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Messages - ThoughtsOfThelli

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31
I heavily dispute all of those claims. The Judging Eye, while uncommon, is not unheard of. Mimara's prophet status lives only in her head (note that no one else calls her a prophet in-universe), and at this point I'm much more of a mind to consider her crazy as opposed to special. Silver halos are completely unconfirmed, they are not specifically referred as such in the books, are seen only in a very strange vision with the Judging Eye active, are not compared in-universe to the golden ones Kellhus has, and, lastly, might easily just be a quirk of light of perception. Like a distortion indicating that what Mimara sees is actually a vision of some kind, and not her actual reflection.

It's not unheard of (though it's sort of an obscure thing), sure, but while I stand by what I said, I didn't mean she was the only one who was a prophet or saw herself with silver halos. For all we know, the other women with the JE might have been the same.
Okay, this might come down to a matter of interpretation/opinion, as I said before. What I said in my last post is only my opinion. I might, of course, be completely wrong. I can see where you're coming from with your arguments against the points I made.
But I think we can't completely discard the silver halos as being only in Mimara's head/a trick of the light/whatever. There was also that tapestry that she finds in TUC that mirrors what she saw in the vision with the silver halos (almost?) perfectly. I know that may be flimsy evidence (Mimara could just be subconsciously remembering the tapestry, etc.). Yet I think it still shows that the silver halos weren't an isolated incident, and don't think the tapestry came into play for no reason. Sure, no one except Mimara ever saw the silver halos, but I don't think the ones in the vision or in the tapestry were there just as a random detail. Also, I didn't mean Kellhus' halos were compared to Mimara's in-universe. I wasn't too clear on that, but I was mostly basing that part on an out-of-universe opinion (that has yet to be proven right or wrong in the series).
If I remember correctly, Achamian also thinks of Mimara as a prophet a few times, so it's not just her referring to herself as such. Now, this probably doesn't mean much to your argument (he could be as mentally unstable as you claim Mimara might be), but there's that.
Also, in the series, it is said that a prophet speaks with the God's voice, and delivers the word of the God to Men. Mimara (and every single woman who had the JE) sees with the God's Eyes. I'm not claiming this is true - I'm saying that's what the JE is regarded as, in-universe. (Whether actually true or not in universe, it's not something that applies only to Mimara.) Kellhus pretended to speak with the God's voice and bring the word of God to Men, since the very beginning, as we all know. Following from the general assumption of what the JE is (again, not only restricted to Mimara), is it that much of a stretch to assume that someone with it could be considered a prophet? When speaking of what they see with the JE, they would indeed be bringing the word of the God to Men.


Also, what I meant by stating that evidence first should be presented that she is, in fact, different is best illustrated by an example. There is nothing ruling out the possibility of Mimara being an alien hybrid inserted in the narrative because Ridley Scott paid Bakker big bucks to do so, which incidentally explains all of her special abilities (Ridley Scott gets his money's worth, and also, alien science!). Now, this is, obviously, a ridiculous claim, but it is supported by the lack of evidence to the contrary, instead of any evidence of it actually being so. This is why I always come very opposed to the idea of such unsupported claims. They aren't based on anything objective, anything that can be reviewed by others, they only have an idea or a gut feeling behind them. There is no productive discussion to be had in such circumstances.

I don't think anything of what I said regarding Mimara was that outrageous. I think your example was a bit too much considering that everything that I said was either something already acknowledged out-of- or in-universe (if only by Mimara herself in the latter case), but fine. The last thing I wanted to do was to put an end to a potentially interesting discussion with my claims, so if it came across like that, I apologize.


Now, this is indisputable. But it's an out-of-universe thing instead of an in-universe one. It's something important to us readers, but it shouldn't - and hopefully doesn't - have any bearing on the plot or setting of the series.

I never tried to imply this had any bearing in-universe. It's the way Mimara is special to us, like you said, and separate from what might be going on in-universe. I was just trying to address the out-of-universe as well as the in-universe angle there.

32
General Earwa / Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
« on: June 08, 2018, 06:58:26 pm »
This thread really made me wonder if being taken in by one of the Gods after death qualifies as "saved" for the Judging Eye.

I wonder if there is a middle ground between "damned" and "saved" (or a different category altogether?), because it would make sense in the cases of those people taken to specific Gods' corners of the Outside.

