The Second Apocalypse

Miscellaneous Chatter => General Misc. => Topic started by: Madness on September 27, 2017, 12:50:09 am

Title: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Madness on September 27, 2017, 12:50:09 am
So... I've started a Mark Lawrence fan forum (http://thebrokenempire.freeforums.net/) a la SA v1...

Mark Lawrence has already responded:

Quote from: Mark Lawrence (https://www.facebook.com/rita.sloan.14/posts/10154752411951951?comment_id=10154752419061951&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R1%22%7D)
I've never really felt that's a great thing. Probably better for an author if any discussions etc happen in more general spaces where they can catch the eye of new readers. So rather than a dedicated reddit subforum, use r/fantasy etc.

Ultimately, I'd like to find Mark Lawrence's Madshire/whoever to pass it off to. But for now I'm very interested in where this goes from here.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Redeagl on September 27, 2017, 01:43:18 am
Pretty douche-ey reply, imo.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Madness on September 27, 2017, 03:15:00 pm
I'll refrain from comment :).
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Redeagl on September 27, 2017, 04:27:02 pm
I'll refrain from comment :).
I meant Lawrence's reply, just in case anyone misunderstood ;)
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Madness on September 29, 2017, 12:23:30 pm
I knew what you meant ;).
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Sausuna on October 03, 2017, 01:19:01 pm
Pretty douche-ey reply, imo.
Why do you think that? Maybe I'm not getting it. I can't comment on the veracity of his logic, given I have no numbers to go off of (and it'd be a seemingly hard topic to delve into). But it seemed tame enough.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Redeagl on October 03, 2017, 01:27:48 pm
Pretty douche-ey reply, imo.
Why do you think that? Maybe I'm not getting it. I can't comment on the veracity of his logic, given I have no numbers to go off of (and it'd be a seemingly hard topic to delve into). But it seemed tame enough.
He basically said " If you want to talk about my books, do it in a way that makes me money or no fun for you!!!!". That's a douche
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Wilshire on October 03, 2017, 01:32:43 pm
Pretty douche-ey reply, imo.
Why do you think that? Maybe I'm not getting it. I can't comment on the veracity of his logic, given I have no numbers to go off of (and it'd be a seemingly hard topic to delve into). But it seemed tame enough.

There's some disillusionment going on. People want everyone to think their well-intentioned ideas will be positively received by all. This was clearly not the case.

Not that I don't get where he is coming from. If your main focus is book sales, I'm sure he's absolutely right. You aren't getting new sales by making a place for fans to hang out.

But on the flip side, its about community. Not everyone feels comfortable sharing their opinions in a bar filled with strangers. Some people want a comfortable place to hang out with their friends and talk about things they have in common.

To each, their own.

I suspect that Redeagl, and Madness, likely wanted authorial buy-in, given the propensity for Lawrence to be seemingly everywhere on the internet. It appears, though, from that singular comment, that the author's efforts are largely to drive book sales, rather than truly build a unique community of friends and compatriots.

Hopefully that clears some things up. Sometimes more words help clarify :) .
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Sausuna on October 03, 2017, 01:41:01 pm
Pretty douche-ey reply, imo.
Why do you think that? Maybe I'm not getting it. I can't comment on the veracity of his logic, given I have no numbers to go off of (and it'd be a seemingly hard topic to delve into). But it seemed tame enough.
He basically said " If you want to talk about my books, do it in a way that makes me money or no fun for you!!!!". That's a douche
I find that to be an unfairly malicious interpretation. Especially given the very liberal rephrasing. From the sounds of things in Quorum, there are probably insurmountable philosophical differences on the topic as well.

@Wilshire - Fair enough, that sounds like a much more understandable framing of the situation to me.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Wilshire on October 03, 2017, 03:41:16 pm
I do my best to not get overly excited ;) .

Minor differences, or small misunderstandings, can quickly lead to large divides. I'm sure Lawrence really just doesn't have the time or interest to understand fully what someone making a dedicated fan forum is attempting to do.

From his POV, given a more generous reading, he is framing the effort from his experience. Taking the suggestion for making a fanforum as "hey, I think this will help sales!", to which he responded "probably not".
For what its worth, I agree.

No one's got the time or energy to explain that the point really isn't directly sales. In fact, no consideration to sales is really being made - its entirely besides the point. The idea is to connect people that, despite there being dozens of other places to do so, have not or will not ever connect. Through those unique connection, who knows what interesting things might arise. For, say Madness or Redeagle, the conversation looked more like "hey I want to make this neat thing for you", to which the response was "don't bother, that's a waste of time".
For what its worth, I get why that's frustrating too.

Of course, neither faux conversation took place. Just two people talking past each other. I don't thing any harm was intended.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Madness on October 03, 2017, 05:41:02 pm
For documentation purposes, this is the comment I just wrote on Lawrence's recent blog (http://mark---lawrence.blogspot.ca/2017/10/why-i-dont-have-or-want-forum.html), as there is a very good chance he won't approve my response, especially given that I included a link to the forum in my name (as I wrote in my response, I thought it suddenly seemed rude if I were to link it in my reply). Excited to see whether or not I'll be censored from his blog - life, so quirky sometimes ;).

