The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: What Came Before on May 15, 2013, 12:56:27 am
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How powerful is the wizard? In TDTCB I know he is acting as a field agent, but I felt we were given the impression that it was not a lowly position, that he was tasked with the deepest and dangerous of missions. In later books he refers to himself as a Warcant Master, lays it down at the Saerotic (I'm sure you guys will correct me) Library and then in TTT fends of some Ciphrang for a while. And finally, in the AE trilogy, while obviously outmatched by Nil'Giccas, he definitely holds his own in Cil'Aujas and certainly is contributive to defending against Wutteat.
Am I to infer that the Gnosis is just that badass? What's the internal structure of the Mandate? What is a Warcant Master's position in their hierarchy?
Side question: Would it be outside his abilities, after learning that it is possible, to have grasped the MetaGnosis (the use of a second inutterable, correct me if I'm misusing meta-) without Kellhus tutelage?
More tenuously related side questions: Do the Quya possess the MetaGnosis? Does the use of a second inutterable, creating a more precise and profound transformation of reality, result in a deeper Mark? For all the more power described in a second inutterable is their an equivalent bruising of the wielder's Mark?
My questions kind of got away from me there once I got going..
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Akka, coming from the area around the Mandate's stronghold, is possibly descended from a Seswatha bastard. :-p
more seriously--because everyone hates the secret heir cliche--Akka is probably quite powerful. He knows he's good, he knows he's smart, he knows the Mandate leadership do not like keeping him around home base. They know he's good and smart they want to use him, but don't want him to be a threat to their authority, nor do they want him to displace them, they probably do not mind his ascending to a high position of advisement when someone dies and he's old enough to 'retire' from the field, but for the time period of TDTCB they don't want him around.
Alternatively, Akka is something of a persona non-grata to the Mandate at the time of TDTCB. This could be because of what happened with Proyas. The education of a prince of Proyas' stature would be enormously important to the Mandate. That Akka was tasked with Proyas shows what a High regard he was held in, even at a young age, to be the instructor of the prince. That Akka lost the Proyas contract could explain why he's sort of kept at a distance.
There is a crackpot out there that the reason Akka and Proyas fell out was Akka seduced or molested Proyas, and Proyas went religious and his family dropped their association with the Mandate because of Akka's actions.
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*sigh* Akka and his fumbling hands..
I recall Bakker mentioning that he feels that good sorcery is approached systematically, otherwise it just seems a plot device. Personally I agree, and I find the sorcery of TSA to be refreshing and interesting in its style.
I guess I'm looking for a map of the Schools that has no doubt been aging in one of Bakker's desk drawers for decades
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There's a bit in TDTCB where Akka is reflecting on his position in the mandate hierachy and it incidently mentions that he is powerful even for a mandati, but that his attitudes and opinions keep him from rising throught the ranks.
Other than that, I would suggest his power levels are clearly somewhat in excess of 9000. (Someone had to say it) -.-
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There's a bit in TDTCB where Akka is reflecting on his position in the mandate hierachy and it incidently mentions that he is powerful even for a mandati, but that his attitudes and opinions keep him from rising throught the ranks.
Other than that, I would suggest his power levels are clearly somewhat in excess of 9000. (Someone had to say it) -.-
Akka is not a good perspective on this. We have to assume his view of himself is ridiculously flattering. Of course he would think he is the misunderstood one. It's much easier to think that he is just above the other mandati in his beliefs than to remember that the relationship with Proyas went sour and soured the Mandate on him.
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I remember it as a narrative perspective rather than Akka ruminating. I'll see if I can find the passage when I unpack that box of books, mate.
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Firstly, I'd think that anyone who dreams Seswatha's Dreams, is approximately as good as Seswatha was - though I would argue that many of the changes in Achamian's Dreams reflect the fact that his life begins to most resemble Seswatha's of all the Mandate.
Secondly, even if Achamian was the best Gnostic sorcerer in the world, which he's likely not, he'd still be unable to contend with Quya or the Metagnosis.
The Old Wizard is lucky he's Fate's bitch, I'd say.
@ Camlost, I figure that the Metagnosis represents a truly novel innovation to Sorcery. I mean, at the time of the tutelage - yesterday for Nonmen basically - the Second Innuteral was a myth, according to Achamian's perspective. I'm sure Achamian could learn it though. He's clearly one of the smarter people in Earwa - unless, of course, we find out that all Metagnostic sorcerers are, in fact, Dunyain.
Now that's not factoring that in Earwa the Consult have Erratic Quya, likely including Aporetic Mages, the Undead Mengaecca, and the Inchoroi, while Ishterebinth has the remaining Intact and Erratic, who don't roam the continent. Between those two groups of unknowns, we're sure to see more novel advancements in Sorcery.
I mean, why would Bakker simply repeat the original play of powers from the First Apocalypse? Clearly, the Second Apocalypse is set to be a whole 'nother level.
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over 9000
obv
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Akka at least was already aware of legends of some kind of Nonman Witch-King that could perform a second inutterable. The Nonmen have already discovered the meta-gnosis. it's just apparently beyond the skill of most sorcerers, even Quya.
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"The 'Third Phrase' was a thing of myth in Gnostic sorcery, a story handed down to Men during the Nonman Tutelage: the legend of Su'juroit, the great Cunoroi Witch-King." (p139, TTT LE)
I really think this conversation of the Metagnosis and who can wield it actually boils down to whether or not all Metagnostic sorcerers are, in fact, Dunyain.
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IIRC, in the DTCB Akka said that the Gnosis is Quya refined and improved for 2 thousand years, so i'd assume that he is more powerful than most Quya Mages except for some big Isroi names like Cleric. I would even go as far as to argue that Cleric seems so much more formidable simply because he combines his Magical expertise with his physical and martial prowess. What's weird is that Akka muses in the JE that he cares nothing for the Gnosis, so how did he become so good at wielding it?
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Practice helps too. Cants that are a great mental strain on a Mandati are mere reflex for a living Quya mage. Even if they weren't tremendously more powerful, they could probably outlast any human sorcerer.
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Not sure how spoilers are on this thread in particular, so WLW spoiler I suppose:
It seems no one has mentioned a certain someone's daughter. When she and her little band are skipping like a stone across the wilderness, its mentioned that the metagnosis is so taxing that she can only do it twice a day. So I think if akka tried to use it, he might simply die due to too much strain. He's not know for his fortitude after all.
It almost certainly has to be done by a Dunyain or a Quya based on that observation.
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Wilshire, the Misc. Chatter has become a wild west for Earwa spoilers. Something I try to mediate for new members in the updated subforum description.
So anything goes here for now. Else wise, spoiler tags if you refer to anything which happens in a later novel than the one you are posting in - for example, commenting on knowledge from WLW in TTT subforum.
Cheers.
Perhaps, Achamian couldn't manage it. To be honest though, he's continually surprising me. I had originally thought he'd be to old to hang in TAE before TJE came out.
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Not sure how spoilers are on this thread in particular, so WLW spoiler I suppose:
It seems no one has mentioned a certain someone's daughter. When she and her little band are skipping like a stone across the wilderness, its mentioned that the metagnosis is so taxing that she can only do it twice a day. So I think if akka tried to use it, he might simply die due to too much strain. He's not know for his fortitude after all.
It almost certainly has to be done by a Dunyain or a Quya based on that observation.
We don't know how trustworthy the 'exhaustion' is. it would be trivial for Kellhus to whelm Serwa with a post hypotnic suggestion that crippled her with exhaustion whenever she performed one of his metagnostic cants. Since his children will be big threats to him, this seems a prudent course of action.
Or it could be a plot. why? Many possible reasons that are perfectly good on their own or in combination: Kellhus doesn't want Serwa there too soon, Kellhus wants Serwa to be pregnant when she gets to Ishterebinth, and/or Kellhus and Serwa and Moe want Sorweel to think that the metagnosis is a weakness that can be exploited, so the Anasurimbor are sowing false information with Ishterebinth, by first revealing it 'in secret' to Sorweel. Remember, they think of Sorweel as an enemy, not as someone who shares their goals or believes in the Ordeal. Sorweel thinks they trust him because Yatwer hid his face, but Serwa blatently tells him that they think of him as an enemy.
Likewise, he shows Esme his exhaustion because he knows the info will get out and people will perceive it as a weakness they can exploit only to be surprised when he isn't (and hell a few hundred cants skipping across the horizon does sound exhausting, sort of like trying to do a few hundred pull ups in a row).
We get a lot of teleportations and no hint of exhaustion in the battle of Shimeh, if anything it should be more pronounced there since it is a new thing to him at the time.
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That is a bit more assuming that I am comfortable with. Also, about Shimeh, I feel like even Bakker at that point was unsure of where the metagnosis would go (though I know probably none will agree with me on that).
