[TUC Spoilers] Ajokli and the metaphysical whodunit

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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #195 on: November 04, 2017, 05:22:52 am »
I'm not sure Kellhus tried to, per se, "save" humanity as opposed to getting rid of competition and then using humanity in some nefarious way himself in accordance with his modus operandi of mastering the circumstances.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #196 on: November 04, 2017, 12:24:48 pm »
I'm not sure Kellhus tried to, per se, "save" humanity as opposed to getting rid of competition and then using humanity in some nefarious way himself in accordance with his modus operandi of mastering the circumstances.

All true, but I agree with MSJ, he was trying to "save" humanity - now from what exactly, still not clear ( save from TNG, save from the gods ... maybe both or something else ). It's muddied due to the Ajokli possession, hope to find out more in the next books.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #197 on: November 04, 2017, 01:07:58 pm »
hope to find out more in the next books.
As do I!

MSJ

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« Reply #198 on: November 04, 2017, 02:39:58 pm »
Quote from:  TaoHorror
All true, but I agree with MSJ, he was trying to "save" humanity - now from what exactly, still not clear ( save from TNG, save from the gods ... maybe both or something else ). It's muddied due to the Ajokli possession, hope to find out more in the next books.

We do know why or what he was trying to save humanity from, from the Thousandfold Thought. He was trying to destroy the Consult and prevent the rise of the NG. That is what tthe thought was. Dis he have plans to use the Diamos and also alter Heaven/He'll or destroy the Gods also? I don't know. But, we do know what the TT was about.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Madness

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« Reply #199 on: November 04, 2017, 07:08:41 pm »
Just a couple of general notes here and i am curious as to whether anyone else has run across this. I have a couple of friends that i introduced to RSB years ago and they just finished TUC - and its fair to say that they are deeply confused. Deeply. They are more casual readers. They have never been on this board, or Westeros, or any reddit AMA for this, etc.

I think the majority of your speculation is warranted from certain perspectives but I too have a number of these casual friends - who long preceded any foruming about Bakker - who found reading the end as expected (twists aside). One even was about fifty pages from the end two weeks ago and he basically plotted the whole novel from about halfway through given that TAE is one story in four parts.

...

The other problem is that his draft readers (and especially us fan-draft readers) "got it" for the most part, especially given the time we've interacted with the series... that becomes truly problematic alongside the lack of an editor.

That group will include me, I'm sure. I'll be sure to send you photos of me feeding my copies of TSA into the bonfire.

Fuck, I'll come with just for the lols, BFK. Have a beer, buy a couple copies of Bakker, and toss them in the fire. I'll make sure to have all the media on hand.

I'm convinced nothing sells books like book burnings on the news. Likewise, let's get Bakker into libraries and then call vehemently for their removal ;).

That's a blurb, MSJ! If RSB ever publishes his philosophical essays, that's the blurb I want to see on the dust jacket.

Through the Brain Darkly, whenever it sees its day.

I think a part of Bakker's unnecessary vagueness comes from needing a better editor.

+1

Agreed, from his Q&A, it appears he expected us to understand more than what we did.

+1

Ha, yeah, especially for TUC in my opinion. The editing was damn near an atrocity tale in its own right.

I can say with certainty that the editing for TGO was worse - much worse. TUC benefited only from being an already finished first draft when Bakker submitted TGO in '14 and so he himself spent more time with it and fixed more of the mundane errors (let alone plotting errors) that a simple copy-edit should have caught on Overlook's part.

Literary modernism entails, among other things, radical narrative experimentation (multiple POVs, ambiguous resolutions, discontinuous narrative structure, etc.). By now, they're familiar literary devices. Their use in genre fiction is relatively recent, to be sure. And Bakker absolutely raises the stakes by positing an absolutely "unhappy ending" to his saga.

You know, Bakker claims an outright distaste for Gene Wolfe-style "modernism." I've always wondered how his authorial expression will differ.

So, for me, the Forum is a forward observation post of sorts. I can observe the development of ideas that concern me.

Plus, good people are involved. It's a good place.

Lol - happily welcome the apparent enemy to camp ;).

Really curious how I help to develop disconcerting Bakker philosophies - especially seeing as I'm a dedicated Normie and think Bakker is largely an optimist.

Tao and Wilshire, you guys made my day! As is evident, my absence was temporary and entirely due to my disinclination to discuss TSA matters in the immediate aftermath of reading TUC. Heap big medicine in that tome, to be sure.

Hopefully we're a half decent panacea ;).

