[Madness]

Hey everyone, I moved the missing comments to Sorcery in Misc. Chatter. Also, combined the Sorcery thread from The White-Luck Warrior. There's still a couple errant threads around.

Otherwise, try and stay on the topic of the thread. That's why there's an entire forum here. Search function also works fairly well.

Indeed. That's why I don't for a second think Kellhus is truly mad, but only (ironically) by Dunyain standards. The only person that considers him mad is Moe, and he couldn't grasp the TTT. Kellhus did. I feel like this may end up being one of the bigger connections to Dune in the series. Moenghus (Paul Muad'dib), the father of the God-Emperor Kellhus (Leto), and instigator of the Shortest Path (Golden Path), started a plan he thought would work, but he didn't have the balls to really go through with it. Kellhus (Leto) does. Years later, Moe (the Preacher, sun burnt and disguised, conveniently vague about his past) is returning to oppose his son, not realizing that Kellhus (Leto) is actually doing something far greater than he had ever imagined. What that is exactly, I do not know. But overall, I think that's a serious possibility about where the story is headed.

Lol - +1.

On westeros at some point we were going through a lot of the things that Moenghus had orchestrated throughout the plot.  I got all excited thinking that on top of everything, he'd orchestrated the assassination of Sasheoka in order to goad the SS into joining the Holy War.  It made sense since Moenghus had done so much else to orchestrate it.  And it was plausible that Moe would need the SS to get involved as it was suggested that the Holy War might not march unless they had the SS despite their misgivings about Schools because they couldn't imagine defeating the Cishaurim otherwise.

Another line of commentary that may have to be moved for pertinence. But it hasn't yet grown as unruly as the sorcery commentary (which was good, if misplaced .

I don't think Moenghus cared whether Kellhus learned from the Scarlet Spires or the Imperial Saik, Trisk. Certainly, not enough to orchestrate the assassination for that reason. All that mattered was that a School was present to give Kellhus sorcery.

If Moe really didn't plan it, it seemed like it still very much worked out in his favor.

+1 - Blessed correspondence of cause.

The reason I bring all of that up is just to circle back to what the Cish did or did not do when they assassinated Sasheoka.  The description is pretty badass as if a door of light opened up out of nowhere with three hellish silhouettes within.  I want to believe it's some teleportation that Moe designed.  Is there any way to know? 

If it wasn't Moe in any way, we're left to wonder what exactly the Cish pulled off and what they're capable of. 

If Moe was involved, might we not wonder then if Moe had more facility with Water all along?

I think, Moenghus being able to teach others and enhance Psukhari is a given, as others have echoed.

A fortuitous correspondence of cause if ever there was one.  But then, certain instances worked out in Kel's favor, too (the whole 'punish the Shrial Knights' thing, for instance).  Almost like the world conspired to make things happen.  But I digress.  There are a few things that make me think it was still Moe behind the assassination.

Kellhus accomplishes much less on his own unless he starts recognizing metaphysical opportunities around him.

I wondered about this passage for a long time.  It seemed strange to add that Kel accidentally kicked something in the dark while speaking to Moe, right at that moment.  He could have kicked something in the dark at any time.  Why then?  Was this a literary red flag, like he took a misstep in his assumptions?  I don't know, but it still nags me.

lockesnow's all over this one, if I recall - the consensus seemed red flag.

It does make sense that Kellhus' limitation are closely tied to Moenghus', which is probably why these topics tend towards the same thing every time they are brought up. How much of Kell's accomplishments were set up by Daddy? None of them, all of them, or somewhere in between.

I believe that Moenghus never was able to see past the Circumfixtion. Based on that assumption, most (if not all) of TAE trillogy is Kellhus' work. However, sense there is no consensus on the matter, its difficult to continue.

Somewhere in between.

And, I believe that Moenghus did see past the Circumfixtion and Kellhus is unable to sense a falsity.

Does he have other sons? We don't know and it may be, but have we seen any proof of it? I mean with Maitha we could at least wonder if he wasn't half-Dûnyain thanks to his descriptions. It would be silly if in the UC a charachter popped up as another son of Moe without having been shown at all before. (I'm not saying it's impossible just that it would seem weird to me)

Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children

To wrap it up I don't think Moe has anything else to show us. Sure maybe we'll get some answers about minor details regarding him but I would be extremely surprises ( and disappointed ) if it turned out that he still was the mastermind after his death.