In any case, Kellhus wouldn't be so dumb as to let the world know he was tired from his castings. Also, he only 'jumped' a few times in that battle. Actually the only one I can remember is his jump from Moe to the battle, but I'm sure there is more. Certainly though, not nearly as many as it would take to jump from horizon to horizon all the way from Sakarpus to Monmen. That exhaustion would be much more pronounced, and still he cows that cult chick and whisks Esmi away without batting and eyelash.
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Actually isn't there a bit that blatantly stated that there was a baseline human Mandate sorcerer that was famous for being the first non-Dunyain to successfully perform a metagnostic cant?
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yeah, and since all of us rampantly overdetermine every iota of text (and a lot of 'between the lines' text that doesn't exist except in our individually flawed readings (and our group meta readings of positive feedback loops that may ossify incorrect interpretations into pseudo canonical status) too), many of us immediately assumed Bakker was lying to us indirectly and that the above mentioned Mandate Sorcerer (Sacarees I think?) was actually a closet Dunyain.
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I dunno lockesnow, a lot of the pseudo-canon got left on the westeros threads.
I think most of us recognise that the books are ambiguous and that we're speculating wildly about this stuff.
Given examples like Titirga and Fane, I don't see what's so hard to swallow about a talented worldborn gnostic sorcerer being able to manage some metagnosis.
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There is mention that Saracees sounds like Khellus, but I still don't think he's Dunyain. Twenty years isn't enough time for someone to rise to Grandmaster from out of the blue.
If Bakker just didn't mention this detail, it'll make TUC rather flawed no?
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I dunno lockesnow, a lot of the pseudo-canon got left on the westeros threads.
I think most of us recognise that the books are ambiguous and that we're speculating wildly about this stuff.
Given examples like Titirga and Fane, I don't see what's so hard to swallow about a talented worldborn gnostic sorcerer being able to manage some metagnosis.
Greag points, part of my issue with some of the westeros threads pseudo canon is that it often starts with a presumption of authorial infidelity.
Given what Bakker has said about communicating with audiences, particularly in terms of outreach and connecting to normal genre readers I don't think he's trying to be an unfaithful author, rampantly lying to his audience with insane, unfathomable mysteries and misdirection. I generally default to the books being reliable rather than tricksy. There is definitely some trickery of course, but I tend to think that the trickery is of the "hidden in plain sight" variety.
for example, I don't think we should really be questioning the What has Come Before simply because there doesn't seem to be any reason or profitable lines of inquiry in it. And what's the point of an author lying to his audience with a non-diagetic summation of previous volumes? But something 'hidden in plain sight' like what the world-virgin Kellhus thinks of the gods Leweth refers to is incredibly insightful in the wake of revelations in the TAE series.
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Bakker doesn't have to deliberately lie to his audience. Plot details gleaned in interviews are nice, but until they actually show up in a published book I assume that they're subject to change as the series progresses.
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I have it on pretty decent authority - not to mention the systematic errors in the What Has Come Before in PON - that the What Has Come Before cannot be trusted.
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I have it on pretty decent authority - not to mention the systematic errors in the What Has Come Before in PON - that the What Has Come Before cannot be trusted.
Must be nice knowing someone on the inside. How do you know you have a good informant?
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Lol, well, that's the thing about informants. I won't know until their info pans out... which could be awhile with TSA.
But lets look at the facts. I know I can point out at least two or three passages within the What Has Come Before of TWP and TTT that directly contradict what happens in the previous book. There are a number of others that gloss over much needed particulars within the texts.
This should be expected. I wouldn't think an author would just give away everything in the What Has Come Before - which is actually an old strategy within SFF books of the last fifty years. It's not about accuracy, it's about baiting. Especially with paraphrasing rather than quotation.
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Well prove it, let's see some quotation that compares and contrasts the one to the other.
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Well prove it, let's see some quotation that compares and contrasts the one to the other.
Ha I asked this question on another post yesterday, since we are getting off topic and the bored can always use a new post. Though no responses yet.
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I saw the “what has come before” as a sort of official history.
No one believes history books are 100% accurate after all.
And i also saw blatant discrepancies in there.
As for Akka’s power level.
Here is part of the Celmomas Prophecy from TDTCB
The high king shook his head, stilled him with tender eyes.”They call to me. (He’s talking of the Gods)
They say that my end is not the worlds end. That burden they say is yours. Yours Seawatha.
If the above prophecy is to be taken seriously, (and i think that’s exactly what we are heading towards with Akka’s dreams. (A true merging of Akka and Seawatha)
Then the question of Akka’s power, could also be asked of Seawathas power.
And Seawaths is a whole other beast.
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Other than that, I would suggest his power levels are clearly somewhat in excess of 9000. (Someone had to say it) -.-
Hillarious.
