[TUC Spoilers] Inverse fire

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Woden

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« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2017, 09:56:33 pm »
What was Serwa's hunger?

Don't know. But she would be a cute ciphrang. Better be devoured by her and not by Kosoter, lol.
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Cynical Cat

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« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2017, 12:55:47 pm »
I see no reason to think he conquers hell besides his stated intent to do so. Things didn't go as planned.

He used the past tense and appeared to truthful in his disputations with the Consult.  On the other hand, things did not go as planned and those words did come out of the mouth of a Dunyain.  We're lacking on details for obvious reasons.  Maybe he's fodder in Hell, but he might also be hunger.

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« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2017, 02:20:53 pm »
I'll make my final interpretative decision once I get there in the canon artifact but as far as my reading goes so far I *still* attribute Kellhus' dialogue regarding "seeing himself" in the Inverse Fire and making "pacts with the Pit" to Ajokli.
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Cynical Cat

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« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2017, 07:08:13 pm »
I'll make my final interpretative decision once I get there in the canon artifact but as far as my reading goes so far I *still* attribute Kellhus' dialogue regarding "seeing himself" in the Inverse Fire and making "pacts with the Pit" to Ajokli.

Perhaps, but it wasn't in boldface and avoiding damnation by pacting with the Pit is a very, very Dunyain thing to do.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2017, 07:21:13 pm »
It is but that doesn't mean it was done successfully. Ajokli doesn't seem very trustworthy to me.

Dez

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« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2017, 12:48:29 am »
I'll make my final interpretative decision once I get there in the canon artifact but as far as my reading goes so far I *still* attribute Kellhus' dialogue regarding "seeing himself" in the Inverse Fire and making "pacts with the Pit" to Ajokli.

I definitely think that what Kellhus saw was at least partially influenced by Ajokli's growing influence, but I couldn't really find any real clues that he'd been completely possessed earlier that the final moments in the Golden Room.

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« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2017, 02:03:39 am »
Again, a close reading of the canon artifact is necessary for me.

But...

Ajokli isn't like the other Gods, or so we've been told across the series. Attributing the dialogue in the Golden Room to Ajokli, even pre-full-on Ghost Rider God-Mode, seems to yield more interesting interpretations than Kellhus "making pacts with the Pit."
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Cynical Cat

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« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2017, 08:44:04 am »
It is but that doesn't mean it was done successfully. Ajokli doesn't seem very trustworthy to me.

That's true.  We're a little short of other information to compare with Kellhus's claims.

H

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« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2017, 10:17:46 am »
Again, a close reading of the canon artifact is necessary for me.

But...

Ajokli isn't like the other Gods, or so we've been told across the series. Attributing the dialogue in the Golden Room to Ajokli, even pre-full-on Ghost Rider God-Mode, seems to yield more interesting interpretations than Kellhus "making pacts with the Pit."

In my mind though, I think that what we are seeing there is more of a Ajokli-spiked-Kellhus, rather than just Ajokli.  To me, Ajokli making pacts with Hell really doesn't make much sense, since he (seemingly) would already have tremendous power there.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Duskweaver

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« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2017, 12:33:27 pm »
Quote
In my mind though, I think that what we are seeing there is more of a Ajokli-spiked-Kellhus, rather than just Ajokli.  To me, Ajokli making pacts with Hell really doesn't make much sense, since he (seemingly) would already have tremendous power there.

There's the tiniest spark of suspicion in the back of my mind that the truth of Ajokli's nature/origins isn't quite as simple as we've been led to believe. Yeah, Cnaiur becomes Ajokli at the end of TUC. That's pretty clear.

But just who is Cnaiur at that point? He's spent 20 years hating Kelhus, hunting Kellhus, devoting his every moment, every last smoking swazond of his crocodilian soul to seeing Kellhus brought to ruin. But hatred binds souls even more surely than love. He is still Kellhus' puppet. His soul is entirely bent around the head-on-a-pole that is Kellhus. Goaded by the hatred that Kellhus seeded in him, he has made himself into the perfect place for Kellhus to hide from the judgement of the Outside.

That's why Ajokli cannot find Kellhus' soul. Because a god cannot look inside himself. Ajokli is, at least in a sense, both Cnaiur and Kellhus, because he was created by Kellhus's soul acting upon (moving) Cnaiur's soul.

The scene in the Golden Room and Malowebi's revelation mirrors Cnaiur-as-Ajokli's blindness perfectly. Ajokli is carried into the World hidden inside Kellhus, and Kellhus is carried into the Outside hidden inside Ajokli.

And if I'm right about all that, then it actually makes perfect sense that we cannot find a logical division between Kellhus speaking and Ajokli speaking in the Golden Room scene. Because neither Kellhus nor Ajokli can tell where one starts and the other ends either. Statements that don't make sense from either standpoint exclusively are exactly what we should expect there.

I now confidently expect, at the end of TSTMNBN, to read of Mimara gazing upon Ajokli with the Judging Eye and seeing Cnaiur and Kellhus. Fucking. :)

(Of course, my track record with this sort of thing is abysmal, so...)
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

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« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2017, 12:51:55 pm »
And if I'm right about all that, then it actually makes perfect sense that we cannot find a logical division between Kellhus speaking and Ajokli speaking in the Golden Room scene. Because neither Kellhus nor Ajokli can tell where one starts and the other ends either. Statements that don't make sense from either standpoint exclusively are exactly what we should expect there.

Well, indeed, I don't think (until the point where his head is a gout of flame) that we can easily differentiate between Kellhus and Ajokli, because they are actually one person (until they aren't).
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Duskweaver

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« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2017, 01:27:50 pm »
EDIT1: I don't think the my-head-is-a-fountain-of-flame moment is the point at which they stop being one, though. I think that only happens when Kelmomas (inadvertently?) banishes Ajokli a few moments later. And I'm not even really sure about that.

Thought experiment: What happens if we have two sorcerers using the Cants of Compulsion on each other simultaneously? How would anyone differentiate those two souls? Would they become (at least temporarily) a single self-moving soul?

EDIT2: It's also just occurred to me that the second Decapitant (who was presumably either Ajokli or Kellhus' own head) seems to have vanished when we return to Malowebi's PoV following Kellhus' salting.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 01:34:23 pm by Duskweaver »
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

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« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2017, 01:32:56 pm »
I don't think there is necessarily any moment when they aren't, though.

Thought experiment: What happens if we have two sorcerers using the Cants of Compulsion on each other simultaneously? How would anyone differentiate those two souls? Would they become (at least temporarily) a single self-moving soul?

Well, post-Salting, I'd think they were separate at least.  Perhaps not before though.

Thought experiment: What happens if we have two sorcerers using the Cants of Compulsion on each other simultaneously? How would anyone differentiate those two souls? Would they become (at least temporarily) a single self-moving soul?

I would imagine it is more akin to a positive-feedback loop though.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Duskweaver

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« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2017, 01:33:45 pm »
Heh, you replied while I was editing.

That might just be Kellhus and only Kellhus when Kelmomas shows up. Post-salting it's irrelevant, since at that point neither Ajokli nor Kellhus is present.

(Edited once again for clarity. Sorry about this.)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 01:37:15 pm by Duskweaver »
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

H

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« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2017, 01:35:43 pm »
Heh, you replied while I was editing.

I really need a reread...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira