[TGO Spoilers] Excerpts, Reviews, Interviews, Oh My!

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Madness

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« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2016, 04:03:51 pm »
I'll just start off with apologies to Aural, MSJ, etc, because I'm writing and there's a lot going on in the house (as I never seem to get the house alone on my day's off) and while that biases my cognition - ironically, as per Bakker's comments below about reviewers - so does this emerging consensual commentary regarding "the split" in TGO/TUC; something that has clearly been perpetuated by myself and Bakker, possibly doing some disservice to this release.

This then isn't necessarily a direct response to your posts in this thread :).

I'd have to find the old interviews and quote them - as I've cited this a number of times over the past two years - but TJE and WLW were both arbitrary splits cutoffs.

Good - I paraphrased wrong but I found the quote and Bakker does a much better job of addressing this strange and interesting bias emerging online towards "the split" than I can.

Pat's Fantasy Hotlist Interview, Jan 2009:

Quote
- THE JUDGING EYE seems to be a notably less standalone work than even the individual novels in the Prince of Nothing, which whilst part of a greater tapestry did seem to have more resolution to each book. Was this a deliberate decision or more of a natural evolution given the story requirements for the sequel series?

When you try to tell a story as big as The Second Apocalypse, you have to go with what local resolutions you can get. This is even more complicated when your story slowly weaves together three narrative lines, as is the case with The Aspect-Emperor. What gives The Darkness that Comes Before a greater sense of closure, I think, is that it concludes with the various narrative lines coming together in the Holy War. Since I have no interest in manufacturing closure simply for the sake of closure, I had to settle for the one point where the development of the three threads of The Judging Eye lined up dramatically...

Then snip.

Meh... if fans were never aware of the split, cognitive closure would have invalidated these - very strange, to me - criticisms of TGO.

Well, this isn't a criticism on my behalf, I've not read it. I guess the split occurred because in finishing TUC the storygrew a bit. But, why would that constitute a split for any other reason than monetary? All I'm saying, is that Bakker intended TUC to be the third and final installment and it would've have been a 900 page behemouth, "Of revelation, stacked upon revelation.". A book that would be that book everyone would point to as Bakker's crowning achievement and set him apart. I think that's more important for Bakker, than it is for us, his fans. I'll buy 60 more books written in this world, if that's what it takes to tell his story. Sure, I'm sure TGO will have me walking around with a banana in my pocket for a few weeks, no doubt. I love everything he writes, pertaining to TSA. I just think it would've been better for his career, is all.

ETA: IMHO, TJE and WLW have felt like the set up books to a great 3rd installment. TTT is the best book of TSA, and isn't even 500 pages. I wholeheartedly agree with Pat, that if it wasn't split it would've been a book on par with GRRRM's A Storm of Swords, in terms of what it did for his career. (i believe TSA is a better story and has better world-building then ASOIAF. Not even close)  Would've been great for Bakker, again that's where my concern lies in this.

First bold: Those are just Pat's impressions being recycled. Who knows what Bakker's intentions were? If we're to predict an author's "crowning achievement," we'll need better tools than the opinions of one reviewer (whom I happen to respect) before the book is released to the public.

Another contextual bit from that interview:

Quote
- Are you satisfied with the way THE JUDGING EYE has been received thus far?

Gauging critical reactions to your work is a tricky thing, primarily because we all–me and you included–regularly confabulate reasons when trying to explain our judgments. It’s a terrifying fact, actually, but the research suggests that we should be exceedingly sceptical of the rationalizations we use to explain our likes and dislikes. We seem to just make things up. So when a reviewer tries to explain why this or that worked or didn’t work for them, chances are they’re just confabulating. (This doesn’t mean that reviewers should give up rationalizing their judgments, only that they should be sceptical of them. Sometimes you hate a book simply because your dog took a dump on the carpet).

So as it stands I’m obviously pleased that so many online reviewers are so enthusiastic about the book, and my own cognitive vanity makes me want to say these are most intelligent and good-looking reviewers to have ever walked a planet so benighted as Earth, but I always remind myself that it’s the readers I’m writing for, and that so long as the series continues its slow growth I’m doing something right.

