The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: BeardFisher-King on March 15, 2017, 03:47:57 pm

Title: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 15, 2017, 03:47:57 pm
OK, unfortunately I don't have TGO at hand, but I found myself completely at sea at the end of TGO. Bakker is shifting back and forth from the scene with Kellhus, Esmi, Kelmomas, and the Narindar to the scene with P-splat-ma (h/t to another denizen of the TSA forum...), Kellhus, Meppa and Malowebi.

My question: is the narrative timeline linear? IIRC, Kellhus finishes the battle with Meppa and then grabs Malowebi, who asks, "What are you?" Kellhus responds, "Weary." Then Bakker shifts to the final scene in the palace, then shifts back to the creation of Malowebi 2.0. Anyone have a clue about the actual order of events?

BTW, if my Android device doesn't cease auto-correcting Bakker's name to "Banker", someone is getting a very stern letter....
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: H on March 15, 2017, 04:58:56 pm
Until proven otherwise, I think it is just an editing quirk/mistake/decision.
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 15, 2017, 05:41:01 pm
Until proven otherwise, I think it is just an editing quirk/mistake/decision.

I guess my question is: When does Kellhus encounter the Narindar et al? Is it after he sends Malowebi 2.0 on his demonic way? During the battle with Meppa? Before? I was trying to determine the sequence of events from the earthquake, but I'm not sure that's conclusive.
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: Wilshire on March 15, 2017, 06:11:18 pm
I'll look into it later tonight (hopefully). Read through the last section. I just cant remember at this point what the sequence is supposed to be if you assume its editing errors and not time-traveling-doppelgangers.
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: Monkhound on March 15, 2017, 11:02:52 pm
The way I read it, we witness a fork in the Decision Tree/ Tree of Events either "unhappen" or become obsolete/ impossible. It's so far unclear to me what exactly triggers this. To me it's a ripple in the timeflow somewhat like what happens just before Korringhus had his final revelation.
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: Redeagl on March 15, 2017, 11:18:42 pm
My interpretation was Kellhus defeats Meppa, beheads Malowebi, return to the palace and encounter TWLW. But yes there was definitely bad editing in that chapter.
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: themerchant on March 16, 2017, 12:03:12 am
I rationalised it by thinking he beheaded Malowbi, too a head from his girlde and fused it, took malowbi's head and attached it to his girlde, that turned demonic cause the demon had his face so he took the demons face. Thats why esmi see 2 heads on his Kellhus's girdle.
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: profgrape on March 16, 2017, 03:28:20 am
I think it's meant to be Malowebi's reliving his doom. As if his soul is trapped (see his reference to the Pursing) and he's continuously experiencing his last moments.

That being said, I didn't interpret it this way until I re-read the section today. 
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 16, 2017, 04:13:02 am
I think it's meant to be Malowebi's reliving his doom. As if his soul is trapped (see his reference to the Pursing) and he's continuously experiencing his last moments.

That being said, I didn't interpret it this way until I re-read the section today. 

Interesting, but I'm not sure he's reliving his last moments. Instead, Bakker gives us a particularly intense look of Malowebi's death from his doomed POV. I agree about the Pursing; I just don't see any hint of circularity.

My interpretation was Kellhus defeats Meppa, beheads Malowebi, return to the palace and encounter TWLW. But yes there was definitely bad editing in that chapter.

Not sure it was the fault of any perfidious editors. Actually, it's effective writing: imho, the disorienting shifts of POV and location give the reader some sense of what it must be like to encounter Kellhus in extremis. As Malowebi asks, "What are you?"

But your timeline is a valid one. Especially if you accept....

I rationalised it by thinking he beheaded Malowbi, too a head from his girlde and fused it, took malowbi's head and attached it to his girlde, that turned demonic cause the demon had his face so he took the demons face. Thats why esmi see 2 heads on his Kellhus's girdle.

Wow! I like this! But I lean to the theory that Kellhus visits the palace during the battle with Meppa. IIRC, Kellhus disappears at least once during the battle.