I'm so happy to know I wasn't the reason you left - I was hard on you many times, but purely as a joke/entertainment. My "gang" here at home, we super-saturate ourselves with insult humor - the harsher the insult, the greater the love ... so it "seeps" out of me in mixed company from time to time. I won best come back ever with my peeps 20 years ago and still hold the award! I'm so proud!

That's exactly how I am with the group I grew up with, Tao, but have to remember that here is another unique meld, obviously ;).

All true, but I agree with MSJ, he was trying to "save" humanity - now from what exactly, still not clear ( save from TNG, save from the gods ... maybe both or something else ). It's muddied due to the Ajokli possession, hope to find out more in the next books.

That's an interesting thought. While the No-God/Consult are certainly the obvious existential threat to Kellhus, it seems there must have been literature about Ajokli's constant will to power in Earwa against the Gods.

We do know why or what he was trying to save humanity from, from the Thousandfold Thought. He was trying to destroy the Consult and prevent the rise of the NG. That is what tthe thought was. Dis he have plans to use the Diamos and also alter Heaven/He'll or destroy the Gods also? I don't know. But, we do know what the TT was about.

I'm fairly sure Kellhus is simply supposed to be read as earnest. The time and place in which he descended among the worldborn dictated his mission. I mean, he is basically a twisted Zarathustra insert ;).
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 07:21:35 pm by Madness »
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MSJ

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« Reply #200 on: November 04, 2017, 08:40:15 pm »
Quote from:  Madness
Really curious how I help to develop disconcerting Bakker philosophies - especially seeing as I'm a dedicated Normie and think Bakker is largely an optimist.

See, and I mentioned somewhere that I thought the NG would be the redemption of man, not needing a super-human being, only men banding together to stop TNG. Because, of that review you linked. The guy said that Bakker is optimistic about mankind. And when I mentioned that, I got a reaction that that's not the story you get through his philosophy. I'm confused. Is the man optimistic about mankind or not?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Dora Vee

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« Reply #201 on: November 04, 2017, 10:27:04 pm »
Honestly, I think it's a bit of both. That yes, humanity probably could survive without a Kellhus, but you will still have assholes who might end up ruining everything for whatever reason.
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
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« Reply #202 on: November 05, 2017, 03:22:07 am »
Is the man optimistic about mankind or not?

I used to think that he thought it was possible for humanity to pump the brakes. But now I think he's moved firmly - and confusedly - into 'crash space' commentary.
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #203 on: November 05, 2017, 11:09:20 am »
Honestly, I think it's a bit of both. That yes, humanity probably could survive without a Kellhus, but you will still have assholes who might end up ruining everything for whatever reason.

+1
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Wilshire

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« Reply #204 on: November 06, 2017, 04:15:38 pm »
Is the man optimistic about mankind or not?

I used to think that he thought it was possible for humanity to pump the brakes. But now I think he's moved firmly - and confusedly - into 'crash space' commentary.

I've never read a sentence of hope in anything he's written, fiction or non-fiction. Granted, TPB is decidedly indecipherable, but what I do read (or the interviews he does), always seems firmly pessimistic regarding the future of humanity.

The Semantic Apocalypse and Crash Space are really "guys, we're all fucked" theories, but he never follows up with anything like "but gee golly if we just stand together, we'll pull through!" Its always something closer to 'our biology predisposes us to abject failure and we're a dozen centuries too stupid to do anything about it'.

But if there's optimism in there somewhere, do point it out :) .
BTW, if TSA is a story about the redemption of mankind, I'll be holding the book burning at my house.

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MSJ

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« Reply #205 on: November 06, 2017, 04:35:50 pm »
Wilshire, what do you want 3 books about then? Atrocities committed by the weapons races?  I don't know how much more can be said, if the world is indeed destroyed.

Which got me thinking... Kellhus took care of Aurang in a sec and tossed him to the Sranc. So we have the Dunsult(I believe just Shae's new form), Mek's dead and Auruax is just a feeble lol creature. So, all this for a handful of people or aliens? Shut the world to the Outside by bringing the population under 144,000 or straight up wiping the plate clean. Who is Earwa left to then? Creatures without souls to begin with? What happens to the No-God when the number is reached? Then humans start having babies again? Does the Outside reconnect? What interests you about TSA if not a chance at humankind pulling through? And what would make e books even close to great about that?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #206 on: November 06, 2017, 05:05:41 pm »

I've never read a sentence of hope in anything he's written, fiction or non-fiction.

Another great blurb!


