The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: The2ndUtteralString on December 05, 2013, 01:49:24 am

Title: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: The2ndUtteralString on December 05, 2013, 01:49:24 am
"Henceforth, our very foe shall sustain us..."
The dread command had been given, at long last.
"Henceforth, we eat Sranc."


Many have already begun to speculate on what this might do to the Great Ordeal:
In the case of Sranc though, I really feel like that's going to have some horrible, grotesque negative effect in the long run. Eating Srancflesh is just way too freaking ominous. Maybe it will almost be like crack to the Nonman's cocaine?
Um... Huge +1.
Quote from: bbaztek
This is fun. Now with half-baked plot speculation!
....Ch. 2 - Aorsi (zsoronga, proyas, kayutas) - first effects of eating sranc,


So what do you guys think the effect will be?
My guesses:
-Kellhus already knows what will happen when the flesh of Sranc is eaten; all is premeditated with the Dûnyain. He will abstain from eating it himself.
-It will be a stimulant like Qirri.
-It will be revolting at first but ultimately prove addictive.
-It will cause irreparable harm to the mind and body. (Perhaps even the soul?)
-It will slowly cause those consuming it to feel the violent/rabid "Sranc-lust". (In true Bakker style, there will be some description of this abhorrent change using the word "phallus").

Any thoughts, serious or silly?
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on December 05, 2013, 02:06:49 am
Something that has been thrown around for a while is that people have been eating sranc all along, in the form of the mysterious drug that the Scarlet Spire seems to love. Though its name escapes me for now.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: The2ndUtteralString on December 05, 2013, 04:39:28 am
Something that has been thrown around for a while is that people have been eating sranc all along, in the form of the mysterious drug that the Scarlet Spire seems to love. Though its name escapes me for now.
Chanv coming from Sranc? Iyokus consuming it for all these long years? Interesting theory.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Francis Buck on December 05, 2013, 04:57:55 am
I think sranc will be like crack to the nonman's coke. Stronger, doesn't last as long, and much more adverse effects.

I don't think chanv is sranc though. Chanv is rare, expensive, and mysterious even to those who take it. My money is on sorcerer salt. That would be rare, difficult to acquire, and thus worthy of the price. Plus we have the not so subtle scene  at the end of TTT, where the boy is collecting a bit of the salt "that would be his fortune". Sranc, on the other hand, are ridiculously abundant in the north, and people hunt them all the time. If that was the source of chances then there's no reason for it to be so scarce, nor so expensive.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on December 05, 2013, 11:49:37 am
So what do you guys think the effect will be?
My guesses:
-Kellhus already knows what will happen when the flesh of Sranc is eaten; all is premeditated with the Dûnyain. He will abstain from eating it himself.
-It will be a stimulant like Qirri.
-It will be revolting at first but ultimately prove addictive.
-It will cause irreparable harm to the mind and body. (Perhaps even the soul?)
-It will slowly cause those consuming it to feel the violent/rabit "Sranc-lust". (In true Bakker style, there will be some description of this abhorrent change using the word "phallus").

- Yeah, Kellhus won't eat it, though getting around this might be difficult if he remains with the Ordeal. I can easily see Kellhus having fed Sranc to people. Maybe Kelmomas finds Zombies in cages in the Labyrinth from Kellhus' experiments.
- It could be anything but I also think it will resemble Qirri as Sranc are bastardizations of Nonmen.
- Check.
- Check (for whatever reason this reminds me of Krokodil; drug that causes strange skin deformity and decay).
- Yeah, I can easily see Bakker highlighting the further resemblance between Men and Sranc.

Quote
Something that has been thrown around for a while is that people have been eating sranc all along, in the form of the mysterious drug that the Scarlet Spire seems to love. Though its name escapes me for now.
Chanv coming from Sranc? Iyokus consuming it for all these long years? Interesting theory.

I think sranc will be like crack to the nonman's coke. Stronger, doesn't last as long, and much more adverse effects.

I don't think chanv is sranc though. Chanv is rare, expensive, and mysterious even to those who take it. My money is on sorcerer salt. That would be rare, difficult to acquire, and thus worthy of the price. Plus we have the not so subtle scene  at the end of TTT, where the boy is collecting a bit of the salt "that would be his fortune". Sranc, on the other hand, are ridiculously abundant in the north, and people hunt them all the time. If that was the source of chances then there's no reason for it to be so scarce, nor so expensive.

Yeah, I don't think Chanv is Sranc or Salted Sorcerer, strictly for the translucent skin commentary. If the Inchoroi were using the original Chanv for themselves then it precedes Sranc and Sorcery.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Francis Buck on December 05, 2013, 05:40:38 pm
Well, not necessarily. Our earliest description of the Inchoroi, to my knowledge, is TFS, by which time they might've discovered the advantageous effects of sorceror salt -- and been using it -- for millennia.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wic on December 05, 2013, 07:02:48 pm
Serious: I think it's going to have some profound effects on their minds and souls.  Nightmares of the No-God, uncontrollable emotional states, psychosis.

Silly: Mass priapisms and diarrhea with eyes in it. :P
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on December 06, 2013, 11:50:18 am
Well, not necessarily. Our earliest description of the Inchoroi, to my knowledge, is TFS, by which time they might've discovered the advantageous effects of sorceror salt -- and been using it -- for millennia.

Truth.

Hrm.

Serious: I think it's going to have some profound effects on their minds and souls.  Nightmares of the No-God, uncontrollable emotional states, psychosis.

Silly: Mass priapisms and diarrhea with eyes in it. :P

Lol.

A thought:

Depending on the practice of Qirri eating among the Nonmen, Qirri is either a byproduct of Nonmen genetics or the Tekne. If eating burnt Nonmen was a practice before the Womb Plague, we can assume the former.

Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 07, 2013, 02:19:29 am
On Qirri.
It is residue from burnt Nonmen. 
(click to show/hide)

Therefore probably not common practice.

Depending on whether CC was quya, qirri might only result from burned quya.
Which would lend credence to the idea of chanv coming from sorcerers.  Perhaps it is burned witches' ashes.

So can we really expect qirri like effects from eating sranc?
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on December 07, 2013, 01:03:17 pm
We know from WLW though that "'Not all of my kind are buried... Some, the greatest, we burn like you'" (p487).
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Francis Buck on December 07, 2013, 07:09:52 pm
On Qirri.
It is residue from burnt Nonmen. 
(click to show/hide)

Therefore probably not common practice.

Depending on whether CC was quya, qirri might only result from burned quya.
Which would lend credence to the idea of chanv coming from sorcerers.  Perhaps it is burned witches' ashes.

So can we really expect qirri like effects from eating sranc?

Yeah, this was something I mentioned on Westeros. I wondered if any of the Nonmen that qirri was made from were not sorcerers. If they were all sorcerers, then I think the fact that it comes from Nonmen is in fact a red herring -- it's the sorcerous nature of the Few that gives qirri (and thus chanv) its properties, and has nothing to do with the Nonmen themselves.

In which case you're correct in wondering what effects eating sranc will have, since the connection to qirri is lost.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Triskele on December 07, 2013, 09:39:04 pm
I think it would be kind of amazing if eating sranc had the effect of making men more sranc-like in that they might become blood-crazed for their enemy the way that the sranc are for them.  Heh, it would be like Kellhus turned the men of the Ordeal into a weapons race of his own.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Callan S. on December 07, 2013, 11:47:11 pm
Thing is, sranc eating would have happened in prior history (well before Kellhus turned up). It's just going to happen, with the various random food shortages on Earwa.

But weve been given no history of it.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on December 07, 2013, 11:49:59 pm
Thing is, sranc eating would have happened in prior history (well before Kellhus turned up). It's just going to happen, with the various random food shortages on Earwa.

But weve been given no history of it.
Earwa is a superstitious place, probably for good reason. I wouldn't be too surprised if people would rather starve to death rather than eat sranc without someone like Kellhus telling them to do it.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Callan S. on December 07, 2013, 11:50:55 pm
Thing is, sranc eating would have happened in prior history (well before Kellhus turned up). It's just going to happen, with the various random food shortages on Earwa.

But weve been given no history of it.
Earwa is a superstitious place, probably for good reason. I wouldn't be too surprised if people would rather starve to death rather than eat sranc without someone like Kellhus telling them to do it.
Rather eat ones own children than eat sranc?
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 07, 2013, 11:54:29 pm
I'm really starting to doubt that eating Sranc would have any effects similar to qirri (whether it comes from quya or not), because Sranc have no souls. 
Therefore they can't affect your metaphysical state. 

Evidence:
There is that scene where Sorweel tells the scions that it is fine to do whatever they like to the captured sranc.

Edit*  Callan, I would rather starve to death than eat my own children.  Not a religious thing, more like a biological taboo that.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on December 08, 2013, 12:04:37 am
I'm really starting to doubt that eating Sranc would have any effects similar to qirri (whether it comes from quya or not), because Sranc have no souls. 
Therefore they can't affect your metaphysical state. 

Evidence:
There is that scene where Sorweel tells the scions that it is fine to do whatever they like to the captured sranc.

Edit*  Callan, I would rather starve to death than eat my own children.  Not a religious thing, more like a biological taboo that.
Thing is, sranc eating would have happened in prior history (well before Kellhus turned up). It's just going to happen, with the various random food shortages on Earwa.

But weve been given no history of it.
Earwa is a superstitious place, probably for good reason. I wouldn't be too surprised if people would rather starve to death rather than eat sranc without someone like Kellhus telling them to do it.
Rather eat ones own children than eat sranc?
Yes. I'd imagine some people are religious enough to starve to death when surrounded by pigs or cows. Why is it a difficult extension to believe that in Earwa sranc are so unholy that death would be preferable?
Though I'm not really sure why you brought that up. I'm sure you can find a story about it on the internet, but I doubt its a widespread thing...


I'm really starting to doubt that eating Sranc would have any effects similar to qirri (whether it comes from quya or not), because Sranc have no souls. 
Therefore they can't affect your metaphysical state. 

Evidence:
There is that scene where Sorweel tells the scions that it is fine to do whatever they like to the captured sranc.

Edit*  Callan, I would rather starve to death than eat my own children.  Not a religious thing, more like a biological taboo that.
I recently starting thinking this same thing. The fact that they don't have souls before they die is probably important. However, I think its possible that the Inchoroi weaved in some bad genetic juju that was originally meant to effect Nonmen if eaten, and by extension could cause some weird things to happen.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 08, 2013, 12:32:34 am
Boycott G.M. Sranc!  We don't know what it is doing to our bodies!  These things should be labeled, goddamnit!
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Callan S. on December 08, 2013, 05:19:44 am
I'm really starting to doubt that eating Sranc would have any effects similar to qirri (whether it comes from quya or not), because Sranc have no souls. 
Therefore they can't affect your metaphysical state. 

Evidence:
There is that scene where Sorweel tells the scions that it is fine to do whatever they like to the captured sranc.

Edit*  Callan, I would rather starve to death than eat my own children.  Not a religious thing, more like a biological taboo that.
Thing is, sranc eating would have happened in prior history (well before Kellhus turned up). It's just going to happen, with the various random food shortages on Earwa.

But weve been given no history of it.
Earwa is a superstitious place, probably for good reason. I wouldn't be too surprised if people would rather starve to death rather than eat sranc without someone like Kellhus telling them to do it.
Rather eat ones own children than eat sranc?
Yes. I'd imagine some people are religious enough to starve to death when surrounded by pigs or cows. Why is it a difficult extension to believe that in Earwa sranc are so unholy that death would be preferable?
Though I'm not really sure why you brought that up. I'm sure you can find a story about it on the internet, but I doubt its a widespread thing...
Webs got weird shit (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2010/06/23/a-question-of-character/) on it
Quote
Tell people stories about parents eating their children during ancient sieges and they think, What the fuck is wrong with those people? Those people. Not us people. Those.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on December 08, 2013, 02:26:43 pm
I'm really starting to doubt that eating Sranc would have any effects similar to qirri (whether it comes from quya or not), because Sranc have no souls. 
Therefore they can't affect your metaphysical state. 

This is assuming that eating Qirri affects because of ensoulled properties?

I recently starting thinking this same thing. The fact that they don't have souls before they die is probably important. However, I think its possible that the Inchoroi weaved in some bad genetic juju that was originally meant to effect Nonmen if eaten, and by extension could cause some weird things to happen.

This, again, all depends on whether or not the practice of Qirri eating precedes the Fall.

Webs got weird shit (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2010/06/23/a-question-of-character/) on it
Quote
Tell people stories about parents eating their children during ancient sieges and they think, What the fuck is wrong with those people? Those people. Not us people. Those.

Funnily enough, that is the first time I posted on TPB.

Hilar-lar. That person and I are separated by such a chasm of experience.

But Callan, maybe you could have found the instances Bakker is referring to rather than just taking the man at his word. Even Bakker is fallible (I actually don't doubt that people did this, I just prefer evidence). For instance, a cursory internet search shows passages concerning cannibalism and sieges from the Bible, Leningrad, Samaria, etc (I simply searched for "sieges where people ate their children" ...)

I actually happen to agree with Wilshire and you, however. It is highly unlikely that people would eat Sranc but, as you wrote, in the most desperate of situations there must be historical precedent.

EDIT: However, that's never stopped Bakker from omitting that history until "eating Sranc was a taboo for good reasons. Proyas thought back to instances during antique history, where X, X, and X had all succumbed to eating the flesh of their unholy enemy.

And madness came swirling down."

;).
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 09, 2013, 12:11:41 am
This is assuming that eating Qirri affects because of ensoulled properties?

Yep.  Check the difference in 'taste' between CC and NG. 

"The strength that shivers through them has a more melancholy tenor."

All other magic (aside from the Tekne) hinges on the soul, and Qirri seems pretty magical stuff. 
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on December 09, 2013, 02:40:53 pm
If I hadn't done and studied many drugs in my life, I might agree, Curethan. Even still, based on the prevalence of sorcery and the ensoulled, you could be right but I don't think we have enough information to go on and I'm inclined to posit mundane mechanism before metaphysical, in this case.

Personally, I find far too many theories hinge on Chanv being Salt of the Few. I realize Occam's doesn't apply in Earwa (in fact, it seems very much the opposite) but it seems easier, for me, to assume that Earwan drugs operate by mundane mechanism over metaphysical.

For instance, where is the textual evidence that Qirri or Chanv affect a person's soul? I don't think Curethan's aforementioned quote implies anything magical at all but I might be alone here...
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Borric on December 09, 2013, 06:23:45 pm
Iyokus was addicted to Chanv, the drug that held a greater part of the Ainoni ruling castes within its clasp- except, and this thought often surprised Eleazaras, for Chepheramunni, the latest puppet they had installed on the Ainoni throne.

It seems Skin spies consider it none to healthy.
(Even though it seems to be the norm)


Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on December 09, 2013, 06:47:58 pm
It seems to me that either the skin-spy didn't partake, didn't have time to get addicted, or was unable to become addicted. If the skin-spy couldn't get addicted, it could be for a number of reason, both physical and mundane or metaphysical. i.e. The consult made the spies immune, or the spies have no souls so they aren't affected.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 09, 2013, 10:25:07 pm
Perhaps my impression of 'magical' comes more from qirri's ability to provide actual energy and sustenance.  With mundane drugs, only the illusion of these things can be provided.

Side note: Akka's POV bangs on about how it makes you 'feel' like a nonman (not that he makes that conscious connection), but only Mimara puts that 'empathy' to use.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Francis Buck on December 09, 2013, 11:17:20 pm
Perhaps my impression of 'magical' comes more from qirri's ability to provide actual energy and sustenance.  With mundane drugs, only the illusion of these things can be provided.

Side note: Akka's POV bangs on about how it makes you 'feel' like a nonman (not that he makes that conscious connection), but only Mimara puts that 'empathy' to use.

I agree with the magical thing. Qirri does not seem, to me, at all like something that can operate on "mundane" physics. I think that whatever it is, it's affecting people's souls.