Quote from: Madness
Two unexpected responses so far. It would almost seem that I should apologize...

For anyone interested, with respect to the author, I've created a fan forum for Mark Lawrence. I won't link it in my reply, at this point it seems rude of me, but you can navigate there by clicking my name.

To your facebook response and this post, Mr. Lawrence, given the respect I have for your online presence and your love of data, I thought you'd be more interested in seeing the data this social experiment generated or, as per your dismissal, otherwise have data to cite in refutation.

To quote again my reply to your facebook comment, "I'd love to source the data but at the very least it might be a space to consolidate the disparate links regarding your fandom as well as allow for a discussion of ambiguity in your texts - since most general online mediums frown on parsing specifics from individual texts.

But as I said in thread on the forum for me it's a social experiment and one I hope might facilitate you and your writing somehow."

To this post, some thoughts:

- A portion of members registered to any given online social media platform are lurkers only and not content generating members.
- Those who participate on any given online social medium generally only do so on one or few but very rarely many or all.
- When adding a new social media platform to a preexisting habitual repertoire of social media behaviors, participating members rarely give up the previous platforms of previous use (unless the new medium replaces all the same uses as the older platforms – this is why people participate on more than one online social medium at all because they allow for different functionality).
- It is a very small subset of your overall readership who might even choose to discuss your books in greater detail online or work to consolidate links regarding your already prolific personal outreach and facilitation in and of the greater Fantasy reading community on a dedicated fan forum site. These are the fans who already do prosthelytize your works on any other appropriate online social media platform and in real life - it would seem unlikely, to me, that they would cease doing so just because you now have a dedicated fan forum (assuming, of course, that your existing readers who talk about your work on reddit/facebook/GDFRW/etc aren’t just there to talk about your works only).
- Your extensive online outreach is not negated by the existence of a novel community and network of your fans.

I am a big fan of what you’ve accomplished with your outreach and your personality as expressed online. I've always liked that you (usually) try and bring data into any given conversation, especially those pertaining to writing and authorship in today's publishing contexts. I've also had a great interest in learning how humans organize, how information travels through human networks, and how individuals exercise agency in large-scale, complicated, and diverse kinds human social organizations. For me this is an experiment, if nothing else - though, the impetus to take fifteen minutes, create a fan forum, link it on r/fantasy, GDFRW, Fantasy-Faction, and Malazan Empire arose from discussing with one of your prospective future readers how big your fandom is and how much you are personally respected online, which reminded me of when the Malazan Empire fans were going to create a dedicated subforum for you there.

TL;DR, I'm interested in where the forum experiment goes from here, given that it might have well failed on its own before your comments, which are no doubt the nail in its coffin. I respect that you perceive dedicated fan forums to have a detrimental impact on sales. As the forum currently has five members, I'm going to let it live for the moment, despite your rejection.

If at some point in all your data you find a dip in your sales that can be even remotely related to my starting your fan forum, let me know and I'll shut it down promptly.

Thanks...
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Madness on October 03, 2017, 05:55:26 pm
Otherwise, so far:

- I created a Mark Lawrence fan forum after Knee That Bends and I discussed him starting Prince of Thorns in Quorum.
- I linked on Grimdark Fiction Readers & Writers facebook group, as well as, r/fantasy, Fantasy-Faction, and Malazan Empire (who years ago were going to created a dedicated subforum for Lawrence there).
        - On linking the forum around, I took no lessons from MG and impulse posted. I probably would have gotten a greater initial response had I waited til the next afternoon and posted shortly after 12pm, rather than in the evening when I created the forum.
- The Grim Tidings Podcast hosted, in half, by the Admin of GDFRW linked the fan forum - but Grimdark Magazine did not.
- A member of the GDFRW shared it to her personal wall with Lawrence tagged, to which he responded with the quote from my opening post in this thread.
- Mark Lawrence made a post on his blog, elaborating on his not having (or wanting) a fan forum.
- I responded, as seen above this post.

Moving forward, if Mark Lawrence approves my response to his blog the link in my name will get occupy one of the most prominent possible positions relative to Mark Lawrence's established online fan network (since - and I have to assume - the greatest concentrate of Mark Lawrence fans most frequent his blog for information about Mark Lawrence and his work).

Criticism of my actions and/or words are invited and welcome :).
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Redeagl on October 03, 2017, 06:24:38 pm
A few points from me. Opinions are mine, not Madness's. He can't come up with opinions as thoughtful as mine unless he becomes truly faithful in his worship of Akka.:
- Lawrence did not reply to our replies to his original comment ( We disagreed with him. ). Then completely ignored Madness's request to share the forum's link.
- Lawrence did not comment at all in the multiple public posts about the forum, like Madness's original post in GDFRW, and The Grim Tidings Podcast, but chose to comment in the personal wall of a GDFRW member.
- Lawrence decides to post a ( Rather stupid IMO.)  blog post as the reply.
Redeagl's conclusion: That's douche-ey.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Sausuna on October 03, 2017, 08:07:42 pm
Madness, seems like a very well thought and written post. Well done, I say. And about as respectable a disagreement as one can have.

