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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] The Thousandfold Thought & Kellhus
« on: July 13, 2016, 12:51:44 am »
It was also said to dull emotion, I think.
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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] I finished the book, confused about something.
« on: July 13, 2016, 12:50:41 am »
It seemed to me that as soon as Kelmomas cried mommy the WLW broke. He never saw Kelmomas in any of his visions at that point in time... so the causal stream he followed was contradicted... his reality became contradiction and it seemed to literally blow his mind, judging from the blood coming out of his ears.
My question to add to all of this is what was the point of telling us that Kelmomas and the WLW shared a dream of the WLW stabbing Kelmomas in the eye while he hid.
My question to add to all of this is what was the point of telling us that Kelmomas and the WLW shared a dream of the WLW stabbing Kelmomas in the eye while he hid.
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The Great Ordeal / [TGO Spoilers] The Thousandfold Thought & Kellhus
« on: July 13, 2016, 12:42:48 am »
This idea has been slowly coalescing as I've now spent the last couple days re-reading parts of TGO.
Koringhus provided me some hints as to the Dunyain method of thinking--baring themselves as a literal parallel processor, comparing and pruning possibilities... Thousands of simultaneous threads in operation built/selected for the purpose of efficient computation. This fact, considered alongside Kellhus' descriptions of the Thousandfold Thought as an entity somewhat independent of himself, but in some way reliant on him has led me to believe that the Thousandfold Thought is an AI program running on Dunyain hardware. Moenghus initially "developed" the AI--but it saw the opportunity to upgrade its hardware with the approach of Kellhus (although how it managed to transmit itself from one to the other is still a bit unclear--I'm currently leaning toward through the outside, however the Psukhe is another possibility).
This also led me to a somewhat novel reading on the passage about the Sons and the Outside from Kellhus' POV, where (as others have before theorized) the head on the pole is Onkis--goddess of the darkness that comes before... however the He and you are actually separate entities--He being Kellhus and you being the AI known as the Thousandfold Thought.
TGO p. 44-45
So in this case Kellhus is viewing the outside while processing the Thousandfold Thought--and it forces temporal circumstance upon the outside relative to Kellhus at the time and place of his exploration... and the inside-where-you-sit-now is quite literal, as Kellhus is quite literally the carrier of the Thousandfold Thought. Similarly, the Thousandfold Thought is without fear, for as an AI, it can have no fear.
It also seems to me that the head on the pole (referencing Onkis) could simply mean that Kellhus recognizes that he is still as ignorant of his origins as Koringhus also realizes later... and that the whole reference to the head on the pole is quite literally him using his ignorance as a way of ignoring damnation.
later:
TGO p. 49
Just a little more supporting evidence for a self-programming/self-replicating piece of code... something like an AI.
As an aside--did anyone notice that Kellhus and Proyas were drinking chanv-spiked wine during one of their conversations (page 122 of the US TGO release)? Does chanv in some way help mitigate the madness induced by eating Sranc?
Koringhus provided me some hints as to the Dunyain method of thinking--baring themselves as a literal parallel processor, comparing and pruning possibilities... Thousands of simultaneous threads in operation built/selected for the purpose of efficient computation. This fact, considered alongside Kellhus' descriptions of the Thousandfold Thought as an entity somewhat independent of himself, but in some way reliant on him has led me to believe that the Thousandfold Thought is an AI program running on Dunyain hardware. Moenghus initially "developed" the AI--but it saw the opportunity to upgrade its hardware with the approach of Kellhus (although how it managed to transmit itself from one to the other is still a bit unclear--I'm currently leaning toward through the outside, however the Psukhe is another possibility).
This also led me to a somewhat novel reading on the passage about the Sons and the Outside from Kellhus' POV, where (as others have before theorized) the head on the pole is Onkis--goddess of the darkness that comes before... however the He and you are actually separate entities--He being Kellhus and you being the AI known as the Thousandfold Thought.
Quote
He is here... with you... not so much inside me as speaking with your voice. [...] So he seizes the lake and the thousand babes and the void and the massing-descending Sons and the lamentations-that-are-honey, and he rips them about the pole, transforms here into here, this-place-inside-where-you-sit-now [...] You refuse to drip fear like honey--because you have no fear. Because you fear not damnation.
TGO p. 44-45
So in this case Kellhus is viewing the outside while processing the Thousandfold Thought--and it forces temporal circumstance upon the outside relative to Kellhus at the time and place of his exploration... and the inside-where-you-sit-now is quite literal, as Kellhus is quite literally the carrier of the Thousandfold Thought. Similarly, the Thousandfold Thought is without fear, for as an AI, it can have no fear.
It also seems to me that the head on the pole (referencing Onkis) could simply mean that Kellhus recognizes that he is still as ignorant of his origins as Koringhus also realizes later... and that the whole reference to the head on the pole is quite literally him using his ignorance as a way of ignoring damnation.
later:
Quote
This was what his father's Thousandfold Thought had made. [...] A pattern conquering patterns, reproducing on the scales of both insects and heavens; heartbeats, and ages. All bound upon him, Anasurimbur Kellhus. [...] He was as much a creature of the Thought as it was a creature of him.