Here's an idea: Let's assume that qirri is indeed powerful due to the fact that it came from a Nonman, and not a sorceror (though I still lean more towards the latter). Perhaps the only reason the ashes of Nonmen are powerful, and have life-extending properties, is because of whatever the Inchoroi did to the Nonmen to make them immortal in the first place? Perhaps there's some residue of that in their ashes (whatever the hell that is...I suppose we don't know if the Nonmen's immortality was composed purely from the Tekne? I suppose it was early enough in history that the Inchoroi might not have yet unlocked any secrets of the arcane).
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 09, 2013, 11:47:18 pm
Supposing for a moment that the cadaver's link to a soul is more important that the cadaver's link to sorcery;
Do you think  Kelmomas' spontaneous canabalism might be important to this discussion (he can steal as much food as he needs otherwise)?

Crackpot - Maybe eating Sranc will link the men of the ordeal to the no-god somehow - seeing as Mog how can 'possess' Sranc.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on December 10, 2013, 12:25:50 pm
Quote
It seems Skin spies consider it none to healthy.
(Even though it seems to be the norm)

It seems to me that either the skin-spy didn't partake, didn't have time to get addicted, or was unable to become addicted. If the skin-spy couldn't get addicted, it could be for a number of reason, both physical and mundane or metaphysical. i.e. The consult made the spies immune, or the spies have no souls so they aren't affected.

Perhaps my impression of 'magical' comes more from qirri's ability to provide actual energy and sustenance.  With mundane drugs, only the illusion of these things can be provided.

Borric's and the bolded is what I'm riffing off.  The skin-spy Bios and the creatures of the Tekne are limited. They are don't have the complex nervous systems we do. They may simply not have the receptors necessary to interact with Qirri or Chanv and so the drugs would be inert. Apparently, Chepherammuni was given the freedom to not do Chanv and they never grilled him on it.

Also, Curethan, real drugs can cause subtle changes in receptor activity in the brain, which do allow beyond an illusion energy and sustenance. But they do so by using up the mortal form faster, neh?

In two simple examples, this involves changing the brain to expect more or less of a certain kind of neurotransmitter at different locations in the brain. In one case, neuronal firing (or inhibition) can move well beyond baseline activity, following which, when you stop introducing regular doses of the exogenous drug (produced outside of the body), comes a crash from the receptor expectation (up/down regulation), when the brain can't meet the demand with its natural production of the same or similar neurotransmitters of the drug. Or drugs can inhibit certain post-synaptic receptor activity, which in so many words would normally communicate to the pre-synaptic terminal to stop sending the neurotransmitter over, and so the brain is tricked into simply using up its surplus of certain neurotransmitters. In both cases, this can also be why it takes more and more of a dosage to the same effect.

Side note: Akka's POV bangs on about how it makes you 'feel' like a nonman (not that he makes that conscious connection), but only Mimara puts that 'empathy' to use.

Notation please :). I'd like to read the passages that instill these thoughts.

Here's an idea: Let's assume that qirri is indeed powerful due to the fact that it came from a Nonman, and not a sorceror (though I still lean more towards the latter). Perhaps the only reason the ashes of Nonmen are powerful, and have life-extending properties, is because of whatever the Inchoroi did to the Nonmen to make them immortal in the first place? Perhaps there's some residue of that in their ashes (whatever the hell that is...I suppose we don't know if the Nonmen's immortality was composed purely from the Tekne? I suppose it was early enough in history that the Inchoroi might not have yet unlocked any secrets of the arcane).

Lol - or is it because of something already in the Nonman Bios? This is what I've been asking all along.

Which again, brings up the question of if the practice of burning Nonmen and eating Qirri precedes the Fall. From my aforementioned quote, a number of posts back, I'd argue because Nil'giccas says they "burn their greatest" that it precedes the Fall... but again, been hoping for answers for awhile.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 11, 2013, 02:16:22 am
Borric's and the bolded is what I'm riffing off.  The skin-spy Bios and the creatures of the Tekne are limited. They are don't have the complex nervous systems we do. They may simply not have the receptors necessary to interact with Qirri or Chanv and so the drugs would be inert. Apparently, Chepherammuni was given the freedom to not do Chanv and they never grilled him on it.
The skinspy tells Mimarra Cleric is killing them and the qirri is part of that.
Also, Curethan, real drugs can cause subtle changes in receptor activity in the brain, which do allow beyond an illusion energy and sustenance. But they do so by using up the mortal form faster, neh?

That is the illusion I'm talking about.  Example; using the qirri at the bottom of the medial screw.  If you are exhausted and wounded to the point where you are falling unconcious like Akka and you take some stimulant which allows you to run up stairs - you are not going to recover from that by having more. 

The skin eaters are surviving for months on a below subsistence diet and qirri whilst pursued by sranc and expending a lot more energy than is feasible.  By comparison, the stone hags (who are denied the qirri) die.  Except Koll, but he isn't human.  Using drugs to sustain superhuman effort whilst starving results in death fairly quickly.

Magic in Earwa produces energy from where-ever.  It's the simplest explanation.  But you know, maybe they are getting it from endless fat reserves or super effective vitamins hidden in ash  ::)

Notation please :). I'd like to read the passages that instill these thoughts.
My inference - from Akka and Mimarra's POV's.  Not a relevatory sentence or phrase.
Akka catalogues the changes in his perspective that reflect the experience of a long lived soul.  But, as usual, he doesn't consider what that means.

Mimarra doesn't use the JE to get inside Cleric's head.  The more she uses qirri, the more she is able to manipulate him.  She shaves her hair to seduce Cleric without even thinking about it.
She teases his old identity and the origin of qirri from him.

Anyway, it fits with Cleric's objective - he wants them to be more like the nonmen he once knew so that he can remember when he kills them.  That's why he forces it on them.

Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Francis Buck on December 11, 2013, 02:45:50 am
Borric's and the bolded is what I'm riffing off.  The skin-spy Bios and the creatures of the Tekne are limited. They are don't have the complex nervous systems we do. They may simply not have the receptors necessary to interact with Qirri or Chanv and so the drugs would be inert. Apparently, Chepherammuni was given the freedom to not do Chanv and they never grilled him on it.
The skinspy tells Mimarra Cleric is killing them and the qirri is part of that.
Also, Curethan, real drugs can cause subtle changes in receptor activity in the brain, which do allow beyond an illusion energy and sustenance. But they do so by using up the mortal form faster, neh?

That is the illusion I'm talking about.  Example; using the qirri at the bottom of the medial screw.  If you are exhausted and wounded to the point where you are falling unconcious like Akka and you take some stimulant which allows you to run up stairs - you are not going to recover from that by having more. 

The skin eaters are surviving for months on a below subsistence diet and qirri whilst pursued by sranc and expending a lot more energy than is feasible.  By comparison, the stone hags (who are denied the qirri) die.  Except Koll, but he isn't human.  Using drugs to sustain superhuman effort whilst starving results in death fairly quickly.

Magic in Earwa produces energy from where-ever.  It's the simplest explanation.  But you know, maybe they are getting it from endless fat reserves or super effective vitamins hidden in ash  ::)

Notation please :). I'd like to read the passages that instill these thoughts.
My inference - from Akka and Mimarra's POV's.  Not a relevatory sentence or phrase.
Akka catalogues the changes in his perspective that reflect the experience of a long lived soul.  But, as usual, he doesn't consider what that means.

Mimarra doesn't use the JE to get inside Cleric's head.  The more she uses qirri, the more she is able to manipulate him.  She shaves her hair to seduce Cleric without even thinking about it.
She teases his old identity and the origin of qirri from him.

Anyway, it fits with Cleric's objective - he wants them to be more like the nonmen he once knew so that he can remember when he kills them.  That's why he forces it on them.

Really liking this line of thought, Curethan. Especially because I think it fits into the idea of qirri (and chanv) being the result or sorcerous ashes, rather than anything special to the Nonmen. Perhaps, when a sorceror is "Choraed", it's his physical body that's incinerated, while the salt is the residue of his soul. Burning a Nonman (and, presumably a human), yields the same thing -- the body is gone, but the ashes that remain are infused with the soul residue.

The ability to grasp the onta is genetic afterall.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 11, 2013, 05:07:22 am
In my mind, everything in Earwa has magical properties to some extent.  Faces form out of the ground and talk, sorcerers walk on the echo of the earth, cish use snakes to see, Yatwer uses storks etc etc. 
It only takes the presence of some kind of soul/animus to disrupt the causal flow. 
Sorcerers are just very good at it.

Sranc, otoh, have no connection to the ground.  E.g. the gods see them as lies.  The question with eating them is, to me, a mundane one.  Does eating them infect you with the tekne?
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on December 11, 2013, 02:05:41 pm
The skinspy tells Mimarra Cleric is killing them and the qirri is part of that.

The skin-spy could be lying. We only know for sure that it wanted Mimara's Chorae and that it thought it could defeat Nil'giccas in a mundane (still would have been epic) fight to the death with nimil vs. iron and Chorae. And that it wanted to accomplish killing Nil'giccas for the purposes of protecting a pregnant Mimara; Aurang indicates that this is the final variable that definitively safeguards her life.

That is the illusion I'm talking about.  Example; using the qirri at the bottom of the medial screw.  If you are exhausted and wounded to the point where you are falling unconcious like Akka and you take some stimulant which allows you to run up stairs - you are not going to recover from that by having more. 

The skin eaters are surviving for months on a below subsistence diet and qirri whilst pursued by sranc and expending a lot more energy than is feasible.  By comparison, the stone hags (who are denied the qirri) die.  Except Koll, but he isn't human.  Using drugs to sustain superhuman effort whilst starving results in death fairly quickly.

Magic in Earwa produces energy from where-ever.  It's the simplest explanation.  But you know, maybe they are getting it from endless fat reserves or super effective vitamins hidden in ash  ::)

Lmao... no sarcasm, I truly appreciate the fact that only here could you actually suggest the bold in seriousness against the premise of your position, being the existence of sorcery  ;).

However, you've got to put it into perspective. They've only been at this for months and they haven't been not eating, just eating a lot less. They did eat semi-regularly and are still dining on anything they can find (up to and including raw meat in the Interlude at the end of WLW). They might have enjoyed years of longer life should they not have partaken in this drug or this journey and they're doing themselves damage by sustaining the Qirri habit this long.

Also, consider if Chanv is a product of the Tekne rather than sorcery; the Tekne is an advanced system of technology to which we've attributed all sorts of advances in chemical and biological engineering. Certainly, I can stretch what is known today to seemingly "magical" progress in these fields, can't I? If not sorcery, then the division between Qirri eating before or after the Fall can provide a big clue as to whether it is the Tekne manipulations of the Nonmen that make a drug of their ashes.

Notation please :). I'd like to read the passages that instill these thoughts.
My inference - from Akka and Mimarra's POV's.  Not a relevatory sentence or phrase.
Akka catalogues the changes in his perspective that reflect the experience of a long lived soul.  But, as usual, he doesn't consider what that means.

Mimarra doesn't use the JE to get inside Cleric's head.  The more she uses qirri, the more she is able to manipulate him.  She shaves her hair to seduce Cleric without even thinking about it.
She teases his old identity and the origin of qirri from him.

Anyway, it fits with Cleric's objective - he wants them to be more like the nonmen he once knew so that he can remember when he kills them.  That's why he forces it on them.

I actually like this conception very much, except one contention.

(click to show/hide)

However, my contention is Mimara's decision to shave her head:

Quote from: WLW, p287
Then, in the empty interval between breaths, the Judging Eye opens.

For a time she gazes in stupefaction, then she weeps at the transformation.

Her hair cropped penitent short. Her clothing fine, but with the smell of borrowed things. Her belly low and heavy with child...

And a halo about her head, bright and silver and so very holy. The encircling waters darken for its glow.

She convulses about breathless sobs, falls clutching to her knees for anguish...

For she sees that she is good - and this she cannot bear.

My bold, original italics. Obviously, we can take stabs at the ambiguity of penitent but it's not until p660 that she shaves her head.

In my mind, everything in Earwa has magical properties to some extent.  Faces form out of the ground and talk, sorcerers walk on the echo of the earth, cish use snakes to see, Yatwer uses storks etc etc. 
It only takes the presence of some kind of soul/animus to disrupt the causal flow. 
Sorcerers are just very good at it.

Sranc, otoh, have no connection to the ground.  E.g. the gods see them as lies.  The question with eating them is, to me, a mundane one.  Does eating them infect you with the tekne?

Minus the Cishaurim and the snakes and sorcerers walking, we actually don't know that Yatwer's powers aren't active on a different frequency, so to say; I think this is the distinction that's long floated round here between thaumaturgy and sorcery.

Again though, this reads to me like an attempt to simply not hazard my question. Sorcerous or otherwise, do either of you think that Qirri eating precedes the coming of the Inchoroi?
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Garet Jax on December 11, 2013, 04:04:11 pm
Again though, this reads to me like an attempt to simply not hazard my question. Sorcerous or otherwise, do either of you think that Qirri eating precedes the coming of the Inchoroi?

I have been of the mindset that the Dunyain were founded, and possibly sustained, while eating Qirri.  But I haven't been able to make a coherent thesis about it.  Or, for that matter, figure out how that would fit into any timeline, other than it would be after The Fall.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Ishammael on December 11, 2013, 05:54:02 pm

Really liking this line of thought, Curethan. Especially because I think it fits into the idea of qirri (and chanv) being the result or sorcerous ashes, rather than anything special to the Nonmen. Perhaps, when a sorceror is "Choraed", it's his physical body that's incinerated, while the salt is the residue of his soul. Burning a Nonman (and, presumably a human), yields the same thing -- the body is gone, but the ashes that remain are infused with the soul residue.

The ability to grasp the onta is genetic afterall.

So, Chanv is the result of "Choared" corpses and Qirri the result of burned ashes? 
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: locke on December 11, 2013, 06:03:23 pm
aren't Kellhus' haloes golden?

Would it indicate his falseness that the judging eye sees silver halos around Mimara?
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on December 11, 2013, 07:04:31 pm
Again though, this reads to me like an attempt to simply not hazard my question. Sorcerous or otherwise, do either of you think that Qirri eating precedes the coming of the Inchoroi?

I have been of the mindset that the Dunyain were founded, and possibly sustained, while eating Qirri.  But I haven't been able to make a coherent thesis about it.  Or, for that matter, figure out how that would fit into any timeline, other than it would be after The Fall.

Lol - I wish you luck because I wanted to read this :).


Really liking this line of thought, Curethan. Especially because I think it fits into the idea of qirri (and chanv) being the result or sorcerous ashes, rather than anything special to the Nonmen. Perhaps, when a sorceror is "Choraed", it's his physical body that's incinerated, while the salt is the residue of his soul. Burning a Nonman (and, presumably a human), yields the same thing -- the body is gone, but the ashes that remain are infused with the soul residue.

The ability to grasp the onta is genetic afterall.

So, Chanv is the result of "Choared" corpses and Qirri the result of burned ashes? 

That is speculation. We just don't know yet about Chanv. Qirri is the result of burned ashes but we're trying to discern whether that is because of they are the ashes of the Quya Few, Nonmen in general, or the result of Tekne being introduced to the Nonmen Bios.

aren't Kellhus' haloes golden?

Would it indicate his falseness that the judging eye sees silver halos around Mimara?

Mayhaps, good sir.

Though, we can't exactly claim the Righteousness of Mimara's perspective as much as I'd like to believe.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 12, 2013, 05:36:22 am
The skinspy tells Mimarra Cleric is killing them and the qirri is part of that.
The skin-spy could be lying. We only know for sure that it wanted Mimara's Chorae and that it thought it could defeat Nil'giccas in a mundane (still would have been epic) fight to the death with nimil vs. iron and Chorae. And that it wanted to accomplish killing Nil'giccas for the purposes of protecting a pregnant Mimara; Aurang indicates that this is the final variable that definitively safeguards her life.

I agree. Not convinced it's poison.  Don't know about the rest.

Lmao... no sarcasm, I truly appreciate the fact that only here could you actually suggest the bold in seriousness against the premise of your position, being the existence of sorcery  ;).

Don't blame me.    It's Bakker's fault for presenting such a consistent and compelling setting. ;D

However, you've got to put it into perspective. They've only been at this for months and they haven't been not eating, just eating a lot less. They did eat semi-regularly and are still dining on anything they can find (up to and including raw meat in the Interlude at the end of WLW). They might have enjoyed years of longer life should they not have partaken in this drug or this journey and they're doing themselves damage by sustaining the Qirri habit this long.