33
I don't think it's luck, but I also don't think Kellhus could know what to actually select for.

Luck, Conditioned Ground, divine intervention, whatever you want to call it. I mean, he chose Esmenet for a reason, sure, but he could have been wrong. He certainly was with those other women, which may have appeared like very promising candidates to bear healthy half-Dûnyain children at first.
And he wouldn't exactly know what to select for, but he did have a general idea (as we see with the intellect factor). I think diversity, like I mentioned in my first post, was also something that would make sense (in addition to the intellect).
Something else occurred to me: while I'm not sure if Kellhus knew about the half-Scylvendi child Moënghus had with Cnaiür's mother (I don't think so, but I could be wrong?), I think that if he did, he would have chosen a Scylvendi woman as one of his concubines as well (there was a Scylvendi hostage from the Akkunihor tribe in the Company of Scions, it's not that much of a stretch).


Remember that Mimara is also spectacularly special and that has nothing to do with Kellhus.  So, Esmenet is just special of her own right.  She, similar to biblical Mary, is the entrance point of god into Eärwa, but then twisted as the entrance point of the No-God.

A good point, but I still think Kellhus could have had, say, one concubine who happened to produce one viable child (and probably some deformed ones as well) and that wouldn't have diminished Esmenet's special status that much. She gave birth to six non-deformed half-Dûnyain children, which was still quite a feat.
This part of your post brought to mind a TUC quote that can apply nicely here:
Quote from: TUC, Chapter 13
And he understood how profoundly it had mangled her, being the human portal for the emergence of inhuman souls, loving what could only manipulate her in turn.
People can say what they want about Esmenet and her children, but there's definitely no denying the fact that all of them are/were quite remarkable.


I don't think Mimara is inherently more special than any other woman with the Judging Eye. Mimara might have gotten further in using it, but that is a question of experience.

I think we just don't know, and probably will never know. Mimara is special. She sees with the God's own Eye, she is the true prophet and is confirmed as being holy (those silver halos, compared to Kellhus' golden ones). Now, we could assume that other women throughout history who had the JE were holy prophetesses as well, but it could go either way, really. We just don't have enough information to go on here.
What is special about Mimara when compared to other women with the JE is that she is the one that we see in the story, the one whose POV we have, the one who was there to witness the beginning of the Second Apocalypse (and who will definitely have an important role to play in the future).


Well, yes, still we have no idea how common it is to have the Judging Eye.  And, even so, Mimara is "different" in that we are related the idea that all women who have the Eye fail to birth live children, yet Mimara does.  We also don't know if others who have had the Eye were in the same boat as Mimara, having always had it even before being pregnant.

We really don't, and I would love to know more (even if I've grudgingly accepted that we probably never will). I always assumed it wasn't very common, but it had to be common enough for people to recognize it as an actual supernatural phenomenon that manifests itself in women that will be pregnant (and give birth to stillborn children) at some point in their lives. (I have the headcanon that there is only one woman with the JE living at any given time, but, of course, there's zero evidence to support that.)
Given the atemporal nature of the Gods, it would make sense that other women with the JE throughout history would have had the Eye before they became pregnant as well. It's possible that Akka just didn't know that, as he did tell Mimara he didn't know that much about the JE.
Mimara giving birth to a live child may indicate that there is something extra special about her aside from having the JE. Though, to be fair, if the JE is still fairly rare, it could be that all other women known to have possessed it only gave birth to singletons, and never multiples. (I think that the average probability of a twin pregnancy is like 1 in 80, so it wouldn't be too implausible?)


Actually, it was specifically phrased as something like "always birth dead children". Which she did. The fact that she had twins, one of who wasn't stillborn, doesn't negate the stated and fulfilled condition for having the Eye.

See what I speculated above, it's very possible that the JE is rare enough that no one actually knew what would happen if a woman who had it gave birth to twins (or higher order multiples).


When we're talking about other women with the Judging Eye, there is no reason to consider them any different from Mimara, no evidence to the contrary is present in the books. Since formally evidence first needs to be found, the argument about other women possibly being different is inherently weak. Though I'll admit this formal method pertains more to the real world than to fiction.

There's no evidence to suggest that Mimara isn't any different, but there's no evidence to suggest Mimara isn't somewhat more special either. I think that (as of now, at least) it comes down to what you believe to be true about Mimara and the JE.
Honestly, any of us could come up with different theories about the JE and there would be little, if any, evidence for or against them. I, for one, will just stick to what I said before, that Mimara is special because of proximity, and because of the specific time in history she is living in, if nothing else. (It does makes me wonder if there was any woman with the JE alive at the time of the First Apocalypse, and who she/they was/were.)

34
Imho, id say he chose them based off of intellect. That's why he chose Esme, so we're told.

I meant besides intellect. ;) You'd think Kellhus would have had some more criteria at least for some of those concubines.

Also, he was incredibly lucky he managed to find Esmenet so early on, those other women had the intellect marker too and look at how that turned out (allegedly, at least...). Amazing "luck" (or...intervention from someone?) is nothing new for Kellhus, though.

