[The Great Scald]

I want to hear some input from the Bakker-reading crowd on this serious dilemma I've had.

Is there anything of value in the world? The answer, at least to me, seems to be "No". I've long had these ideas myself, and reading up on neuroscience basically confirmed them. Neuroscience definitely seems to prove that meanings and purposes (as we see them) don't actually exist and that "the self" is an illusion of bio-chemistry. We're not "real". Consciousness fools us all into believing that we're real instead of a puppet of our biology. The old-school pessimist philosophers like Schopenhauer have the same view - that every single thought, idea, concept, image, symbol, and representation are fundamentally distractions that prevent people from realizing that everything is meaningless.

Last week, I read Thomas Ligotti's The Conspiracy Against The Human Race, a book I really recommend to anyone who liked Neuropath: http://forums.philosophyforums.com/download.php?attachid=4970

Reading this book was sort of enlightening to me, although probably the most depressing kind of "enlightenment" imaginable. Most of these ideas were thoughts I'd already had myself, but Ligotti's book made things a lot clearer. He's basically a Schopenhauer-style pessimist who writes that life isn't worth living and explains the reasons why. Through the whole book, I couldn't find anything to disagree with.

I've been thinking about suicide on and off, over the last few weeks. On some level, I obviously have the instinct for self-preservation, which is probably the main thing keeping me from killing myself. I've tried going to a psychiatrist, but half the time he doesn't understand what the hell I'm talking about. I take antidepressant pills, but they're not helping much. I've stopped going to my uni lectures and basically don't give a shit about anything. I've stopped going to work. Since I now know that my life is meaningless, and that all "goals" are pointless distractions created by chemical reactions in my head, I don't do much at all.

To use Bakker's terms, going back to "Disney World" isn't really possible for me anymore. I want to, but it's impossible. I'm not good at compartmentalizing my thoughts and willfully ignoring stuff. There's some philosophy professors (Brassier, for example) who have wives and kids that they love, follow society's norms and rules in their daily lives, and then go to their universities (or wherever) and hold lectures about the meaningless and deterministic nature of reality without breaking a sweat. I'm not one of those. I can't live a lie. But neither can I really, fully be a nihilist/determinist and stay sane.

I tend to agree with Bakker (and Lovecraft, etc) that there are realities so hostile and alien that human minds can't handle them. But once you've stumbled onto these truths, what can you do?

(To be honest, I wish I'd never read Bakker, Schopenhauer, Brassier, Ligotti, Cioran or any of those authors. But what's done can't be undone.)

[The Great Scald]

It's really a weird dilemma, because on the one hand, I obviously want to live, but on the other hand, I realize that life is pointless and shitty.

If I keep living with this knowledge, I really don't know what to do. I definitely don't want to end up like Rust from "True Detective", that's for sure.

[Francis Buck]

I just go along for the ride. I'm programmed to believe I'm making decisions (I don't really think I am), and that everyone else is too. Until I can change my programming, I can do nothing but gain what joys I can out of life (or, take what joys life hands to me). Existing is interesting. I'm in no rush to face oblivion, even if ultimately the when/how I get there is meaningless.

If I keep living with this knowledge, I really don't know what to do. I definitely don't want to end up like Rust from "True Detective", that's for sure.

I just don't think about it. Or I try not to. This is hard, because I think about this shit constantly. At least once a day I stop and think, "This is pointless. I'm basically a robot." Then I shake the thoughts from my head and move on. I use art to express my troubles in this regard.

The only answer is not to think about it. Not until we can change it. 

[Francis Buck]

I might ask if you are married or have a partner of any kind?

ETA: I'm being overly simplistic here because I don't have time to properly answer but I feel I should elaborate at least a little, since I feel for you as personally I deal with this shit daily, all the time.

When I say, "Just don't think about it," I don't mean never, ever think about it and become a drone in Disney world. But I do mean to live a lie. LIVE THE LIE. Why the fuck not? Wring out every ounce of substance from this existence that's possible. Value doesn't exist, no. Everything is meaningless. But we, as human beings, create the illusion of meaning. We may not be doing it intentionally (after all, it's just a chemical process), but that's the lie that we need. Don't abandon your enlightenment. This is the great curse of consciousness.