I believe in Moenghus.

I don't have the books in front of me, but I was always under the assumption that the Consult were behind the assassination, as part of their desire to eliminate the Cish (IIRC, they were concerned about their inability to place skin-spies in Shimeh which they incorrectly was related to the power of the Cish).
I havent read the first trilogy in a few years, so forgive me if I am forgetting something obvious to disprove my assumption here. 

As another option: We know at least one skin spy had a soul and was able to use sorcery... maybe there was another that was disguised as a Scarlet Spires and aided in the assassination somehow?  Major stretch, I know, but maybe it leads someone with a better mind at crackpot theories down a better path...

Allegedly, the Cishaurim uncover the Skin-Spies but blame the Scarlet Spires, instead of the Consult.

-why bring back just one Cishaurim?  What could that mean?

-why have amnesia be part of said Cishaurim's personna?

-does said Cish actually have amnesia?

-does Fanayal know who Meppa is even if Meppa does not?

-does Malo's observation on the "beauty" of the "work without the mark" mean anything about how it compares to the ugly bruise of other sorcery?

-did the hints at the end of TTT that the Cish were stronger than anyone realized mean anything about how strong Meppa is?  Does amnesia potentially help Meppa recall the God's voice even better?  Kellhus said to Akka in TTT that whether the Cish know it or not, their blinding helps them better recall.  Would amnesia help even more?

-If Meppa isn't Moe, is he Moe's experiment or plan B somehow?

-Another fun observation is that it seems that the Cish are impacted differently by Chorae than other sorcerers...everyone else salts...they same to burn away like a tissue was set alight.  I don't know what that means, but it seems like a potential clue to...something.

Hmm... I'm responding to these posts and I really think I should just parse and move them. What does everyone think? Trisk and I can go on and on about Cishaurim and this has nothing to do with Kellhus' limits at this point.

Maybe he thought " yeah the Incandati were kicking my ass but in a few weeks of study I would have oneshotted them from the sky with my MG"
And gave up on obtaining the Psukhe.

+1, which might be equally wrong for him to do.

Also the level of power he gains manipulation of the Gnosis into Meta-Gnosis is theoretically unlimited. ( Meaning that we haven't seen anything specific yet but we can safely assume he's ridiculously powerful ). Maybe he thought " yeah the Incandati were kicking my ass but in a few weeks of study I would have oneshotted them from the sky with my MG"
And gave up on obtaining the Psukhe.

Makes sense. From what we know it is reasonable to conclude that he knows that his Psûkhe-fu will be weak, due to his stunted emotional life.

Maybe he's trying to grow feelings...

But perhaps my memory is playing games on me and she actually said something about Kellhus' mark...

Lol, maybe that is the magic question, DN. We're all so caught up in the moral argument of the Judging Eye but what if Kellhus doesn't Mark the onta in the same way as other sorcerers? Though... you'd assume there would be an uproar, unless everyone is too awed to ask questions.

Side Questions:  Is it ever said either way if Aporetic sorcerers can make cants and such or is it strictly an artificer type of magic? 

Aporetic Sorcery

I think consensus is artificer sorcery.

[Garet Jax]

Side Questions:  Is it ever said either way if Aporetic sorcerers can make cants and such or is it strictly an artificer type of magic? 

Aporetic Sorcery

I think consensus is artificer sorcery.
[/quote]

Damn it.  I has some nice hot sauce induced fantasies about crazy Aporetic Quya fucking up meta gnostic sorcerers (and pretty much everyone else) with some unheard of war cants...  Oh well, maybe FB can put it in his fan fic 

[Cüréthañ]

Hey everyone, I moved the missing comments to Sorcery in Misc. Chatter. Also, combined the Sorcery thread from The White-Luck Warrior. There's still a couple errant threads around.

Otherwise, try and stay on the topic of the thread. That's why there's an entire forum here. Search function also works fairly well.

To be fair, I was covering my hypotheses on sorcery in order to provide fodder for how Khellus might apply changes to extend his limits.
But who really reads my half page rambles anyway?

[Callan S.]

If however, he can ascend to be the next No God or the Solitary God, I think at that point he would truly have no limits.

How do you ascend to a role that has no limits? Surely it suggests there being a way of taking such a role - thus suggests a limit?