Second bold: All the fans - those participating in these threads (people who I know to be mostly reasonable individuals), those reading our words anonymously, those participating across a handful of different mediums but sharing an interest in Bakker's writing, and those reading their words anonymously, we determine the success of Bakker's career. What we do with that social leverage is up to us.

...

+1.

Well, I think you and Madness are missing the main crux of my argument. I could care less about ME getting the entire story at once. I'm saying that it would have been better for Bakker as an author. As Madness can attest, the manuscript he read as TUC as a whole, was his best work yet. And, I think it would have been good for him to have kept it whole. That's all I'm saying. Not a complaint that I am not getting to read it all at once. I can wait.

We don't know what would have been better for Bakker as an author. We live this life, this leading edge of circumstance, of life unlived.

I think citing me or Bakker in this matter - especially as evidence that "the split" is a bad thing for Bakker - is probably not wise. You have evidence of one instance above regarding a Kellhus POV where I chose to lie to the fandom for what thought was the good of the fandom - who is to say which of my truths are lies and lies are truths? Me? I'm clearly an unreliable source.

As for Bakker, he's sometimes thoughtless with his own commentary and is mostly unavailable for comment or clarification (though, questions regarding intent in this context are more likely to find answers in the Author Q&A, I'll bet).

Otherwise, Overlook then Orbit clearly have ultimate veto over Bakker. Fan frustrations regarding perceived narrative damage done by a "split" in an unreleased manuscript might find better resolution by putting these questions to the publishers over the author... or me, which I find wildly absurd and thus hilarious. Possibilities for the future abound: rerelease, omnibus editions, etc, etc.

But not if there is no demand...

How can you say that when you havent read it? I assume you havent read TUC, so you can't know if it was a good split or not.

How can you say that when you haven’t read it? I assume that you haven’t read TUC, so you can’t know if it was a good split or not.

The Moderator-Extraordinaire Curethan in the back of my head suggests that I should probably just delete this post but I'm curious. How is this a cause for dissonance, much less frustration? Why does thinking this particular book has been "split" make a difference for you, when Bakker's said many times that TAE is a story itself written as part of an overarching story, as Wilshire detailed above?

Just thoughts.
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Aural

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« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2016, 04:28:34 pm »
You say “if fans were never aware of the split”... but we are aware of it. The difference - for me at least - between this and previous installments is that when Bakker finished TJE he was no where near finishing TWLW, etc. The TUC, however, was entirely written as one book. It was completed and ready to be published. Bakker spent so much time speaking about it as the one book that will finally answer the burning questions. And then it was decided that the book be split into two for whatever reason. This hasn’t happened before.

As for the last post. Well, Wilshire randomly repeated a question I asked so I thought we were playing a game... sorry.

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« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2016, 05:04:58 pm »
I think Wilshire was asking you a legitimate question. If we're touchy about all this, I apologize again.

The TUC, however, was entirely written as one book. It was completed and ready to be published. Bakker spent so much time speaking about it as the one book that will finally answer the burning questions. And then it was decided that the book be split into two for whatever reason. This hasn’t happened before.

Except that you don't know most of that because Bakker's been majorly unclear with his one-off commentary regarding "the split" and then unresponsive to fans regarding further clarification... things that can be addressed during his Reddit AMA or, hopefully, spontaneously, in the Author Q&A subforum?
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Wilshire

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« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2016, 08:52:00 pm »
As for the last post. Well, Wilshire randomly repeated a question I asked so I thought we were playing a game... sorry.
My unclear point is that the question, or evidence raised, is that TUC was split. As Madness brought up, we don't know the nature of the split. We have a lot of people assuming things, and thats it.

We know that the book formerly known at TUC is being published as TGO and TUC. Is that a 'split'? I don't know. As I said, that's just a further modification of the book formerly know as TAE.

Also, who says TUC is finished? AFAIK there are no final manuscript prints that anyone has read, there are now galley prints, no ARCs. I doubt Overlook has seen a complete final draft.

What defines a book as 'finished'? Technically the TGO ARCs are not even finished books. Things can still change.
Something as fluid as a pre-manuscript draft of TUC probably shouldn't be considered finished.
I'm not aware of ever seeing publishing timelines of final-drafts for any of these books. If you have some evidence that the WLW manuscript/final draft/galley/ARC was more or less finished compared to where TUC is right now, I'd love to see it.