BTW, if TSA is a story about the redemption of mankind, I'll be holding the book burning at my house.

Lmao, Wilshire!
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BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #207 on: November 06, 2017, 05:28:34 pm »
Wilshire, what do you want 3 books about then? Atrocities committed by the weapons races?  I don't know how much more can be said, if the world is indeed destroyed.

Well, MSJ, I guess they call it "grimdark" for a reason.

What interests you about TSA if not a chance at humankind pulling through?

That, sir, is a question worthy of its own thread.
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

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Wilshire

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« Reply #208 on: November 06, 2017, 05:35:11 pm »
Good questions MSJ! Had to do some thinking / reflecting. Longish post incoming :) .

Regarding what's contained within TNG, I'm guessing there will be nothing in terms of conclusions. Most like a series of interconnected short stories - largely a world building exercise.

If its 300 pages on atrocities, I doubt I'll finish it. But, just as TUC had just a few instances of that, I'm sure this one will too.

If its 'more of the same', ie if the story continues along the logical path that's been laid out from the start, I'll be satisfied. I don't know what that'll be, and I don't really hope it'll be anything in particular, but that its consistent. I'll be upset if it does a 180 turn and all of a sudden its rainbows and butterflies.

Regarding "how much more can be said": Earwa is a massive universe. I'm sure Bakker could write stories within this world he intricately crafted for all the days of his life, and there would still be stories left untold. After all, its taken him nearly 30 years to tell just one story - the story of The No God. So what's left to be said? We've only just finished the prologue.

(To me, given the IRL time scale, its like asking "what's left" after reading Crippled God, or better yet since Erikson wrote the whole thing in about a dozen years, think of it as Bakker just got finished with House of Chains and it'll take him another 60 years to finish writing what's left of Earwa. Obviously TSA has been far more linear than MBOTF and the analogy is kind of weak and breaks down under scrutiny, but maybe that helps illustrate what I'm thiking?)

What interests you about TSA if not a chance at humankind pulling through?

There's little that's as subjective as what an individual likes, and I've got two answers for this specifically.
One, I enjoy the story, the universe, and the story telling. Something about it just gets me every time. I'm not sure I can precisely identify why, really. What makes TSA interesting is the world itself. All the ways everything is so intricately entangled. All the mysteries. The very human struggle to do, and to strive. To believe, and to live - the story really comes alive in parts for me, and I love it. So whatever stories Bakker writes about Earwa and beyond, I'll most likely read. For anyone new here - yes, I'm a fanboy lol.

But, two, what makes TSA interesting to me is that its not about humanity pulling through.
All the failures. The islands of success amidst the endless sea of failure. Glimmers of hope, despite all the hardship. To me, think of it like the how Yatwer priestesses regard donations - it doesn't count if you do it to buy favor into heaven. The story itself loses its meaning if everything works out in the end. Its not courage if know you'll succeed. To that end, the story has accomplished that in many small ways. Whether the plot of TNG resolves and humanity wins out, I'll probably not be (too) upset, because of how hard fought that will have been. Despite whatever larger resolution, there was still Proyas and Saubon, Akka and Esmenet, all those that were lost and broken along the way. I don't want, or need, a greater resolution to make TSA a better story. It might cheapen everything for me a bit though. Re-reading it, knowing that Proyas is betrayed makes his journey that much more heartbreaking. In the same way, if it does so happen that Bad happens (evil prevails, humanity dies, world is shut, etc. etc.), the story is more emotional for it. I get other's feel the opposite, and that's cool too :), but you had asked for my opinion, so there you have it.




TL;DR I'm a sucker and just like Bakker's writing. Earwa is cool too - I want more stories. :)
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Wilshire

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« Reply #209 on: November 06, 2017, 05:38:18 pm »

I've never read a sentence of hope in anything he's written, fiction or non-fiction.

Another great blurb!


BTW, if TSA is a story about the redemption of mankind, I'll be holding the book burning at my house.

Lmao, Wilshire!

Lol, glad to be of service, as always.

Wilshire, what do you want 3 books about then? Atrocities committed by the weapons races?  I don't know how much more can be said, if the world is indeed destroyed.

Well, MSJ, I guess they call it "grimdark" for a reason.

What interests you about TSA if not a chance at humankind pulling through?

That, sir, is a question worthy of its own thread.
Yeah, my response ended up being a bit lengthy. But what a question is worthy of, and what it gets, are unfortunately rarely the same. Easily rectified though - anyone can make a new thread, and I think it might be enlightening.
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