Am just reading the forum and stuff I missed.
Regarding the meritum. Incariol was far better than Akka I feel. I think Kelhus is far better than Quaya now. But after reading the story of False Sun I really feel Titigra was a bad-ass.
So in my op Kelhus>Sheonara>Quaya of old>Kelhus magic offspring>Akka>Meppa>Mandati & Saccarees>Iyoukus and his team.
So if Akka is 9000 then matemathically:
17.999>16.500>16.000>10.000>9.000>8.500>8.250>6.000
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Wouldn't the meta gnosis raise it an order of magnitude, rather than a mere doubling?
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Wouldn't the meta gnosis raise it an order of magnitude, rather than a mere doubling?
agree.
meta-prefix is like goku normal compared to super saiyan goku.
or SSJ4<SSJ3<SSJ2<SSJ is basically on a log scale.
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"The 'Third Phrase' was a thing of myth in Gnostic sorcery, a story handed down to Men during the Nonman Tutelage: the legend of Su'juroit, the great Cunoroi Witch-King." (p139, TTT LE)
I really think this conversation of the Metagnosis and who can wield it actually boils down to whether or not all Metagnostic sorcerers are, in fact, Dunyain.
So Su'juroit was a Witch-King?
I know that Cnaiur describes or thinks of the Dunyain as witches at one point as well if not multiple times.
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We can't be sure of the degrees of separation here.
I figure Cnaiur's reference to witches is cultural. They were a Tribe of the Tusk before the advent of the No-God and they hold those prejudices - Cnaiur's Chorae was hereditary, after all.
What is a Witch-King in a culture where Quya are hereditary sorcerers and most assuredly, already, dominate the other caste of Nonmen? Extra +1 Witch-King Domination?
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@ lockesnow - you said
Akka, coming from the area around the Mandate's stronghold, is possibly descended from a Seswatha bastard. :-p
THAT'S AWESOME!!! Seswatha (prominent candidate for the darkness that comes before the Dunyain) starts a pseudo breeding program on the island. LOTS of little Seswatha's running about. LOTS
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@ SkieOfAzel, you said
in the DTCB Akka said that the Gnosis is Quya refined and improved for 2 thousand years, so i'd assume that he is more powerful than most Quya Mages except for some big Isroi names like Cleric
I hadn't thought of improvements to the gnosis--could be that Akka is nearing Seswatha's power level because of gnosis improvements. I don't know if the quya would also be refining during that time or just sticking with their old ways.
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It's funny how Bakker can sell us the idea of Akka being weak, but he is nearly undefeated. Akka's Kill List:
- 1 Cishaurim, mentioned as happening before TDTCB
- 1 Witch? did he kill to get that doll?
- 2 Scarlet Schoolmen, killed in the Sareotic Library
- 2 more SS in the Iothaih compound
- 1 Ciphrang summoned by Ioyokus
- 4 Imperial Saik, all at once outside of Shimeh
- Oodles of sranc
- 1 Dragon expelled (with help)
- 1 Nonman King/Quya/Ishroi (suspicious)
Additionally he takes down tons of Nansur soldiers, pulls buildings down on SS Javreh, and humbles Ioyokus to the point that he or someone else can cut out the faceballs.
Really, there's only one contest that he *seems* to lose, against the ciphrang outside of Shimeh, maybe killed by Kellhus or called of by Ioyokus at Kellhus' behest. It's a pretty sweet resume for Akka.
This fucker slept with the empress, helped uncover the Consult, cursed a living prophet to all the world, abandoned his school, passed the black halls, and uncovered the secret hidden from even the No-God. His career is so distinguished, at this point he is probably the second most noteworthy Mandati besides the school's founder. It's just neat to look at Akka's career panaromically.
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Agree on the Akka front. Its interesting to think that he was conditioned so heavily to think he is worthless. Is that typical of Mandate teaching, or was he a special case?
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Agree on the Akka front. Its interesting to think that he was conditioned so heavily to think he is worthless. Is that typical of Mandate teaching, or was he a special case?
If he is a special case, then that seems to lend credence to the idea that Seswatha or a god is molding him into a specific role.
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I think that it's always been the case that whenever some real life variables were satisfied them, the Mandati who occupied that circumstantial crux would have the potential for greater access to Seswatha's life. TDTCB tells us in the opening chapter that it's common enough for Mandati to go mad deciphering the Dreams and that Achamian himself is attempting a chronicle. TJE also opens with this chronicling by Achamian. So he both found the Anasurimbor and spent the time and energy studying 'ze permutations ;).