Also, consider if Chanv is a product of the Tekne rather than sorcery; the Tekne is an advanced system of technology to which we've attributed all sorts of advances in chemical and biological engineering. Certainly, I can stretch what is known today to seemingly "magical" progress in these fields, can't I? If not sorcery, then the division between Qirri eating before or after the Fall can provide a big clue as to whether it is the Tekne manipulations of the Nonmen that make a drug of their ashes.

Sure, man.  The Tekne is just more magic as far as I'm concerned.  Genetic engineering seems a lot more difficult than having some equipment and a bunch of crazy sorcerers and two sex criminals in a room for 1000 years.  Difference is that it isn't concerned with souls.

There is only the questions remaining;
why would the tekne immortality-treament/womb-plague make your ashes into super-amphetamine for humans
(had fun imagining the design phase)
why does cleric force it on Akka & Mim . 

Notation please :). I'd like to read the passages that instill these thoughts.
My inference - from Akka and Mimarra's POV's.  Not a relevatory sentence or phrase.
Akka catalogues the changes in his perspective that reflect the experience of a long lived soul.  But, as usual, he doesn't consider what that means.

Mimarra doesn't use the JE to get inside Cleric's head.  The more she uses qirri, the more she is able to manipulate him.  She shaves her hair to seduce Cleric without even thinking about it.
She teases his old identity and the origin of qirri from him.

Anyway, it fits with Cleric's objective - he wants them to be more like the nonmen he once knew so that he can remember when he kills them.  That's why he forces it on them.

I actually like this conception very much, except one contention.

(click to show/hide)

However, my contention is Mimara's decision to shave her head:

Quote from: WLW, p287
Then, in the empty interval between breaths, the Judging Eye opens.

For a time she gazes in stupefaction, then she weeps at the transformation.

Her hair cropped penitent short. Her clothing fine, but with the smell of borrowed things. Her belly low and heavy with child...

And a halo about her head, bright and silver and so very holy. The encircling waters darken for its glow.

She convulses about breathless sobs, falls clutching to her knees for anguish...

For she sees that she is good - and this she cannot bear.

My bold, original italics. Obviously, we can take stabs at the ambiguity of penitent but it's not until p660 that she shaves her head.
Not sure what you're getting at.  In the later scene she shaves her head and eyebrows in front of Cleric.
Quote
Her hair falls in a tangle of ribbons across her lap.
...
She's not quite certain what she intends to do, let alone what she hopes to accomplish.
...
And miraculously she sees it.  Her purpose and intent.
Then she reminds him of his dead wife' which results in him remembering without killing her (although he comes very close).  That's when she gets his old name.  (After that he remembers Mimara's name.  I think she was safe from Cleric killing her after that.)

In my mind, everything in Earwa has magical properties to some extent.  Faces form out of the ground and talk, sorcerers walk on the echo of the earth, cish use snakes to see, Yatwer uses storks etc etc. 
It only takes the presence of some kind of soul/animus to disrupt the causal flow. 
Sorcerers are just very good at it.

Sranc, otoh, have no connection to the ground.  E.g. the gods see them as lies.  The question with eating them is, to me, a mundane one.  Does eating them infect you with the tekne?

Minus the Cishaurim and the snakes and sorcerers walking, we actually don't know that Yatwer's powers aren't active on a different frequency, so to say; I think this is the distinction that's long floated round here between thaumaturgy and sorcery.
Totally.  Different metaphysical quanta and relationships.  I think it's related to the earthly remains of souls - the point where they go outside.  So the Cish or Yatwer part of the spectrum.

Again though, this reads to me like an attempt to simply not hazard my question. Sorcerous or otherwise, do either of you think that Qirri eating precedes the coming of the Inchoroi?

Haha.  You want concise answers - sorry!
Maybe.  No evidence either way. It doesn't matter though, because I think the effects would be the same.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wic on December 12, 2013, 05:51:56 am
Quote from: Curethan
why would the tekne immortality-treament/womb-plague make your ashes into super-amphetamine for humans
Carbon nanofiber proteins that enhance cellular processes and don't break when set aflame?

(Why yes, I HAVE been thinking about this.)
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 12, 2013, 06:02:54 am
Hehe, so when does the womb-plague kick in for poor Mimara?  Given Akka's age he should be ripe for going erratic too. 
Well, that or becoming young of limb and fair of face. :D

I've conceded the possibility its the tekne, but soul residue seems more likely to me.

Besides - it reminds me of the reasoning behind Swazond, and I like the idea of Canninbal Kelmomas eating people to get superpowers.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 12, 2013, 06:10:28 am
Again though, this reads to me like an attempt to simply not hazard my question. Sorcerous or otherwise, do either of you think that Qirri eating precedes the coming of the Inchoroi?

I have been of the mindset that the Dunyain were founded, and possibly sustained, while eating Qirri.  But I haven't been able to make a coherent thesis about it.  Or, for that matter, figure out how that would fit into any timeline, other than it would be after The Fall.

I've long held the nerdanel that the Thousand Thousand Halls are a nonman mansion that Ishual was built on top of.  Thinking about it again, I have convinced myself that mansion is Viri and it's possibly full of Nonmen who were powdered into qirri by the Inchie 'weapons of light' - so the Dunyain were getting dosed all along.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on December 12, 2013, 12:45:36 pm
Sure, man.  The Tekne is just more magic as far as I'm concerned.  Genetic engineering seems a lot more difficult than having some equipment and a bunch of crazy sorcerers and two sex criminals in a room for 1000 years.  Difference is that it isn't concerned with souls.

Well, the Inchoroi had much more of a knowledge base at the time of the Fall, obviously. Womb-Plague, Grafting for sorcery; these things happened before the Nonmen hunted the Inchoroi across Earwa and through the Ark to extermination.

Plus, you can still be a scientist and a sexual deviant...

There is only the questions remaining;
why would the tekne immortality-treament/womb-plague make your ashes into super-amphetamine for humans
(had fun imagining the design phase)
why does cleric force it on Akka & Mim .

Lol - I'll respond a little more with Wic's stellar answer below but as to your second question: this has always been my biggest question in the Erratic Trauma Curve.

For my money, I've come to think that Cleric was going to leverage the addiction so that when the time came (he dumps the ashes out right before the fight between him and Achamian), it would compel those he wanted to remember to attack him...

But I honestly don't think we know enough about how Erratics function, how Kosoter served as his elju in bringing Cleric trauma (Was the continual death of Scalper fodder enough for Cleric? Who did they generally remind him of, the humans of the Apocalypse?), whether the skin-spy said what it said in truth or in deceit, etc...

Notation please :). I'd like to read the passages that instill these thoughts.
My inference - from Akka and Mimarra's POV's.  Not a relevatory sentence or phrase.
Akka catalogues the changes in his perspective that reflect the experience of a long lived soul.  But, as usual, he doesn't consider what that means.

Mimarra doesn't use the JE to get inside Cleric's head.  The more she uses qirri, the more she is able to manipulate him.  She shaves her hair to seduce Cleric without even thinking about it.
She teases his old identity and the origin of qirri from him.


Anyway, it fits with Cleric's objective - he wants them to be more like the nonmen he once knew so that he can remember when he kills them.  That's why he forces it on them.

Not sure what you're getting at.  In the later scene she shaves her head and eyebrows in front of Cleric.
Quote
Her hair falls in a tangle of ribbons across her lap.
...
She's not quite certain what she intends to do, let alone what she hopes to accomplish.
...
And miraculously she sees it.  Her purpose and intent.
Then she reminds him of his dead wife' which results in him remembering without killing her (although he comes very close).  That's when she gets his old name.  (After that he remembers Mimara's name.  I think she was safe from Cleric killing her after that.)

You seem to imply in the bold above that the Qirri gives her the explicit or implicit insight to shave her hair...

I was merely suggesting that the Judging Eye, not the Qirri, gave her that insight.

Totally.  Different metaphysical quanta and relationships.  I think it's related to the earthly remains of souls - the point where they go outside.  So the Cish or Yatwer part of the spectrum.

Or they are mutually exclusive in Earwa?

Haha.  You want concise answers - sorry!
Maybe.  No evidence either way. It doesn't matter though, because I think the effects would be the same.

Lol - nope, that in-concise one was all I ever wanted :P.

Quote from: Curethan
why would the tekne immortality-treament/womb-plague make your ashes into super-amphetamine for humans
Carbon nanofiber proteins that enhance cellular processes and don't break when set aflame?

(Why yes, I HAVE been thinking about this.)

+1 Wic. Thanks. I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking this shit is in the realm of possibilities.

Hehe, so when does the womb-plague kick in for poor Mimara?  Given Akka's age he should be ripe for going erratic too. 
Well, that or becoming young of limb and fair of face. :D

Hmm... there's no reason to assume that the dosages of Qirri they are taking (should something like Wic's guess be right) are enough to pass the threshold to necessary for "Immortality/v. Nonmen" or even can interact with humans in the functionally specific fashion designed for the Nonmen.

I've conceded the possibility its the tekne, but soul residue seems more likely to me.

Yay!

Besides - it reminds me of the reasoning behind Swazond, and I like the idea of Canninbal Kelmomas eating people to get superpowers.

Oh, there's no reason to assume this isn't still the case ;).

I've long held the nerdanel that the Thousand Thousand Halls are a nonman mansion that Ishual was built on top of.  Thinking about it again, I have convinced myself that mansion is Viri and it's possibly full of Nonmen who were powdered into qirri by the Inchie 'weapons of light' - so the Dunyain were getting dosed all along.

Yeah, I'm very curious as to the Thousand Thousand Halls. I don't think it's a stretch at all to suggest that it's a derelict Mansion; light is forbidden, the mapping of space, based on acoustics and wind-flow, in Kyudea reminds Kellhus of the TTH, the names, etc.

I've long thought that Ishterebinth and Ishual are linked under the mountain.

Hell - Nerdanel Inspiration: Achamian and Mimara find a mix of Dunyain survivors and Nonman Intact fighting a losing civil war against the Consult-Nonmen for Ishterebinth from the Thousand Thousand Halls. The Nonmen realize their King (Achamian's nimil armour) is dead giving them the conviction to take the Mansion...

Mind blown. My brain is a sopping mess on the wall.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 12, 2013, 01:18:51 pm
You don't think Ishual is far enough away to be Viri?  Perhaps Dagliash would be a more reasonable area for it - there are mountains there at least. 
Surely it can't be directly under Golgoteroth?
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on December 12, 2013, 03:56:45 pm
The False Sun puts Viri on "the North Shore of the Neleöst Sea." Dagliash seems a possibility?
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 12, 2013, 11:16:26 pm
Ah ty, ty.  Well, surely not Ishual then.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Callan S. on December 18, 2013, 12:39:58 am
Just noticed the halo was about her head, not her hands.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Francis Buck on December 18, 2013, 01:26:51 am
Damn, some great thoughts here guys. I fear I'm still stubbornly clinging to my "qirri/chanv are the issue of soecerous ash" theory, but regardless, great thoughts.

You know, I think we're definitely seeing another Dune connetion here with the "mysteriously powerful and dangerously addictive substance" concept, which is of course in the vein of the spice melange. But, unsurprisingly given that it's Bakker, it all has to be twisted and tied up with darker, more horrible ideas, like cannibalism.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on December 18, 2013, 01:40:44 pm
Lol. Gall, FB. No! They don't even have the same symptoms of use ;).

You know, I think we're definitely seeing another Dune connetion here with the "mysteriously powerful and dangerously addictive substance" concept, which is of course in the vein of the spice melange. But, unsurprisingly given that it's Bakker, it all has to be twisted and tied up with darker, more horrible ideas, like cannibalism.

Big +1.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Inraus Ghost on January 29, 2014, 07:20:49 am
I'm really starting to doubt that eating Sranc would have any effects similar to qirri (whether it comes from quya or not), because Sranc have no souls. 
Therefore they can't affect your metaphysical state. 


When Akka and Mimara partake of Nil'giccas' ash it's noted "the strength that shivers thru them has a more melancholy tenor." in comparison to the ashs of CC. This indicates who it's made of effects the final product. With souls being the overriding meta physic in Earwa I feel you may be correct.

But then the immortality treatment may be the answer to qirri too, as what ever is sustaining them may have mystic residue. Either way I'm skeptical that eating sranc will have an effect on humans outside the psychological ones.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Meyna on January 29, 2014, 12:28:33 pm
Yes, having no effect at all is definitely an option. It might be as simple as Kellhus needing to wait, due to superstition, until everyone was desperate enough before he commanded the consumption of Sranc.

A big piece of evidence that there will be an effect, though, is the fact that the command comes as a book-ending cliffhanger 8)
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on January 29, 2014, 12:57:57 pm
A big piece of evidence that there will be an effect, though, is the fact that the command comes as a book-ending cliffhanger 8)

Unless Bakker's going to pull a Martin and go all foodstuffs throughout TUC because Sranc is a delicacy that must be served to the World.

The Tekne is cuisine. It's all protein right ;)?

Ordeal corrals all the Sranc in the World within the space of a year and they are farmed out of existence - Humanity - 1, Meat Food - 0. TSA is actually a commentary on the environment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtmI--F8Zmo).

Seriously though, how is everyone so convinced that Qirri operates by metaphysical mechanism?
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Meyna on January 29, 2014, 01:41:36 pm
A big piece of evidence that there will be an effect, though, is the fact that the command comes as a book-ending cliffhanger 8)

Unless Bakker's going to pull a Martin and go all foodstuffs throughout TUC because Sranc is a delicacy that must be served to the World.

The Tekne is cuisine. It's all protein right ;)?

Ordeal corrals all the Sranc in the World within the space of a year and they are farmed out of existence - Humanity - 1, Meat Food - 0. TSA is actually a commentary on the environment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtmI--F8Zmo).

Seriously though, how is everyone so convinced that Qirri operates by metaphysical mechanism?

Proyas / Serwa 12-course black wedding!

I don't have my books with me; where does the description of the effects of qirri come from? Akka or NG? It could be a purely physical or psychosomatic reaction instead of a metaphysical reaction, if the users are properly conditioned to react in a certain way.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on January 29, 2014, 01:48:09 pm
I don't have my books with me; where does the description of the effects of qirri come from? Akka or NG? It could be a purely physical or psychosomatic reaction instead of a metaphysical reaction, if the users are properly conditioned to react in a certain way.

No one really details the effects. Achamian, Mimara, and to a much lesser extent Cleric do meditate on the Qirri from time to time.

But the Tekne (or the natural Nonperson bios when burnt) could just be a hell of a drug - I tried to detail some of this above in the thread. And not thinking about what drugs do to you is a by-product of doing drugs, really.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on January 29, 2014, 05:52:57 pm
Seriously though, how is everyone so convinced that Qirri operates by metaphysical mechanism?

Well Tekne is a bio-tech, and, famously, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Magic, in Earwa, is pretty much the same as metaphysics.

Therefore, whether the Tekne is metaphysical or not isn't really an argument at all, but rather two different ways at explaining the same phenomenon....  ;D
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on January 29, 2014, 06:58:28 pm
Lol - for comedic value, I'd like to curse at you (though, I support your thinkenearing). But I will resist defacing the monument - I'll leave that for Quorum ;).

To rephrase: Seriously though, how is everyone so convinced that Qirri operates by thaumaturgical mechanism?
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on January 29, 2014, 07:58:08 pm
Lol - for comedic value, I'd like to curse at you (though, I support your thinkenearing). But I will resist defacing the monument - I'll leave that for Quorum ;).
The exact response I was hoping for.

To rephrase: Seriously though, how is everyone so convinced that Qirri operates by thaumaturgical mechanism?

Uh, my understand is that 'thaumaturgical'  means some kind of god given power, like Clerics in any D&D Universe, or (perhaps) the Cishaurim in Earwa. So to that I would say: I imagine it would be quite the opposite, since the nonmen and the Gods don't seem to talk much.
Though I imagine I misunderstand.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on January 29, 2014, 08:20:19 pm
To rephrase (again): Seriously though, how is everyone so convinced that Qirri works by operating directly on the soul, rather than the bios?