35
Alright, I don't know if this is a topic that anyone besides myself has any interest in, but here we go. I have discussed these characters before, and have even recently speculated that one of them might have been Conphas' half-sister in one of the reread threads.
The thing is, as it has been brought up many times before, unlike Moënghus, Kellhus was definitely not limited in the choice of worldborn women he could have children with. As Aspect-Emperor of the Three Seas, he could have made virtually any woman he happened to think had the potential for giving birth to viable (if not balanced) half-Dûnyain children into one of his concubines. Yet Esmenet only refers to seventeen concubines, which seems like a small number for someone in Kellhus' position. Especially when you consider all the children these seventeen women gave birth to were (allegedly) stillborn and/or severely deformed. Maybe he thought that the children he managed to have with Esmenet would be enough to help accomplish his Thousandfold Thought.
However, you have to consider that Kellhus only had two children who, in Maithanet's words, "expressed balance", with Thelli being useful in her own way despite her issues, and Inrilatas being completely unsuitable for any of his plans (I'm not counting Kelmomas and Samarmas here, as it appears Kellhus started searching for suitable concubines quite a bit before they were born). Accidents can happen to anyone, and no matter how resilient half-Dûnyain are, he was still in a precarious position if he really thought he needed to have at least a few balanced children around. Serwa, in particular, was even more valuable than a regular balanced half-Dûnyain, given her status as one of the Few.

So, the first point I wanted to bring up here for speculation is: how did Kellhus actually choose these concubines? Was he making a choice based only on "native intellect" (which seems to be a marker of potential Dûnyain-compatible genetics), as Esmenet says? It seems likely that there would be other criteria. I think that Kellhus' best bet here (intellect aside) would be to go for maximum diversity, and not just, say, choose intelligent women from the former Nansur Empire. Seems like that would broaden the chance of at least one of them having genetics compatible with those of Dûnyain. I actually wonder if he did choose at least one from wherever Maithanet was from (supposedly either Nilnamesh or Cingulat), since Moënghus had found a woman capable of bearing a healthy and stable half-Dûnyain child in that region. And how likely is it that at least one of these concubines was of the Few? You'd think Kellhus would also want to maximize his chances of having another child who would grow up to be a future powerful mage. (Yes, I know he needed every Few woman he could to be part of the Great Ordeal later on, but there would be still be women of the Few who had never actually become witches and were too old to be trained at the time of the Swayal Compact.)

Second point of speculation (perhaps verging on crackpot territory): do you think one (or more) of Kellhus' children by his concubines could still be around? Now, Esmenet seems to think that all of the children Kellhus fathered, aside from (six of) hers, were either (apparently?) stillborn or killed shortly after birth due to their deformities. But we all know Kellhus had a history of hiding things from Esmenet. It doesn't seem that implausible that one or more (though definitely not many) of the concubines' children survived, and were kept hidden from Esmenet (and maybe even their half-siblings) for some unknown purpose. We already saw a previously unknown child of Kellhus appear in the story, and speculation about Moënghus' other children goes on to this day. Would this really be that much of a stretch?

36
The No-God / Re: The Heart
« on: June 06, 2018, 02:16:27 pm »
Great quotes.  I think there is definitely something to his work and soul manipulation.  I do believe that Skuthula is probably telling the truth though.  Why bother to lie?  I think it's likely that after a millenia hiding in the Forge, Emilidis was probably well and Erratic.  Since he couldn't actually kill himself, what better way to get dead than to walk directly into the Intrinsic Gate?

With all these hints, there has to be. And rereading chapters where the Heart and the Dreams are mentioned make the whole Amiolas/double soul connection much more apparent in retrospect (I'll touch on that a bit in my chapter 9 comment).
Maybe the whole fact that Skuthula is...well, Skuthula makes me immediately dismiss everything he says. You do have a point there, with Emilidis possibly committing "suicide by dragon", much the same way Sorweel considers that Oinaral committed suicide the only way a Nonman could. Still, it's kind of infuriating to think that this fascinating and mysterious character might have been killed by the least impressive dragon ever.
Or maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part and I actually want Emilidis to be alive and make an appearance later - I don't know, it's not entirely rational.

37
The No-God / Re: The Heart
« on: June 06, 2018, 11:45:34 am »
Hmm, makes me wonder, if he hated them all, then made the Amiolas so that no one could forget what made it what it is, then did all the rest have the same sort of cost?  In other words, were all his "miraculous" works made from trapping souls or somehow otherwise exploiting them?  Perhaps this is what made his works different?  He learned to forge things imbued with souls...