Redeagl, it isn't his responsibility to comment on the matter (assuming he saw it previously) or even give researched debate on it. And I'm not sure why you feel as though you are entitled to such. So strongly that you feel it appropriate to both call him names and tell people not to buy his books.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Redeagl on October 03, 2017, 08:38:49 pm
Madness, seems like a very well thought and written post. Well done, I say. And about as respectable a disagreement as one can have.

Redeagl, it isn't his responsibility to comment on the matter (assuming he saw it previously) or even give researched debate on it. And I'm not sure why you feel as though you are entitled to such. So strongly that you feel it appropriate to both call him names and tell people not to buy his books.
Ignoring passionate fan projects completely kills it and most importantly, is certainly " not a good adequate". ( :P  ) .And yes, he certainly did see it previously, he sees every single post made about him in FB groups he is active in. As for my strong feelings, discovering that an author whose books I greatly enjoy, is not " a  very good guy" in first person does that. Like I said, I really liked his books ( Except Red Sister. That was shit. ), but I also recommend against them. Is that bad?  It's just my opinion, that Lawrence doesn't deserve your money.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Sausuna on October 03, 2017, 09:38:26 pm
Madness, seems like a very well thought and written post. Well done, I say. And about as respectable a disagreement as one can have.

Redeagl, it isn't his responsibility to comment on the matter (assuming he saw it previously) or even give researched debate on it. And I'm not sure why you feel as though you are entitled to such. So strongly that you feel it appropriate to both call him names and tell people not to buy his books.
Ignoring passionate fan projects completely kills it and most importantly, is certainly " not a good adequate". ( :P  ) .And yes, he certainly did see it previously, he sees every single post made about him in FB groups he is active in. As for my strong feelings, discovering that an author whose books I greatly enjoy, is not " a  very good guy" in first person does that. Like I said, I really liked his books ( Except Red Sister. That was shit. ), but I also recommend against them. Is that bad?  It's just my opinion, that Lawrence doesn't deserve your money.
Does he read all manner of Facebook post about him in detail or does it he skim? Does he typically consider them all very much? Hell if I know. I barely glance over stuff I see at me. Either way, whether he saw it or not is not quite as important, we can proceed assuming he did, if you'd prefer.

I don't have issue with recommending against his books specifically. But I think you insulting his character and claiming he's 'not a very good guy' isn't well justified. And the idea that that is also the justification for telling people not to buy them. It isn't his responsibility to read and/or respond to all discussion about him, especially not in debate of an issue. And it doesn't make him a bad person to want to earn more money. Especially when his response seemed rather political, whether or not his claim is necessarily correct. I understand entirely not agreeing with what he said and, to an extent, not liking it either. But it just seems like insults are a step too far. That's what bothers me on the matter.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: MSJ on October 03, 2017, 10:55:57 pm
Hey, when I first started reading TSA an encountered Baller online persona, well to say the least, I was very put off. I thought him condescending to those not as knowledgeable and not willing to give into the fact that he is in any, way, shape or form.....wrong. That being said, those were the old ROH arguments and such and a time when he was battling to get people to understand him and defending himself from all angles.

I've since learned to enjoy his online persona. His a veritable Ajokli, and I reckon not much different from Lawrence. If Bakker had the choice between SA and all his fans promoting his work so he would get better sales, it would be the latter, no doubt about it.

But, here's the thing. Its not the fans responsibility to sell any authors books. That's his responsibility (Bakker) by engaging fans, social media and attending Cons and such. He just don't want to do it. And, well, his sales reflect that. Lawrence does all those things and could care less for a fan forum. Not saying it's wrong to have one, for many reasons listed abo've.

I'm sorry, but if TNG fails to be picked up by Overlook or not published for some reason it is only man's fault, and that's Bakkker. He just doesn't want to do anything extra to get his stuff out there. And, unfortunately when he does chose to engage, he usually ends up in a fight with a fan.

Lawrence doesn't do this. He is very, very involved in advertising and interacting with fans. Just doesn't think a forum will help sales. But, let's all agree, that Lawrence's game plan for better sales well outpaced Bakker's.

But, I could give shot less. Banker is my favorite author. I've come to appreciate his view and how he sticks to his guns. I have faith he'll make it happen. He just might be dead. I think with the way society is heading, violence in TV more ready accepted, Banker will get his due.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Redeagl on October 03, 2017, 11:14:22 pm
Madness, seems like a very well thought and written post. Well done, I say. And about as respectable a disagreement as one can have.

Redeagl, it isn't his responsibility to comment on the matter (assuming he saw it previously) or even give researched debate on it. And I'm not sure why you feel as though you are entitled to such. So strongly that you feel it appropriate to both call him names and tell people not to buy his books.
Ignoring passionate fan projects completely kills it and most importantly, is certainly " not a good adequate". ( :P  ) .And yes, he certainly did see it previously, he sees every single post made about him in FB groups he is active in. As for my strong feelings, discovering that an author whose books I greatly enjoy, is not " a  very good guy" in first person does that. Like I said, I really liked his books ( Except Red Sister. That was shit. ), but I also recommend against them. Is that bad?  It's just my opinion, that Lawrence doesn't deserve your money.
Does he read all manner of Facebook post about him in detail or does it he skim? Does he typically consider them all very much? Hell if I know. I barely glance over stuff I see at me. Either way, whether he saw it or not is not quite as important, we can proceed assuming he did, if you'd prefer.