[Somnambulist]

Hey everyone, I moved the missing comments to Sorcery in Misc. Chatter. Also, combined the Sorcery thread from The White-Luck Warrior. There's still a couple errant threads around.

Otherwise, try and stay on the topic of the thread. That's why there's an entire forum here. Search function also works fairly well.

To be fair, I was covering my hypotheses on sorcery in order to provide fodder for how Khellus might apply changes to extend his limits.
But who really reads my half page rambles anyway?

I did!  Great discourse on sorcery.  Thoroughly enjoyed it.

[Cüréthañ]

Ha, thanks Som.  Woke up with the flu and I'm all sick and whiny now. 
I know I tend to simply speed read over long posts.

[Wilshire]

Som - We've definitely explored the Cish on the other board. 

It would be more useful to just link to the board you're referring too.

Just speaking for myself, but it can be pretty damn hard to find specific things in those Westeros threads. They're big, often move relatively fast, and there's a new one probably every month or so (and they've been going for years). On top of that, the Cish discussions are spread fairly wide (and randomly) across the threads. I'm not sure if there's a search function for threads themselves though, that might help.

Unimportant tangent about the westeros forum:

(click to show/hide)

Oh I didn't realize that he was referring to the ... other ... bored . I think its great that there is tons of content over there, but try not to discourage posters here because its been discussed "somewhere" over there. If those involved in discussing those topics cant even find them, there is no hope for someone from the outside to find those thoughts

It is kind of the point of having a dedicated forum to Bakker. There are lots of topics that can be searched here, and we have a  moderator who does a great job at organizing disparate thoughts and tangents into cohesive topics.

But thats just me whining, feel free to ignore.

[locke]

If however, he can ascend to be the next No God or the Solitary God, I think at that point he would truly have no limits.

How do you ascend to a role that has no limits? Surely it suggests there being a way of taking such a role - thus suggests a limit?

Basic calculus equation, gnosis should be all over that, relatively simple.

[locke]

"So the Cishaurim assassinated the Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires, prompting a war that will find its conclusion this very day..."
Just then, Kellhus inadvertently kicked something lying upon the graven floor.  Something hollow and fibrous.  A skull?"

I wondered about this passage for a long time.  It seemed strange to add that Kel accidentally kicked something in the dark while speaking to Moe, right at that moment.  He could have kicked something in the dark at any time.  Why then?  Was this a literary red flag, like he took a misstep in his assumptions?  I don't know, but it still nags me.

this is most assuredly a literary red flag.  You might even find it overly blatant/symbolic, it's tremendously obvious.  Literally: Kellhus mis-steps.  That is to say, Kellhus made a mistake.

I think, therefore, we can take Kellhus' monologuing like a Bond villain after he makes a misstep is more or less incorrect, if you assume a domino effect of each of his incorrect assumptions leading him to greater and greater incorrect assumptions.

But we should include the paragraph that triggers Kellhus' misstep, this is the assumption series that causes the misstep and everything that comes after has been wrongly determined by Kellhus:

Fully:

“But you were Dûnyain, and though our brothers know nothing of the arcane, our understanding of the mundane is without peer. You realized that these things weren’t sorcerous artifacts, that they were engines of the flesh. But you couldn’t convince the others, who sought to instruct the Scarlet Spires on the perilous course they had taken. There must be consequences. So the Cishaurim assassinated the Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires, prompting a war that will find its conclusion this very day …”

Just then, Kellhus inadvertently kicked something lying upon the graven floor. Something hollow and fibrous. A skull?

“But you,” he continued without hesitation, “kept the creatures, and over years of torment you eventually broke them down. You learned of Golgotterath, her ramparts heaped about the horns of an ancient derelict, a vessel fallen from the void in the days when Nonmen yet ruled Eärwa; of the Inchoroi and the great war they waged against long-dead Nonmen Kings. You learned how the last survivors of that fell race, Aurang and Aurax, perverted the heart of their Nonman captor, Mekeritrig, and how he corrupted Shauriatis, the Grandmaster of the Mangaecca, in his turn. You learned how this wicked cabal broke the glamour about Golgotterath, and made its horrors their own …

“You learned of the Consult.”

“These words you speak,” Moënghus said from the black, “‘wicked,’ ‘corrupted,’ ‘perverted’ … why would you use them when you know they are nothing more than mechanisms of control?”