Fucking Wilshire ;).
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on January 29, 2014, 08:54:49 pm
 :D

I'm not 100% sure, but I think that more emoticons would have helped make your meaning more clear... :P

Even though my main goal was to be irritating with that first response, I actually think it has some merit. When you've got a book that has both sci-fi and fantasy elements, the distinction is blurry at best. I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see a couple magical things turn out to  be mechanical, or vice-versa. Compared to the Inchoroi, or the Dunyain even, you have a bunch of primitive minds with effectively no knowledge of technology who have been living along side magic for their whole history.

That doesn't really answer the question though. More directly, it is easier for the reader to take a given character's perceptions/descriptions as facts, rather than try to twist them to some other obscure truth. A Quya, a Wizard, a Wich-to-be, and a bunch of superstitious madmen see Quirri as Magical or somehow divine.... right? Magic is more prevalent in the world than technology (at this point, (so we have been lead to believe)), so again, the magical explanation is easier. Also, the Soul seem to be the least common denominator in all things magical and divine, so by extension....

But consider two things: Most of what the Nonmen are today was forged by the Inchoroi and the Inchoroi did their experimenting before they could see the Onta. This would probably lead one to believe that since the Qirri is made from the ashes of what is basically an Inchoroi experiment, its likely that whatever the effects would be mundane rather than metaphysical.

Though, for the sake of argument, one could say that the Inchoroi are fully consumed by their desire to escape their damnation. This probably leads to an extreme obsession of all things Soul. Why wouldn't they try to develop, using their willing Nonman partners, some kind of meta-biological 'cure' for their condition? Maybe their experiments, while physical in nature, were designed to alter the Nonman Souls. Perhaps they succeeded. Still born children and dying in childbirth could seem like a problem with your Soul if thats what you're looking to find.


There, an answer thats not entirely designed to be irritating :).
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on January 30, 2014, 01:23:54 am
A Quya, a Wizard, a Wich-to-be, and a bunch of superstitious madmen see Quirri as Magical or somehow divine.... right?

Well, this issue at hand, no?

Achamian just refers to it as a drug. I don't actually think any characters have made an explicit connection between Qirri, the Soul, Magic or the Divine but the forumers have suggested this - hence my query for evidence.

But consider two things: Most of what the Nonmen are today was forged by the Inchoroi and the Inchoroi did their experimenting before they could see the Onta. This would probably lead one to believe that since the Qirri is made from the ashes of what is basically an Inchoroi experiment, its likely that whatever the effects would be mundane rather than metaphysical.

Not sure you've read the past four pages ;) - this has been my argument for the majority of my posts; which leads me over and over to the question of whether burning Nonmen and eating Qirri was a practice before the Womb-Plague or not...

Though, for the sake of argument, one could say that the Inchoroi are fully consumed by their desire to escape their damnation. This probably leads to an extreme obsession of all things Soul. Why wouldn't they try to develop, using their willing Nonman partners, some kind of meta-biological 'cure' for their condition? Maybe their experiments, while physical in nature, were designed to alter the Nonman Souls. Perhaps they succeeded. Still born children and dying in childbirth could seem like a problem with your Soul if thats what you're looking to find.

There, an answer thats not entirely designed to be irritating :).

But again where is this evidence that Qirri leverages its effects through the soul, specifically, rather than the body?
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wic on January 30, 2014, 01:50:44 am
Related note, I bet the nonmen make some great amphetamines.

"I CAN SEE THE WOLF IN THREE PLACES AT ONCE!"
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on January 30, 2014, 02:21:40 am
Related note, I bet the nonmen make some great amphetamines.

"I CAN SEE THE WOLF IN THREE PLACES AT ONCE!"

This. Amazing.

Almost spit my mouthful of beer all over my laptop and textbook ;).
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on January 30, 2014, 02:31:24 am
The evidence is in the mind of the reader. As with most things with the books so far, if you look hard enough its there.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on January 30, 2014, 03:48:44 am
The evidence is in the mind of the reader. As with most things with the books so far, if you look hard enough its there.

Lol - so my quest to bring some rigour to our citing the Second Apocalypse is moot?

'Common.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Inraus Ghost on January 30, 2014, 05:15:39 am

Seriously though, how is everyone so convinced that Qirri operates by metaphysical mechanism?

Convinced is a strong word in my case, but the bit of text I quoted in my previous post, combined with the settings general metaphysics is why it's my preferred theory. But I'm open to it being a side effect of the tekni, thus being a purely chemical effect. And completely rule out nothing.

As to proof, well there's as much or more than some of the other completely baseless(and sometimes really out there) theories around here. Say, sranc meat being anything other than protein. Because there are far to many physiological and metaphysical differences between the 2 know sources of quirri and nonmen to just assume you get high from both. And no, the announcement of the sranc eating at the end of a book is not evidence either. Think of the horror and revulsion the men of the ordeal must feel and the thought.

All any of us have about anything here is option and conjecture as, by the authors own admission, even our sources of Facts contain misinformation. That's not to say we should not ask "Why do you think that?" of each other. Just a reminder that even our "facts" are infirm ground.   :)
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Duskweaver on January 30, 2014, 12:13:20 pm
This assumed distinction between 'metaphysics' and 'just technology' is making me twitchy. I think you all miss Bakker's point in a big way. It's a distinction that only makes sense from the point of view of 'we the readers' observing Earwa from above/outside, from within our own world. In our world, we can speak of 'metaphysics' as something dealing with the soul that we don't believe in except as a metaphor, contrasted with the biological mechanism that is the body and the mind it fools itself into thinking it possesses. To the characters in tSA, though, there's no distinction, just as there wasn't to our own ancestors (and this is the point I think Bakker is trying to make throughout the series). In a sense, there's no such thing as 'metaphysics' to Earwans; it's all just 'physics'. The soul and sorcery and life after death are as real to them as rocks and trees and human bodies. Analysing Earwa from a 21st century scientific-materialist perspective is, IMO, a fundamental error.

In other words, Qirri is Qirri. It might be a product of the Tekne or a product of the Gnosis, or some combination, or something else entirely. But to ask whether it is metaphysical or technological is a mu-question. If it changes a character's thoughts or emotions or the way they perceive the world, then in Earwan terms it is acting on their soul. Whether we would describe an analogous substance in our world as 'acting on the soul' or merely as 'a drug' is irrevelant.

Same goes for eating sranc. Someone asked whether it would have any effects beyond the psychological, as if that word doesn't already imply soul-warping in Earwa!
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on January 30, 2014, 01:44:47 pm
I agree with some of that, but I disagree that we cannot look at it from our own perspective. There is some 'objective' truth in Earwa that has been purposely hidden from us, and we spend our time here on the forum trying to discover what that truth might be. Sure you can say that, to Earwa and its ignorant inhabitants, that there is no distinction of physical reality and 'metaphysics' (soul, sorcery, gods, etc.), but that doesn't mean that their ignorance must be our own. We have the ability to see the whole picture as it exists within Earwa. We are not attempting to take the SA universe, put it into our own, and decipher it, but rather taking our privileged perspective and using it to figure out what is really happening in Earwa.

The whole purpose of this forum is to cut through the lies, misinformation, stupidity, ignorance, and biases of the characters and their perspectives, in order to try and figure out whats happening. I wholeheartedly disagree with you that simply because Earwa sees no distinction between physics and metaphysics that we should just accepts 'facts' as facts. Afterall, there would be almost nothing left to talk about if everyone here had that view.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on January 30, 2014, 05:14:17 pm
As to proof, well there's as much or more than some of the other completely baseless(and sometimes really out there) theories around here. Say, sranc meat being anything other than protein. Because there are far to many physiological and metaphysical differences between the 2 know sources of quirri and nonmen to just assume you get high from both. And no, the announcement of the sranc eating at the end of a book is not evidence either. Think of the horror and revulsion the men of the ordeal must feel and the thought.

Again, I've actually been working to distinguish the finer details of the Earwan Pharmakopeia earlier in the thread.

I like to at least have sources for even my wilder imaginings. This wouldn't be fun if it wasn't already borne out that sometimes we can tease details of the future narrative from the evidence (not proof - colour me a stickler) in the books.

Quote
All any of us have about anything here is option and conjecture as, by the authors own admission, even our sources of Facts contain misinformation. That's not to say we should not ask "Why do you think that?" of each other. Just a reminder that even our "facts" are infirm ground.   :)

Noted, of course. But again this is simply not a reason not to follow the threads of (ill)logic where they may go :).

Let's take Chanv, for instance. Am I to assume from the consensus here that it extends lifespan by manipulating the soul rather than the body?

This assumed distinction between 'metaphysics' and 'just technology' is making me twitchy. I think you all miss Bakker's point in a big way. It's a distinction that only makes sense from the point of view of 'we the readers' observing Earwa from above/outside, from within our own world. In our world, we can speak of 'metaphysics' as something dealing with the soul that we don't believe in except as a metaphor, contrasted with the biological mechanism that is the body and the mind it fools itself into thinking it possesses. To the characters in tSA, though, there's no distinction, just as there wasn't to our own ancestors (and this is the point I think Bakker is trying to make throughout the series). In a sense, there's no such thing as 'metaphysics' to Earwans; it's all just 'physics'. The soul and sorcery and life after death are as real to them as rocks and trees and human bodies. Analysing Earwa from a 21st century scientific-materialist perspective is, IMO, a fundamental error.

I can grok this, Duskweaver - but clearly the World is mundane in some senses (read: comparable to our flerwed anachronist projections). Everyone might have a connection the Outside but not everyone is affected in life by that connection, right?

In other words, Qirri is Qirri. It might be a product of the Tekne or a product of the Gnosis, or some combination, or something else entirely. But to ask whether it is metaphysical or technological is a mu-question. If it changes a character's thoughts or emotions or the way they perceive the world, then in Earwan terms it is acting on their soul. Whether we would describe an analogous substance in our world as 'acting on the soul' or merely as 'a drug' is irrevelant.

I'm a person who could (and will in part) happily spend my one life trying to understand the brain. It's not a mu-question. My goal isn't answers, it's analysis.

I grok the collapsed distinction between mind and soul in Earwa. But this raises questions I've had buried in other threads. If I learn something in Earwa, is it my soul that "records" that learning? (To distinguish soul from mind, soul exists both in and Outside the World - and we know from the TUC Ch. 1 Excerpt that the division is tricky - clearly some aspects of cognition don't in fact carry over to your experience of soul later, marking an uneasy distinction between mind and soul again).

Same goes for eating sranc. Someone asked whether it would have any effects beyond the psychological, as if that word doesn't already imply soul-warping in Earwa!

But does it? Again this illustrates the levels of analysis nicely: if I eat Sranc, it could be mundanely revolting (dependent on my biological form not wanting to partake in eating Sranc); it could be that eating Sranc precipitates more intense changes akin to Qirri and Chanv by way of the mundane (which again might not have any effect on the soul, which exists after death); it could be that eating Sranc affects my soul directly and my perceptual and biological changes occur because my soul and its extension Outside are affected. It could be all or none of those things even (possibly).

I don't believe I'm complicating things unnecessarily ;)...

I agree with some of that, but I disagree that we cannot look at it from our own perspective. There is some 'objective' truth in Earwa that has been purposely hidden from us, and we spend our time here on the forum trying to discover what that truth might be. Sure you can say that, to Earwa and its ignorant inhabitants, that there is no distinction of physical reality and 'metaphysics' (soul, sorcery, gods, etc.), but that doesn't mean that their ignorance must be our own. We have the ability to see the whole picture as it exists within Earwa. We are not attempting to take the SA universe, put it into our own, and decipher it, but rather taking our privileged perspective and using it to figure out what is really happening in Earwa.

The whole purpose of this forum is to cut through the lies, misinformation, stupidity, ignorance, and biases of the characters and their perspectives, in order to try and figure out whats happening. I wholeheartedly disagree with you that simply because Earwa sees no distinction between physics and metaphysics that we should just accepts 'facts' as facts. Afterall, there would be almost nothing left to talk about if everyone here had that view.

Lol, it's interesting to note that one or the other is true. Either the Second Apocalypse is best solved by analysizing through the lens of our anachronistic perspective like Wilshire highlights or by adopting as lens the pre-enlightened worldviews we think our ancestors had as Duskweaver suggests...

Or a mix of both, which makes me want to hit the panic button.

Gall.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Inraus Ghost on January 30, 2014, 09:36:02 pm
Note:In my previous post I mistakenly said "differences between the 2 know sources of quirri and nonmen" I meant to say sranc not nonmen.


Quote
All any of us have about anything here is option and conjecture as, by the authors own admission, even our sources of Facts contain misinformation. That's not to say we should not ask "Why do you think that?" of each other. Just a reminder that even our "facts" are infirm ground.   :)

Noted, of course. But again this is simply not a reason not to follow the threads of (ill)logic where they may go :).

Let's take Chanv, for instance. Am I to assume from the consensus here that it extends lifespan by manipulating the soul rather than the body?


I brought that up because you were a bit one sidedly insistent on proof in a discussion that bears little either way. I felt, perhaps incorrectly, that you were beginning to get upset and sought to mitigate that. Being here and discussing these things(and greatly enjoying the discourse) should be taken as a willingness to follow and attempt to untangle the threads of RSBs setting regardless of the general lack of objective proof. We're all here to bullshit, brother.

As too Chanv, we've even less data on it so I say assume nothing. I think it's probably magic or techne based
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on January 30, 2014, 10:18:23 pm
I brought that up because you were a bit one sidedly insistent on proof in a discussion that bears little either way. I felt, perhaps incorrectly, that you were beginning to get upset and sought to mitigate that. Being here and discussing these things(and greatly enjoying the discourse) should be taken as a willingness to follow and attempt to untangle the threads of RSBs setting regardless of the general lack of objective proof. We're all here to bullshit, brother.

Appreciated, Inraus Ghost. None of evidence commentary is directed at anybody so much as everybody, certainly not yourself, as my experience of your words so far has been coherent; I'm just left with more questions. There's only so much text. It's all ambiguious. I'd just like to be able to know someone's connotations, if they have any specific passages that might have prompted their particular thoughts. Is all.

Also, admittedly, I'm a little overzealous about new membership, especially those who share in posts :).

As too Chanv, we've even less data on it so I say assume nothing. I think it's probably magic or techne based

The way my head works, this immediately sends me categorizing.

Chanv:
- Eleazarus thinking about the majority of the Ainoni caste-nobility being users; uncertain origins.
- TTT Glossary; Chanv: sharpens intellect, extends one's lifespan, drains pigment
- TTT Glossary; Jekhia: famed as the mysterious source of chanv; humans of Jekhia exhibit Xiuhianni (5th Tribe - missing) characteristics.

Qirri:
- Ash of Burnt Nonman
- The "tenor," let's say (I think that's in a metaphor somewhere), is distinct based on the life-lived (which does admittedly lend itself to the soul-hypotheses).
- Cu'jara Cinmoi and Nil'giccas were both burnt after their Bios had been manipulated by the Tekne (which consensus seems unambiguously, I think, that this is future-biomedical technology, specifically, rather than another sorcery - though, I seem to recall that Soul-Technology has been suggested).
- Cleric says they burn their greatest; Would Nil'giccas have qualified for this ritual? (not super-relevant to detailing the drug and its mechanisms but I'm curious now); Did the Nonpeople perform the ritual of burning their greatest before the Womb-Plague?
- Allows for increased stamina, speed, suppresses hunger, improves eyesight (possibly sensation generally) (Mimara notes that Koll - before the thing called Tsuor replaces him - can't see the Skin-Eaters at night as they all interact unhindered around him), affects depersonalization (like a cognitive gloss) but also sustains an illusion of increased mental clarity, makes one steam (abnormally?) in the rain?

Sranc (?):

- We really don't know whether to include this, do we? I very much feel like Qirri becoming such a major part of WLW and the perversion of the Nonman Bios into Sranc by Tekne both seem to suggest that burnt Sranc will have similar consequences. I mean, I absolutely can't discount that Bakker might simply mean to do a meditation on cannibalism. But I feel like those two things give rise to the possibility of it having a perceptual or physical effect [beyond general revoltion from eating Sranc].

Hash, Perrapta (Fish-Oil liquor), Unnamed Nilnameshi drug used to enslave populace (possibly opium?):

- All exist in Earwa. All seem to mimic real-life drugs (I guess I've imagined perrapta as comparable moonshine or absinthe).

And that's it, I think...

My issue is that I simply can't decide how to take all that and distill it into any sort of functional network. And then I'm doubly confused because it seems that everyone else sees as obvious this Qirri and Soul connection.

Just seeking clarity is all.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Inraus Ghost on January 31, 2014, 12:34:54 am



 I'd just like to be able to know someone's connotations, if they have any specific passages that might have prompted their particular thoughts. Is all.

Also, admittedly, I'm a little overzealous about new membership, especially those who share in posts :).

Cool gauging new people to see what kind of mind you're conversing with is totally understandable. I was a bit defensive about it I admit.


- We really don't know whether to include this, do we? I very much feel like Qirri becoming such a major part of WLW and the perversion of the Nonman Bios into Sranc by Tekne both seem to suggest that burnt Sranc will have similar consequences. I mean, I absolutely can't discount that Bakker might simply mean to do a meditation on cannibalism. But I feel like those two things give rise to the possibility of it having a perceptual or physical effect [beyond general revoltion from eating Sranc].

Ok, maybe I was being thick before, but I see your line of reasoning now. I guess it comes down to what nonmen bios was used as the template for the sranc, pre or post womb plague. While they were not encountered until after the discovery of the plague, the numbers in which they appeared makes me think their manufacture began before the Inchori made their offer. But then, to counter my own point, they did have at least Nin'janjin to experiment on.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on January 31, 2014, 12:49:39 am
Cool gauging new people to see what kind of mind you're conversing with is totally understandable. I was a bit defensive about it I admit.

Think nothing of it. I'm incapable of more than minimally diluting my intensely forward personality. Especially in this place ;D.

Ok, maybe I was being thick before, but I see your line of reasoning now. I guess it comes down to what nonmen bios was used as the template for the sranc, pre or post womb plague. While they were not encountered until after the discovery of the plague, the numbers in which they appeared makes me think their manufacture began before the Inchori made their offer. But then, to counter my own point, they did have at least Nin'janjin to experiment on.

Gall. I can never remember this timeline well - books are at home. But I believe you are right-on that the Sranc would have been created en masse as the Inchoroi were ministering the Womb-Plague to the Nonmen.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Francis Buck on January 31, 2014, 04:12:18 am
Regarding timelines and having recently checked them out for a separate topic, I don't think we can really know just when they cracked the Nonman's bios in relation to when they started administering the womb-plague/immortality. But, I do think it's reasonable assumption they had been making Sranc by then (or at least they knew how?). I don't know how much time spanned between the spreading of the womb-plague and Cuno-Inchoroi wars proper (I.E. the unleashing of tons of Sranc), but regardless the two would seem to sort of go hand-in-hand; a knowledge of Nonman biochemistry, that is.

While I do think Bakker is going to get into the thematic concepts of cannibalism in general (he already has), I also think we're definitely going to see some crazy shit going on with eating Sranc. As has been stated, the emphasis on Qirri in the WLW, along with the way the revelation of "now we eat Sranc" is revealed (basically ending the Ordeal's arc in TWLW with that "cliffhanger") is enough for me to believe there's some kind of important shit going down with the Nonman's make-up. And, again, this stuff is all very reminiscent of Dune and melange.

So much stuff in this series, for me, comes down to What the fuck are the Nonmen? Where did they come from? What came first -- man or Nonman? How related are they? It's one of my biggest questions in the series to, and one that I hope (but fear will not) be definitively answered.

Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Duskweaver on January 31, 2014, 10:06:54 am
Sure you can say that, to Earwa and its ignorant inhabitants, that there is no distinction of physical reality and 'metaphysics' (soul, sorcery, gods, etc.)
No, I'm saying the distinction flat-out makes no sense when talking about Earwa. (There is a related distinction that does make sense: that between the World as the God wills it and that alternative version of reality created by sorcery and hence bearing the Mark.)

I obviously didn't explain my point very well, because the problem isn't merely that we're looking at things differently to how Earwans would, but that we're looking at things differently from how Earwa is. The lack of distinction between the physical and the metaphysical is not due to ignorance on the Earwans' part.

People here appear to be drawing the dividing line between what would be real in our world and what would be impossible in our world, ignoring the fact that both are equally 'real' in Earwa. That makes no sense to me. It feels just the same as when people try to explain things like the owlbear from D&D in terms of evolution by natural selection, or try to work out the chemical composition of wildfire from aSoIaF. If an alchemist from our own Europe's mediaeval period tells us something is 'magic', we know he's wrong; when Hallyne the Pyromancer says the same thing, we've no logical reason to doubt him and assuming he is wrong because of how stuff works in our world is a logical error.

Quote
We have the ability to see the whole picture as it exists within Earwa.
That statement seems completely at odds with how Bakker writes. I don't think we ever see "the whole picture". I think filling in the 'gaps' with how things would be in our world is a mistake.

Quote
our privileged perspective and using it to figure out what is really happening in Earwa.
I can't agree that we have a "privileged perspective". I think, if anything, we readers know far, far less about how Earwa works than its inhabitants do.

Quote
Afterall, there would be almost nothing left to talk about if everyone here had that view.
Obviously I disagree with this, otherwise I'd not be here.

I can grok this, Duskweaver - but clearly the World is mundane in some senses (read: comparable to our flerwed anachronist projections).
As I pointed out above, the more meaningful distinction appears to be between the World as the God wills it (or originally created it) and that which bruises the Onta. If you want to use the word 'mundane', I would suggest using it for the former. But anarcane ground is no less 'metaphysical' than anywhere else in Earwa. Does that make sense?

Quote
Everyone might have a connection the Outside but not everyone is affected in life by that connection, right?
To say someone is "unaffected in life" by their own soul seems nonsensical to me.

Quote
and we know from the TUC Ch. 1 Excerpt that the division is tricky - clearly some aspects of cognition don't in fact carry over to your experience of soul later, marking an uneasy distinction between mind and soul again).
Hmm... I'm going to have to reread.

Seems like there are implications here for the damnation or otherwise of amnesiac Nonmen?

Speaking of which, I've had the strange thought bouncing around in my head lately that the amnesia of the Erratics might have originally been intentional, devised as a method of "hiding their Voices".

Anyway, I think it'd be helpful if people defined their terms (my inner Confucian is rearing its head again ;) ). What exactly do you guys mean when you say 'mundane', 'psychological', 'soul', 'mind', 'metaphysical', etc. in the context of discussing how Earwa works.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on January 31, 2014, 01:04:40 pm
People here appear to be drawing the dividing line between what would be real in our world and what would be impossible in our world, ignoring the fact that both are equally 'real' in Earwa. That makes no sense to me. It feels just the same as when people try to explain things like the owlbear from D&D in terms of evolution by natural selection, or try to work out the chemical composition of wildfire from aSoIaF.

Speaking for myself (obviously), I'm going to roll with a kind of soft 'real-worldness' to Earwa - otherwise, I'd be entirely on board with you (which, honestly, I mostly am). Because the Tekne (Science), right? Because of Kellhus and the Dunyain? Because FB's question matters in terms of how the Nonmen coming to be in a world like you describe?

Quote
We have the ability to see the whole picture as it exists within Earwa.
That statement seems completely at odds with how Bakker writes. I don't think we ever see "the whole picture". I think filling in the 'gaps' with how things would be in our world is a mistake.

You don't think some of the gaps can be filled with how things would be in our world - this actually doesn't make sense to me. Obviously, we're always going to be surprised by the fantastical aspects used as explanation because I don't have Bakker's imagination, at least.

I can grok this, Duskweaver - but clearly the World is mundane in some senses (read: comparable to our flerwed anachronist projections).
As I pointed out above, the more meaningful distinction appears to be between the World as the God wills it (or originally created it) and that which bruises the Onta. If you want to use the word 'mundane', I would suggest using it for the former. But anarcane ground is no less 'metaphysical' than anywhere else in Earwa. Does that make sense?

Sure - that is one mechanism by which reality in Earwa functions operates?

Quote
Everyone might have a connection the Outside but not everyone is affected in life by that connection, right?
To say someone is "unaffected in life" by their own soul seems nonsensical to me.

If "the bead doesn't break" your physiology is going to be "unaffected" at baseline, so on average as much as the next person's. It's possible that the Outside and its inhabitants completely determine a person's perceptual experience and internal states and while this is partially how things work - is it really the only frame to use for every explanatory situation?

Quote
and we know from the TUC Ch. 1 Excerpt that the division is tricky - clearly some aspects of cognition don't in fact carry over to your experience of soul later, marking an uneasy distinction between mind and soul again).
Hmm... I'm going to have to reread.

Seems like there are implications here for the damnation or otherwise of amnesiac Nonmen?

(click to show/hide)

I would say absolutely to your query but I can't fathom the implications.

Anyway, I think it'd be helpful if people defined their terms (my inner Confucian is rearing its head again ;) ). What exactly do you guys mean when you say 'mundane', 'psychological', 'soul', 'mind', 'metaphysical', etc. in the context of discussing how Earwa works.

Well, Dusky, approximately I mean:

mundane - as pertaining to matter and it being the mechanism by which a phenomena occurs (otherwise how can the Tekne function unless, as was suggested somewhere across these recent threads, animism then Soul-Technology but non-ensoulled things again suggests a kind of soft materialism in Earwa).

psychological - (agreeing with your distinction that 'mind,' per say is irrelevant) psychological is 'real-world' subject matter projected on Earwa but which is mediated by the soul and its connection to the brain and the brain, not the brain alone - otherwise how can Kellhus dominate people so? Though again, I will agree that Kellhus can very likely see some physiological or behaviorial residue of the soul's connection to the body like he reads emotions.

soul - that part of the Outside that protrudes into the World from the Outside through the body; in Earwa replaces some (or all - in which case, I have no dispute with Duskweaver) of a bodies' normal physiological function. Otherwise, the closest approximation is a description from Plato but I think I'll have to pull out my book to actually find it - online is not helping me. The idea is that all-souls exist after and before death and birth in a one-soul form somewhere: the Pool of Souls. This could be the entirety of the Outside or only the distributed or collective human souls within the Outside.

mind - the part of Earwan physiological function which can be explained by the mechanics of cognitive science as known in our world. Since there is definitely the soul-Outside protrusion occurring in Earwa, I'll continue to posit soft materialism and that projecting some of our real-world knowledge onto Earwa explains some of normal Earwan physiological function.

metaphysical - pertaining to or dependent upon the soul-Outside projection intrusion to exist (like the No-God somehow stops the World from being metaphysical, in a sense - or at least highjacks, disrupts, or replaces the normal connection).

For my part, anyhow ;).

EDIT: And to preempt. You can suggest that "God Wills It" is the first cause, most antecedent antecedent, etc, etc BUT I will then say that God Wills It borrowing mechanism from our world ;).
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on January 31, 2014, 05:03:32 pm
To me, Dusk, your line of logic seems to say that we cannot discuss Earwa because our reality exists differently than theirs. Since we are not within the story, all we can do is listen.  Gaps exist within the story that are left there on purpose, by Bakker, for the reader to ponder. I believe we are having some severe communication issues.

Privileged perspective: As the reader we get to be inside of multi brains. We see connections between events, histories, thoughts, and actions from across all time/space that the characters simply cannot see. For example, we have been inside the mind of Kellhu, inside the thoughts of Yatwer (a God!), and within the thoughts of Nonmen. No one character has had all of these experiences, and we have had so much more. We are uniquely suited to solve the mysteries of TSA like no one within possibly could.
I think that most the inhabitants are almost entirely ignorant of how their own universe works. They know almost nothing of gods, magic, souls, nonmen, inchoroi, and history. They don't even know why their customs exist, how they came to be, or why they still do them. There are plenty of characters that know some of each of those subject, but the reader has been inside the minds of nearly every one of these. I think that this combination of thoughts that we alone have allow us to make educated guesses about the inner workings of Earwa's machinations that those inside simply cannot.


Physical/Metaphysical, Mundane/Magical: To me, the same things. Everything in the Bakkerverse is a spectrum. The Outside exists in such a way that "reality" is almost entirely subjective. Those with power can make "reality" bend to their desire. Earwa is at the opposite end of the spectrum, where "reality" exists as mostly objective, meaning that even the powerful must obey the laws (or some of them). There even exists, within Earwa, Anarcane ground, which even the most powerful must obey all the laws, you could say this place is what reality in Earwa is supposed to be.

Schoolmen and Gods use metaphysics (or magic) or alter the physical (mundane) world from what it is supposed to be (objective reality) to what they wish it to be (subjective reality)

To me, saying that there is no distinction between the two is silly. Clearly anyone standing within the Anarcane ground, and a God within its realm of power in the Outside, are distinctly different. I see no problem drawing a line there.


I never intend to suggest that the way our world exists somehow reflects Earwa. I don't think I've ever said something like "magic isn't real IRL, so there is no magic in Earwa". I also never really thought that anyone has tried to impose such logic on this forum, or if they have I've missed it.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: locke on January 31, 2014, 08:33:53 pm
Quote
psychological - (agreeing with your distinction that 'mind,' per say is irrelevant) psychological is 'real-world' subject matter projected on Earwa but which is mediated by the soul and its connection to the brain and the brain, not the brain alone - otherwise how can Kellhus dominate people so?

How?  Easy.

Kellhus is deluded, and other people's perception of him is correct.

The Dunyain, with no knowledge of soul metaphysics, have built an elaborate (and false) physical architecture to explain the insights they get through soul metaphysics.

In other words, Kellhus does not read faces, this is just an elaborate delusion that has been built into him, a delusion of mastery.  Kellhus in fact reads souls--as everyone who encounters him believes he does--and since Kellhus is incapable of believing he is wrong, he never questions his underlying assumptions (that he is reading faces), he never questions the vocablulary, the language that was inscribed onto him and conditioned into him. 

Moenghus figured out that his eyes were a mechanism of control, and to truly see what comes before and read souls without the illusions seeing forced upon by the Dunyain he had to go blind.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Somnambulist on January 31, 2014, 11:08:31 pm
Quote
psychological - (agreeing with your distinction that 'mind,' per say is irrelevant) psychological is 'real-world' subject matter projected on Earwa but which is mediated by the soul and its connection to the brain and the brain, not the brain alone - otherwise how can Kellhus dominate people so?

How?  Easy.

Kellhus is deluded, and other people's perception of him is correct.

The Dunyain, with no knowledge of soul metaphysics, have built an elaborate (and false) physical architecture to explain the insights they get through soul metaphysics.

In other words, Kellhus does not read faces, this is just an elaborate delusion that has been built into him, a delusion of mastery.  Kellhus in fact reads souls--as everyone who encounters him believes he does--and since Kellhus is incapable of believing he is wrong, he never questions his underlying assumptions (that he is reading faces), he never questions the vocablulary, the language that was inscribed onto him and conditioned into him. 

Moenghus figured out that his eyes were a mechanism of control, and to truly see what comes before and read souls without the illusions seeing forced upon by the Dunyain he had to go blind.

LIKE
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: locke on January 31, 2014, 11:27:56 pm
I'm kind of in love with the idea at the moment, we're in idea-honeymoon phase.  It's such a simple and completely elegant reversal.  Kellhus was wrong the entire time.  The whole time he spent gloating to himself about how deceived everyone was and how superior to them he was, all that time, he was the deceived one, and they were right, knowing more about him than he knew about himself.  It completely upends all readerly expectations, and it would make you completely reinterpret most of the text without changing any of the protagonist antagonist structures or beliefs, it makes you see Earwa and its characters in a new light while alienating the reader from kellhus and his blinkered limitations.  It makes the ubermensch less than a mensch. :)

btw. It works with BBT as well.  Kellhus gets an instant, FTL, read of someone's thoughts inscribed upon their soul.  this bypasses his consciousness and then tells him that he saw x, y, z in someone's face's muscle twitches, because this is what Kellhus expects to believe, that is what he believes, but it's all just pre-conscious--a darkness--happening BEFORE he gets to believe he had a conscious thought.

I feel like there is a connection in the above paragraph that should cause it to fit with the No-God is reverse-agnosia as well, but I'm not sure how to connect the dots.