I don't have issue with recommending against his books specifically. But I think you insulting his character and claiming he's 'not a very good guy' isn't well justified. And the idea that that is also the justification for telling people not to buy them. It isn't his responsibility to read and/or respond to all discussion about him, especially not in debate of an issue. And it doesn't make him a bad person to want to earn more money. Especially when his response seemed rather political, whether or not his claim is necessarily correct. I understand entirely not agreeing with what he said and, to an extent, not liking it either. But it just seems like insults are a step too far. That's what bothers me on the matter.
Ah, it appears that there was a little misunderstanding there. So, a TL;DR of Lawrence: He is pretty damn social, unlike say, Bakker. He is active in Facebook fantasy groups, reddit, etc etc... You name it. He is also, more or less, a popular author. Of course he doesn't see every post or comment anybody makes on him at anytime everywhere. That said, like I said, he is social. I have him on my friend list on Facebook, he comments on all kinds of stuff so, his ignoring the public posts about the forum, then commenting in a private profile instead, is not a good move. So, he made his comment which is in the original post. I replied with " General places suck. " , Madness replied too and the person whose page we were talking in. We disagreed with his comments. He got notifications. He didn't reply. After a day, Madness replied with a request to Lawrence to post about the forum. Another ignore, but after like an hour, Lawrence posted about a Reddit/fantasy thread asking about his books, presumably to get his fans abroad.So no, of course he isn't entitled to respond to every discussion about him. But when he posts a "questionable" comment then ignore all different point of views, then make a blog post about it and not accepting any comments..............That's a slap to the face. And it's not the first time I see him being "not very pleasant" either.Everybody wants to earn more money. That's no secret. But would you say that say, thieves are not bad for just wanting some money?  If someone got me a gift that I didn't like at all, would I just tell him that I don't need it and ignore him for the rest of the day?  That someone only had good intentions by bringing me this gift. Why wouldn't I at least, thank him and treat him well despite my dislike of that gift ?  It's simple manners. Authors who treat their fans "unkindly" just for earning more money, does not deserve to earn that money.
Sorry for the long rant, it's 1AM and it have been a long day. I will probably make a more meaningful reply tomorrow.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Redeagl on October 03, 2017, 11:18:35 pm
Btw, a quick reply about my "strong language"since it seems to offend. English isn't my first language. I don't really swear much in my first language , but in English, I don't know. It just doesn't really feel like swearing. So words like " Douchebag" are not very offensive to me, you see. Just cultural differences :)  .
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Sausuna on October 04, 2017, 01:19:17 am
Madness, seems like a very well thought and written post. Well done, I say. And about as respectable a disagreement as one can have.

Redeagl, it isn't his responsibility to comment on the matter (assuming he saw it previously) or even give researched debate on it. And I'm not sure why you feel as though you are entitled to such. So strongly that you feel it appropriate to both call him names and tell people not to buy his books.
Ignoring passionate fan projects completely kills it and most importantly, is certainly " not a good adequate". ( :P  ) .And yes, he certainly did see it previously, he sees every single post made about him in FB groups he is active in. As for my strong feelings, discovering that an author whose books I greatly enjoy, is not " a  very good guy" in first person does that. Like I said, I really liked his books ( Except Red Sister. That was shit. ), but I also recommend against them. Is that bad?  It's just my opinion, that Lawrence doesn't deserve your money.
Does he read all manner of Facebook post about him in detail or does it he skim? Does he typically consider them all very much? Hell if I know. I barely glance over stuff I see at me. Either way, whether he saw it or not is not quite as important, we can proceed assuming he did, if you'd prefer.

