The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: Cüréthañ on July 31, 2014, 03:28:04 am
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*edit: Didn't mention in that I was speculating on what big questions would be answered in TUC. Bad cut and paste... Bit indistinct thread title too :p sorry
Moenghus asserts that the outside is a distorted reflection of the world.
In which case, perhaps we should be asking where the power of sorcery comes from.
If it doesn't exist in the world as created, then what are it's origins?
Likewise the gods and their immanence.
This question doesn't perturb Moe, so perhaps there is something obvious I am missing.
Second question.
During their confrontation, Psatma believes that Yatwer could take Meppa's soul.
Does this mean Meppa is damned so that she can intevene? Or that she could seize him if he were destined for oblivion/the solitary god.
The possibility becomes troubling when you consider that Yatwer's agency in AE is precipitated by Kellhus' "theft". The theft of souls. If she can take Meppa, what is happening to the souls of those that follow Kellhus that she cannot intervene?
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Possible answers:
1) Earwa created the outside, which created the metaphysical laws, which are then reverbed in Earwa. Escentially, Earwa created its own damnation, its own hell, its own magic, and ceded their own destinies to agencies they themselves created.
2) Gods can only seize souls that are either grasping for them or aiming for oblivion (not grasping towards any god). Meppa does not worship one of the 100, and can therefore be seized once dead. This is either because the Solitary god does not exist, or because it exists partially in all gods and therefore any of the 100 could seize him (since Yatwer is the most powerful, she gets first pick and/or wins in an open conflict with the others).
The theft of souls, meaning that there are now those who reach for Kellhus, can no longer be taken, which suggests Kellhus, or some agency that backs him, exists in the Outside already. The 101st.
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1) Yes, the reality of Earwa flows outside, but sorcery breaks natural laws and releases energy back into the real world and changes reality. I suspect the nonmen did something to 'break' the outside so they could use it as a weapon.
Akka describes the unmarred onta as "the un-created" somewhere, which is interesting of itself and might point to something different.
2) I think you're right and Yatwer's ability to throw individual souls into damnation might be unrelated to her adherents needing to 'reach' for her when they pass. However I'm willing to bet that the fate of Kellhus' followers in the afterlife is an important question that could be answered in TUC.
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The new title makes more sense now :P
The dunyain mystery cult! Their origins, their internal hierarchy, females, etc etc.
wtf is up with Wutteat. Space dragons sustained by internal topoi? Some light into that cave would be nice.
Inchoroi. History to present day goals. How did they become what they are.
Kellhus' goal. Kelmomas' voice.
Other misnc I'd like, maybe not in TUC but in an Atrocity Tale or the fabled Expanded Encyclopedia
Emwama's history and how they are/n't connected to humans.
Origin stories/myths of the Nonmen and humans.
Shamans in Eanna.
Witches.
Ancient sorceries.
Schoolmen before schools, ie. pre scholastic wars.
Cishaurim's history.
I guess generally I want more info on everything we have been given a hint of. I'm really hoping pre TSTSNBN we get some atrocity tales or some other such small collection of shorts.
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Ok so the main things I want answering:
More explanation on the metaphysical relationship between the Ground, the Outside, and the Void (I am not altogether convinced that the Void is specifically the Void of space, I think the Void is a mainifestation of subjective will who fulfills the wishes of his followers by destroying their souls).
I would like the nature of damnation and the mark explained.
I would like more exploration on the timelessness of the Gods and their metaphysical relationship to Earwa, with some more descriptions of how they perform "miracles" (someone called this Thaumaturgy which I suppose is as apt a description as any).
I would like more insight into the nature of the IF and if/how it relates to the Inchoroi species wide damnation (I expect that will be more likely answered in a short)
I would like more insight into the physical and metaphysical nature of the Inchoroi. Seems strange how they seem to have no difficulty staying Intact, I would really like an Inchoroi PoV.
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I would really like an Inchoroi PoV.
Haven't we had Aurang's POV since the first book?