That's a likely possibility. With that in mind, other passages about Emilidis become even more interesting on a second (or third, etc.) read:

Quote from: TUC Glossary, "Amiolas"
The genius of Emilidis was primarily metaphysical: he grasped the continuity of meaning and souls, how a sorcerous understanding of Ihrimsû entailed a sorcerous unification of disparate souls. Inventing new forms of sorcery as he proceeded, Emilidis imbued his helm with the soul of Immiriccas Cinialrig, the infamous Malcontent, an Injori Ishroi condemned to die by Cû'jara Cinmoi, and given the choice by Nil'giccas between risking the Hells or dwelling forever as an amputated, interpreting soul.

Quote from: TUC Glossary, "Emilidis"
His greatest works, or Sublime Contrivances, exhibit miraculous reworkings of nature itself, be it the twisting of down sideways with the Immaculate Rim (Orimuril), or the spawning of day (as opposed to merely light) with the Diurnal, or the recombination of souls with the Amiolas. Though other Contrivers have managed to create artifacts immune to Chorae, Emilidis is unparalleled in that all his creations, from the merest dagger to the famed Day Lantern, exhibit such immunity. Mandate scholars cite this as why Nil'giccas charged him with raising the Barricades high upon the Upright Horn--what would prove to be his final, and most tragically flawed, work. The Legendary Artisan retreated from both the World and the historical record after this, admitting only private petitioners to his Foundry in the Qûlnimil.

There are many things that could be discussed here, but for now I'm just going to say that that last sentence may help fuel some more speculation on the ultimate fate of Emilidis. If he did retreat to his foundry (apparently permanently) after raising the Barricades, it does seem that Skuthula is in fact just lying/bragging about having eaten him (not that I gave much credit to his claims in the first place). The glossary does give list him as dead, but that may be because everyone actually believes this to be true, we have no actual credible evidence he did die.

38
General Earwa / Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
« on: June 05, 2018, 11:05:55 pm »
I thought something to that effect, or close enough, at the beginning of TUC...

I'll see if I can find it when I'm a bit more clear-headed (it's getting kind of late over here). ;)


Did you reread the chapter? There are some really great quotes in that chapter, can't wait 2 years til we get there!! You got the "99 stones and the type of birds he killed", which I think an allegory for the series in some way. And, "The Heaper of the Dead", which really got a shock from everyone. Overall, just jammed packed of good nuggets, like, I thought, everything in TGO.

Sadly, I didn't (yet), I was going on from your comments/quotes and what I remember from that chapter. I'm trying to resist skipping ahead in the reread and try to keep it at the 1 chapter/week pace, but TGO is so far away I might just have to reread it. (I'll probably have forgotten everything again by the time TGO comes along in the reread. :P)

39
The No-God / Re: The Heart
« on: June 05, 2018, 10:54:20 pm »
I like your posts ToT, been meaning to tell you.

Lol, the first time I read that through I thought you meant that Ses knew NC was a potential Mog before he was trapped in the Carapace.  That might suggest that Ses took NC with him to barter for the Heron Spear.  But that doesn't make any sense--why help create Mog that you need to destroy?  Tuesdays.

Thank you! :)

Oh, wow, that would make Seswatha an even shadier character than he already seems sometimes... Definitely a bad, bad decision to take a potential Insertant along in a trip to Golgotterath, part of a plan or not. Yet...it's Seswatha we're talking about. I can't completely put it past him.


I bet you are right about the way Ses' life ended, but I admit the NC Heart theory as an alternative.  I wonder if the general lack of sorcerers post-Apocalypse meant that Ses had to recruit from the anagogic ranks to create the Mandate?

Hmm, never considered that. It's very possible, if not probable. Or maybe there were few left but that was enough for the Mandate to get started (and most swelling of ranks happened after Seswatha's lifetime). Even in the modern day, they are not known for being a particularly large school, so I can see both possibilities being true.


I think it was the Amiolas that got me thinking that the Heart could be NC's.  I was thinking that the procedure might be rare and difficult (a category above a Wathi doll or the blank souls in the door to the library) and that the Nonmen might have taught it to Ses alone.  Hell, I guess it's even possible that the Heart is (in a sense) a Nonman artifact.  Maybe Seswatha was given something, like a dagger, that when used on his heart would create artifact needed for the Grasping.

Another good call - after learning about the Amiolas and Seswatha's repeated use of it in TAE, it seems very likely that there is a connection there. It would definitely be a very complicated rite to pull off (not to mention dangerous) and it's possible that only Seswatha's (apparently) noble intent (to prevent a Second Apocalypse) got the Nonmen who helped him to agree. Anyway, yes, now that you've brought it up, it's quite plausible that Qûya were involved in the creation of the Heart as we know it today.