The way I read it, we witness a fork in the Decision Tree/ Tree of Events either "unhappen" or become obsolete/ impossible. It's so far unclear to me what exactly triggers this. To me it's a ripple in the timeflow somewhat like what happens just before Korringhus had his final revelation.

This explanation is above my pay grade. There are definitely timeflow difficulties, and timeflow difficulties always make my head hurt.

The shifting narrative style is very like that of the climax of TTT. I'm willing to wager that TUC ends in a blazingly virtuosic fugue of interlocking narrative POVs.
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: profgrape on March 20, 2017, 04:27:43 pm
Re: The Pursing, I wonder if Malowebi's head ends up tied to Kellhus' belt after the first scene. Meaning he becomes the second Decapitant referenced later in the chapter.  The Decapitants are sentient; maybe the final passage is from Dacapitant-Maliwebi's perspective?
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 20, 2017, 09:36:19 pm
Re: The Pursing, I wonder if Malowebi's head ends up tied to Kellhus' belt after the first scene. Meaning he becomes the second Decapitant referenced later in the chapter.  The Decapitants are sentient; maybe the final passage is from Dacapitant-Maliwebi's perspective?


Now we're cooking with gas! It's either that or Kellhus steps away from the battle with Meppa, takes care of business in the palace (with both of the original Decaps dangling), and then returns to battling Meppa.

I think your solution is more interesting. It allows for some arcane speculation on the necessity of keeping Malowebi's head. But wouldn't Esmenet notice the head of Malowebi? No, upon further review, I'm sticking with my theory, which has the virtue of leaving the timeline intact.
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: profgrape on March 20, 2017, 11:34:45 pm
You never know, Esmi's first line in TUC, while weeping at Kellhus' feet could be something like "why the fuck is Morgan Freeman's head on your belt?"

Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 21, 2017, 01:22:00 am
You never know, Esmi's first line in TUC, while weeping at Kellhus' feet could be something like "why the fuck is Morgan Freeman's head on your belt?"



Ha ha! That's a long shot, but I like the way you think. Hey, that would make a great thread: "Possible opening lines for TUC".
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: MSJ on March 21, 2017, 03:22:41 pm
I think that Malowebi is on Kellhus's belt. Just it doesn't look like Malowebi pre-death, but post-death. Hence, he looks like a Ciphrang an entity of the Outside.

ETA: if I remember correctly, Malowebi remarks that after the transformation he sees a Malowebi that isn't truly Malowebi. What I am saying is Demon-Malowebi looks exactly like Malowebi. Probably the same with the Captain. So, I'd assume, at the end of TGO, we have Ciphrang Malowebi and Ciphrang whoever on Kellhus's belt.
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: themerchant on March 21, 2017, 03:49:45 pm
My guess on the decapitants is one is Kosoter and one is now Malowebi.
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: MSJ on March 21, 2017, 03:51:15 pm
My guess on the decapitants is one is Kosoter and one is now Malowebi.

I concur.
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 27, 2017, 02:45:32 pm
Re: The Pursing, I wonder if Malowebi's head ends up tied to Kellhus' belt after the first scene. Meaning he becomes the second Decapitant referenced later in the chapter.  The Decapitants are sentient; maybe the final passage is from Dacapitant-Maliwebi's perspective?


Now we're cooking with gas! It's either that or Kellhus steps away from the battle with Meppa, takes care of business in the palace (with both of the original Decaps dangling), and then returns to battling Meppa.

I think your solution is more interesting. It allows for some arcane speculation on the necessity of keeping Malowebi's head. But wouldn't Esmenet notice the head of Malowebi? No, upon further review, I'm sticking with my theory, which has the virtue of leaving the timeline intact.

Well, I am forced to abandon my theory that Kellhus teleported to the palace during the battle with Meppa, since Kellhus tells Esmenet that Fanayal is dead. That clearly establishes a timeline for Kellhus: He arrives in Momemn, kills Fanayal, tosses Psatma, vanquishes Meppa, transforms Malowebi, and then he goes to the palace to "salvage what [he] can".

