If having the wrong faith gets you damned - why no mark?

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« on: June 03, 2013, 03:35:28 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
On the tin.

In an interview Scott suggests people with the wrong faith/whole nations will be damned.

But if so, why no mark?

So why is a sorcerers mark - the blood of the onta - different to, say, the Captain and how he looks under the judging eye (keep in mind Akka looks crispy fried under the JE as well)?

What if, rather like blood spilt, it's an unintentional effect?

Then again I've forgotten the Kellhus given explanations of magic, so I might have forgotten stuff. Rereading TWP now.

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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2013, 03:35:34 pm »
Quote from: bbaztek
My understanding was the mark was a bruise on the fabric of reality - a burn or scrape on the onta - caused by sorcery. The average joe believing in the wrong God wouldn't affect the onta. Sorcery is essentially wielding a limited range of the God's original power without the God's original intent - wielding the act of creation as a weapon. Practitioners of the Psukhe don't have a mark because they speak with the God's passion. No matter what they choose to do with it, their sorcery will always be spoken with the same beauty and earnestness as God's original act of Creation.

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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2013, 03:35:42 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Or more to the point the god can't discern the difference between Psukhe and it's own emotions, much like a cant of compulsion victim does not feel any compulsion. Cue an entry for Kellhus, etc...

But on topic, what's the thought then - with the mark that sorcerers see, vs the mark mimara sees - are they same thing seen?

Or does the mark not matter?

What if the sorcerer mark just doesn't matter, in terms of the damnation machines eternal torture? Well, apart from giving you vulnerability to chorae?

I know Mimara looked at Akka and saw the damnation machines ink upon him, but what if it's for other things? The homosexual relationship he had in college comes to mind as one thing (I mean seriously, how enlightened is the Earwa damnation machine gunna be about that?)

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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2013, 03:35:48 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I wish I had my copies of TJE, Callan, but you've highlighted it yourself - there is a moment in TJE where Mimara sees Achamian with both the Judging Eye and as one of the Few and there are marked differences between the two.

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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2013, 03:38:07 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Is there?? I've started rereading the series because of the reread threads here - but I want to go sequential, so I can't just skip to TJE!

Looking forward to reading that bit again!

It's a wacky old world, is Earwa! It's be more of an academic appreciation of complexity, if the stakes weren't so dread!

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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2013, 03:38:15 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Dread stakes.... hmm... dread steaks ;).

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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2013, 03:38:21 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
my simplistic view of the situation of your original question:

3 men, A, B and C.
Man C has a knife.

Man B rather dislikes man A, and believes that if he stabs him to death the world will be a better place.
Man C same situation, but stabs the fucker DED.

Man A probably not marked, man C certainly marked.


Simply believing wrongly is too wishy-washy to deserve some kind of metaphysical mark. Its the wielder of the knife that is worth marking.

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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2013, 03:38:27 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Wilshire, but the guy with the knife doesn't get a mark like a sorcerer has a mark? Another sorcerer wouldn't be able to see he'd stabbed anyone (though Mimara would be able to, presumably, since the CCTV of Earwa is that good...)

Quote from: Madness
Dread stakes.... hmm... dread steaks ;).
They are the law! ... of good eatin'!

Wow, I could have been in advertising!

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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2013, 03:38:34 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
Different things, imo.  The mark of damnation represents judgement, mark of sorcery is some kind of stain.

Whole nations might be damned, but Mimara's perspective reveals that redemption is for available for individuals - at least those who haven't used sorcery.  (Can't see why she wouldn't share her insight with Akka otherwise...)

Does anyone else feel like she uses the chorae to absolve the lich king in TJE?  And following that, in WLW she gains a deeper understanding of the mechanics of damnation.

We know that chorae cancel sorcery, effectively returning the onta to 'god's intended state of meaning', as it were.