But back to the Amiolas.  I was thinking along these lines--it's weird how the Malcontent is sort of 'respawned' or something everytime a new human has to wear it.  Like every human that visits Ishterebinth and wears the Special Hat, becomes a new, faint, little copy.  As in, the portion of soul in the Amiolas is not diminished when used.

So as the Maker put the Malcontent's soul in the Amiolas, Someone X (maybe a nonman) could but Ses' soul in NC's Heart (where another soul already resided).

I never thought that was that strange - Immiriccas' soul is part of the Amiolas, as much of a component as the material used to make it. It's a "fixed point", what varies is the soul of whoever is wearing it at the time. So it's always present and always able to seep into the consciousness of anyone who wears it. Granted, we don't know if Immiriccas' soul had an even more intense presence shortly after the Amiolas' creation. It's possible its strength diminished (very slowly) over time.

On Seswatha's soul - yes, it seems likely that if the Amiolas was the inspiration, this was what happened.


It would be kind of cool if NC get's revenge 2000 years later...maybe by killing New Mog, but maybe also by killing Aurax.

Apocalypse 2: The Revenge of Nau-Cayûti. 8)
Now (more) seriously, it would indeed be quite satisfying. I kind of wish Aurax would survive, though, but maybe it would be for the best for him to be put out of his misery. He hasn't been well for quite a while (and I think his mental deterioration was most likely already present when the Mutilated took over, even if they only intensified it).


Well, Seswatha would certainly have been familiar with the Amiolas, considering that he once wore it.  It wouldn't shock me if the Heart was actually another of Emilidis' creations, in the same ilk of the Amiolas.  In fact, Seswatha might never have died of any cause but being put into the Heart.  We don't actually know when Emilidis died.  Could have been after Seswatha, for all we know, means he could have made it.

I have to admit, the idea that it's NC's heart is neat and I like it for a number of reasons, not the least is how the No-God seems to be networked to soulless things and the Heart to souled things, but I don't know how probable it is.  Although the whole idea that the Consult recovered NC's body post-No God seems odd, but the whole Indigo Plague entry is suspicious as hell really.

As more and more of Emilidis' creations keep popping up in the series, it does sound very plausible. Our only piece of information about Emilidis' death, as SmilerLoki said, comes from Skuthula, who claims to have eaten him. Skuthula is not exactly the most trustworthy source, though. It still seems possibly for Emilidis to have created the Heart, or at the very least assisted in its creation.

Whatever happened to the body of the No-God 1.0 is indeed very suspicious. (And again tied to the whole idea that Seswatha is hiding/manipulating some truths.) Something strange happened at that time, that I'm pretty sure of. (Maybe a new thread about what happened to the No-God's remains and the Indigo Plague is in order?)


The only evidence that Emilidis did, in fact, die is provided by a cunny-loving dragon, who might not be particularly sane, for that matter. It's the whole pesky size thing.

Exactly. You can't trust anything Skuthula says, he's just not a reliable source. Of course, it's entirely possible Emilidis did in fact die before the events of the series, just not in the way Skuthula claims. Also possible that he's still around somewhere, just like Nil'giccas was at the beginning of TAE.


I wonder if he helped with the Carapace (both times).

That also seems like a not fully implausible possibility. I think it might have been inspired/influenced by some of his works even if he was not personally involved.
Do we know when the second Carapace was built? Was it shortly after the First Apocalypse ended, or was it a more recent thing?


I was thinking that the lore that the Consult recovered Mog's remains might just be made up, maybe by Ses.  It would be freaking chaos after Mog goes down.  Do the scranc revert to their previous state or slump over in temporary stunned state?  Any Consult members who do not immediately flee would have to worry about a laser beam.  I don't know that Anaxophus would be particularly worried about conserving the spear in that moment.  I find it unlikely that he would take a long view of a series of potential apocalypses.  It would be gosh-darn handy for blasting dragons, sky-chariots, quya, and Aurang.

The potential for Seswatha hiding/distorting many historical facts rears its head once again! I agree that he really could have done what he wanted at such a chaotic time and would have easily been able to hide that fact later on. Anaxophus himself (maybe conveniently?) died the following year, so he wouldn't have been around to contradict Seswatha's official version of events when he started making plans for the creation of the Heart.


If Ses is NC's father, that might be important when they met at Mengedda.  It might also foreshadow a moment when Esmenet speaks with the Whirlwind.  I wonder if Esmi could distract it (might be the only human Mog would even notice).  The whole idea that Mog says nothing but the same lines over and over is based on the limited amount of Ses recollections we've seen.  Mog could say other stuff.  He is a kind of singularity of ignorance forming a wall to the gods--their darkness that comes before, the always unknown, the unknown unknown constant the Mutilated talk about.  The thing Cleric talks about worshiping but from the Outside's pov.  I bet Bakker might want to put a few cool lines in Mog's mouth concerning all of that.