I don't have issue with recommending against his books specifically. But I think you insulting his character and claiming he's 'not a very good guy' isn't well justified. And the idea that that is also the justification for telling people not to buy them. It isn't his responsibility to read and/or respond to all discussion about him, especially not in debate of an issue. And it doesn't make him a bad person to want to earn more money. Especially when his response seemed rather political, whether or not his claim is necessarily correct. I understand entirely not agreeing with what he said and, to an extent, not liking it either. But it just seems like insults are a step too far. That's what bothers me on the matter.
Ah, it appears that there was a little misunderstanding there. So, a TL;DR of Lawrence: He is pretty damn social, unlike say, Bakker. He is active in Facebook fantasy groups, reddit, etc etc... You name it. He is also, more or less, a popular author. Of course he doesn't see every post or comment anybody makes on him at anytime everywhere. That said, like I said, he is social. I have him on my friend list on Facebook, he comments on all kinds of stuff so, his ignoring the public posts about the forum, then commenting in a private profile instead, is not a good move. So, he made his comment which is in the original post. I replied with " General places suck. " , Madness replied too and the person whose page we were talking in. We disagreed with his comments. He got notifications. He didn't reply. After a day, Madness replied with a request to Lawrence to post about the forum. Another ignore, but after like an hour, Lawrence posted about a Reddit/fantasy thread asking about his books, presumably to get his fans abroad.So no, of course he isn't entitled to respond to every discussion about him. But when he posts a "questionable" comment then ignore all different point of views, then make a blog post about it and not accepting any comments..............That's a slap to the face. And it's not the first time I see him being "not very pleasant" either.Everybody wants to earn more money. That's no secret. But would you say that say, thieves are not bad for just wanting some money?  If someone got me a gift that I didn't like at all, would I just tell him that I don't need it and ignore him for the rest of the day?  That someone only had good intentions by bringing me this gift. Why wouldn't I at least, thank him and treat him well despite my dislike of that gift ?  It's simple manners. Authors who treat their fans "unkindly" just for earning more money, does not deserve to earn that money.
Sorry for the long rant, it's 1AM and it have been a long day. I will probably make a more meaningful reply tomorrow.
I appreciate the elaboration. I want to make a specific note on the thieves analogy in that theft is a crime, it unlawfully deprives other people of their goods. And seems quite inappropriate comparison for that reason, what he has done is neither illegal nor really depriving people of goods. If we're talking about a gift, typically such a thing is a personal exchange.

This entire thing just reinforces my thought that you feel entitled to something, a detailed discussion in this, because what, they are in part a public figure? It is the same rationale one would make to interrupt an actor at dinner to get an autograph because they signed one before. Qualifying it as a 'slap in the face' seems an exaggeration to me based on strong feelings on the matter, no offense intended. I'm not even quite sure I'd consider the situation very 'unkindly', it seems quite tame. Especially if he thinks it hurts his livelihood.

But, as you say, perhaps I'm reading too much into the language. As I somewhat noted, I understand disagreeing with what he said or even being annoyed. I'm, perhaps, more sparing with such words with people I'm unfamiliar with. And, clearly, I know less about the author's habits than you do. Perhaps it just comes down to semantics because I'm less involved.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Wilshire on October 04, 2017, 01:39:51 pm
Would just like to say, thanks for working through this civilly, folks. :)
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: H on October 04, 2017, 02:18:11 pm
Would just like to say, thanks for working through this civilly, folks. :)

I'd also like to say thanks, for whittling down the amount of prospective books I might read in the future.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Wilshire on October 04, 2017, 04:14:13 pm
Would just like to say, thanks for working through this civilly, folks. :)

I'd also like to say thanks, for whittling down the amount of prospective books I might read in the future.

Lol. I'm not letting abrasive author experience color my perspective of a book before I read it - only after ;) . Still on my list.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Madness on October 04, 2017, 04:32:36 pm
I don't know how quick the turnaround on Lawrence's blog for approving posts is but it would seem he will not be sharing my response.

Madness, seems like a very well thought and written post. Well done, I say. And about as respectable a disagreement as one can have.

Thanks. I do what I can.

...

Lmao, MSJ, your phone must have autocorrected to at least three different spellings or words resembling Bakker ;).

Would just like to say, thanks for working through this civilly, folks. :)

I'd also like to say thanks, for whittling down the amount of prospective books I might read in the future.

Lol. I'm not letting abrasive author experience color my perspective of a book before I read it - only after ;) . Still on my list.

Indeed, #2. I very much liked The Red Queen's War.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: MSJ on October 04, 2017, 04:38:35 pm
Quote from:  Madness
Lmao, MSJ, your phone must have autocorrected to at least three different spellings or words resembling Bakker ;).

Always does. Again, sometimes I can edit, sometimes I can't. I don't proofread...all the time. Bad choice on my part.

But, in context on what I wrote about Bakker. I just listened to him, and he sounds like a very humble, genuine and very smart dude. Doesn't seem like the guy I had in my head so many years ago.

I like that you have a Lawrence fan forum and he's posses about it, lol. I've read everything but Red Sister. I should start making an abundance of threads.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Madness on October 04, 2017, 05:46:59 pm
Quote from:  Madness
Lmao, MSJ, your phone must have autocorrected to at least three different spellings or words resembling Bakker ;).

Always does. Again, sometimes I can edit, sometimes I can't. I don't proofread...all the time. Bad choice on my part.

But, in context on what I wrote about Bakker. I just listened to him, and he sounds like a very humble, genuine and very smart dude. Doesn't seem like the guy I had in my head so many years ago.

I like that you have a Lawrence fan forum and he's posses about it, lol. I've read everything but Red Sister. I should start making an abundance of threads.

Yes, let me welcome you to The Broken Empire ;)!
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: H on October 05, 2017, 10:58:12 am
Lol. I'm not letting abrasive author experience color my perspective of a book before I read it - only after ;) . Still on my list.

I was sort of joking, but not really.  I mean, if I am going to read something, there needs to be a compelling reason to do so.  The default is to not waste my time, until proven I will not be wasting my time.  I am old and I don't have much time, so I only want the best of the best, really.