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Hey FB,
Sorry should have been more clear. I want an Inchoroi PoV from a non Synthese Inchoroi.
I just get the feeling the Synthese dilutes the Inchie PoV somewhat.
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The big ones have already been mentioned.
Some more:
1. The Glossary refers to Cu'jara Cinmoi's wife, Hanalinqu, as "legendary." I'd like to know why.
2. "Xurjranc."
3. This entry from the Glossary: "Ginsil (2115-c. 2147)—The wife of General En-Kaujalau in The Sagas, who pretended to be her husband to fool the assassins coming to kill him." Any idea what this is about?
4. What is Ganrelka's relation to Celmomas, and who is the uncle who lead the assault on Golgotterath in the early days of the Apocalypse.
5. More on the Bardic priest.
6. According to Shaeonanra, Iëva worked with the Consult to "save her soul." Was she a Witch?
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Some thoughts for Feananra
#3 is interesting. Sounds like the wife sacrifised herself to save her husband. Was En-Kaujalau significant in some way? I think sacrificing oneself for another, in Earwa, is very important.
I don't think we'll learn more about the Bardic priest, at least not in TUC. Might be a story later on, but it doesn't seem important to the story at this point.
#6. Ieva looked into the IF and found herself damned, so she was working for the consult to help them with their plans. You don't have to be a sorcerer to be damned (proof from the fact that the Inchoroi developed the IF long before they went to Earwa). I don't think it likely that she was a witch.
I sense a pattern in those questions. I too would like to see the female characters to have some importance, but mainly because Bakker has insisted that it is so and I really haven't seen it yet.
I want to know why Serwa could have potentially been the most important character in the series.
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I don't think we'll learn more about the Bardic priest, at least not in TUC. Might be a story later on, but it doesn't seem important to the story at this point.
I've seen some speculation that he was connected to the Consult in some way, which I find possible... I'd like to know more about him in case that's true.
#6. Ieva looked into the IF and found herself damned, so she was working for the consult to help them with their plans. You don't have to be a sorcerer to be damned (proof from the fact that the Inchoroi developed the IF long before they went to Earwa). I don't think it likely that she was a witch.
That scene where she poisons NC, it says that he fell asleep but "impossibly" stayed awake. I know that this is explained later as Achamian witnessing the dream more than experiencing it through NC, but my first thoughts were that she used some spell to keep him awake but unable to move while she poisoned him. Very far-fetched though.
I want to know why Serwa could have potentially been the most important character in the series.
You mean Serwë? I've seen some very good posts on that subject recently... But you might not like where. ;)
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Wutteat perhaps isn't a Big Question, but I can't help but be amused at the thought of that big-arse immortal dragon flying around blind and deaf.
Also, Ieva had to have been corrupted. The Bardic Priest, with his whack eye seems pretty nefarious ... and he does pop up in Akka's dreams ...
We know there was treachery in Nimeric's court at Tryse as well.
It may be important that all non-inchie members of the consult are sorcerers. Remember the fate of Mekeritrig's (non-quya) companions who also looked into the IF?
Mek tricked Nil'Giccas into killing them, then bid his time for 2000 years until Shae helped him bring down the barricades.
The pre-sorcery inchies might be damned for neuro-tweaking away their compassion etc, if Kellhus is correct.
So I think the question of whether Ieva was a witch is a good one if she has looked into the IF, because it would clear up that question about sorcery and damnation a great deal for me.
W/regards to Serwe and gender issues, I believe that is already fairly plain if you look for it. Men have a higher spiritual value in Earwa. This isn't a good thing. All the agencies in the outside that vie for their souls are affiliated with damnation, ciphrang and the hundred gods (which are viewed by the inchies, the nonmen and the cishaurim as super powerful demons). Having a higher spiritual value just means you get are in fact more likely to become damned.