But suicide does NOTHING. Most of the time it amounts largely to causing unnecessary pain to those around you. And, after all, it's not you deciding to do it anyway, is it? It's your brain's mechanistic chemical process. So if you're willing to sit there and debate suicide, then you're already living the lie. Keep living it, and do it better.

[Royce]

This makes me a bit sad Auriga. You don`t have to be so convinced that all these people you read actually are right in their assumptions. I know that it is pretty convincing though, since I (and probably everyone on this board) share your perspective. I am sad, because I have been there, and I know there is a way out(at least for me there was). Of course I do not know you, and we are all very different, but we are also very much alike. I have mentioned this many times in other treads, but a healthy dose of psilocybin mushrooms can work wonders. I am not saying it will work for you, only that it worked for me. It is important that you do your homework if decide to do this.Read about it. I would also recommend that you give Alan Watts a chance. He may be the only guy who have gotten my out of a depression by using words. The book: On the taboo against knowing who you are, is pure brilliance IMO. Just do me(this guy you do not know:)) a favor and read that one. Writing might also help, write all that shit down. It might give you new perspective.

Here is a little quote: "When you know for sure that your separate ego is a fiction, you actually feel yourself as the whole process and pattern of life." Psychedelics make you feel this, seriously. PM me if you want to talk more about this.
 

[Francis Buck]

Yeah, Alan Watts is fantastic. +1 that recommendation.

[Cüréthañ]

It is true that value and meaning are invested attributes.  But why should this make them illusory simply because they have no material reality?
Do you define logic and mathematics as illusory?

By your own definition, are they not manufactured by the functions of our biological processes?  In which case they do come from without, but it's your game to manage and direct them.

Personally, I disagree that free will is an illusion.  Certainly, the latitude of our ability to determine our own actions is grossly over-estimated and the realization of this has led many to consider that the opposite is true.  Especially the depressive philosophers like Schopenhauer et al. 

I would recommend reading up on chaos and complex systems if you think that we live in a clockwork, predetermined universe.  "Chaos" by James Gleik is an easy read that changed the way I look at the world.  Nothing ever repeats perfectly, so how can we truly be bound to repeat ourselves?  Our behaviours are bifurcating chaotic patterns, they may look similar but differences propagate, multiply and are winnowed. 

Personally I'd much rather live in a bounteous world where we have just randomly wound up with the ability to experience joy, pleasure and fulfilment than some bullshit world where we struggle to understand some great meaning imposed from without.  So what if I can trace my enjoyment of chocolate to some childhood experience and a genetic predisposition and my enjoyment doesn't really matter?  Still better than knowing that bad shit happens because the universe has some ultimate plan or function.

Honestly, you sound somewhat depressed.  That's cool, but you need to avoid dwelling on existential bullshit like this.  Set yourself a challenge, change something about yourself and tell me if the highs and lows you experience on that journey are worthwhile or not. 

Behavioural systems are certainly based on repetition and reinforcement, but rationality and the ability to change your environment are very real ways to change or instill new values within your life.  Psychological development is the process of practicing mental eugenics, embrace your ability to apprehend patterns and apply rational logic in order to direct your development and you can achieve many things, not least of which is learning to value your own existence. 

Sitting about wondering if you are wasting your time and getting morose is a mug's game.  Fuck the cold reality of the universe, it will go on without you.

@Royce; if you are going to drop mushies in a depressed state, ensure that you have a trusted buddy that will help you by discussing the issues you are struggling with

[Madness]

I'm responding but I do want to note that please seek out every available counter-argument (including, and especially, direct criticisms of the authors who have affected this "negative enlightenment" in you - obviously also help-line, educated psychologists/clinicians, etc; though, it sounds like you are in the process of engaging these resources to no avail).

Is there anything of value in the world? The answer, at least to me, seems to be "No". I've long had these ideas myself, and reading up on neuroscience basically confirmed them. Neuroscience definitely seems to prove that meanings and purposes (as we see them) don't actually exist and that "the self" is an illusion of bio-chemistry. We're not "real". Consciousness fools us all into believing that we're real instead of a puppet of our biology. The old-school pessimist philosophers like Schopenhauer have the same view - that every single thought, idea, concept, image, symbol, and representation are fundamentally distractions that prevent people from realizing that everything is meaningless.