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I think Akka's only major divine benefactor is the whore. He's a true hero.
Throwing in on the power level discussion. I think he is in 99th percentile or whatever for sorcerers on earth. At least in terms of his raw capacity, maybe not his delicacy. The metagnostics probably outclass him but honestly I wouldn't be surprised if he could take one down. Just not kellhus. The greatest quya are only a little better than him. He is one of the greatest human sorcerers alive.
I think in the first book that akka says while he sometime has trouble believing it, his power has never let him down when he needed it. I think that was an unwitting portent. So far, it has proved to be true.
Akka was born talented and now Seswatha is opening up to him.
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I think Akka's only major divine benefactor is the whore. He's a true hero.
Throwing in on the power level discussion. I think he is in 99th percentile or whatever for sorcerers on earth. At least in terms of his raw capacity, maybe not his delicacy. The metagnostics probably outclass him but honestly I wouldn't be surprised if he could take one down. Just not kellhus. The greatest quya are only a little better than him. He is one of the greatest human sorcerers alive.
I think in the first book that akka says while he sometime has trouble believing it, his power has never let him down when he needed it. I think that was an unwitting portent. So far, it has proved to be true.
Akka was born talented and now Seswatha is opening up to him.
Truth!
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I think in the first book that akka says while he sometime has trouble believing it, his power has never let him down when he needed it. I think that was an unwitting portent. So far, it has proved to be true.
I'm all for truths hidden in the text. Do like.
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Another thing that Achamian has going for him is just simple experience; the mf has had so many opportunities now to just drop some gnosis on fools and sranc. I mean how many mandati actually have the chance to openly battle with a couple of SSmen like he did in the Sareotic Library? Or fuck with a dragon in conjunction with a Quya Super Mage?
I don't remember exactly how detailed Bakker got about training sorcerors but it seems like Achamian has had a lot more 'range time' than your average sorcerer of rank. Most of these guys are probably sitting around just waiting to use their powers and are kind of untested. We know that in the heat of the moment Akka manages to hang in there and not get himself killed.
I think it's tough to determine how much of his power comes from simply walking near Kellhus for a bit. Not his raw sorcerous ability or talent, but just in terms of having chances to unleash some shit.
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Completely agree. He might have been "demoted" to field spy his whole life, some kind of glass ceiling I imagine, but ironically it probably made him one of the strongest among the Mandate (at least before Kellhus got in there and shook things up). Nothings quite beats practical experience. The scholastic wars are basically the only other time the Mandate would have been forced to take the field, but Akka would still have more experience.
Also, sorcerer of the rank. ;) (or at least thats what Akka originally muses at the Library, it may be described different elsewhere).
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Akka has been described as a War Cant Master and Sorcerer of The Rank. Granted he gives these descriptions to himself but we know Akka does not blow his own trumpet too much and his actions seem to tie in with this.
I think that Akka is not politically or personally powerful within the Mandate hierarchy due to Proyas rejection of him and Mandate teaching, however I do believe that Akka has attained the highest possible ranking within the Mandate so is Sorcerously powerful. Nautzeru clearly holds him in respect despite his political blunderings.
Lets not forget Elezearas shits his pants when Akka is even near him in PoN and muses on how a Mandati field spy can cow the Leader of the greatest school in the three seas.
Personally I think since the Slog of Slogs Akkas power is really developing. Who knows what effect eating Qirri from a Nonman Super-Quya will do? As well as eating the Qirri that Cleric was feeding him. Can anyone refresh my memory who the Nonman Qirri was from that Incariol was feeding them at the start?
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Pretty sure it was the ashes of that Ghost they found in the bottom of Cil'Aujas.
Who knows what effect eating Qirri from a Nonman Super-Quya will do
Echos of Chanv.
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Can anyone refresh my memory who the Nonman Qirri was from that Incariol was feeding them at the start?
It was Cu-jara-Cinmoi's ashes, wasn't it? That was Mimara's belief, anyway.
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Cleric told her they only burn the greatest and he was reverant over the Qirri to an extent. I think its implied in the textual evidence and in Mimaras belief but it is by no means explicit.
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Of course, that's the great caveat of all Bakker's TSA: 'truth' is relative to the character. We, as readers, can be 'told' the 'truth' from a character's perspective, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's the TRUTH. So, maybe a better question would have been 'Whose ashes are they thought to be?' As far as we know, they're Cu-jara-Cinmoi's, but as has been illustrated time and again, we, as readers, don't know shit.
