The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: Zadok on June 03, 2014, 01:08:09 am
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I was re-reading TJE and it struck me as odd that Mimara wasn't able to identify Soma when she saw him with the Judging Eye. Surely he would've at least appeared different from all the other Skin Eaters but she doesn't remark on it. Or is it possible to be damned even when you don't have a soul?
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If I recall correctly, the moment you're thinking of the Eye specifically closes before Mimara looks at Soma... Though, I'd need to check my TJE.
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Zadok.
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Possibly, I may be confused because of the Chorae, I assumed when she was seeing it as the light that meant her Eye was open.
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Some discussion on this topic:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=907.msg14480#msg14480
Also take a look at TJE p612 (Canadian paperback). Some differences in page numbering exist between editions, but its in chapter 16.
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Hi Zadok! There are so many things I want to see with Mimara's judging eye: skin spies, Kellhus, the Consult, the No-God, the Heron Spear, qirri, shit-herders, and myself. Maybe we'll get a chapter in The Unholy Consult where Mimi is just looking at things that parade in front of her :P
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I read the chapter again, it seems like Soma comes over and starts talking to her right after the Judging Eye opens and the Chorae transforms. I thought seeing the Chorae as the bright light was related to the Eye being open but then she wonders if Kosoter's Chorae would also shine in her "natural"(assuming this meant the Eye is closed) sight. But then in the WLW there's no mention of the bright Chorae until she sees Kosoter with the Judging Eye. She even described them as "dark little twins sucking oblivion" earlier, so I'm not sure what to think.
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"Where did you get that?" Soma asks. He is crouching before her, nodding to the Chorae in her palm - or to what used to be a Chorae ...
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"I did not come for riches." She studies his dark, handsome face through the threads of shining white radiating from her palm. "So you don't see the light?"
He glances up at the Surillic Point, frowning. "I see it plainly enough..." He looks back at her, eyebrows raised. "It's you I'm having difficulty seeing, with that thing pressed against your skin. You look like a... breathing shadow..."
"I mean this," she says, raising her palm. "What do you see when you look at this?"
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"A ball of shadow," he says slowly.
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Why does a skin spy see a chorae as a ball of shadow?
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I imagine the chorae is canceling the light from the surillic point rather than being indicative of Tsuor's unique perspective.
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I imagine the chorae is canceling the light from the surillic point rather than being indicative of Tsuor's unique perspective.
This. I read the exerpt and thought at first that he must be unable to see the chorae, but Curethan's post cleared that up. I now recall that in the context of the whole text it does appear that he surrilic light cannot reach Mim because of the chorae's effect.
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I imagine the chorae is canceling the light from the surillic point rather than being indicative of Tsuor's unique perspective.
This. I read the exerpt and thought at first that he must be able to see the chorae, but Curethan's post cleared that up. I now recall that in the context of the whole text it does appear that he surrilic light cannot read Mim because of the chorae's effect.
Unless Tsuor is lying about what he sees!!!
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I think everyone sees it as such, not just the skinspy. The light produced by the Surrilic Point is magical in nature, and therefore the chorae cancels the effects.
Curiously, only the corae and a small radius around it is untouched by the light. One might think that, when touching the chorae, you would be unable to see any of the light, and the entire person would be cast in shadows.
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I don't really think Tsüor has a soul (he can't seem to grasp paradoxes, as we have seen -- the paradoxical joking of the Skin-Eaters in TJE being one example...although that could just be a purposeful charade, but I doubt it). I do, however, definitely believe that the whole "skin-spy with a soul" concept will be important later on, and that it's actually not an "anomaly", but an intentional creation by the Consult that is perhaps extremely difficult to produce, or is for some reason a limited resource. I feel the situation with the original Mandate Grandmaster (can't remember his name, the one Maithanet reveals and kills) being an ensouled skin-spy was more of an early indicator that such creatures are actually possible, since in the grand scheme of things it really didn't seem have much significance plotwise...aside from showing off some early Maithanet-badassery (and who doesn't want as much of that as possible?).
I also think there's the possibility of an ensouled sranc, or perhaps more likely, an Ursranc. Given the brief sranc-chieftain's POV from the WLW (which came off as a barely cognizant, idiotic beast whose internal thoughts consisted primarily of KILL-MURDER-FUCK"), it seems really, really weird to me that a being of such power as Mekeritrig would use one a regular old sranc as his freaking elju, a responsibility (a privilege even, to some) of enormous importance the Erratic in question. I mean this guy is the main Nonman representative of the Consult, and one of the four agencies that forms its entire leadership (along with Shauriatas, Aurax, and Aurang).
This could just be chalked up to conditioning/training of the sranc-elju, or perhaps even a bit of early world-building inconsistency, which we already have at least one example of in that prologue section.
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The thing called Simas.
The scene in question reveals that Moenghus has broken his captive skin spies. This is how they know there is a magic using skin-spy within the Mandate that must be removed before they go to meet Kellhus.
Maithanet explains that the thing called Simas is an unpredicted, un-reproducible anomaly based on the same source of information - captured directly from the Consult. I feel like its probably legit in regard to further speculation.
I think an Elju is only used to prompt an Erratic along his pre-determined course, but they must have a face/manner that will remind the Erratic to listen to them. Some resemblance to they few (traumatic) memories they constantly carry. Sranc have the same faces as Nonmen, so Mek's could be one that resembles his dead wife or whatever and only needs to be able to provide simple reminders, like he's heading to Golgotteroth or whatever.
However...
It's interesting to note that Maitha captures the skin-spy rather than killing it.
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I do, however, definitely believe that the whole "skin-spy with a soul" concept will be important later on, and that it's actually not an "anomaly", but an intentional creation by the Consult that is perhaps extremely difficult to produce, or is for some reason a limited resource..