It's possible we could have some new dialogue from the No-God (if this does happen, I don't think it will be until later in TNG, though). And that's an interesting point you made about Esmenet. Surely, if the KelSammi soul inside still had some kind of perception of any kind (though...doubtful based on the No-God's apparent confusion?), he would react to Esmenet's presence in any way he could.


I love this MG. Its a great idea that accounts for Akka's dreams. Someone else had another theory on the dreams that Kellhus would take over the heart, I like that too.

As for this theory, I do have a little concern how Ses came upon the heart, as others have expressed. But, besides that its a great theory and would make for some interesting dreams for Akka, going forward.

I think Emidilis is around in some artifact.....somewhere. With as many sorcerous artifacts in his name, you'd think he made a loop/prison for his soul also. Good stuff!

H and MG do have good points about the circumstances of the recovery of the No-God's remains being quite suspicious, so I think it could work.

Emilidis seemed to have despised the Amiolas, so I don't think he would have placed his own soul in any of his other artifacts. We never know, though...

Quote from: TGO, Chapter 9
"Emilidis abhorred all his miraculous works," the Nonman finally said, "but none so much as the Amiolas. He made certain that no one could forget its nature."

Not even just the Amiolas, all of them, apparently! Which is intriguing, to say the least.

40
General Earwa / Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
« on: June 05, 2018, 08:38:47 pm »
And yea, its why Kellhus keeps Esme ignorant of what he does. Finds her pure, calls her the World. He knows its what saves you, and when Mimara looks on Esme, well, she's saved right?

I thought Serwë was the one referred to as "the World", was Esmenet ever called this? I honestly can't remember...


Ok, ill go a little more in depth so...(you're not scratching your head). ;)

A paragraph or two before that quote is this one. And, you have to know the Eye is open watching Koringhus through all of this.

Quote
The Survivor drew a sleeve across his hideousness, looked to him, his son. The Legion-within howled and clamoured, stamped and spit. Only now did he understand …
Ignorance. Only ignorance had sealed the interval between them. Only blindness, the wilful idiocy that was worldborn love.

Then directly after my first quote, scene cut, then this.

Quote
The Eye watches. Approves.

Now, remember before all of this Koringhus and every other Dûnyain is damned by the Eye. So, this is proof that whatever watches from Mimara, the Eye, the Cubit, the God, whatever you wanna call it, offers salvation. Koringhus went from damned to being approved, by Just understanding the Eye/Cubit. Its proof in my book, Qirri high or no...

ETA: in my book, Koringhus sees farther than Kellhus. Can see its his only chance at salvation, and makes the leap...the leap, that is his.

ETAA: not only understanding. The Eye sees that he loves his son, also. He has a heart, isn't just a ruthless Dûnyain. Take in the whole chapter: Demua Mountains, TGO and you'll get a better grasp at what happens.

I had completely forgotten that the JE had "approved" of Koringhus' realization. Then we do have proof that X person seen with it can appear different over time, change from regular damnation to "Ciphrang-level", from damned to saved, etc.
It's very tragic and yet heartwarming, Koringhus sees he has now been redeemed from the "Dûnyain original sin" and chooses to end his life right there, before he slips back into the damnation of his ancestors. He really is such a great character, even if he's just around for a couple of chapters.

41
General Earwa / Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
« on: June 04, 2018, 10:27:45 pm »
Oh ok, sorry if I've been bringing up old topics. I drive trucks cross country, so I've been listening to the audiobooks lately. It's tough to analyze when your driving a big rig lol

There's still much to discuss on this particular topic, though, so by all means carry on. ;) I wasn't around when most of the Serwë discussion took place either, so I think there's always a chance one or more of us can come up with something new here.


This is a pretty big exception, though. And there are just so many ways to weave the Gods into the narrative that I have serious doubts they won't play a notable role.

Alright, I admit that it is (Ajokli is always a notable exception when compared to the other Gods, anyway). That was mostly my opinion on the Gods' roles in TNG, I might end up being completely mistaken on that. :)
I feel confident that Yatwer is probably not going to get heavily involved, though. She had her role to play in TAE, and as the Mother of Birth, her influence likely won't be felt for quite a while in-universe (again, just my opinion).