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I think the Qirri was Cujara so I will except that as my truth. Whoever it ultimately was it definetely upped Akkas power level.
As the title says Akkas power level, where does everyone think Akka stands now in terms of individuals? Maybe needs a new thread or one already exists with some kind of power level ranking? Kind of ties in with http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1328.0
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CC had to show up in some form. He's Bakker's alt account in Earwa. :p
Always felt that Akka was very powerful. The fact that the Quorum kept him in the field suggests he was effective as a spy/diplomat as well as the fact that Simas and co. viewed him as a political threat.
His victories against multiple anagogics at the library, a powerful Cpihrang and Wutteat show he is tactically clever and extremely formidible.
Intellectually, he is perceptive and flexible (it's his intuition and blame-shifting habits that let him down mostly).
I think he would give Sacarees a good fight, and is also probably capable of the meta-gnosis (more so after using quirri - but I don't think he will get the opportunity to learn it).
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I think Akka would demolish Sacarees now he has Qirri-Boost!
Wonder how Meppa compares - I would have to say Meppa would be stronger based on the capabilities of the Cish Primaries and how he is a "torrent" of water.
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@larrytheimp - I wanted to second what you said:
Another thing that Achamian has going for him is just simple experience; the mf has had so many opportunities now to just drop some gnosis on fools and sranc.
Perhaps a god or Seswatha has been exposing Akka to just the right amount of experience all along for some kind of final act…
@SilentRoamer - Also wanted to second what you said:
Personally I think since the Slog of Slogs Akkas power is really developing. Who knows what effect eating Qirri from a Nonman Super-Quya will do?
Akka, honed by the years, PLUS qirri--HIS TIME IS COMING! I wonder if there is a ceiling on qirri use, as in, can he take so much that he would rival a meta-gnostic?
Crackpot: somehow, someway some of the other awesomes get ahold of qirri--Meppa + Qirri? Kellhus + Qirri? Kellhus kills Mekeritrig or Nin'janjin at Dagliash and consumes all of their ashes right before fighting the Cheater of the Gods!
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I think Akka would demolish any world born human sorcerers at this point - except Meppa as he is a bit of an unknown. I also think that would include any meta-gnostic trained human sorcerers such as Saccarees. I think even the half Dunyain are simply too intellectually efficient for Akka to get close. Out of the World Born though - Akka seems boss. :)
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I'm starting to believe that Akka has started to use something along the lines of the "Meta-Gnosis" in some way without knowing it. It is never really supported by text, but I think his use of CC's Qirri and now Nil'Giccas, has "sharpened his intellect" enough to be able to cross the boundary... If he keeps snorting that damn Qirri, he might just start spouting off some Auji-Gilcunni.
On a more topical note, aside from Kellhus, I now put Akka above Nonmen Quya, remaining Mangaecca, Inchoroi, Meppa or any other remaining Cishaurim, Saccarees, and Serwe etc... as the second most powerful practitioner of sorcery on Earwa.
On a side note: I don't think being Dunyain is a prerequisite for using the Meta-Gnosis
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Garet I agree with you in that I dont think being Dunyain is a pre-requisite for knowledge of the Meta-Gnosis I just think it would be an advantage - sharper intellects making it easier for the Dunyain but not impossible for the exceptionally gifted World-Born.
I agree with you that Akka is above remaining Nonmen Quya, based on what we have seen.
I feel like Meppa is an unknown - but we know he has a "torrent" of water and from my reading the SS severely underestimated the force that the Cish could bring to bear. If I remember rightly the Primaries were basically wrecking the Anagogic Schools before Kellhus demolished them with his Cant of Transposing and Enshoiya - this was a complete surprise for them and we really did not see them react due to the speed and prowess of Kellhus.
I agree with you to some extent regarding the Mangeacca except that we know Shae has an awesome intellect - I mean the guy brought down the Barricades which was no mean feat. I know this was not an out and out test of power but we know intellect is power and I don't think Shae would be a pushover.
I think the Inchies might surprise us with their level of power - in TWP when Kellhus confronts compulsed Esmi he recognises an immense Mark and reflects on how the huge shout of the Inchies sorcery was reduced over the distance. I just have a feeling one of the Inchie brothers is going to be a Meta-Gnosis wrecking ball. (BTW I fucking love that scene where Kellhus tumbles into the Inchie soul!)
Serwa outranks Saccarees IMO and I think Akka could take both of these.
Akka is getting to be like a BOSS!