My guess on the decapitants is one is Kosoter and one is now Malowebi.
I rationalised it by thinking he beheaded Malowbi, too a head from his girlde and fused it, took malowbi's head and attached it to his girlde, that turned demonic cause the demon had his face so he took the demons face. Thats why esmi see 2 heads on his Kellhus's girdle.

OK. So apparently Malowebi's head (great band name, btw...) is on Kellhus' girdle (not such a good band name, imho...). That's believable. Barely. As for the second Decapitant's head being Kosoter's....I don't buy it. Where's Ciphrang- Kosoter? Where's the scene of Kellhus reanimating the headless corpse of Kosoter? How would Kellhus even find the headless corpse of Kosoter? How would Kellhus find Sarl, who is in possession of Kosoter's head? Questions.....

Speaking of questions, this new timeline leads to a new speculative question: Who survives the earthquake? It seems clear to me that Issiral does not survive; however, does anyone else die? Kellhus?  Esmenet?  Kelmomas?

God,  I hope Kelmomas is dead. I'm tired of his sorry ass.
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: profgrape on March 27, 2017, 03:05:35 pm
Speaking of questions, this new timeline leads to a new speculative question: Who survives the earthquake? It seems clear to me that Issiral does not survive; however, does anyone else die? Kellhus?  Esmenet?  Kelmomas?

God,  I hope Kelmomas is dead. I'm tired of his sorry ass.

On my first read (the ARC), I came away thinking that Esme was dead.  But on re-reads (released version), it seems pretty obvious that Issiral is the one who dies.  Consider this bit:

Quote
[Kellmomas] saw the man he had mistook for Ajokli fall to his knees between tumbling immensities.  He saw it then, the terror of ignorance that is the curse of mortality; he apprehended the man's sickening humanity the instant stone clapped it into oblivion.

I interpret "stone clapped it into oblivion" as Issiral becoming a panini sandwich.

As I gave away my ARC, I don't actually know whether there's a difference in the text, or if I just read it so fast that I missed it. 
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: Wilshire on March 27, 2017, 03:47:05 pm
As I gave away my ARC, I don't actually know whether there's a difference in the text, or if I just read it so fast that I missed it. 
For what its worth, its extremely unlikely that there were any changes from ARC to Release. Pre-ARC versions, like what Madness got years ago for TGO, or whoever received those spiral bound copies of TUC, are very likely to have changes. However, once the book gets to ARC, especially for a mediocre publishing house like Overlook, it might as well be the final cut.
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: themerchant on March 27, 2017, 04:03:49 pm
Re: The Pursing, I wonder if Malowebi's head ends up tied to Kellhus' belt after the first scene. Meaning he becomes the second Decapitant referenced later in the chapter.  The Decapitants are sentient; maybe the final passage is from Dacapitant-Maliwebi's perspective?


Now we're cooking with gas! It's either that or Kellhus steps away from the battle with Meppa, takes care of business in the palace (with both of the original Decaps dangling), and then returns to battling Meppa.

I think your solution is more interesting. It allows for some arcane speculation on the necessity of keeping Malowebi's head. But wouldn't Esmenet notice the head of Malowebi? No, upon further review, I'm sticking with my theory, which has the virtue of leaving the timeline intact.

Well, I am forced to abandon my theory that Kellhus teleported to the palace during the battle with Meppa, since Kellhus tells Esmenet that Fanayal is dead. That clearly establishes a timeline for Kellhus: He arrives in Momemn, kills Fanayal, tosses Psatma, vanquishes Meppa, transforms Malowebi, and then he goes to the palace to "salvage what [he] can".

My guess on the decapitants is one is Kosoter and one is now Malowebi.
I rationalised it by thinking he beheaded Malowbi, too a head from his girlde and fused it, took malowbi's head and attached it to his girlde, that turned demonic cause the demon had his face so he took the demons face. Thats why esmi see 2 heads on his Kellhus's girdle.