So, in the sense, this guy's demeanor has done nothing to suggest I should read any of his books.  And I haven't seen anything else to suggest I should either.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Sausuna on October 05, 2017, 01:58:19 pm
Lol. I'm not letting abrasive author experience color my perspective of a book before I read it - only after ;) . Still on my list.

I was sort of joking, but not really.  I mean, if I am going to read something, there needs to be a compelling reason to do so.  The default is to not waste my time, until proven I will not be wasting my time.  I am old and I don't have much time, so I only want the best of the best, really.

So, in the sense, this guy's demeanor has done nothing to suggest I should read any of his books.  And I haven't seen anything else to suggest I should either.
I would give his books a solid B. The setting, action, and characters are terribly enjoyable. That said, for some reason it always gave me a sort of 'young adult adventure' feel, not sure why. And the main character is kind of a Mary Sue (as much as I loath the term).
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: H on October 05, 2017, 02:06:17 pm
I would give his books a solid B. The setting, action, and characters are terribly enjoyable. That said, for some reason it always gave me a sort of 'young adult adventure' feel, not sure why. And the main character is kind of a Mary Sue (as much as I loath the term).

I think I have enough A material I'd like to get to before I really dive too deep into the B material.  Unless, like I said, there is some compelling extenuating reason to.  Good isn't really all that attractive when great is just as available.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Madness on October 06, 2017, 02:54:28 pm
So...

My curiosity is stoked regarding whether or not fan forums could possibly hurt an author's sales directly or the trajectory/growth of their sales indirectly - especially given Lawrence's deference to data in basically all other inquiry.

I don't know how to continue this conversation without visibility so I'm thinking of linking Lawrence's blog post, the forum, my censored response, and this thread to an r/fantasy thread...

I imagine that's not going to please Lawrence and I may come off as an asshole? (Which I apparently am.)

Anyone want to set me straight before I do something dumb ;)?
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: H on October 06, 2017, 04:01:53 pm
Anyone want to set me straight before I do something dumb ;)?

I just don't see why any of this is worth the effort, but maybe that's just me.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Sausuna on October 06, 2017, 04:25:04 pm
I would give his books a solid B. The setting, action, and characters are terribly enjoyable. That said, for some reason it always gave me a sort of 'young adult adventure' feel, not sure why. And the main character is kind of a Mary Sue (as much as I loath the term).

I think I have enough A material I'd like to get to before I really dive too deep into the B material.  Unless, like I said, there is some compelling extenuating reason to.  Good isn't really all that attractive when great is just as available.
Oh, sure. I just meant to give my opinion more-so than convince you to read it. Thoughts of the author aside.

@Madness - I'd suggest against it, but it would probably generate interesting discussion. Like I said before, though. I think the hypothesis has a lot of variables to account for.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: H on October 06, 2017, 04:32:42 pm
Oh, sure. I just meant to give my opinion more-so than convince you to read it. Thoughts of the author aside.

That was my impression too, so I'm thankful for your perspective.  I'm lucky if I can read a book a month, so I have to be selective now-a-days.

@Madness - I'd suggest against it, but it would probably generate interesting discussion. Like I said before, though. I think the hypothesis has a lot of variables to account for.

I'd even venture to postulate that the hypothesis is almost impossible to prove in either direction without some massive study that would cost more to preform than the sum total of our GDP and possibly not even be possible without compounding variables spoiling the whole thing.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: MSJ on October 06, 2017, 06:28:13 pm
Quote from:  H
I think I have enough A material I'd like to get to before I really dive too deep into the B material.  Unless, like I said, there is some compelling extenuating reason to.  Good isn't really all that attractive when great is just as available.

So where is all this GRRAT stuff you have to read? I'm speaking Fantasy/sci-fi, I find a lot of Good in the genre, not a whole lot of great. I've read 27 books this year and I'd say, excluding TSA re-read and TUC, Senlin Ascends & Arm of the Sphinx by Josiah Bancroft has been the best in the fantasy genre. But it's nowhere near TSA.

I've recently got into sci-fi, so The Morning Star series, The Expanse, Dune and now I'm in the Gap Cycle series has been a great change of pace.

But, where this great stuff, and I'm not being a smartass H. I just can't find nothing that strikes me like Bakker or GRRM up until the last two books.WHERE IS IT? I WANT IT? I CAN SMELL THE VIRGIN CUNNY OF ITS BINDER, BUT CANNOT LICATE THEM? (LOL, sorry MRA dragon joke, you know, because that's our type of thing and all).
Lead me, anyone, to the great books of my favorite genre.