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This is an interesting discussion, it's not really clear to me how "power" is determined though. Would a Kellhus Gnostic Cant be inherently stronger than an Akka Gnostic Cant because of his intelligence and purity of meaning, or would his advantage be in being able to cast them effortlessly and continuously while Akka would tire first? Also, is it possible to create new utterals and inutterals or is Kellhus mixing and matching ones that are already used when he does his Meta-Gnostic Cants?
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This is an interesting discussion, it's not really clear to me how "power" is determined though. Would a Kellhus Gnostic Cant be inherently stronger than an Akka Gnostic Cant because of his intelligence and purity of meaning, or would his advantage be in being able to cast them effortlessly and continuously while Akka would tire first? Also, is it possible to create new utterals and inutterals or is Kellhus mixing and matching ones that are already used when he does his Meta-Gnostic Cants?
I think both would be to his advantage.
The purity of meaning in Gnostic Sorcery is achieved by using the utteral (spoken) and inutteral (thought) together. I think Kellhus could hold a more "pure" inutteral in his head than Akka could resulting in a stronger Cant. To your second point, I also think that Kellhus could cast them more "effortlessly and continuously" than ol' Akka could, though I am not sure it would be Akka getting tired that would give Kellhus the advantage.
I am not sure either way if you can create new utteral and inutterals, but I don't see why not. But, iirc, it is the use of the second inutteral that enables the use of the Meta Gnosis. I think the Cant of Transposing was an expansion on the Cant of Far Calling or something like that.
I don't have my books on me, but in TTT there are some really good descriptions on this very topic about halfway through the book.
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The second inutteral changes or amplifies the meaning of the first inutteral as Garet posits correctly above. The Cant of Transposing is the Cant of Calling with an additional innuteral.
I think at this point Kellhus is beyond traditional utterals/inutterals. I would actually not be surprised if Kellhus created a "pure" language for his Gnostic sorcery - he has had 20 years to do this, this giving him purity of meaning and recitation far beyond all regular sorcery.
Didn't it intimate in the text that Gnostic utterals were more powerful than Anagogic due to being closer to the original Cunoroi? (Cuniform?)
Do you think Kellhus has the Psukhe now as well or is this the wild card?
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Maybe I'm looking at it too much in video game terms, I'm just curious how much native intelligence plays a role in the power of the cant. For example would Kellhus using Anagogic sorcery be able to rank Gnostic sorcerers or is the gulf in power too great? Or how Meta-Anagogic Cants would stack up against the regular Gnosis.
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Anagogic is basically a precursor to Gnostic - or that is how I understand it. The right semantic leaps in Anagogic thinking leads to the Gnosis. Like a musket and a rifle.
The other sorceries are independent of each other but the Anagogic/Gnostic sorceries are the same subset. IMO.
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It's possible that qirri is a wild card that Kellhus hasn't accounted for. While its hard to think of anything he's left out, the idea of huffing nonmen must be pretty scarcely know, perhaps even a secret too the nonmen culture. For all we know, only 2 people have ever been burned up and snorted. Possibly qirri only works with humans snorting nonmen. But I am curious what happens when nonmen snort nonmen, nonmen snort humans, and humans snort humans (since Earwa is so damn different than our own world).
Akka, qirri-mad and Seswatha possessed along with sidekick Judging Eye Woman, might be the happy chance that saves/destroys the world.
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I think Akka's only major divine benefactor is the whore. He's a true hero.
Throwing in on the power level discussion. I think he is in 99th percentile or whatever for sorcerers on earth. At least in terms of his raw capacity, maybe not his delicacy. The metagnostics probably outclass him but honestly I wouldn't be surprised if he could take one down. Just not kellhus. The greatest quya are only a little better than him. He is one of the greatest human sorcerers alive.
I think in the first book that akka says while he sometime has trouble believing it, his power has never let him down when he needed it. I think that was an unwitting portent. So far, it has proved to be true.
Akka was born talented and now Seswatha is opening up to him.
Indeed and Kellhus peers deep and sees how strong Akka is as well, a lot stronger than anyone believes especially himself. Esme later sees it as she is reading the sagas.
With the added spice of Quirri and extra experience i suspect he's significantly more deadly than he was at the end of TTT.
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Is Akka going to be his era's Seswatha? It seems so with his relationship to Esmenet (similar to Seswatha's relationship to the high queen). Also Akka beat down both Wuteat and Nil'giccas. Holy crap. A four-thousand year old nonman king and the father of dragons!
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The Cleric Suicides (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=456.msg2112#msg2112)
This might provide you with some entertainment. Some would argue Cleric simply gave up, and technically the dragon ran away, which might not be 'defeated'.