Bakker has been ramming us in the face with IMPORTANT female characters. But every one of them is an archetype that suffers at the hands of men; they are unambiguously female-only archetypes seen throughout all historical patriachal cultures. This is what has drawn the most criticism, as I see it. I don't think it is possible to make the statement that Bakker intends by using females that are merely adopting traditional male roles, at least not too early. (I'm somewhat expecting an ignoble ending for Serwa in TUC)
Serwe is so innocent she basically anoints Kellhus - and then her death breaks him.
Esmemnet's situation and potential are presented as the cause for Kellhus initiating changes to females' social status. She becomes the pre-eminent example of mobility and change within rigid caste structures. The foreshadowing is plain in PoN where we discover that Angreashal, the first 'great prophet' was married to Esmenet.
Mimara understands redemption implicitly via the judging eye, and I believe her character arc that most distinctly shows that females in Earwa are very important - even if they are valued less in the afterlife.
This is a theme that we see again and again - from the loss of the Cunoroi women, to Serwe's burning heart, to Esmenet being chosen to rule instead of Maitha. In every instance, the feminine is the key to redemption.
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I always forget which is which, Serwe/Serwa. I did indeed mean Serwe.
Anyway, I want real evidence that Serwe did something important, because at this point all we know for sure is that she was crazy, stupid, and obsessed with Kellhus like everyone else. I've read the arguments, and its all too vague and speculative. More important than Kellhus? Shea? Nil-Giccas? Moenghus? Sil? Esmenet? Mimara? Thousands of years of history and Serwe is the most important ... This is a claim that deserves some hard evidence, not just speculation, imo. Theres a better topic to discuss this elsewhere.
Sorry for the confusion Curethan, that sentence above really doesn't convey the message I intended. Certainly there are plenty of women that are important. I just wonder what makes Serwe the most important of all.
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I don't think he meant that she's the most important person in recorded history; only that she's very important to the plot of the first trilogy. More specifically, you could argue that she's the most important person Kellhus encounters on his journey to Shimeh (not that I necessarily agree). Anything beyond that is far fetched, IMO.
eta: Another question I hope is why Achamian was loath to relate the tale of Witch-King Su’juroit.
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I think that was was really just jealousy and fear. He didn't want Kellhus to achieve more than himself, and he was afraid of creating something the world have never seen. But on that note, it would be interesting to hear more of that story. The past in general would be great to have more information on, since everything is contingent on TDTCB.
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I have a nerdanel that there was something in Serwe's innocence that triggered Kell's 'divine' ascendance. She was the first to see his haloes, and Kell somehow manipulated the absolute purity of her belief and worship to expand it to other eyes, the 'truth' of her perception being adapted in the truths of other minds, establishing a firm foothold in the outside.
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I don't think he meant that she's the most important person in recorded history; only that she's very important to the plot of the first trilogy. More specifically, you could argue that she's the most important person Kellhus encounters on his journey to Shimeh (not that I necessarily agree). Anything beyond that is far fetched, IMO.
Indeed. I recall Bakker as saying she could be seen as the most important character in PoN, not the history of Earwa. :D
But my main thrust was to point out the ways in which Bakker's themes of gender can already be interpreted counter to the perceptions of those who see his patriarchal worldbuilding as some kind of unconscious misogynist wish fulfillment.
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The big ones - what is going to happen at Golgotterath? What's Kellhus' endgame? Is he divine? Who are the Dunyain?
I also want to know if Cnaiur is still alive, what exactly is the inverse fire, what about it would make Titirga so shook?
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I'm very interested in the origins of the Nonmen and how they relate to regular humans. I'm interested in the origins of Earwa in general, really. The lack of any creation myths in Inrithism and even the other big religions (Fanimry, Zeumi, Scylvendi) is ridiculously suspicious considering the nature of religion in the series.
In that vein, I'm most interested in learning more about the higher metaphysics of the Bakkerverse, namely the Hundred, Damnation, and stuff like the Psukhe, Inverse Fire, Judging Eye, etc.