42
General Earwa / Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
« on: June 04, 2018, 10:14:20 pm »
I believe there is a Bakker quote somewhere that says something along the lines of "Serwe is a cipher for the morality of the series." At the time, I took it to mean that Serwe was right about Kellhus being a prophet, but in light of recent revelations, it would make more sense that he was referring to her innocence and ignorance. I wonder what mimara would see if she saw Serwe with TJE

At the risk of derailing the thread (though maybe not, as this is still about the JE), you have no idea how much I've wished Mimara (or someone else with the Eye) had been a POV during PON ever since we started the forum reread. Even considering Mimara can only look at so many people with the JE, I'd still be very, very curious to see how she would have seen characters such as Serwë or Conphas, or even characters she actually saw during TAE (Cnaiür, Esmenet...) to see if a particular person is always seen the same way through the JE. I actually brought up this last particular point in the Quorum the other day. I think it could ultimately work one of two ways: a) as the God is outside of time, any particular person would always look the same when seen by the JE at any point in their life (as their life "would have already been lived" in the eyes of the God); b) the God is outside of time, but the person with the JE is human, and so that "warps" what they see, which can change with time. There are just so many possibilities...


Yep, we went over that quite thoroughly in our last reread.

Probably something that merits further discussion when it comes up in this new reread...


I'm inclined to believe she would see what Kellhus told Proyas. Damnation.

Think so?

We can point to many cases where Kellhus is wrong...all throughout the series. Hell, @Locke has a great thread around here pointing out all such instances. I tend to believe that the "common" people got it right and revere her as a holy figure...

I'm not so sure she would be damned either. I mean, she could be (I could see reasoning for both damnation and salvation), but I agree with MSJ in that we should take Kellhus' opinions with a grain of salt (heh).


Ah yes, I forgot about that. Although it is possible that Kellhus only said that to condition Proyas. He needed to turn Proyas into an unbeliever, and telling him Serwe is damned would be a good way to cement Proyas' disbelief

This is a very plausible possibility.


I would like to know why many people think that the Gods are out of the picture while the No-God is active. They are not at all out of anything, they just can't act against the No-God effectively (they can still wreak havoc for other reasons, for example). The faculties of the Gods are impaired by the System, but they are not completely nullified until the world is successfully shut.

They aren't completely nullified, sure, but their role in the story becomes much more limited after the rise of the No-God. I would be surprised if they happened to have as much of an influence in the story in TNG as they did in TAE (with the exception of Ajokli, perhaps).

43
The No-God / Re: The Heart
« on: June 04, 2018, 09:50:04 pm »
I bet someone has brought this up before, but I'm wondering if the heart used in The Grasping is actually Nau-Cayuti's.  It's always been a bit weird to think about Seswatha performing this ritual--doing complicated magic while passing out from blood loss and making a heart like that might have been beyond the power of any remaining sorcerers.

An intriguing theory, MG.
I always assumed that Seswatha died after a long illness or something (as in, did not die suddenly and unexpectedly and had time to prepare), and the sorcerous ritual was performed by him (and probably some of his fellow Mandati) right before he died. As soon as he was dead, his heart would be turned into the artifact we know (thus no actual removal of the heart while he was still alive needed).


Here's how it would work: Seswatha is there when Mog is struck down.  He scoops up the heart in the aftermath wreckage, both out of love for NC (and maybe Ses didn't find out that Mog was NC until just then--for all we know NC is not dead but dying and passes on some last words to Ses which would make for a tragic repitition of his father's battlefield death) and to prevent the Consult from remaking Mog (if he assumes they need this bit).  Then Ses could ctrl+c, ctrl+v his soul into NC's heart later on.

I've speculated about Seswatha possibly knowing Nau-Cayûti had been used to activate the No-God before. Even if it went down like you said - he found out after the No-God was defeated - it would still be a very tragic moment.
I'm inclined to believe the theory (that I've seen discussed before) that the Heron Spear worked by killing the Insertant (Nau-Cayûti in this case) - or what was left of him in any case - and deactivating the No-God entirely (and not due to any special property it happened to have itself). But who knows? We have never seen the aftermath of the destruction of the No-God via a Dream, it could be he was still (barely) alive. And sure, a sorcerous rite to place a soul in a human heart would presumably be easier if the heart belonged to someone other than the person performing the rite.


This would explain why Akka is getting memories from both dudes and may offer a glimmer of hope for humanity.  Akka or some other Mandati like Serwa might be able to glean some secret about the inner workings of the Carapace and use this in battle.  The Mutilated are as vulnerable to ignorance as anyone else, if there is any hope against them it will come out of the darkness that surrounds those four.  There's no reason to think that they would anticipate this development and a constant theme in Bakker is pervasive finitude--no one ever premeditates everything.  It's just not possible.