OK. So apparently Malowebi's head (great band name, btw...) is on Kellhus' girdle (not such a good band name, imho...). That's believable. Barely. As for the second Decapitant's head being Kosoter's....I don't buy it. Where's Ciphrang- Kosoter? Where's the scene of Kellhus reanimating the headless corpse of Kosoter? How would Kellhus even find the headless corpse of Kosoter? How would Kellhus find Sarl, who is in possession of Kosoter's head? Questions.....



Nah Kosoter was a demon the whole time in TAE. That explains why he looks like one under the gaze of the judging eye. His real head hangs from Kellhus head and the demonic one hangs from Sarls beard.

WLW dies, it's pretty much hinted at in the scenes he "sees" before they happen, going into his mothers embrace or words to that effect, in addition to the quoted text above.
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 27, 2017, 04:34:53 pm
Quote from: themerchant
Nah Kosoter was a demon the whole time in TAE. That explains why he looks like one under the gaze of the judging eye. His real head hangs from Kellhus head and the demonic one hangs from Sarls beard.

WLW dies, it's pretty much hinted at in the scenes he "sees" before they happen, going into his mothers embrace or words to that effect, in addition to the quoted text above.

So your argument is that at some point Kellhus beheaded Kosoter and reanimated him with one of the Decapitants. As a result of doing so, the Decapitant's head sorcerously takes on the form of Kosoter's head, and that's why throughout TJE and TWLW Demon-Kosoter looks like Kosoter.

Myself, I envision the sorcerous transformation of Malowebi as one that has Malowebi's body fused to the Ciphrang's head, and the resulting abomination does not look like Malowebi. That's why I had so much trouble with Kellhus still having two Decapitants  in the palace scene.

Your theory does have the benefit of clearing that matter up. Do we have any evidence that the Metagnosis can accomplish this type of transformation? Or is this something Kellhus adapted from the Daimos?

You never know, Esmi's first line in TUC, while weeping at Kellhus' feet could be something like "why the fuck is Morgan Freeman's head on your belt?"



I love the idea of Demon-Malowebi returning to Zeum looking all Ciphranged-up: "What the fuck is this thing? And why is it wearing Morgan Freeman's clothes?"
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: Wilshire on March 27, 2017, 06:00:40 pm
I thought it was transformed to look like the original head once placed. Seems hardly worth the effort if the thing looked like a Demon.

I doubt Kosotor would have been beheaded by surprise, and his re-decapitated-ciphrange-head subsequently tied to another's beard without anyone realize or mentioning it. For one, he'd be more powerful than that, and two, I'd imagine that once redecapitated it would transform back to ciphrange.
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 27, 2017, 10:49:56 pm
I thought it was transformed to look like the original head once placed. Seems hardly worth the effort if the thing looked like a Demon.

I doubt Kosotor would have been beheaded by surprise, and his re-decapitated-ciphrange-head subsequently tied to another's beard without anyone realize or mentioning it. For one, he'd be more powerful than that, and two, I'd imagine that once redecapitated it would transform back to ciphrange.

When you suggested that it wouldn't be worth the effort if the thing didn't look like Malowebi, it made me think about what Kellhus is trying to accomplish.

For starters, those Decapitants are extremely valuable, now that we know they can be reanimated and commanded. Second, they do not reanimate in their original (?) form; rather, they take the form of the body to which they're fused. So Kellhus now has an agent, who appears to be Malowebi, that he has sent on a mission to end the line of Nganka'kull. Presumably, that's a mission within the demon's scope. It will be interesting to see to what purpose Kellhus uses the second Decapitant.

Speaking of transformations, this thread appears to be turning into a discussion of the Decapitants. Also, I never thought I'd see the word "redecapitated" used in a coherent sentence. The wonders of fantasy fiction. Well done, Wilshire!
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: Wilshire on March 27, 2017, 11:13:47 pm
Yeah I'm happy with  redecapitated lol.