The mark on the onta is described as childish scribbling or graffiti over reality.  If a schoolman put a glamour on you, you would bear the mark but it would leave when the glamour was dispelled.  And a chorae would presumably disrupt the cant but leave you unsalted.

Could it be that, by weilding sorcery, schoolmen change or remove themselves from god's reality?  In effect, they seperate themselves from god - and all chance of redemption.
When a chorae removes the sorcery the onta can't 'remember' what they were supposed to be like before, so they turn into salt?  Even though the Cish bear no visible mark, they get switched off by chorae as well.

eta. this could explain why the hundred can't see the big bad.  Maybe they can't percieve sorcery at all.  Except Ajokli.  Which lends creedence to my Ajokli = demonic Seswatha crackpot.

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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2013, 03:38:41 pm »
Quote from: Galbrod
I agree with Bbaztek. In addition, I've understood that Bakker borrows ideas and concepts from Tolkien, and then plays with them (nonmen vs elves, Moria vs Cil-Aujas etc...). One of the differences between Tolkien's Elves and Men are that the former and bound by Fate ('the Music'), while the latter have free will in the sense that they are empowered to act beyond Fate/the Music. In the Bakkerian setting, I've seen the acts by the White Luck Warrior (with his glimpses into future developments) as something resembling the grand plan of 'the Music' of the Tolkien setting. But rather than giving Men free will (as is done in the Tolkien setting), I've got the sense that all souled creatures of Earwa are bound to 'the Music' of the divine entity/entities within Earwa up to the point that they take up sorcery (excepting the Cishaurim, who continue to act in accordance with 'the music'). Separating oneself from the plan enables acts outside of 'the Music', but result in damnation for the practitioner.

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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2013, 03:38:49 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
If the Psukhe is so pure, then why do chorae kill Cish?  They don't affect other non-marked people.
Note that Tirtiga had that weird mark too.

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« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2013, 03:39:00 pm »
Quote from: Galbrod
Well, we know that sorcerens (excluding Cish) are damned, and that chorae kills sorcerers (including Cish)... Would not the rational conclusion be that the effect of chorae are related to the workings of sorcery (whether damed or not), rather than being related to damnation?

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« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2013, 03:39:06 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
agreed with Glabrod.
Chorae created from Aporos is a anti-sorcery mechanism, not a damnation machine.

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« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2013, 03:39:13 pm »
Quote from: Curethan
The point was, that if the Psukhe cannot be distinguished from God's 'music', then why would chorae affect it at all?  They don't affect normal people, right?
Mimara's use of her chorae against the wight was anti-damnation, not anti-sorcery.
The use of chorae in Tsuramh's carapace indicates that the can be included in sorcererous constructions without canceling them - don't forget they are made using sorcery.

Some logic.
1. Sorcery leaves a mark.
2. Weilding sorcery causes damnation.
3. Only those who can weild sorcery can see the mark.
4. Sorcery sub-type (Psukhe) leaves no mark.
5. Those with no mark may also be damned.
6. Non-damned objects or people may carry the mark if sorcery is used on them.

Conclusions;
-the Mark does not indicate damnation (from 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6) 
-weilders of the Psukhe are likely damned (from 2, 4 and 5).

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« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2013, 03:39:25 pm »
Quote from: Triskele
Quote from: Curethan
Some logic.
1. Sorcery leaves a mark.
2. Weilding sorcery causes damnation.
3. Only those who can weild sorcery can see the mark.
4. Sorcery sub-type (Psukhe) leaves no mark.
5. Those with no mark may also be damned.
6. Non-damned objects or people may carry the mark if sorcery is used on them.

Conclusions;
-the Mark does not indicate damnation (from 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6) 
-weilders of the Psukhe are likely damned (from 2, 4 and 5).

 I don't know that we can say "likely."  We don't know enough about the aporos.  The Cishaurim's "sorcery" is called such because others don't have a better word for it.  But at least by some interpretations the other sorcerers are defacing the God's work/voice while the Cishaurim are channeling it.