use makes a lot more sense.

An interesting question though, by way of that, was that part of the Tousand-fold Thought the whole time?  It certainly seems so.  That is a real long game there...

[Madness]

Firstly, this topic actually parallels Herbert for me so Dune spoilers for those whom have not read the series.

I just had an idea, because I was spinning some nonsense in chatting with Madness the other day, coming up with things that make sense but not really.  My question was essentially, why does Yatwer seem to be able to see everything, what happens and move agents within that, yet, cannot account for Kellhus?

Or the No-God for that matter, though I have theories regarding both.

So, in spinning ideas of what goes on in the scene where the White-Luck Warrior tries to assassinate Kellhus, I started to wonder, what goes wrong?  It's Kelmomas' intervention, seemingly, that disentangles Kellhus and the Narindar.  That got me thinking, what do Kellhus (who has shown to be disentangled before and act beyond Yatwer's seeing) and Kelmomas share?  Well, one, is blood, but what is the effect of the blood?  Possibly the answer is to be "self-moving souls."

How?  Well, Kellhus tells us he is moved by visions (a topic for yet aother thread, but here it suffices that they exist, whatever the source) and Kelmomas is moved by either the Voice, Esmenet's affection, or, as Inrilatas, tells us, the pursuit of God-hood, perhaps The Absolute.  In either case, they are outside the usual cause-effect chain, outside the Darkness the Comes Before.

Why would this make them blind spots to Yatwer (and the rest of the Gods).  Well, possibly because the God are that Darkness.  Since they come before, they know what comes after.  But with the Absolute, with a self-moving soul, they are blind, because they cannot be seen in the chain of cause-and-effect.

Indeed, Kellhus says "You can be Everywhere and still blind," "You can be Eternal and remember nothing."  Also, "Even the infinite can be surprised."  The Anasûrimbor's are outside what the Gods can predict, because they are outside the God's influence (mostly).  They have the ability to move themselves, independent of the God's entangling.

Perhaps?

(click to show/hide)

Just to get this out of the way. In God-Emperor of Dune, Siona is the result of a breeding program by Leto resulting in a biological equivalent of the Ixian "No-Field," which was a physical space that prescient beings (like Leto and Paul before him) could not account for.

Now the conceit here on my part is that the Dunyain inadvertantly accomplished with the Thousand Thousand Halls what the Nonmen tried to do - maybe succeeded in doing - by digging deep to hide their damnable actions from the Gods. There's discussion for another thread, that maybe Mimara can see the Damnation of the Dunyain for their treatment of the Whale-Mothers, but the idea would be here that perhaps all Dunyain, thus Kellhus' children, managed through their interaction with the Thousand Thousand Halls to become "No-People" a la Dune.

So reasoning aside  - should you not want to read through a Dune parallel - perhaps the blood of Dunyain, thus the blood of the Anasurimbor following Kellhus, allows you to avoid the total perception of the Gods.

We could talk about the No-God in this thread but I feel like that deserves its own thread, based on comments by Oinaral.

[H]

Well, I hadn't ever read that Dune book and probably never will, haha, so I clicked the spoiler.

I have had the theory for a while that something is definitely up with the Anasûrimbor blood, I have no doubts about that any more.  Just what though, I don't know, I still think there is a definite point to there being Nonman blood present.  Is this The Stregth that Kelmomas always talks about?  To resist the God-entanglement?  To move the self, rather than be moved by the Darkness (the Gods)?