You've not seen the value I do in my views in other, similar conversations so I won't reiterate them here. I believe you are valuable in that you have unique experiences and knowledge unavailable to me and you've already expanded me much in your interaction here in the past (almost) twoish years.

Last week, I read Thomas Ligotti's The Conspiracy Against The Human Race, a book I really recommend to anyone who liked Neuropath: http://forums.philosophyforums.com/download.php?attachid=4970

Reading this book was sort of enlightening to me, although probably the most depressing kind of "enlightenment" imaginable. Most of these ideas were thoughts I'd already had myself, but Ligotti's book made things a lot clearer. He's basically a Schopenhauer-style pessimist who writes that life isn't worth living and explains the reasons why. Through the whole book, I couldn't find anything to disagree with.

To be fair, people say Neuropath is the amateur Ligotti. My main question of such thinkers is "are the criterion by which you establish meaninglessness a result of sociocultural organization as it has stood/stands?" If so, then every nihilist has an obligation to affect change in society and cultural to prove that every sociocultural arrangement actually does result in meaninglessness.

I've been thinking about suicide on and off, over the last few weeks. On some level, I obviously have the instinct for self-preservation, which is probably the main thing keeping me from killing myself. I've tried going to a psychiatrist, but half the time he doesn't understand what the hell I'm talking about. I take antidepressant pills, but they're not helping much. I've stopped going to my uni lectures and basically don't give a shit about anything. I've stopped going to work. Since I now know that my life is meaningless, and that all "goals" are pointless distractions created by chemical reactions in my head, I don't do much at all.

I know I haven't been where you are. I've had dances with the darkness and I can't concisely say what chance stayed my hand. In part, I'm with FB in saying that existing interests me.

However, why is the goal of suicide the result? How do you know that all those thinkers that contribute to this worldview aren't poor arguers (beyond the fact that they seem to have convinced you whose intelligence I found refreshing).

If what exists, if what we experience is inherently meaninglessness, what is to stop us, truly, from making that meaninglessness beautiful? Why does the result always have to be incapacitation? Why does the reaction have to be one of apathetic futility?

To use Bakker's terms, going back to "Disney World" isn't really possible for me anymore. I want to, but it's impossible. I'm not good at compartmentalizing my thoughts and willfully ignoring stuff. There's some philosophy professors (Brassier, for example) who have wives and kids that they love, follow society's norms and rules in their daily lives, and then go to their universities (or wherever) and hold lectures about the meaningless and deterministic nature of reality without breaking a sweat. I'm not one of those. I can't live a lie. But neither can I really, fully be a nihilist/determinist and stay sane.

I don't know what to say, Auriga. Isn't it possible that there is coherency beyond what our human brains can perceive? Isn't it likely that humans don't actually know enough about anything for nihilism, religions, philosophy to be "the way things are?"

I tend to agree with Bakker (and Lovecraft, etc) that there are realities so hostile and alien that human minds can't handle them. But once you've stumbled onto these truths, what can you do?

(To be honest, I wish I'd never read Bakker, Schopenhauer, Brassier, Ligotti, Cioran or any of those authors. But what's done can't be undone.)

They all have their detractors. And in the end, it's about you. You are now, not them. It's about inking your response to the mystery.

It's really a weird dilemma, because on the one hand, I obviously want to live, but on the other hand, I realize that life is pointless and shitty.

If I keep living with this knowledge, I really don't know what to do. I definitely don't want to end up like Rust from "True Detective", that's for sure.

I'm not sure where I myself stand. Many of Bakker's fandom seem to be comfortably/uncomfortably nearing Rust/Neil/Kellhus, etc. I know I'm not.

I want to engage life. I refuse to not try and change the world. One life. And I'm selfish. I need people like you to live and to help me because we here all know that those who are as smart as us are already in power (or not) and the rest of them...

We need a network. We need more brains operating at your capacity, not less. You are too valuable a resource for me to let you go quietly, Auriga.

As far as my response goes so far, I would just like to add that I will make any kind of time to reach out for reals. PM me, we can chat, skype, phone call, whatever.