If Kellhus has been reading souls and not faces, and the whole face reading thing was just a delusion of his consciousness, then I also feel like that fits in with Serwe's heart and Ent's explanation, what Kellhus does in pulling out the heart bypasses his consciousness exactly as his soul reading bypasses his consciousness, it's a thing he does without his consciousness getting it.  Note how his conscious mind thinks it is separate from his bodies action preceding the event, and note that his conscious mind explicitly does not mention Serwe's heart as an example miracle to Moenghus.  It is an event that challenges and shatters his own notions of himself, so he avoids thinking about it, like Akka avoiding thinking about how he got Inrau damned, or Esme avoiding thinking about that she sold Mimara to slavery; classic human failure.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on February 01, 2014, 12:56:38 am
Lol. +1, lockesnow. I like how you ran with that.

I can't say that the narrative completely validates your nerdanel but it's as coherent and supported as most.

We shall have to see what happens... I do like the "Kellhus will be borne out wrong" types of hypotheses but I have a strange feeling that TSA ends more like Neuropath than Lord of the Rings.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on February 01, 2014, 04:26:18 am
... but I have a strange feeling that TSA ends more like Neuropath than Lord of the Rings.
I imagine I can't ask how Neuropath ends without it being ruined...
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on February 01, 2014, 01:41:17 pm
Not my interpretation of it, no. It's pretty bleak. But exactly fits the standard mold of the genre. Except for Frankie, I guess.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: mrganondorf on February 11, 2014, 09:55:20 pm
I read too fast and misunderstood the initial post initially and thought that this bit

"Aorsi (zsoronga, proyas, kayutas) - first effects of eating sranc"

was referring to ancient Aorsi.  They were stalwarts against the evil north, despite being sparesly populated because they ate sranc?  Really I think someone else said this and I'm just repeating it -- whoever you are, your words are echoing through my soul
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: mrganondorf on March 11, 2014, 04:49:14 pm
Any ideas on the side effects of eathing Bashrag/dragon?  Different/same?
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on March 11, 2014, 06:54:49 pm
My vote is for different. Every weapon race was created from a different template, and would have significantly different 'genetic code', leading to different results when consumed. Also, effects might differ depending on the species doing the consuming as well.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: mrganondorf on March 19, 2014, 04:51:53 pm
Whatever the side effects of eating sranc, Kellhus is going to be conditioning a lot of warriors to eat things with nonman faces.  Will he have the Great Ordeal simply EAT Ishterebinth?
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: SkiesOfAzel on March 19, 2014, 05:00:13 pm
Any ideas on the side effects of eathing Bashrag/dragon?  Different/same?

If i had to guess i'd say they definitely give you gas.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: mrganondorf on March 19, 2014, 05:12:25 pm
This is how the Great Ordeal dies--eating sranc gives you bad mud butt.  Diarrhea before Dagliash!

Seriously, perhaps eating sranc is a real threat to the Consult (will make the Great Ordeal unstoppable battle madness) so that's why they made the critters so obscene, to create an insurmountable taboo.  Then Kellhus starved his men till eating sranc sounded like a good idea!
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: locke on March 20, 2014, 01:56:26 am
Any ideas on the side effects of eathing Bashrag/dragon?  Different/same?

If i had to guess i'd say they definitely give you gas.
sranc would be sulferous, wouldn't they? 

It'd be sort of amazing if the meat itself were yellowish when cooked because of that.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on March 20, 2014, 09:43:57 am
That is one sad notation - Bakker changed the colouring of dead Sranc between TDTCB and WLW.

It seems so strange that once humans warred against each other when all the world is Sranc ;).

I'm still hoping for Zombie Ordeal :).

This is TUC. It's time to get weird.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: SkiesOfAzel on March 20, 2014, 02:53:19 pm
This is TUC. It's time to get weird.

Yea i agree, if something is missing from this series till now, its weirdness :P.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: mrganondorf on March 20, 2014, 03:16:26 pm
This is TUC. It's time to get weird.

Yea i agree, if something is missing from this series till now, its weirdness :P.

The final scene is a musical including cross-dressing Inchoroi, sranc dressed up as bronies, the great ordeal synchronized swimming in neleost, and the no-god pumping out dubstep.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: locke on March 20, 2014, 03:35:38 pm
That is one sad notation - Bakker changed the colouring of dead Sranc between TDTCB and WLW.


? from what to what?
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on March 20, 2014, 09:03:34 pm
I will have to give it a look. I had thought they'd changed from purple/black in TDTCB to white in WLW (it seems so long since Men have warred against Sranc).

Perhaps (hopefully), I am wrong.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Somnambulist on March 20, 2014, 10:33:23 pm
I will have to give it a look. I had thought they'd changed from purple/black in TDTCB to white in WLW (it seems so long since Men have warred against Sranc).

Perhaps (hopefully), I am wrong.

I'm throwing my (faulty) remembrance behind you, here.  I think I remember that, as well.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on March 21, 2014, 10:07:59 am
Lol. Oh, Gall. That is basically the worst thing you can do for us :P. I can't seem to find the quote in WLW that led me to believe that he changed them to dead-white - I can't think of anywhere dead Sranc are looked upon - and I actually found evidence in WLW that he still describes them as dead-purple.

Hmm... Maybe I have the wrong TDTCB quote in my head.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Cüréthañ on March 22, 2014, 05:06:39 am
Live ones are pale white, as are non men as I recall it...
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Somnambulist on March 22, 2014, 02:12:39 pm
Lol. Oh, Gall. That is basically the worst thing you can do for us :P

Lol not the first time I've heard that.  I need to sell my ambiguous support statements more.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: mrganondorf on March 22, 2014, 08:42:46 pm
All this sranc flesh color talk got me thinking: as soon as the Consult know that the Great Ordeal are eating them, they'll probably take a few and fill their bellies with poison/disease for the men to eat!
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on March 27, 2014, 12:54:39 pm
I think they have always been purple/black.

Check WLW scenes post battles, maybe Sorweel POV. Also, skin-eaters scalping.

In PoN check the scene that Cnaiur discovers Kellhus.

BTW a recently dead sranc could still be white, but turn purple/black after some time decomposing.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: mrganondorf on March 27, 2014, 01:46:45 pm
Another side-effect of eating sranc: increased lust.  This won't be a problem really relative to swayali/non-sorcerers, but it could be a problem otherwise.  Sorcerers lusting after sorcerers (whatever gender) could get messy.  Actually, rethinking the swayali/non-sorcerer part, if a witch wants congress who knows what kind of destruction she could inflict on because of or as a byproduct of sranc lust.  I'm not saying that all this stuff will undo the Great Ordeal, I'm sure Kellhus has already taken it into account and probably already run extensive research in this direction.  I bet that's why he had Fatwall reclaimed.

Plus, eating sranc could push the Great Ordeal's sexual interests into a morbid direction.

IF Kellhus is going to eat sranc too (which I think unlikely) it would show solidarity and it might give him an edge in terms of an increased lust for violence, if he has already calculated that some personal battle madness is necessary to break the Consult.

Wonder if we'll get to a moment when the GO has eaten so much sranc and become so crazy that the sranc hoard is like "fuck this shit, I'm outa here."
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Madness on March 27, 2014, 09:40:28 pm
When men fuck Sranc.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on March 28, 2014, 05:21:08 pm
Of Sranc and Men.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: locke on March 29, 2014, 09:12:20 pm

IF Kellhus is going to eat sranc too (which I think unlikely) it would show solidarity and it might give him an edge in terms of an increased lust for violence, if he has already calculated that some personal battle madness is necessary to break the Consult.

on another note, when Kellhus and Esmenet come out of the desert in the Warrior prophet, they bathe together.  Esmenet notes that Kellhus suffered no privations in the desert that everyone else did, he remained hearty and hale.  When they bathe together, a stain of dried blood washes out of his beard.

possible conclusion, Kellhus was eating some people.  Either he preyed on them in secret, or he persuaded them to let him eat them.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on March 31, 2014, 03:59:45 am
At what point in the journey is this? IIRC I chalked that up to people, lots of people, surrendering their rations to him.. but I don't remember when that scene took place. Also, its possible Esmi was both delusional from malnutrition deluded by Kellhus' "greatness".

But he would not be above eating people... gross. Maybe eating people has strange metaphysical side effects.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: locke on March 31, 2014, 06:27:16 am
I'd find the scene, but amazon is being a dictator and won't let me launch my perfectly working kindle application on my computer. they want me to update it, which I don't want to do. Fucking software companies.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: mrganondorf on March 31, 2014, 11:29:16 am
At what point in the journey is this? IIRC I chalked that up to people, lots of people, surrendering their rations to him.. but I don't remember when that scene took place. Also, its possible Esmi was both delusional from malnutrition deluded by Kellhus' "greatness".

But he would not be above eating people... gross. Maybe eating people has strange metaphysical side effects.

Violation of the second law!
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on March 31, 2014, 12:40:22 pm
I'd find the scene, but amazon is being a dictator and won't let me launch my perfectly working kindle application on my computer. they want me to update it, which I don't want to do. Fucking software companies.

I should be able to find it later if I stop being lazy.

I hate it when programs update their formats. Its always a losing battle, and eventually you are forced to switch. About 4 months ago my gf was on my computer and she wanted to play music.... so she updated my iTunes to the most recent version. I had been avoiding updating it since like 2009. I think since then I've used it 2 times because I hate the format so much lol. So yeah, I feel your pain.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Alia on March 31, 2014, 01:06:49 pm
I think I've found the quote, it's Chapter 20, Caraskand:
Quote
He laughed, pawed at her face as though embarrassed, and she caught and kissed his sun-haloed palm … The waters that trailed from the flaxen ringlets of his hair and beard had been brown—the colour of dried blood.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: locke on March 31, 2014, 03:53:41 pm
that's the quote.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Cüréthañ on April 04, 2014, 02:08:52 pm
What will the nonmen think of men eating sranc?

I think perhaps Kellhus plans on exterminating the remaining non-men at Dagliash anyway.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on April 04, 2014, 02:58:51 pm
I think perhaps Kellhus plans on exterminating the remaining non-men at Dagliash anyway.
That is an interesting perspective. Why would he want them all dead? To difficult to control/manipulate?
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Cüréthañ on April 04, 2014, 03:08:42 pm
Just been re-reading the Cleric sections of AE.  I'll make a longer post explaining my reasoning tomorrow, if I have time.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: mrganondorf on July 01, 2014, 04:40:00 pm
I wonder if eating sranc will make the Great Ordeal want to eat the things that sranc eat: worms and stuff in the dirt?  Since the sranc cannibalize their own dead, the Great Ordeal will not only be eating the dead srancs but also starving the living!  Not very much, but it could have an effect on the sranc closest to the ordeal.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on July 01, 2014, 07:12:25 pm
It will at least provide less food for any sranc trailing in the Ordeal's wake.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: mrganondorf on July 02, 2014, 01:38:26 am
It will at least provide less food for any sranc trailing in the Ordeal's wake.

Jesus, i didn't think about it, but this is going to be a thing.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: mrganondorf on September 06, 2014, 12:25:50 am
I'm starting to think that eating sranc won't be a big deal.  I think Kellhus would have tested it thouroughly with all his trackers and outposts, like at Fatwall.  Of course he couldn't have tested what would happen if Mog awakes.  Perhaps a steady sranc diet leads to moderate increases in lust and violence but no more.

Also, I gotta think that the Stone Hags or any company that was out too long would have eaten sranc.  So whatever the effects, its not so crazy that they aren't too unlike the Stone Hags we meet.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on September 11, 2014, 02:20:37 pm
I'm not so sure about that. Eating sranc has likely been taboo since the breaking of the gates. 4000 years of prohibition is difficult to overcome, even in the event of near death experiences. I think it would take someone like Kellhus to convince people to commit that conceived atrocity.

Though, it may turn out not to be a big deal. Another example of baseless dogma being overturned.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: EkyannusIII on September 11, 2014, 04:41:20 pm
Though, it may turn out not to be a big deal. Another example of baseless dogma being overturned.

Moral revulsion at what the sranc are - unnatural rape goblins - is hardly baseless.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Cüréthañ on September 12, 2014, 05:49:15 am
Well, at least the logistics officers of the great ordeal now know why they have been lugging wagon trains filled with tomato sauce all this way.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on September 12, 2014, 06:12:49 pm
Baseless in terms of TDTCB. We don't we sranc because our ancestors didn't eat sranc.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Cüréthañ on September 12, 2014, 10:59:21 pm
We don't we sranc because it's not on the menu at McDunyains.
FTFY
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: mrganondorf on September 24, 2014, 04:14:37 pm
have we talked about the poop yet?  i'm not sure, but would an all meat diet make you really constipated eventually? something like that in the life of pi???

wonder what the properties of poop from consumed sranc would have for crops

while we're at it, the sranc might not leave their bodies behind what with cannibalizing their own, but the buttmud of millions of these things is going to be hard on the great ordeal's boots--and it's always right in front of their path, no matter which way they turn; poop and earth gouged for worms and such
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on September 24, 2014, 07:35:37 pm
The Inchoroi wanted to preserve the world. Maybe sranc droppings are actually extremely effective fertilizer.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: mrganondorf on September 24, 2014, 08:02:23 pm
and peepee too!
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: dragharrow on November 06, 2014, 08:53:58 pm
Hey guys, whats up?

Hope I’m not too late for this topic. I want to jump in on the debate over metaphysics in Earwa and also the Kellhus is deluded thing.

First, I'm trying to get a handle on what you guys are arguing about related to metaphysics.
… In our world, we can speak of 'metaphysics' as something dealing with the soul that we don't believe in except as a metaphor, contrasted with the biological mechanism that is the body and the mind it fools itself into thinking it possesses. To the characters in tSA, though, there's no distinction, just as there wasn't to our own ancestors (and this is the point I think Bakker is trying to make throughout the series). In a sense, there's no such thing as 'metaphysics' to Earwans; it's all just 'physics'. The soul and sorcery and life after death are as real to them as rocks and trees and human bodies. Analysing Earwa from a 21st century scientific-materialist perspective is, IMO, a fundamental error.

But metaphysics is a thing to some Earwans. And the same goes for our ancestors.

Look at the philosophers of Earwa. Ajencis, for example, wrote books called The Commerce of Souls, Meta-analytics, and Theophysics. It seems very clear that those three books would all at least touch on metaphysical inquiry.

If Ajencis can analyze the metaphysics of Earwa then can’t we do that same?

The soul and sorcery and life after death are as real to them as rocks and trees and human bodies. Analysing Earwa from a 21st century scientific-materialist perspective is, IMO, a fundamental error.

Your implication is that the distinction between the two is a directly connected with our frame or even that metaphysics itself is a product of our frame. Metaphysics is not a product of the scientific-materialist frame. It is within the domain of the philosophical frame. How can you even have physics without the possibility of metaphysics?
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: dragharrow on November 06, 2014, 08:57:58 pm
Ok, so I was trying to write more but when I went back to reread posts I kept getting super confused.

I’m having trouble parsing out your usages of the term metaphysical. You disagree on the specific implications of the term but you all seem to be using the term in similar ways. From what I gather, you are using the word metaphysics to refer to something along the lines of the “the nature of the spiritual”. Am I interpreting you correctly? If so, I think that is way too narrow of a definition. I’ve only ever heard the term used to refer to the philosophical domain called metaphysics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics)

In philosophy metaphysics is not the mechanics of the non-physical/spiritual specifically. Its more like the mechanics of the pre-physical. It is interested in the nature of the most fundamental features of reality. What is the ultimate nature of reality? What is it like? Why?

So the metaphysics of Earwa do define the mechanics of the spiritual but its broader than that. Together, all of the first order laws that govern the reality of Earwa make up the metaphysical system of Earwa.

Is the way you guys use the term the common meaning of it here?
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: locke on November 07, 2014, 06:40:35 am
Most people use metaphysical in the former way not the latter.  I had some philosophy classes but they didnt delve into metaphysics in the traditional sense.  I only grok what youre saying about metaphysics because we talked about schelling and naturphilosophie in a history of  biology class.

All typ0s courtesy of Samsung.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: mrganondorf on November 16, 2014, 07:43:32 pm
drahharrow! i think i'm missing something! is this metaphysics + sranc meat something something?
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on November 18, 2014, 03:38:16 pm
Most people use metaphysical in the former way not the latter. 

Its a terminology that has arisen around here after some month/years of speculation and conversation. Its likely not "technically" correct, but this is what its used ;).
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: dragharrow on November 20, 2014, 07:31:01 pm
drahharrow! i think i'm missing something! is this metaphysics + sranc meat something something?

I got lost in semantics so I never really said anything of note. I'll try and fix what I was going to say though at some point.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: geoint on December 29, 2014, 11:23:11 pm
At what point in the journey is this? IIRC I chalked that up to people, lots of people, surrendering their rations to him.. but I don't remember when that scene took place. Also, its possible Esmi was both delusional from malnutrition deluded by Kellhus' "greatness".

But he would not be above eating people... gross. Maybe eating people has strange metaphysical side effects.

Violation of the second law!

Hey if it means everybody in the GO is now immortal, everybody wins.  Except the Consult, and the sranc.  Those poor sranc.  They thought they had it bad before?

I like Abercrombie's books.


Forgot which page it was on, but the guy who said, 'men who fuck sranc' made me LOL in real life.  Good stuff :)
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on December 30, 2014, 01:27:30 pm
Forgot which page it was on, but the guy who said, 'men who fuck sranc' made me LOL in real life.  Good stuff :)
Cut from them their genitals, for they makes pits of their seed.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: mrganondorf on December 31, 2014, 08:18:29 pm
At what point in the journey is this? IIRC I chalked that up to people, lots of people, surrendering their rations to him.. but I don't remember when that scene took place. Also, its possible Esmi was both delusional from malnutrition deluded by Kellhus' "greatness".

But he would not be above eating people... gross. Maybe eating people has strange metaphysical side effects.

Violation of the second law!

Hey if it means everybody in the GO is now immortal, everybody wins.  Except the Consult, and the sranc.  Those poor sranc.  They thought they had it bad before?

I like Abercrombie's books.


Forgot which page it was on, but the guy who said, 'men who fuck sranc' made me LOL in real life.  Good stuff :)

woah, eating sranc lenghtens your life like a nonman?  interesting!  maybe we'll get a story from Proyas like 200 years later telling his great-great-great-greats what really happened when the Great Ordeal reached the Ark
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Francis Buck on January 09, 2015, 08:11:20 pm
I still stand by my idea that eating Sranc will similar but short-term effects to Qirri, possibly even stronger than Qirri, with much worse long-term effects.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: SilentRoamer on January 13, 2015, 08:22:38 pm
I wonder if Sranc a la Carte was always the intended menu for the Great Ordeal. I think maybe so.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: SilentRoamer on January 13, 2015, 08:25:11 pm
In fact scrap that - he definetely planned it. Shady Kellhus probably had the numbers nailed to exactly the critical point.

Definetely something interesting and probably awful will happen. :)
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on January 14, 2015, 04:12:29 am
To add, he likely planned on rejoin the armies once one got wiped out, split them up so that the loss of one wouldn't be too devistating, as long as it wasn't his (all the critical things under his care). He knew he couldn't get them all there, and might have figured that that the Consult mght have outsmarted one of his plans and/or generals, unfor seen ambushes, etc  .
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: EkyannusIII on January 14, 2015, 10:53:07 pm
Fine points.  I would add that the one army that is destroyed was the one populated by Nilnameshii and backed by the Vokalati, who were the factions most recently added to the Empire and thus the least tamed elements of Kellhus' forces.  It's the Vulgar Holy War all over again.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: mrganondorf on January 14, 2015, 11:26:17 pm
Fine points.  I would add that the one army that is destroyed was the one populated by Nilnameshii and backed by the Vokalati, who were the factions most recently added to the Empire and thus the least tamed elements of Kellhus' forces.  It's the Vulgar Holy War all over again.

totally!  and maybe we'll see something like the Carathay blood-letting when they cross Agongorea, i'm hoping
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Simas Polchias on January 23, 2015, 10:46:23 pm
If we compare earwan ground with an organism and inchoroi landing with a disease, eating sranc could be a vaccination in so many ways — from the pure metaphysical to the very mundane. And of course only Akkeägni knows how tempting it is to use word "graft" instead of "vaccine" here. 

My favourite guess now is Kellhus who prepares his people for the atrocities of Golgottherath by cajoling them to dabble in the similar atrocities (lest they all go mad through more sudden and unfriendly familiarization).

Also a side thought. Do we clearly know that the Womb Plague was gender WMD? Considering the unceasing badassness of our pale giants, it could be the weakest who actually died (all nonwomen, all nonchildren, all nonoldmen & all faint nonmen). So as a second guess Kellhus culls the weak, sharpening his ordeal with improvised methods.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: The Sharmat on February 02, 2015, 07:19:38 am
Fine points.  I would add that the one army that is destroyed was the one populated by Nilnameshii and backed by the Vokalati, who were the factions most recently added to the Empire and thus the least tamed elements of Kellhus' forces.  It's the Vulgar Holy War all over again.
I believe it was also the army the Mandate was traveling with. And that this particular disaster resulted in the bulk of the Mandate being killed, including their Grandmaster (the first human ever to perform a meta-gnostic cant). Given that the Mandate are the school most suited to fighting the Consult...this is a critical loss. Of course the Consult probably knew the disposition of forces. Kellhus and his progeny can spot Skin-Spies, but they cannot personally inspect every single soldier in their quarter-of-a-million strong army. They've got to have informants among the rank and file.

Whether this is a genuine blunder by Kellhus, a calculated loss as part of some greater game, or just bad luck...that's hard to say.

Also I just had the rather disturbing realization that my role in most discussions on this board has been as a Consult cheerleader.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on February 05, 2015, 04:10:07 pm
Simas Polchias:
- I like that visual of organism/disease, and Kellhus preparing the Ordeal for the true atrocities ahead is also great.

- I'm not sure if we have any direct correlation to the Womb Plague and the death of anyone other than the mothers (and their stillborn children, but I suspect something metaphysical with that)


The Sharmat:
The Consult need love too :P. Your more playing devils advocate than just cheerleading the Consult. There is a reason Kellhus spent decades planning this assault, and it wasn't because the Consult are a foe he plans to beat easily.

I'd argue that the Mandate, while important, are the 'old guard' if you will. Schoolmen from yesteryear, sworn to Seswatha and no-one else. Might be that Kellhus thought they were a bit of a wild card.

Below is kind of tangential and only loosely ties back to some of your statements. It doesn't really fit into "side effects of eating sranc" but I'll drop it here anyway:

The text is conflicting about how much of the school was destroyed, but certain the lose of the Grandmaster was devastating as he was likely far and away the strongest. I still think, though, that everything of vital importance is held fast to Kellhus, making his army, those generals, and the Swayali, the most key pieces. The rest, I think, are more or less pawns, or  maybe even rooks/knights, but still all pieces he is willing to gamble.

The Consult wouldn't dare send their first big surprise directly into Kellhus' arms, and both Kellhus and the Consult know this. So if not Kellhus, destroying the army full of their old enemy, the Mandate, who also appear to be the strongest schoolmen, is a great 2nd choice. Sure, the other army protected by the anagogic schoolmen would have been a softer target, but they aren't really concerned with losses. For maximum damage before they release the big guns, getting rid of the Mandate is certainly worth the cause.

Kellhus probably wasn't able to predict how/when/where the Consult would try to launch a surprise assault, so he needed to bait them into doing it in a controlled way. I think Kellhus sequestered away whatever secrets he couldn't hide within his grasp in the other in-tact army.

I'm going to guess that the anagogic schools, which have been dismissed in everyone's minds as inferior, have taught something of extreme power by Kellhus. Whether he has given them the gnosis, or the means to developing their own, or some kind of meta-diamos, or anagogic-gnostic hybrid, I think they are a surprise waiting to happen. What better place to hide a secret weapon than with those that no one believes are capable of wielding it?
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Somnambulist on February 05, 2015, 04:27:44 pm
Off-topic but relating to Saccarees...  The Mandate Grandmaster didn't die in the attack.  He survived as did both some of the Mandati and Vokalati sorcerers.  They weren't all wiped out.  Carindusu, the Vokalati Grandmaster, was indeed slain by Saccarees.  It was stated later that when the armies got back together after the disaster, Saccarees was (paraphrasing) weathering the political fallout from having killed Carindusu.  Their Schools weren't destroyed, but rather lost so many sorcerers of rank they basically lost status as major/preeminent Schools.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: The Sharmat on February 06, 2015, 04:35:14 am
I stand corrected. Still, a substantial loss. Aurang must have laughed when he saw the degree of success the little surprise achieved.

I suppose it's possible Kellhus has likewise secreted some trump card with the otherwise quite weakened Scarlet Spires. He has studied the Daimos quite closely with Iyokus, hasn't he?

Wilshire: I don't know if it's common to the Swayali as a whole, but Serwa at least has touched Seswatha's heart. So I suppose there's that, in terms of Mandate knowledge.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on February 06, 2015, 01:57:37 pm
Kellhus claimed that he alone wields the Gnosis and hasn't touched the heart. I just put very little stock in anything that he says.

Certainly Serwa has, since it would likely be important to have Dunyain with the dreams, but im not sure about the others.

I kind of forgot about this... it somewhat diminishes my point, but I think it still stands. A new branch of Gnostic magi would be less steeped in tradition superstitions, and less beholden to Seswatha, even if they all did have the dreams.



Thanks Somna, for the correction. I could have sworn that Saccarees.

If Saccarees survived, under the direct assault of nearly half the vokalati, its seems likely to me that the majority of the most powerful Mandati survived.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: mrganondorf on June 02, 2015, 06:51:10 pm
Simas Polchias:
- I like that visual of organism/disease, and Kellhus preparing the Ordeal for the true atrocities ahead is also great.

- I'm not sure if we have any direct correlation to the Womb Plague and the death of anyone other than the mothers (and their stillborn children, but I suspect something metaphysical with that)


The Sharmat:
The Consult need love too :P. Your more playing devils advocate than just cheerleading the Consult. There is a reason Kellhus spent decades planning this assault, and it wasn't because the Consult are a foe he plans to beat easily.

I'd argue that the Mandate, while important, are the 'old guard' if you will. Schoolmen from yesteryear, sworn to Seswatha and no-one else. Might be that Kellhus thought they were a bit of a wild card.

Below is kind of tangential and only loosely ties back to some of your statements. It doesn't really fit into "side effects of eating sranc" but I'll drop it here anyway:

The text is conflicting about how much of the school was destroyed, but certain the lose of the Grandmaster was devastating as he was likely far and away the strongest. I still think, though, that everything of vital importance is held fast to Kellhus, making his army, those generals, and the Swayali, the most key pieces. The rest, I think, are more or less pawns, or  maybe even rooks/knights, but still all pieces he is willing to gamble.

The Consult wouldn't dare send their first big surprise directly into Kellhus' arms, and both Kellhus and the Consult know this. So if not Kellhus, destroying the army full of their old enemy, the Mandate, who also appear to be the strongest schoolmen, is a great 2nd choice. Sure, the other army protected by the anagogic schoolmen would have been a softer target, but they aren't really concerned with losses. For maximum damage before they release the big guns, getting rid of the Mandate is certainly worth the cause.

Kellhus probably wasn't able to predict how/when/where the Consult would try to launch a surprise assault, so he needed to bait them into doing it in a controlled way. I think Kellhus sequestered away whatever secrets he couldn't hide within his grasp in the other in-tact army.

I'm going to guess that the anagogic schools, which have been dismissed in everyone's minds as inferior, have taught something of extreme power by Kellhus. Whether he has given them the gnosis, or the means to developing their own, or some kind of meta-diamos, or anagogic-gnostic hybrid, I think they are a surprise waiting to happen. What better place to hide a secret weapon than with those that no one believes are capable of wielding it?

i think the Consult made a somewhat predictable move (from Kellhus' POV) by attacking the one army that was dragging the sranc horde on it's flank.  i think Kellhus must have seen something like this coming--that one army was the most exposed of all 4 and was one of the smaller 2 armies

i really like what you said about maybe the anagogic schools will end up being more powerful.  maybe the gnosis can't do the daimos, so you have to use the anagogis to summon demons/gods.  if that is the case, maybe the daimos really IS more powerful than the gnosis when you have Kellhus as a teacher!
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: dragharrow on June 04, 2015, 12:32:19 pm
I'd argue that the Mandate, while important, are the 'old guard' if you will. Schoolmen from yesteryear, sworn to Seswatha and no-one else. Might be that Kellhus thought they were a bit of a wild card.

I don't know, theoretically the mandati should be more useful and more reliable than the other schools (excluding the witches). Seswatha didn't just create the heart in order to guard the gnosis. He did it to make sure that there would always be an elite school of sorcerer prepared to fight the consult. The dream's have programmed them with a single minded devotion to to the cause. More importantly, the dreams serve to essentially train them for the brutal ordeal of a war against the consult. Night after night the heart has run them through battle drills. Familiarizing them with their enemy and their enemies tactics. Preparing them for the consult's atrocities so that they won't be horrified when they face them. Running their souls through simulations of combat over and over and over.

They have all been programmed to be soldiers in this war. They, more than any others, know what it feels like to stand against the consult. When the time comes they wont be able to do anything else but fight bravely, they've done it countless times and now it is second nature to them. Seswatha has done the closest thing to providing Kellhus with a "blooded" school. The next best thing to having sorcerers who have actually fought the consult before.

I think Kellhus actually says this in the first trilogy. He says that the dunyain believed that the function of dreams was to prepare the soul for situations it had not yet encountered.

That all assumes that Seswatha's intentions aren't completely beyond our understanding obviously. I know he's a liar but it does seem that in this at least his intentions were sincere.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on June 04, 2015, 12:58:29 pm
Great post dragharrow. Lots of things for me to consider...

I don't know, theoretically the mandati should be more useful and more reliable than the other schools (excluding the witches).
In the grand scheme, the only schools that really matter, from the information we have right now, are the two gnostic schools. The Anagogic schools are largely irrelevant.

Seswatha didn't just create the heart in order to guard the gnosis.  He did it to make sure that there would always be an elite school of sorcerer prepared to fight the consult.
More importantly, I think he created it as a way to avoid dying. Regardless, it was built to maintain the memory of the Consult and to jealously guard the secrets of the gnosis. If Seswatha wanted elite sorcerers, he would have made it such that the Mandate could give the secrets of the gnosis to others. If the three seas was filled with legions of Gnosi, they'd be far better off than with some 50ish Mandate schoolmen of the rank.

The dream's have programmed them with a single minded devotion to to the cause.
Which is a huge problem, not an asset, if "the cause" that Seswatha was after is not exactly 100% identical to Kellhus' plans. To me, this seems very unlikely.

More importantly, the dreams serve to essentially train them for the brutal ordeal of a war against the consult. Night after night the heart has run them through battle drills. Familiarizing them with their enemy and their enemies tactics. Preparing them for the consult's atrocities so that they won't be horrified when they face them. Running their souls through simulations of combat over and over and over. They have all been programmed to be soldiers in this war. They, more than any others, know what it feels like to stand against the consult. When the time comes they wont be able to do anything else but fight bravely, they've done it countless times and now it is second nature to them. Seswatha has done the closest thing to providing Kellhus with a "blooded" school. The next best thing to having sorcerers who have actually fought the consult before.

This is maybe something small to be considered, but not a huge deal. Big picture, the Mandate make up a tiny portion of the war and their experience was more important before the march began. They were built to be teachers. Now that the Ordeal has marched, they are a liability, for they have no flexibility of thought. They cannot conceive of a Consult that is different than what they have dreamed every night for their entire lives.

I think Kellhus actually says this in the first trilogy. He says that the dunyain believed that the function of dreams was to prepare the soul for situations it had not yet encountered.
I think you might be correct, but I can't remember the context. They have been prepared, but I think too rigidly, with too much tradition, too much inefficiency, too much allegiance to another. They represent more of a liability and a danger to Kellhus than the tactical advantages they may offer, most of which have already been used at this point anyway.

Kellhus doesn't need someone elses soldiers, he's perfectly capable of making his own. If he thought the Mandate was all that he was going to need, he wouldn't have created the Swayali, and he wouldn't have sent them to one of the smaller armies prone to being attacked, so far away that he was unable to get there in time to save most of them from disaster.