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I'm sort of a broken record on this, but I'm invested in the idea that there's something much bigger going on with the Cishaurim and the Psukhe although at the same time I'm hardly sure that I'll be proven right about this. It just seems like they were fascinating if enigmatic in the first series then to be wiped out for the next phase and then to be reintroduced via one very enigmatic character in book 5. Hoping it's something.
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So it is with all speculation - always suspicious of our suspicions.
Was chatting on the quorum about something like this the other day.
I feel like the metaphysics of the afterlife and magic all proceed from a relatively small set of (unknown) principles - but as readers we only get small examples of quite specific and specialized circumstances derived from those ideas.
A couple of paragraphs here and there interpreted through our own preconceptions eventually begins to resonate with other remembered instances and when the way they relate clicks, then comes that weird sense of revelation. It's like reverse engineering from things you only get brief looks at from certain angles.
With a thing like the Psukhe, there's a clear relation to sorcery and less clear but still obvious relation to the question of the afterlife, thaumaturgy and religion. So in the sense of looking for common factors in the quest to understand the basic principles, it's definitely important and I genuinely expect Meppa to provide some good 'revelations' and major plot twists.
Perhaps the layers of revelation will accrete to a level in TUC where the basics are clear, but I kinda doubt that. As long as it amps it up on the same level as TTT I will be more than happy.
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Reminds of the the maths used to describe the orbits of celestial bodies around the Earth, when everyone knew that the Earth was the center of the universe. Very complex and convoluted, simplified when the frame shifted and the Earth was no longer the center.
Something similar is going to happen here, basic assumptions will be replace, or revealed enough to be puzzled out, so that when we you step back and consider it as a whole it makes sense.
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Heh, agree generally - but a bit trickier perhaps, as we're dealing with analogies and metaphors of action drawn from philosophical propositions.
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Thats the best I could do. I can only go so far into the philosophical realm
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My questions:
What is Kellhus' big mistake (foreshadowed by the unseen kicked skull at the end of TTT)?
Who is Aurax? I think Bakker's been using Aurang as a front to hoard secrets about Aurax. Aurax's story could be the lens for understanding the Inchoroi in general.
What's going on in Eanna/5th tribe?
What are the origin myths? This has been so hidden from the reader, it's got to be something good!
Who destroyed Ishual? Female Dunyains?
What the hell is Seswatha hiding from everyone?
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Here's just a laundry list, some of which have been mentioned. This is more a list of "what I'd like to see" rather than what I think we're guaranteed to get...some of this stuff we may never get:
-Meppa's story
-who destroyed Ishual
-whether Ishual has any connection to a Nonman mansion and if it matters
-a much bigger look at what remains of Nonman society than we've seen so far (this I am confident we'll get in the next book and I am excited)
-what is going on with Achamian's dreams...to what extent Seswatha or Kellhus is involved
-who is truly damned and why and whatnot (this is an area that while I expect to get something I worry we may not get everything)
-more on Fane and how the Psukhe was discovered and whether it was "divine" or more something mechanical that he just lucked into
-finally learning who/what the No-God is, finally
-If the Consult is planning anything different than the last time or if the plan this time is simply "raise No-God again, don't get shot by Heron Spear"
-more on Titirga and what was up with his different mark and regaining his sight
-what happens when a metagnostic Dunyain is taught the Daimos?
-more on whether Kellhus actually has already walked in the Outside
-what the Hell is up with Kelmomas...he obviously has a big role to play, but it's not very clear to me what
-a closer look at the inside of the Ark and the Consult's day-to-day operations
-did Inri really heal people and ascend?
-has Moenghus been playing a deeper game all along?
-is there more to the story of Moe's exile from Ishual?
-are the Dunyain all gone? have there been any more Dunyain in the story already like Saccarees?
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ooohh oohhh, i also want an explanation for kellhus' conversation with the sky at the end of TTT
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I think a lot of the damnation questions will be left open for discussion. As long as we are given enough connections to rule out some possibilities I'll be pretty happy. Knowing almost nothing for certain is just painful.