I will give Blood Meridian a go, here soon. I mean I read plenty that I like and even think is good. He'll, I think when you have enough balls to put pen to paper and get published its at least somewhat entertaining. I've read a whole lot of Meh this year, but enjoyed certain aspects of each series and books. And I have time to read, so just show me where these great books are.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: TaoHorror on October 06, 2017, 06:57:06 pm
Guys/gals, you know, I love you all and with respect ... just don't know how to jump in without insulting you'all ... but no other way to put it, his books are mediocre and that's being kind. Someone gave it a B, young adult fiction feel, that's because it's not good. I genuinely think if I gave it all I got, I could cook up something about this level of quality ( and I consider myself to be a poor writer with no interest in getting better at this age ). It has no detail or dimension, it's not clever or surprising or suspenseful. Are you sure you're simply not accepting the reality that there ARE great writers and then there's everybody else? Given a world population of 7 billion, that leaves an impressive amount of great writing available to us. You want to read this guy, fine, you're an adult, don't need to explain yourself to me. But his response to you is a favor ... "beat it, you're giving me too much credit, my books suck". At least he has the wherewithal/introspection to not give his fans respect given he's unworthy of it himself ( at least toward the quality of his writing ). Prince of Thorns was toilet reading at best. You guys remind me of sports fans here in the US looking for the next Michael Jordan or next Tiger Woods - there ain't no other Bakker and that's that. There's other really good stuff out there, so I heed H's wise words ( paraphrasing ), given so much A quality out there, I don't waste my life on the crap. I was keeping out of this, since it's not my business what anyone likes, but it's gone on for 3 pages now, so I'm here to tell ya, it simply does not matter, is of no consequence whatsoever if this guy loves or hates or ignores you, Madness et al ... don’t mistake creative intensity with quality, it ain’t there with this; there’s a difference between crafting a story and making shit up. I can make up all kinds of murderous shit for ya and wont' charge you a penny for it. And yes, Madness, you can create a blog for my "work" along with all of the toilet analytics.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: MSJ on October 06, 2017, 09:57:18 pm
@Tao

Now thats just your opinion. He is a decent writer and has decent stories. Nothing groundbreaking, but not much out there is. I'd give him a B, on that scale. Red Queens War was definitely better then THe Broken Empire trilogy. I thought it best how they tied together and there was plenty enough to keep you interested. A decent read. He isn't horrible and his sales is a testament to that fact. If Banker sold like Lawrence we would be getting a TSA book, year in year out. But, you're correct, he isn't a great author. Seems about average to me, little above. I like Abercrombie a whole lot better.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: TaoHorror on October 07, 2017, 02:27:31 am
@Tao

Now thats just your opinion. He is a decent writer and has decent stories. Nothing groundbreaking, but not much out there is. I'd give him a B, on that scale. Red Queens War was definitely better then THe Broken Empire trilogy. I thought it best how they tied together and there was plenty enough to keep you interested. A decent read. He isn't horrible and his sales is a testament to that fact. If Banker sold like Lawrence we would be getting a TSA book, year in year out. But, you're correct, he isn't a great author. Seems about average to me, little above. I like Abercrombie a whole lot better.

I was being colorful for entertainment purposes - guess I failed, again! It was my twisted way of having Madness's back in his interaction with ML, don't mess with my friends! And to be clear ( think I sorta made the point in the mess that was my post ), I'm not insulting anyone who likes him - I'm sure there are plenty of reads I love that most think is trash, taste is taste. I did find POT boring without dimension or life, but that's me.

Shit, he sells more than Bakker? That's a crime.

Abercrombie is awesome, love his books.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: MSJ on October 07, 2017, 03:14:04 pm
@ Tao

You never offended me. Was just giving my opinion on the books. Once you've read Bakker the rest all feels YA. That's wy I asked H where all these GREAT books are. :)
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: TaoHorror on October 07, 2017, 04:03:53 pm
Yeah, Bakker has spoiled us. But someone will come along eventually to wow again - that and he's still with us and appears interested in writing more. I was sad when Herbert died thinking all the cool scifi died with him - then Simmons came along and cured me of that.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Madness on October 07, 2017, 05:04:46 pm
Anyone want to set me straight before I do something dumb ;)?

I just don't see why any of this is worth the effort, but maybe that's just me.

It's minimal effort to me and I said straight up to Wilshire that it was an product of my being frustrated and bored about my lack of time in real life.

I thought I was doing something productive. Now I'm just curious as to why someone so data-driven in his commentary on anything regarding the state of writing, publishing, and fiction is so flippant in his dismissal of a fan forum.

@Madness - I'd suggest against it, but it would probably generate interesting discussion. Like I said before, though. I think the hypothesis has a lot of variables to account for.

Please, freestyle with me. I'm not sure I can look at this situation thus far and isolate hypotheses or account for relevant variables.

I'm lucky if I can read a book a month, so I have to be selective now-a-days.

Fuck, I feel you, H.

I'd even venture to postulate that the hypothesis is almost impossible to prove in either direction without some massive study that would cost more to preform than the sum total of our GDP and possibly not even be possible without compounding variables spoiling the whole thing.

Yeah, I'm just interested in generating data. As Wilshire noted earlier this thread, I was very surprised by Lawrence's response, especially as such an obviously popular and accessible author and one who usually always bring data to any discussion he's involved in.

Shit, he sells more than Bakker? That's a crime.

By a long shot. Lawrence recently wrote a post on his blog asserting based on Goodreads data that he sells a thousand books a day.

Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Sausuna on October 09, 2017, 01:45:06 pm
@Madness - I'd suggest against it, but it would probably generate interesting discussion. Like I said before, though. I think the hypothesis has a lot of variables to account for.