At any rate, his life does seem to have a lot of parallels with Seswatha. The whole 'history repeats' bit seems to be playing out, and who else but Akka to play that particular role.
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I think as powerful as Akka has grown to at this point this is a legendary Quya - ancient before the First Apocalypse, before the rise of man even. Akka is pretty overmatched.
Thats not to say that Akka didn't legitemately win, the Whore of Fate may have been smiling at his lucky blow, or Nil'giccas may have just decided this was the end of the line.
Personally I think Cleric had reached the end of his line. I think Nonmen have a sort of temporal cognitive dissonance.
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When Cleric sees Wutteat in the Coffers he outright says "This is where I am meant to die." or something along those lines. Cleric was done.
I think Akka is definitely among the absolute top of human sorcerers. I suspect that surviving Quya, Dunyain (or half-Dunyain), and the Twins probably outclass him. Of course "power levels" is kind of bullshit anyway. Just because someone might beat Akka in a fight 9 times out of 10 doesn't mean that the die won't occasionally come up a 1. And there's things to think about beyond raw power. Before he became Shauriatas, Shaeonanra wasn't known for the power of his sorcery, but for the unconventional subtlety of it. In a shoving match, others were stronger. But he came up with weird loopholes and tricks that made him the most formidable man in his School. This kind of thing is hard to quantify.
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Of course "power levels" is kind of bullshit anyway
Shae beat Titirga. The strongest human sorcerer of all time went into a mountain, never to be seen again. Defeated by a hole in the ground and a pile or rocks on his head.
On that note, they all salt the same way if struck by a chorae.
Intellectual acuity is far more important than 'raw power'.
Consider that Kellhus' rock whirlwind was not a meta-gnostic cant or ward, yet was entirely novel and rendered him essentially immune to thrown or shot chorae.
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Ah thats interesting Wilshire, I always assumed he sort of riffed it from the No-God.
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Possible, but the point is still that he was able to come up with a solution that no one else had, even though he was given the same variables.
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The Billows the sorcerers and witches of the Great Ordeal wear are also quite novel and I suspect Kellhus's idea.
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Yeah I loved that adaption of his own whirlwind. Much easier to carry around than a sack full of rocks :P
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Is Akka going to be his era's Seswatha? It seems so with his relationship to Esmenet (similar to Seswatha's relationship to the high queen). Also Akka beat down both Wuteat and Nil'giccas. Holy crap. A four-thousand year old nonman king and the father of dragons!
lol, i didn't think of it before, but maybe this is a Nietzschean influence on Bakker? eternal reccurence?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return
what does a sorcerer do when he is forced to repeat misery with every small and great turn of the wheel? love fate! but is not fate a whore? yes, she is his wife
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You're saying Esmi is Anagkë?
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I don't think Esmenet is a direct descendant or a reincarnation (which isn't possible for Earwa as the soul is clearly eternal, i.e. damnation) of the High Kings wife, but Seswatha and Akka have too much in common to ignore. Perhaps the whelming and the Mandate itself were created by Seswatha to create people capable of playing his role to Anaxophus - whatever that was exactly. And this assumption leads me to Akka being the modern Seswatha.
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Seswatha seems to quite literally be inside every Mandati. But he seems to give Akka special treatment, judging by the changing nature of his dreams.
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Maybe Akka's role in discovering Kellhus, first mandati to see a skinspy, and indeed even the vessel that Ses and Kell spoke through presumably, has Ses with his nose up against the glass, so to speak. Might even be that Ses' Outside proximity to Akka's mind is responsible in some part for the strength of his Abstractions.
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I've often wondered what two souls doing Inutterals would do to sorcery, if anything.
Maybe Kel and Sammy can show us some day.
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Could just be that as a Mandate schoolman gets older their dreams change. Achaymian is really old after all.
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Achamian is a student of the dreams - not just his own.
I would expect if dreams changed with age this would be well documented amongst the Mandate and known to Akka.
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I've often wondered what two souls doing Inutterals would do to sorcery, if anything.
Maybe Kel and Sammy can show us some day.
i'd never thought of it! is this how Kellhus can sing with three voices--2 souls! did he bifurcate Sacarees' soul???
@ Wilshire -- i think Esmi could 'be' Fate in a kind of Iliad sense--the gods tend to toy with their favorites. Esmi is Fate's favorite, Kellhus is the favorite of War or Deceit, Mimara may be Yatwer's icon, something like that
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Being a puppet isn't the same as 'being' the god itself though. I dunno.
And if fate is anyone in that regard, it must be Akka. He's Anagke's bitch.