TGO p. 49
Just a little more supporting evidence for a self-programming/self-replicating piece of code... something like an AI.
As an aside--did anyone notice that Kellhus and Proyas were drinking chanv-spiked wine during one of their conversations (page 122 of the US TGO release)? Does chanv in some way help mitigate the madness induced by eating Sranc?
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General Earwa / Re: Oblivion, Damnation, Redemption
« on: June 17, 2016, 05:47:45 pm »
Perhaps a pool of 144,000 shrieking souls--that is then sealed off from the outside. The 144,000 least redeemable individuals. Perhaps the process begins anew somewhere else.... Who knows? I'm just grasping at straws with little actual textual proof.
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General Earwa / Oblivion, Damnation, Redemption
« on: June 15, 2016, 04:53:32 pm »
I was just re-reading Bakker's posts on the old three-seas forum, and had something of a revelation. Perhaps this has already been discussed and I missed it--but as Bakker puts it:
[...] Given this overarching indeterminacy, there's three basic options: Oblivion, Damnation, or Redemption. [with regards to souls in Earwa]
When people are reborn, their souls most likely come from some pool in the outside--the real question is whence comes this pool? If it is a closed system of souls, the only pool to draw from to bring souls back into the world is that of damnation. Those who are redeemed or have achieved oblivion must necessarily have escaped the strictures of the system--leaving only the pool of the damned in play. That would be the ultimate in massive cruelty--everyone in Earwa is born damned, and if they do nothing to redeem themselves or avoid the notice of the gods, they just go right back into the pool for another round of damnation. Earwa itself is a place for the damned (hell) and the 100 are just the prison guards (those in charge of administering punishment) in this scenario.
[...] Given this overarching indeterminacy, there's three basic options: Oblivion, Damnation, or Redemption. [with regards to souls in Earwa]
When people are reborn, their souls most likely come from some pool in the outside--the real question is whence comes this pool? If it is a closed system of souls, the only pool to draw from to bring souls back into the world is that of damnation. Those who are redeemed or have achieved oblivion must necessarily have escaped the strictures of the system--leaving only the pool of the damned in play. That would be the ultimate in massive cruelty--everyone in Earwa is born damned, and if they do nothing to redeem themselves or avoid the notice of the gods, they just go right back into the pool for another round of damnation. Earwa itself is a place for the damned (hell) and the 100 are just the prison guards (those in charge of administering punishment) in this scenario.
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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Excerpt Spoilers] The Great Ordeal ARC Giveaway
« on: June 08, 2016, 10:14:19 pm »
Prediction: We will learn further tenets of Dunyain philosophy re: the Logos.
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The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Excerpt Spoilers] The Great Ordeal ARC Giveaway
« on: June 08, 2016, 04:48:44 pm »
Prediction: Khellus will seal the world to the 100 specifically by sacrificing his nation to the Zeumi and the Fanim as a bloodletting of those who remain faithful to the 100. The rest of those faithful will be either turned or eliminated on the march of the Great Ordeal.
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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: How to kill a No-God without a Heron Spear?
« on: April 01, 2016, 06:05:24 pm »
Hey All--I've been a long time lurker both here and at the asoiaf forum... I don't know if this has been discussed before--certainly not that I've seen. As this is at least tangentially related to the discussion of Kellhus reconstructing the heron spear, it seemed as appropriate a place to put it as any...
Do we know what the technological sophistication of the Dunyain actually is? During one of the flashback scenes I seem to recall that Kellhus thinks to himself that the Neuropuncture technique that allows the Dunyain failures to retain some use (in the face room) was developed something like 300 years before. If that is the case, then it demonstrates a similar level of medical know-how to modern medicine ~300 years prior to the events of the second apocalypse.
Also, given what we know of his training in logic--I strongly suspect that the Dunyain are technologically far more sohisticated than we have yet been shown. This seems likely to be by design as well--if these are analogues to the first and second foundation. Additionally, wouldn't the "mundane" development of non-sorcerous weapons be best achieved by those who operate in the absence of sorcery. Perhaps that's why the Dunyain chiseled the runes off the walls... Just a thought.
Do we know what the technological sophistication of the Dunyain actually is? During one of the flashback scenes I seem to recall that Kellhus thinks to himself that the Neuropuncture technique that allows the Dunyain failures to retain some use (in the face room) was developed something like 300 years before. If that is the case, then it demonstrates a similar level of medical know-how to modern medicine ~300 years prior to the events of the second apocalypse.
Also, given what we know of his training in logic--I strongly suspect that the Dunyain are technologically far more sohisticated than we have yet been shown. This seems likely to be by design as well--if these are analogues to the first and second foundation. Additionally, wouldn't the "mundane" development of non-sorcerous weapons be best achieved by those who operate in the absence of sorcery. Perhaps that's why the Dunyain chiseled the runes off the walls... Just a thought.
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