By all accounts, TWP was written, start to finish, in 1 year from TDTCB. Does that mean it was finished when TDTCB was out? Probably not. There have been bits and pieces of this story floating around Bakker headspace for decades. Was the story finished before he wrote it? I'd argue that it was. Since the major story was laid out from the start, any arbitrary 'splits' where the binding of one book ends and the binding of the next book starts are... well arbitrary.

Its a story. Unless Overlook is dumping major plot points so that they can fit it into some page-count or whatever, then I don't see how it matters.
Go ahead and rebind PON into an omnibus, and AE too. But just because you, or I, or Pat, or Overlook, would like to see less covers or bigger books, doesn't mean that its more or less correct.

At least to me, the story being finished is the majorly important part. 3 books, or 9, or 10, if all the pieces are there in the end it just doesn't bother me.
Now, if Bakker comes back some day and says "Gee, Overlook really boned me. Ruined my story. Cut out important parts, made me put in other pieces that weren't important" , etc. etc., then I'll be irked.

Otherwise, passing judgement, getting upset about a possible perceived future, just doesn't seem worth the effort. I worry that if 'the internet' spends its time complaining about how 'the story is ruined', then no one will read it, no books will be sold, and then a future where TUC and TSTSNBN even exists to be read will cease to exist. Then I'll be upset, because the story wasn't told.

So, maybe, withholding judgment until we can see the story proper, might be a better path. Which is why, for my part, I rail against the negativity. Sorry if that's upsetting to anyone.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 08:55:53 pm by Wilshire »
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MSJ

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« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2016, 09:20:17 pm »
Well, Wilshire you're definitely a disciple of Bakker, because you love arguing Semantics, lol. Look, I do see your point. I understand things can change. That nothing that Bakker has handed in before is final. But, he stated on his blog, that he handed in the finished manuscript for TUC. That there might be a split due to page count. That nothing about the release was said until his contract was restructured, because it went from 3 books to 4. You guys provided links to all these comments in the TUC thread. Great arguments all around from you and Madness, but you know in your heart that this was a Overlook decision, not Bakker's. That the heart of the story hasn't changed, and won't. Aural and I are not the ones who seem to be getting angry here. I think it a reasonable critic of what would be best for the man's career. It's over with and can't be changed. I'll be happy however I get the story, 4 books or 20, it doesn't matter to me.

ETA: Please do not ignore the bold when quoting me again. It's definitely not about what I want. It was just a thought (RECYCLED THOUGHT) on what I ultimately think would have been best for my favorite author's career.

ETAA: Sorry if you guys think this is negativity on my part. It's not what I intended it to be. I'm extremely happy to be getting what we're getting. Maybe, this will be the best path, I dunno. I just think when the reason we were giving is page count and Overlook is a small publisher aren't good enough.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 10:01:33 pm by MSJ »
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Madness

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« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2016, 10:55:53 pm »
Great arguments all around from you and Madness, but you know in your heart that this was a Overlook decision, not Bakker's.

Not true for myself.

Aural and I are not the ones who seem to be getting angry here. I think it a reasonable critic of what would be best for the man's career. It's over with and can't be changed.

I know Wilshire and I aren't angry - I don't think anyone is being accused of anger here. I'm not actually sure why there should be a sense of discord here. Perhaps Wilshire and I are reacting disproportionate to the conversation at hand but it's clearly important to us to be able to read the rest of the story and that others do so as well.

It is perfectly reasonable to critic what would be best for the man's career - but you and Aural are doing so on the basis of incomplete information; things that could be fleshed out by Bakker in the coming months, hopefully.

I'll be happy however I get the story, 4 books or 20, it doesn't matter to me.

ETA: Please do not ignore the bold when quoting me again. It's definitely not about what I want. It was just a thought (RECYCLED THOUGHT) on what I ultimately think would have been best for my favorite author's career.

ETAA: Sorry if you guys think this is negativity on my part. It's not what I intended it to be. I'm extremely happy to be getting what we're getting. Maybe, this will be the best path, I dunno. I just think when the reason we were giving is page count and Overlook is a small publisher aren't good enough.

Otherwise, passing judgement, getting upset about a possible perceived future, just doesn't seem worth the effort. I worry that if 'the internet' spends its time complaining about how 'the story is ruined', then no one will read it, no books will be sold, and then a future where TUC and TSTSNBN even exists to be read will cease to exist. Then I'll be upset, because the story wasn't told.

So, maybe, withholding judgment until we can see the story proper, might be a better path. Which is why, for my part, I rail against the negativity. Sorry if that's upsetting to anyone.

I responded to someone at r/bakker regarding this earlier today and basically, in classic form, Wilshire says is here in about a third of the words.

Bakker supposedly has a Reddit AMA upcoming and I think it's very likely he's going to jump onto the Author Q&A in the near future (at a time when maybe there aren't so many reviews, excerpts, and interviews already forthcoming). The kinds of questions that you and Aural are asking are the kind that Bakker should be asked before we throw around blame and motive at Bakker, the publishers, and all the schemers in between.
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Madness

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« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2016, 11:08:41 pm »
GdM confirms excerpt is going live "soon." They are on Australia-time. It is already the 16th there 8).
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MSJ

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« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2016, 11:30:20 pm »
This from Pat, @Westeros

Quote
Guys,

Overlook and Orbit have been sitting on a manuscript whose last rewrite was turned in in December 2013. By the time TGO comes out, that will be about 2 and a half years.

Is this accurate info? I guess I am going on incomplete information. I can't possibly know all the intricate details of the publishing world. I'm just going off of blog posts and such from Bakker, links provided for us here.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

themerchant

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« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2016, 11:37:29 pm »
Bakker missed a deadline originally (i think) then turned it in 2013 the end of it.

So it will be about 2 1/2 years from december 21013 till release.

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« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2016, 11:50:49 pm »
This from Pat, @Westeros

Quote
Guys,

Overlook and Orbit have been sitting on a manuscript whose last rewrite was turned in in December 2013. By the time TGO comes out, that will be about 2 and a half years.

Is this accurate info? I guess I am going on incomplete information. I can't possibly know all the intricate details of the publishing world. I'm just going off of blog posts and such from Bakker, links provided for us here.

Lol - and we're just providing the information because it's all there is, not because it is completely accurate. Bakker is just a person, certainly not a publicist, and things that he says online are remarkably inconsistent and misinterpreted compared to hearing it clarified by the man himself.

I suppose Pat means Dec 2014?
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MSJ

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« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2016, 11:57:20 pm »
Hey, this is the only info we have to go off of though, right? Anyhow, I didn't mean to stir the pot, sorry for doing so. My critic wasn't one to put down RSB. I just agreed with Pat that I think it couldve, would've been an excellent novel in its entirety. I'm sure TGO is great on its own and I'm excited for it. It was more of a "what could've been" type of thing. Sorry, don't mean to be a Debbie Downer.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Madness

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« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2016, 12:05:46 am »
Hey, this is the only info we have to go off of though, right? Anyhow, I didn't mean to stir the pot, sorry for doing so. My critic wasn't one to put down RSB. I just agreed with Pat that I think it couldve, would've been an excellent novel in its entirety. I'm sure TGO is great on its own and I'm excited for it. It was more of a "what could've been" type of thing. Sorry, don't mean to be a Debbie Downer.

I'll make this conversation make sense in the future, MSJ, if Bakker hasn't clarified before then :).

Also, check your PMs, I need you for this WLW Reread Cast or the Cast series might remain unfinished.
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Aural

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« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2016, 12:06:44 am »
I suppose Pat means Dec 2014?

Bakker finished the first draft of TUC in Dec 2013... That’s the confusion I guess. He handed the finished manuscript to Overlook in March 2014 according to Wertzone.

http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2014/03/r-scott-bakker-delivers-unholy-consult.html

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« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2016, 02:29:14 am »
I'll make this conversation make sense in the future, MSJ, if Bakker hasn't clarified before then :).

Also, check your PMs, I need you for this WLW Reread Cast or the Cast series might remain unfinished.

Sent you guys a PM. Ahhh, so there is more than meets the eye. Ok, fair enough.
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« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2016, 10:16:40 am »
Adrian of GDM just tweeted it’s almost time to set eyes on the first 10K words of TGO. Almost time... so a few weeks.