Just in case the reader completely missed the literal, blatant authorial screaming that Kellhus missteped, he has Moenghus remind us that Kellhus is enslaved by his biases and perspective.

So, Kellhus is utterly wrong that Moenghus could not convince the Cishaurim of the origin of the Skin Spies.

And in focusing on the Consult in this binary manner, Kellhus is wrong, oh so very wrong. 

Moenghus follows up his warning with Kellhus with an attempt to control him, he will flatter Kellhus and agree with Kellhus.  Stoke his ego!

“The Second Apocalypse,” Moënghus said simply.

“Only you knew their secret. Only you could detect their spies.”

“They have to be stopped,” Moënghus replied. “Destroyed.”

Interesting that Moenghus did a massive shift from, "don't judge the Consult with your world-born tainted biases," to agreeing with the perspective he just condemned.  Utterly classic dunyain manipulation process.

Also interesting is that preceding the tripping on the skull is this:  Moenghus explains his entire journey to Kellhus up to the Thousandfold Thought.  Then Kellhus trips on the skull, levels mega accusations against the Consult, and then begins the story again now with constant imprecations against the Consult.  Kellhus starts all over and begins telling the story from how he perceives it, Kellhus even ends his story of Moenghus' journey in basically the same place, the Thousandfold Thought.

Kellhus, after the skull, literally rewrites his perceptions and insights and discounts what he has just heard so that he can flatter himself and his own interpretation of events.  Total Cognitive Failure.

[Wilshire]

“The Second Apocalypse,” Moënghus said simply.

“Only you knew their secret. Only you could detect their spies.”

“They have to be stopped,” Moënghus replied. “Destroyed.”

Interesting that Moenghus did a massive shift from, "don't judge the Consult with your world-born tainted biases," to agreeing with the perspective he just condemned.  Utterly classic dunyain manipulation process.

Was the dramatic shift in that quoted text? Because I don't see it.

From what I read, Moe went from basically agreeing with what Kellhus said with the slight confusion of "why use those adjectives", to more agreeing an no cometary about adjectives. Doesn't seem that dramatic  .

[locke]

ah, I see you are one of the conditioned...

[Wilshire]

ah, I see you are one of the conditioned...

Help me see. I don't want to be deceived any more.

[Garet Jax]

If however, he can ascend to be the next No God or the Solitary God, I think at that point he would truly have no limits.

How do you ascend to a role that has no limits? Surely it suggests there being a way of taking such a role - thus suggests a limit?

Good point.  I don't think he would be taking said role from anyone or anything, merely creating a new role.

I know there are some holes in the theory, but I just can't bring myself to give it up.

[Wilshire]

Becoming a god-like figure of infinite power, to me, doesn't suggest limitations, but rather that 'godishness' is a floor not a ceiling. Its relative as well. Someone on the ground looking up may see a god, but a god looking up may still see a god above him.

[Ishammael]

"So the Cishaurim assassinated the Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires, prompting a war that will find its conclusion this very day..."
Just then, Kellhus inadvertently kicked something lying upon the graven floor.  Something hollow and fibrous.  A skull?"

I wondered about this passage for a long time.  It seemed strange to add that Kel accidentally kicked something in the dark while speaking to Moe, right at that moment.  He could have kicked something in the dark at any time.  Why then?  Was this a literary red flag, like he took a misstep in his assumptions?  I don't know, but it still nags me.

So this is my first time trying to include quotes from other posts.  Hopefully I didn't butcher it.
So, this is what I was talking abuot in my ealier post up-thread.
I don't think we have actual evidence, other than this exchange, that proves the Cish were actually behind the assassination.
I think that Kell was wrong, and that the Consult were behind it.  The Consult knew their spies were being captured, assumed the Cish were behind it, and then framed them via the assasination.
For all we know, there are other surviving relics of the Aporos that may work similar to the "Gateway Cubes" from Wheel of Time, which a Skin-Spy smuggeled in and was able to trigger.  Yes, there should have been a Mark or some other evidence, but we don't really know how the Aporos works, and for all we know some other unknown sorcery was used.
Tangent - any thoughts on the possibility of the Consult tapping the Water in some "non-holy" way, and using THAT for the assassination?

Anyway, I don't think it is ever confirmed in the text without a doubt that the Cish were behind the killing.  The Consult would be the obvious alternative.  In hindsight, that means it wasn't The Consult...  maybe it was Moe?