Maybe, it's just a considerations of outer control and inner efficiency. Would be funny if ensouled skinspy is easy to make and soulsess one is hard.
I also think there's the possibility of an ensouled sranc, or perhaps more likely, an Ursranc.
As far as I remember, Bakker mentioned that even animals in Earwa can have souls, though it's an almost impossibly-rare situation. It's all about complexity of someone's conciousness, right?
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The thing called Simas.
The scene in question reveals that Moenghus has broken his captive skin spies. This is how they know there is a magic using skin-spy within the Mandate that must be removed before they go to meet Kellhus.
Maithanet explains that the thing called Simas is an unpredicted, un-reproducible anomaly based on the same source of information - captured directly from the Consult. I feel like its probably legit in regard to further speculation. .
I think Moe ensouled it and sent Maitha to "expose" it so Maitha and the Mandate would arrive at the same time, also gives Maitha instant kudos with the mandate. The only person who said it was a consult abberation was Maitha himself. Pretty handy he has something that seems to instantly remove any misgivings about the shriah being here. After all everyone though the skin spies were from the Cish, as that was the enemy they knew. The mandate think consult, cause that's the enemy they know.
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Well, I don't necessarily agree with that turn of events, but I do think it's possible that Meppa is that same skin spy - just reprogrammed.
He's described with nut brown skin, and the Kian are fair iirc. Funny how he wears a magical blindfold too.
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@FB - an ensouled, sorcerous ursranc would just be cool as fuck!
man, i wonder what the dunyain could do breeding sranc for a couple of centuries
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I think you'll need more than selective breeding to change Sranc. They seem to have changed remarkably little in the thousands of years they've existed considering their extremely fast rate of reproduction. Their genes are still true enough that the pheromone triggers or whatever the Consult agents use to command Sranc bands they take over mostly work. I imagine the Consult, being good engineers, has filled their genome with selfish genetic elements that prevent mutations from successfully infiltrating the genome and propagating, watering down the product. At least around key genes. Such things are possible and highly effective even against selection pressure, to the point that some selfish genetic elements that are highly detrimental to their host have spread any way in a number of insect species, driving them to complete extinction when they wound up having no males being born.
On Simas...I wonder when he was replaced? If it was all the way back when he was a student, then that means he touched Seswatha's heart and dreamed the dreams. I wonder what that would do to a Consult agent?
Although I suppose to a Skin-Spy, Seswatha's dreams might be pure ecstasy. Perfect masturbatory fantasies of death and destruction and obscenity.
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I doubt the Dreams would have much interest to the Consult, other than trying to manipulate them. They know better than anyone how the First Apocalypse went down. They wouldn't need to see it through the eyes of their enemies. Like you said though, the skin-spy probably rather enjoyed it, up until the death of the no-god. Might be too tough to reconcile that one.
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Doesn't Akka contact Simas through the Dreams? That would suggest the skin spy has performed the grasping at some point.
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I can't remember where, but someone was talking about Simas being a skin-spy produced by Moenghus or edited by him. I wonder if the skin-spy that killed Xerius was a Moe agent too?
The top of the jnanic chain seems to be: Nansur Emperor, Shriah, De facto ruler of High Ainon, and Kianen Padirajah. All of these must be removed/dominated/allied with Kellhus in order for him to unify the 3 seas.
By TTT, Kellhus has an ally in the Shriah, has killed the Padirajah and is pursuing the next one, has Eleazarus under his thumb, and only needs to remove Xerius.
That the skin-spy is working for Moenghus--how in the world would it let itself be caught so easy! It was just waiting to be discovered and then kill, kill, kill!
Lol - mundane sight, arcane sight, the judging eye - 3 sees
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I just don't see how Moenghus would have learned the Tekne.
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I just don't see how Moenghus would have learned the Tekne.
reverse engineering? he wouldn't have to know everything, just how to turn an agent. maybe neuropuncture directly and also on other skin-spies to get them to cough up what they know about tekne. the consult never considering this as a possibility, may have let slip a lot of knowledge in front of skin-spies. this is something aurang fears in TTT when he calls the skin-spies to set the trap to kill akka
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Considering the Skin-Spies didn't even know what the Inverse Fire was I doubt they were given lectures on the fundaments of synthetic biology, since it's absolutely useless to them in their work.
He doesn't have the tools to reverse engineer anything, either. Earwa hasn't even invented the microscope. Moenghus would have to recapitulate something like 400 years of human scientific advancement, by himself, in less than 20, starting from nothing more than perhaps a very basic concept akin to Mendellian genetics.
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Just speaking for myself, all of that stuff just goes into my suspension of disbelief! Question is if Bakker is writing to the dumber reader like me???
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That would certainly break mine, given how well crafted the universe has been so far.
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Magics cast on someone affect them the same if they can see the Onta or not. Whether is boiling flesh or or cants of compulsion, the effect is the same. I doubt receiving dreams is any different.
I think Simas may have gotten away with not grasping and not learning any of the gnostic cants/wards if he wasn't in place to too long. Its no likely that he had opportunities to actually practice the Gnosis. Also, he might have even used anagogic equivalents for minor tasks using the Cuniori tongue, for minor things that he had to do (like light candles or other such mundane tasks). A proper spy could get away with a lot and not be noticed.
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It's not like there's no one at Golgotterath that could have taught the-thing-called-Simas the Gnosis before they deployed him, though. They have Aurang, Aurax, Shauriatas and the entire surviving Mangaecca school, and a wide variety of Nonmen Quya.
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Totally forgot about that. I often forget that the Mandate are not the only ones left in the Three Seas that know the gnosis. No grasping needed.