P.S. On the possibility that NC has a death scene like his dad's -- right after the carapace is broken, the gods are back in Earwa and that would be the perfect moment for someone (like NC) to have a vision witnessing their return.

A good theory on Akka's Dreams from Nau-Cayûti's POV. I think that, as of now, the leading theory is that the POV shift was probably due to Nau-Cayûti indeed being Seswatha's biological son. With your theory, the Celmomas POV in Akka's Dreams could be explained by him being the father of the person whose heart the Dreams originated from. The theory I mentioned previously doesn't really explain that particular POV...
I'm looking forward to seeing Dreams from Akka or Serwa's POVs (and ideally even from the POVs of other Mandati or Swayali who happened to survive the "salt and butchery") in TNG. No doubt that there would be significant changes at this moment, when they'd be more necessary than ever before (even if I also like stuslayer's "Kellhus Dreams" theory...shame that they seem to be mutually exclusive).
Very true, the Mutilated (and Dûnyain as a whole) are not infallible in any way. We saw this "Dûnyain infallibility fallacy" play out with Moënghus in PON and later with Kellhus in TAE. Dûnyain are extremely competent at predicting possibilities and manipulating people and events to their liking, but there are still factors they can not account for.

44
General Earwa / Re: [TUC Spoiler] Esmenet and the JE
« on: June 04, 2018, 06:48:31 pm »
I need to give this more though and to look more into in along the reread, but the Cubit really does care about ignorance as a key tenant.  I believe, if I remember correctly, that Kellhus purposely keeps Esmenet ignorant of a number of things to protect her.  And he was right to do so.

Also, I'm not sure that Yatwer's favor, or disfavor, can transgress The Cubit.

I remember that, I just didn't go into more detail because a) it hasn't been fully confirmed (not that many things get a clear-cut explanation in this series, but you get what I mean) and b) I also want to "save" it for a more detailed discussion/analysis later on (it will be a while before the current forum reread reaches TGO, though).

Agree with you on Yatwer, though I wouldn't completely exclude a connection between her and the Judging Eye, because of its link to pregnant women and stillbirths. We have no evidence of this (and I don't think we will, with Yatwer effectively out of the picture during the Second Apocalypse), but it's not that implausible to me.


Oh I see what your saying. It's very difficult to tell what's going on in Issiral's head. And I suppose Yatwer might not have anything to do with TJE in the first place

Issiral's POV can be quite confusing. I had to reread specific passages to get a better picture of what happened at the end of TGO, and I'm still missing some details there.

Like I said in my reply to H above, while we have no reason to think Yatwer has a connection to the Judging Eye, it doesn't mean that there isn't one. Yatwer just has no impact on whether Mimara would see Esmenet (or anyone else) as saved.


To the bold, you're correct. We see throughout the series several times that ignorance is holy. But, the real proof lie in what Koringhus tells us right before his leap.

Yeah, Koringhus tells us a lot of important information about the Cubit, but it's hard to make out some of it, because he is literally insane at that point.

A detailed reread of the chapters Koringhus appears in is needed, at least in my case. Not sure if I'm going to wait for the forum reread to get there (the TGO reread will take place approximately between January and May 2020 by my calculations)...but then again, it's likely that we won't yet have a new book to discuss by the time it ends, so why not?

45
The No-God / Re: Will Akka and co even make it back to the TS?
« on: June 04, 2018, 06:37:24 pm »
A further point on Zeum.  Memgowa, the originator of the 'blind beggar brain' , which as far as I know, is the in world equivalent of Bakker's 'blind brain theory' was Zeumi.  On the assumption that he has left an intellectual legacy in Zeum, there may be people there that have a better chance of understanding what the No-God is there, than there are elsewhere
Excellent observation!  I don’t think we ever got a sense of how the Zeumi even think about the Apocalypse.  The idea of ending the cycle of birth seems like it would throw a big wrench in the whole idea of ancestor worship.


I second what profgrape said, yet another great catch there, TheCulminatingApe.

Memgowa does seem to have left a lasting intellectual legacy in his home country. I remember Malowebi referring to his old mentor as a "true disciple of Memgowa" or something similar. Hopefully some of the greatest minds in modern-day Zeüm will become allies to Akka and co. in the future. He certainly needs some good ones...

Also a good point, profgrape. It makes me wonder if after the First Apocalypse, the people of Zeüm became even more zealous in their ancestor worship, having lost that connection once before. (I don't think it only became part of their culture then, it seems to be older than that.) They will certainly know what the Boding means, that's one of the (many) reasons why I feel it would be important to have a Zeümi POV (probably someone from Nganka'kull's court) early on, before our protagonists get there (if they ever do).

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