I just go along for the ride. I'm programmed to believe I'm making decisions (I don't really think I am), and that everyone else is too. Until I can change my programming, I can do nothing but gain what joys I can out of life (or, take what joys life hands to me). Existing is interesting. I'm in no rush to face oblivion, even if ultimately the when/how I get there is meaningless.

...

I just don't think about it. Or I try not to. This is hard, because I think about this shit constantly. At least once a day I stop and think, "This is pointless. I'm basically a robot." Then I shake the thoughts from my head and move on. I use art to express my troubles in this regard.

The only answer is not to think about it. Not until we can change it. 

I for one appreciate experiencing and thinking about the absolute peak moments I have communicating with you lot. It's the most meaningful meaninglessness, if that's the case.

I would also recommend that you give Alan Watts a chance.

Read some Ken Wilbur too. I used to say I'm like 65% Bakker, 35% Wilbur. Actually, if reading material is up for suggestion, I have a number of titles to suggest. Also, watch some Jiddu Krishnamurti, he's an amazing thinker.

I would recommend reading up on chaos and complex systems if you think that we live in a clockwork, predetermined universe.  "Chaos" by James Gleik is an easy read that changed the way I look at the world.  Nothing ever repeats perfectly, so how can we truly be bound to repeat ourselves?  Our behaviours are bifurcating chaotic patterns, they may look similar but differences propagate, multiply and are winnowed. 

Information was also a great read.

Auriga, I value your unique reality-tunnel and I still wish to spend a whole lifetime learning from differences between us.

[Madness]

A fitting passage from the textbook I'm reading (it also talks about precursor term for the depression/intelligence correlation, neurasthenia):

(Writing about William James)

During the dark months of 1869, James began to construct a philosophy of life, compelled not so much by intellectual curiosity as by despair. He read much philosophy, including essays by Charles Renouvier on freedom of the will, which persuaded James of its existence. He decided that his first act of free will would be to believe in free will. Next, he resolved to believe that he could cure himself of his depression by believing in the power of the will. Apparently he succeeded to some extent because in 1872 he accepted a teaching position at Harvard in physiology, commenting that “it is a noble thing for one’s spirits to have some responsible work to do” (James, 1902, p. 167).

[Francis Buck]

Personally I'd much rather live in a bounteous world where we have just randomly wound up with the ability to experience joy, pleasure and fulfilment than some bullshit world where we struggle to understand some great meaning imposed from without.  So what if I can trace my enjoyment of chocolate to some childhood experience and a genetic predisposition and my enjoyment doesn't really matter?  Still better than knowing that bad shit happens because the universe has some ultimate plan or function.

Honestly, you sound somewhat depressed.  That's cool, but you need to avoid dwelling on existential bullshit like this.  Set yourself a challenge, change something about yourself and tell me if the highs and lows you experience on that journey are worthwhile or not. 

Behavioural systems are certainly based on repetition and reinforcement, but rationality and the ability to change your environment are very real ways to change or instill new values within your life.  Psychological development is the process of practicing mental eugenics, embrace your ability to apprehend patterns and apply rational logic in order to direct your development and you can achieve many things, not least of which is learning to value your own existence. 

Sitting about wondering if you are wasting your time and getting morose is a mug's game.  Fuck the cold reality of the universe, it will go on without you.

Even though Curethan and I seem to disagree in regards to free-will (I don't think we have it, or if we do then it's so shriveled and malnourished as to be near useless), but I nonetheless agree with everything said here. Just live life. Most importantly, in my opinion, find someone to live life with. A girlfriend. A best friend. A mentor. Whatever. Find a partner, in the broadest sense of the term, and revel in their existence, so they might revel in yours.

[Francis Buck]

I for one appreciate experiencing and thinking about the absolute peak moments I have communicating with you lot. It's the most meaningful meaninglessness, if that's the case.

Oh, as do I. Hell, I can genuinely say that our discussions are some of my favorite parts of being alive right now. That may sound super weird but it's the truth. And that's why the meaninglessness doesn't matter. Even if it's an illusion, it's an illusion that CANNOT BE ESCAPED. Even enlightenment has its routine.