Please, freestyle with me. I'm not sure I can look at this situation thus far and isolate hypotheses or account for relevant variables.
Well, I assume the point of contention is 'does a fan forum help book sales, harm books sales, or have no effect?' So one would probably want to look at book sales for an author before, during, and maybe even after (less important, probably) having a fan site. And then compare this to sale trends for other authors.

But there are a lot of other reasons a book may or may not sell. I'm hardly a researcher or economist, but I imagine below might be a few things to account for.
- General economic trends. I would think entertainment spending would be lower during bad periods.
- Prominence of the author. If an author has prior success, I assume it increases future sales, which might need to be looked at when comparing to other authors and prior sales.
- Marketing and publicity. I assume different publishers have different marketing ability to some degree. As well as the authors own willingness to travel for tours or reach out to people on the internet.
- Book price. I'm not entirely sure how such a thing is determined, but the price of hardback and paperback varies both between them and between individual books. Could influence sales a tad. One might be able to add something like cover art in here too, but that's getting a bit more into why people buy specific books.
- Nearby releases. If George R.R. Martin is releasing a book, it could affect sales of one author, given prominence of other interests in the genre.
- Accessibility of the fan site. Since I think Lawrence mentioned it, is it a subreddit, is the site linked often? Does it come up high on Google results? If people see the site as often as they might see other mentions, it'd probably have diminishing returns.

Anyway, I think these various things could affect sales and/or analyzing the relevant data trends to isolate effects.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: TaoHorror on October 09, 2017, 02:56:24 pm
I think fan forums, et al do drive sales in that they spread awareness and provide a place for fans to network and do fun stuff together like discuss the work, trying to figure it out, etc. I've purchased books based on recommendations in forums. I think the problem Bakker is facing is the very thing that could help sales is something he loathes, not just for himself, but as societal criticism - the drive to satisfy/to enjoy reduces the "learning", waters down the "sharing" the author is driving for. Popularizing cheapens the intellect, for both reader and author - or, at least I think that's what he's getting at ( ref: his unwillingness to set up a support site - forget what you call it, were people can sign up to be benefactors for an author/artist so they can afford to continue their work ).
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Madness on October 09, 2017, 08:37:09 pm
Anyway, I think these various things could affect sales and/or analyzing the relevant data trends to isolate effects.

Thanks for obliging me, Sausuna :).

I have, in fact, created an r/fantasy thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/75arbe/how_do_fan_forums_impact_author_sales/) after deliberating on it over the weekend. Lawrence has since deleted his blog post, though not responded on r/fantasy and a mutual friend has passed along a vaguely threatening private message on Lawrence's behalf.

As I said to Redeagl earlier, I'm fairly sure this is one of those issues that frequently arise in my life where I come off insensate, dispassionate, or obtuse, highlighting once again that I do not think like other people.

As far as I'm concerned, an attempt at a fan forum for Lawrence is dead in the water - given that we still have five members including Redeagl, Knee That Bends, and myself - as after TPB and Pat's Fantasy Hotlist linked SA we had a couple hundred registrations and Lawrence's fandom certainly exceeds Bakker's by a wide margin. I'm just interested in the question of how fan forums impact an author's sales.

I think fan forums, et al do drive sales in that they spread awareness and provide a place for fans to network and do fun stuff together like discuss the work, trying to figure it out, etc. I've purchased books based on recommendations in forums. I think the problem Bakker is facing is the very thing that could help sales is something he loathes, not just for himself, but as societal criticism - the drive to satisfy/to enjoy reduces the "learning", waters down the "sharing" the author is driving for. Popularizing cheapens the intellect, for both reader and author - or, at least I think that's what he's getting at ( ref: his unwillingness to set up a support site - forget what you call it, were people can sign up to be benefactors for an author/artist so they can afford to continue their work ).

Bakker has problems unique to himself ;).
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Redeagl on October 10, 2017, 10:19:50 am
The Reddit thread have blown up. Lol.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Madness on October 10, 2017, 04:29:56 pm
Indeed.
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Wilshire on October 24, 2017, 07:47:10 pm
You appear to have been out-foxed by someone with more far reaching subcommunity internet powers than yourself. He, obviously, knows how to play the internet sales and popularity game, and has far more power to do so than you.

To reflect on the question, why wouldn't Lawrence specifically want a forum, I'd suggest that its because he wouldn't be in charge. Per the comments in the reddit, he appears to enjoy a lot of influence in the places he chooses to frequent, making him defacto in charge of his own communities therein.

More generally, I suspect that a fan forum has little to no affect in any direction regarding sales. We often see people basically outright refusing to participate in more than one particular social media - ie, Facebookers stay on facebook, redditors stay on reddit, etc. The existence of a specific place likely only attracts people looking for that place, and does little to detract from any other.
The fear that it would drive down sales seems totally ludicrous. Popular things gain popularity by being popular ;).
Title: Re: The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment
Post by: Madness on October 27, 2017, 04:51:22 pm
Right.

*oscillates stalks*

Actually, since all that someone actually joined and made two threads ;).