Anyway, they are like his very own demon skin spies. Maybe he has more than two in motion?
I got the idea from the Nonman  scene where they asked to touch Kellhus face in WLW.
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: MSJ on March 28, 2017, 04:08:35 am
Yeah I'm happy with  redecapitated lol.

Anyway, they are like his very own demon skin spies. Maybe he has more than two in motion?
I got the idea from the Nonman  scene where they asked to touch Kellhus face in WLW.

Well, I tell you what sold me on the idea if Malowebi and maybe Kosoter also on his belt. When they are decapitated, hence dead, they transform into what they would be in the Outside. So it's not like switching places with each other. The Ciphrang takes the look of Malowebi, but Malowebi was damned and would be a Ciphrang (or something near it) on the Outside. Just my logic.
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: themerchant on March 28, 2017, 12:15:00 pm
Quote from: themerchant
Nah Kosoter was a demon the whole time in TAE. That explains why he looks like one under the gaze of the judging eye. His real head hangs from Kellhus head and the demonic one hangs from Sarls beard.

WLW dies, it's pretty much hinted at in the scenes he "sees" before they happen, going into his mothers embrace or words to that effect, in addition to the quoted text above.

So your argument is that at some point Kellhus beheaded Kosoter and reanimated him with one of the Decapitants. As a result of doing so, the Decapitant's head sorcerously takes on the form of Kosoter's head, and that's why throughout TJE and TWLW Demon-Kosoter looks like Kosoter.

Myself, I envision the sorcerous transformation of Malowebi as one that has Malowebi's body fused to the Ciphrang's head, and the resulting abomination does not look like Malowebi. That's why I had so much trouble with Kellhus still having two Decapitants  in the palace scene.

Your theory does have the benefit of clearing that matter up. Do we have any evidence that the Metagnosis can accomplish this type of transformation? Or is this something Kellhus adapted from the Daimos?

You never know, Esmi's first line in TUC, while weeping at Kellhus' feet could be something like "why the fuck is Morgan Freeman's head on your belt?"



I love the idea of Demon-Malowebi returning to Zeum looking all Ciphranged-up: "What the fuck is this thing? And why is it wearing Morgan Freeman's clothes?"

I'm trying to construct a reason for Kellhus having two decapitants on his belt when he goes to see Esmi, as it seems like he put one of them on Malowebi neck and fused it to his body.

Malowbi seeing himself reborn in demonic replica as stated in the books was interpreted by me to mean the demon took on the exact form of him. Then Kellhus has two heads when he goes to meet Esmi and ostensibly his fate at the hands of the WLW. The only spare head kicking around is Malowebi's. So i assumed he put that on his girdle. Yet it is described as a ciphrang. So if the demons head turns into his replica, then i thought the converse could occur.

It's hardly airtight but the best explanation i can think of that can cover the bases best. It's more my best effort to fling a blanket over every point as opposed to being deduced logically :D

Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: themerchant on March 28, 2017, 12:18:34 pm
Yeah I'm happy with  redecapitated lol.

Anyway, they are like his very own demon skin spies. Maybe he has more than two in motion?
I got the idea from the Nonman  scene where they asked to touch Kellhus face in WLW.

asked to touch him and they sort of clapsed hands and slid their fingers off each other, don't think they touched his face. I could be wrong though, just what my memory says happened. But i walk into rooms sometimes and forget why i came in. So don#t take anything i say as gospel :p
Title: Re: [TGO spoilers] Timeline confusion at conclusion of TGO
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 28, 2017, 12:35:05 pm
But i walk into rooms sometimes and forget why i came in. So don#t take anything i say as gospel :p

Hey, who the hell doesn't do that? I will go into a room, forget why I came in, then go out and then forget why I left that room. The only cure? See if I can find the fridge and grab a beer. Then look for the bottle opener. Voila, a new project!  :)