That all assumes that Seswatha's intentions aren't completely beyond our understanding obviously. I know he's a liar but it does seem that in this at least his intentions were sincere.
We are told that Seswatha's intentions are to destroy the Consult. I believe this to be true absolutely, however I don't think that this has to be his only objective. Even if it were, Seswatha was no super-human intellect. Not the product of  2000 years of genetic selection. Even if the Mandate where purely a tool be the most efficient way to destroy the Consult through the ages, it is still a human plan. Kellhus needs Kellhus' plans. His own school, his own mysticism, and because the Mandate cannot be fully extracted from their own darkness that comes before, they must be made irrelevent, if not destroyed entirely.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: dragharrow on June 04, 2015, 04:00:48 pm
We are told that Seswatha's intentions are to destroy the Consult. I believe this to be true absolutely, however I don't think that this has to be his only objective. Even if it were, Seswatha was no super-human intellect. Not the product of  2000 years of genetic selection. Even if the Mandate where purely a tool be the most efficient way to destroy the Consult through the ages, it is still a human plan. Kellhus needs Kellhus' plans. His own school, his own mysticism, and because the Mandate cannot be fully extracted from their own darkness that comes before, they must be made irrelevent, if not destroyed entirely.

Has Kellhus ever done that? That doesn't sound like him to me.

It might make sense from a dunyain perspective to destroy any agents that you cannot absolutely dominate and predict but Kellhus isn't dunyain. He has never really adhered to that protocol. He picks up Cnaur right away and hangs out with him for most of the first trilogy. Cnaur is dangerous, unstable, and due to the influence of Moe, it is clear that Kellhus could never own him completely. He is perfectly happy to take over huge systems that his father has carefully created. He lets Akka live, despite the fact that Akka know the truth and is simultaneously becoming the avatar of Seswatha. The biggest example is his kids, Moe kills his defective children (presumably) , Kellhus lets them all live. Even the one with a demon in his head.

Kellhus doesn't usually worry about prior corruption by other forces. He is too arrogant. He believes that he can put everything to use. The influence of other major players just gives him more to stuff to play with.

That said, I actually didn't mean to imply that I thought Kellhus lost part of the mandate by accident. I'm sure he had his reasons. I just think they represent way more of a useful tool than a hazard. The seswatha stuff is all upside from Kellhus's perspective, even if seswatha and Kellhus have opposite ultimate goals. Kellhus thinks he can just play around that, or put it to good use.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: dragharrow on June 04, 2015, 05:00:59 pm
More importantly, I think he created it as a way to avoid dying.
Yeah, I think this is very possible. The dreams serve a bunch of purposes. They're clearly doing something new to Akka. And from that we have proof that Seswathas a damn liar, so I wouldn't put anything past him.

Quote
Regardless, it was built to maintain the memory of the Consult and to jealously guard the secrets of the gnosis. If Seswatha wanted elite sorcerers, he would have made it such that the Mandate could give the secrets of the gnosis to others. If the three seas was filled with legions of Gnosi, they'd be far better off than with some 50ish Mandate schoolmen of the rank.
He did. You just have to be a member of the few and willing to touch the Heart. Whatever ulterior motives he definitely had, this makes sense. He wanted to keep the people with the Gnosis focused on the Consult and ready to actually fight. I think they serve all these purposes.

Also, Seswatha at least claimed that touching the Heart to receive the Gnosis was a temporary measure. Akka says that they are only supposed to guard the Gnosis until the Consult returns. Then they're supposed to distribute their weaponry freely. I could totally see that being a lie told by Seswatha but I had assumed that the reason the Gnosis was still not being distributed freely was a choice by Kellhus.

Quote
More importantly, the dreams serve to essentially train them for the brutal ordeal of a war against the consult. Night after night the heart has run them through battle drills... Seswatha has done the closest thing to providing Kellhus with a "blooded" school. The next best thing to having sorcerers who have actually fought the consult before.
This is maybe something small to be considered, but not a huge deal.
I disagree. Arming and training men isn't enough. Experience is invaluable. The Quya have been doing this millennia. The dream's aren't a perfect replacement for having actual professional soldiers, but they are a lot better than nothing. The other schoolmen are basically academics. At best, they have played the role of artillery. They have very little experience fighting other human magi. Zero experience fighting Quya or dragons. And they are soft. They've never seen anything like what the consult is capable of.

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Big picture, the Mandate make up a tiny portion of the war and their experience was more important before the march began.
The mandate might make up a tiny portion of the war if you include Mundane humans but in terms of relevance they are a substantial portion Kellhus' army. The mundane humans are just a vessel to protect the schoolmen and deliver them to the battlefield. Ultimately, the schoolmen are the army.

Quote
They were built to be teachers.
Maybe. To me the mechanics of the dreams seem like they are exactly what you would make if you wanted to create fanatic sleeper soldiers. They focus on big battles (some of which Ses didn't even attend) and the horrors of war. Seswatha fighting dragons . Fighting Quya. Being captured by Mek. And then they drill them every night.

Look at Akka. When he was kidnapped by the scarlet spires and tortured, he leaned on the dreams to get through it. He had already been trained for that situation and was unphased. The same will happen when the first mage battles start. The other mages will be unprepared and they will fold. The mandate will follow Kellhus' orders to the end. I think thats useful
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: dragharrow on June 04, 2015, 05:47:24 pm
I still stand by my idea that eating Sranc will similar but short-term effects to Qirri, possibly even stronger than Qirri, with much worse long-term effects.
Sranc are to Meth as Qirri is to Adderal? I dig it.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on June 04, 2015, 06:25:54 pm
Good rebuttals all,  dragharrow. I'm not convinced, but I haven't anything else to bring forth.

Quote
Also, Seswatha at least claimed that touching the Heart to receive the Gnosis was a temporary measure. Akka says that they are only supposed to guard the Gnosis until the Consult returns. Then they're supposed to distribute their weaponry freely. I could totally see that being a lie told by Seswatha but I had assumed that the reason the Gnosis was still not being distributed freely was a choice by Kellhus.
If thats true (I don't remember that being said), then it may point to either Kellhus or the Mandate not wanting the gnosis to be free. Like you said, probably Kellhus, but even without him I'd say it wouldnt be released. Men guard nothing so jealously as power.
Also, it does point out that maybe Seswatha did care for the World.

Quote
Look at Akka. When he was kidnapped by the scarlet spires and tortured, he leaned on the dreams to get through it. He had already been trained for that situation and was unphased. The same will happen when the first mage battles start. The other mages will be unprepared and they will fold. The mandate will follow Kellhus' orders to the end. I think thats useful
While I think this scene was showing us that Seswatha may be more alive than we were led to believe, I think there is something of vital importance here. Post torture, during the escape, Akka goes what amounts to super-saiyan (and/or Avatar state), briefly becoming more powerful than he ever could have been on his own. If all the Mandati could be triggered into this state during a full scale battle, they'd be even more extreme of a force to be reckoned with.

Maybe Kellhus was counting on this and it didn't happen, he expected them to go into the Seswatha State under the extreme pressure of a devastating surpise attack, for long enough for him to come to their aide, and certainly long enough for most of the Mandate to survive pretty much any onslaught.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: dragharrow on June 08, 2015, 11:07:11 am
Good rebuttals all,  dragharrow. I'm not convinced, but I haven't anything else to bring forth.
Thanks. Whatever the case is, I agree with you that the disaster and the deaths of those mandati were not a mistake. Kellhus had a larger plan or at least saw it as strategically necessary.

Quote
Quote
Also, Seswatha at least claimed that touching the Heart to receive the Gnosis was a temporary measure.
If thats true (I don't remember that being said), then it may point to either Kellhus or the Mandate not wanting the gnosis to be free. Like you said, probably Kellhus, but even without him I'd say it wouldnt be released. Men guard nothing so jealously as power.
Also, it does point out that maybe Seswatha did care for the World.
I'll look for it. Not that it proves anything.

Quote
While I think this scene was showing us that Seswatha may be more alive than we were led to believe, I think there is something of vital importance here.
I think it shows that as well. It isn't just that they've been trained to be soldiers but they've also been imprinted with something of Seswatha himself. Maybe a lot of Seswatha.

Quote
Post torture, during the escape, Akka goes what amounts to super-saiyan (and/or Avatar state), briefly becoming more powerful than he ever could have been on his own. If all the Mandati could be triggered into this state during a full scale battle, they'd be even more extreme of a force to be reckoned with.
Lol, well said. I think it is possible that a similar state could be triggered in any mandate sorcerer but I doubt it is likely that any carry Seswatha's power to such a great degree. Or, alternatively, most lack the raw power to replicate the feat regardless of channeling Seswatha.

Quote
Maybe Kellhus was counting on this and it didn't happen, he expected them to go into the Seswatha State under the extreme pressure of a devastating surpise attack, for long enough for him to come to their aide, and certainly long enough for most of the Mandate to survive pretty much any onslaught.
Hmm maybe. I think Kellhus understands the nature of the Seswatha imprint well enough that he wouldn't make that mistake. He has had unlimited access to the mandate since the time of his ascension to the throne as well as a personal knowledge of Akka. I think he is probably aware of whether it is possible to trigger the Seswatha-State in any other of the mandati and if so, what kinds of triggers that requires.

On top of that, I am hesitant to accept any evidence in favor of the "Locke position" or the argument that Kellus is massively deluded and fallible. There's too much evidence for that already lol
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on June 08, 2015, 12:48:16 pm
Haha, the "Locke position", love it and fully agree. Whatever the resolution, it won't be so clean cut.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: dragharrow on June 09, 2015, 07:50:42 am
Quote
If thats true (I don't remember that being said), then it may point to either Kellhus or the Mandate not wanting the gnosis to be free. Like you said, probably Kellhus, but even without him I'd say it wouldnt be released. Men guard nothing so jealously as power.
Also, it does point out that maybe Seswatha did care for the World.

Here is the passage I had in mind. I think Seswatha saying this may have been referred to at another point as well but I'm not sure.

It's in the warrior prophet before Akka has been captured. He is on the way to the library I think.

Quote
Do I teach him the Gnosis?

To his gut he balked at the notion—the mere thought of surrendering the Gnosis to someone outside his School made him blanch. He wasn’t even sure he could teach Kellhus the Gnosis, even if he desired. His knowledge of the Gnosis was the one thing he shared with Seswatha, whose imprint owned every movement of his slumbering soul.
Will you let me? Do you see what I see?

Never—never!—in the history of their School had a sorcerer of rank betrayed the Gnosis. Only the Gnosis had allowed the Mandate to survive. Only the Gnosis had allowed them to carry Seswatha’s war through the millennia. Lose it, and they became no more than a Minor School. His brothers, Achamian knew, would fight themselves to extinction to prevent that from happening. They would hunt both of them without relenting, and they would kill them if they could. They would not listen to reasons … And the name, Drusas Achamian, would become a curse in the dark halls of Atyersus.

But what was this other than greed or jealousy? The Second Apocalypse was imminent. Hadn’t the time come to arm all the Three Seas? Hadn’t Seswatha himself bid them share their arsenal before the shadow fell?

He had …

And wouldn’t this make Achamian the most faithful of all Mandate Schoolmen?

I don't know what this means for my argument but it's interesting.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on June 09, 2015, 12:46:22 pm
Ah, nice. Then there must have been some instruction or intent to share the gnosis eventually. Might have been that the Seswatha homonulus thought that the Mandate would have become a major school and thus the dissemination of the gnosis would not have meant their destruction. Like Akka mentions, without a monopoloy  on the gnosis they would be a minor school, so they and Seswatha cannot risk giving it up.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Bolivar on June 09, 2015, 06:56:41 pm
Wondering if they're going to share it with the rest of the Great Ordeal sorcerers if/when they reach Golgotterath or maybe even Dagliash.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on June 10, 2015, 01:58:43 am
Sounds like too little too late. High Kunna and Gilcunya are probably too disparate linguistically for Anagogic sorcerers to pick it up that quickly.  And honing the semantic purity of meaning is what gives the Gnosis its bite.  It would, theoretically, take years for trained Anagogic sorcerers to attune their minds to the Gnosis and then be able to dispense it for combat purposes.

Maybe Kellhus can neuropuncture them to Gnostichood.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on June 10, 2015, 12:28:42 pm
Oh yeah. At this point, unless they already have it and have been training with it for years, its far too late.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Quinthane on January 09, 2016, 10:28:29 pm
it'll give you sranc-breath.


and possibly Sranchitis.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on January 19, 2016, 07:23:23 pm
iand possibly Sranchitis.
I like this one in particular
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Quinthane on January 20, 2016, 03:49:56 pm
iand possibly Sranchitis.
I like this one in particular

Oh no nooooo Wil. 'ware the sranchitis. what with the loss of skin pigmentation and the constant erections....it's nasty stuff. may also cause dry mouth.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: EkyannusIII on February 24, 2016, 05:17:26 pm
You grow
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Blackstone on February 26, 2016, 06:48:50 pm
Perhaps it turns the men of the GO into a mindless weapons race that Kellhus can control. I find it hard to believe that Kellhus didn't test it out beforehand. He's had 20 years to prepare for this.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on February 29, 2016, 04:11:14 pm
My thoughts exactly.

Kellhus' very own gibbering multitudes speaking with his voice. Imagine that meta-gnostic concert ;)
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: mrganondorf on April 01, 2016, 06:05:52 am
@ Wilshire/dragharrow - As far as the Mandate taking a big his at the end of WLW, I mean that's got to be either a mistake on Kellhus' part or he is deliberately exposing the Mandate to harm.  For the first option--It could be that he calculated a low probability of harm to the Mandate and maybe a reasonable decision to send them.  At first glance, that seems more likely than deliberately exposing the Mandate to harm.  Those (along with the Swayali) are his hands down number one weapons to get to Golgotterath and overcome the Consult.  I can't imagine that he would deliberately expose them unless he is gambling on showing a mask of weakness to the Consult to get them to move to hasty.  It would be a Dunyain thing to do to lure the Consult into thinking that they will be able snuff out the GO and thus leave themselves open to some kind of lateral attack, but the risk!  The risk!

It could be that Kellhus' power level is so far off the charts, that he really doesn't need the Mandate or any of the other schools.  It would be a hell of a lot of power and two decades of war to unite the three seas, create the GO, and march north BUT no ruse is beyond a Dunyain.  The whole point of the GO might be nothing more than to prevent Kellhus from having to show his hand until he gets really really close to the Consult. 

There were three times during the Holy War that Bakker had the Fanim show one army in order to conceal another.  Which is to say, that might not be just one of the Fanim's favorite tricks, it might be one of Bakker's too.  Possibly the Great Ordeal is the one lesser army hiding the greater army: Kellhus alone.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: MSJ on April 01, 2016, 12:35:04 pm
On eating Sranc. Kellhus already knows what is going to happen, right? You know damn well he made a few Scalpers go on a Sranc diet. There is zero chance he pulled this out of nowhere, even if he didn't think they would have to. He won't though, he'll transport back to some city close and have dinner, wine and a few concubines.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: H on April 01, 2016, 12:51:34 pm
On eating Sranc. Kellhus already knows what is going to happen, right? You know damn well he made a few Scalpers go on a Sranc diet. There is zero chance he pulled this out of nowhere, even if he didn't think they would have to. He won't though, he'll transport back to some city close and have dinner, wine and a few concubines.

One would think so...and yet, that odd part of the blurb:

Quote
But in light of dwindling supplies, the Aspect-Emperor’s decision to allow his men to consume the flesh of fallen Sranc could have consequences even He couldn’t have foreseen.

"Could have" consequences?  If there were no consequences, why even say anything?  I guess we'll soon see...
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Blackstone on April 01, 2016, 02:29:17 pm
Ha ha. I think the blurb is something cooked up by the publisher to make us wonder. I have to assume Kellhus saw this eventuality and prepared for it.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Wilshire on April 01, 2016, 06:59:50 pm
"Could have" may also imply that Kellhus either did, or did not, foresee these consequences that may or may not in fact exist.
I'm with Blackstone on this one.
Title: Re: Side Effects of Eating Sranc
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 09, 2016, 11:39:19 am
Those blurbs are written by add people, not the writer.  They exist to try and hook your attention.  Of course Kelhous arranged to have prisoners and volunteers eat Sranc and had the effects studied, but it is possible that those effects will interact with some secret of the Consult or conditions in the north that he didn't forsee.