That's why I said: Just go along with the ride. Pursue interests. Gather knowledge. Create art. Make friends. Do drugs. Have sex. Make love. BE IN LOVE. There's a reason some people think love is the metaphysical core of reality. I certainly don't think that's true in a high-level reality sense, but I think the concept has merit in the human universe. Love is one of the few things that can undercut FEARS of all kind. Fear of death, even, and that's almost always the greatest fear of all. But also the fear of meaninglessness. Love makes you not give a shit about the illusion. And again, I'm not necessarily talking about romantic love. I mean love for the brother and the sister, the other apes we're all in this together with. My love for Madness, for making this forum and so we can all be here talking, and my love for the communications we've had. My love for all of my friends, online or off, however much I may dislike them at certain times. My love for my girlfriend, of course, and the other romantic interests I've had in my lifetime. My love for my parents and family. That feeling is still REAL. Just because it's made up of chemical processes instead of supernatural soul-energy doesn't change a damn thing.

The point, I guess, is this: Who cares if it's an illusion? Why do you read books? Why do you watch movies? It's the EXPERIENCE. That's all we have, and I say we work with it and make life as great as possible for everyone involved. Whether we have a choice in the matter is irrelevant at that point.

It's hard for me to explain, but I believe I may be one of the more optimistic pessimists I've ever met. I'd like to meet more.

[sciborg2]

I'd echo Madness and definitely seek out a therapist or a hotline.

Maybe it's because I spent a long time as a crazy child believing in an indeterministic universe, and have a soft spot for  variations on the Argument from Reason, but I've yet to be totally convinced by anyone's arguments that free will isn't real and apparently John Lucas & the guy who runs Conscious Entities aren't either.


I had a friend who was a depressed determinist who converted to spirituality because of ayahuasca. Now I'm not saying Mother Ayahuasca is a real goddess but the important thing is if you just commit suicide you will never know exactly what that experience was so make attending an ayahuasca church ceremony your goal.

On a less extreme note, check out philosophers like McGinn and Chalmers. Not everyone in philosophy is as convinced about how consciousness actually works. Heck, Chalmers even considers neutral monism and panpsychism as more likely than materialism, and McGinn wonders if mental causality is really the same as physical causality.

It relates to the whole experience thing Francis was talking about, but I guess I'm also saying take a gamble on philosophical conclusions being wrong. Remember until quantum mechanics few people were seriously considering the acausal events of indeterminism.

And speaking of QM, have you heard of Penrose-Hammeroff's Orch-OR? It posits consciousness is the collapse of the wave function and thus would precede the causal, classical universe.

I couldn't help but think it was reaching but there's actually unexpected corroborating evidence.

There's just so much weird stuff out there that suggest we don't know as much as we think we do, whether it's Krippner's weird Grateful Dead telepathy results or just the placebo effect.

Even if ultimately free will is illusory you don't know that now with 100% certainty, and even then some philosophers believe there's a place for meaningful living. I think Madness said on the old boards that the idea of a willful self is worth fighting for [and I'd echo that sentiment].

[sciborg2]

Addendum:

Madness mentioned Krishnamurti, and I made a thread about the guy here.

eta: I should mention Searle, as he posits the physical body creates consciousness but there's still a possibility for free will. Here's a video.

eta: Maybe Searle is supposing a model for the mind like the one described here? Note other quantum consciousness possibilities here & here.

[Royce]

@Royce; if you are going to drop mushies in a depressed state, ensure that you have a trusted buddy that will help you by discussing the issues you are struggling with

Yeah, this is very important indeed.

Some practical advice could also help here. Just get out and run, run til you fall flat on the ground. Exercise can make wonders. Clean your flat, every fucking inch of it. Anything to exhaust your body, and your brain will reward you.

You know that this boils down to a perspective that you have created on your own right? This downward spiral that you have created is obviously not good for you, so why not create something else? Don`t give up until you have at least tried to change your perspective, because it can be done so easily. You have let yourself be convinced by words all your life, why not do that one more time, just to break the spiral and start to flow again.

Again Alan Watts shares your perspective, but with a slightly different approach to the problem. Seek out other sources of information, like Madness suggested.

Depression is of course a complex matter, but often there are just small adjustments that need to be done.

[The Great Scald]

Interesting answers, I'll respond later today when I have the time.

I'll keep up my visits to the psychiatrist, even though I feel they're pointless. Need to buy more antidepressant pills as well. More exercise is probably a good idea, although running didn't help me at all.