The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: Capt.Croaker on August 14, 2013, 09:26:51 pm

Title: Pronunciation
Post by: Capt.Croaker on August 14, 2013, 09:26:51 pm
i'm not the only one who did'nt pay attention in english class. heres a short list.............

cnaiur urs skiotha
scylvendi
Anasurimbor
inchoroi
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Meyna on August 15, 2013, 10:49:23 am
I think there are pronunciation  guides in the glossaries of the books, but, anyway, here's how I have them in my head:

NAY-ur urss ski-OH-thuh
skill-VEN-di
ah-nah-SOOR-imm-bore
in-cho-roy

I could be wrong, though. Anyone adept at IPA translation?

Edit: Anyone else roll that first R in addition to lengthening the vowel sound in Anasurimbor?
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Wilshire on August 15, 2013, 12:14:49 pm
I'd agree with Meyna on all accounts. There is a guide in the back, at least in The Thousandfold Thought, that has a pronunciation guide, and the more or less phonetic spelling of names seems to make sense (or at least close enough for it not to be worth point out a difference).

If it makes you feel any better, I personally heard Bakker say that he doesn't know how to pronounce some of the names so just go with what you feel :P
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Madness on August 15, 2013, 03:26:31 pm
I passed a linguistics class once, Meyna. Mayhaps, when I actually have a day off with nothing else to deal with I can fit in some extra forum time.

The english alphabet actually reads differently when "trying to sound it out," if your first language is not english ;). But yes, those fit Bakker's linguistic offerings in TDTCB Appendix.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Meyna on August 16, 2013, 11:06:28 pm
I can't decide how "Cishaurim" is supposed to be pronounced. Hard "c" vs. soft "c"; "au" pronounced as "awe" or "ow"; "im" pronounced as "imm" or "eem", etc. When in doubt, pronounce as in ancient Latin, I always say.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Wilshire on August 17, 2013, 05:42:32 pm
Sish-are-em

Thats my vote. I don't know anything about latin

Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Meyna on August 17, 2013, 08:30:13 pm
keess-HOW-reem, I think. Though, in this case, I lean towards something like yours, Wilshire. That or sih-shah-rim.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Wilshire on August 17, 2013, 08:46:22 pm
I don't like that first one :P and the second one is pretty much what I was attempting.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Madness on August 18, 2013, 03:17:08 pm
I've always gone soft C with an audible hiss ;). For the snakes, you know.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Meyna on August 19, 2013, 02:04:07 am
I've always gone soft C with an audible hiss ;). For the snakes, you know.

Ah, of course!
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Francis Buck on August 20, 2013, 02:31:58 am
Wait, so you guys pronounce it In-chor-oy, with "ch" as in change? I always said Inkoroi (in most cases I assume "ch" is "k", like Achamian, though are some exceptions, like Chigra).

I've also always pronounced Cishaurim with a soft C. Never even thought about the snake aspect. But yeah, someone on Westeros (I believe Trisky) pointed out that their tribes is the Indara-Kish, or something along those lines. K's and C's are weird.

Like Cujara'Cinmoi. I always say Kujara'Sinmoi, but I feel that's not correct. I also say Sillvendi, though that's just a habit.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Meyna on August 20, 2013, 11:07:17 am
I personally use a hard "c" for Achamian, Scylvendi, and Cujara, and a soft "c" for Inchoroi, Cishaurim, and Cinmoi. It's hard to tell which is proper, unless the language trees in the back of the books offer any insight (and I don't think they do).
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Baztek on August 20, 2013, 08:26:42 pm
I use a hard 'k' for inchoroi. Inch-oroy sounds weird to me. I also remember seeing an interview where Bakker pronounces Achamian as Uh-ka-mien, which is way cooler than how I was saying it in my head.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Francis Buck on August 20, 2013, 10:32:52 pm
Same here. And yeah, I always liked the way Bakker pronounced Achamian, it actually sounds better than the pronunciation key he has in the back TDTCB for Achamian (ah-kay-me-on, I think it is).
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Madness on August 21, 2013, 04:33:29 pm
Like Cujara'Cinmoi. I always say Kujara'Sinmoi, but I feel that's not correct. I also say Sillvendi, though that's just a habit.

+1 on Ku'jara Sinmoi. That's how I've always said it.

Bakker actually claims that these books wouldn't survive a rigorous linguistic analysis but I told him I'm not so sure.

There are after all rules governing why C can be K or C can be S (in this case, u and i are different phonemes, which could account for the difference in pronunciation. Damnit... Breaking out the IPA again soon.

We'll see just how consistent he is ;).

I personally use a hard "c" for Achamian, Scylvendi, and Cujara, and a soft "c" for Inchoroi, Cishaurim, and Cinmoi. It's hard to tell which is proper, unless the language trees in the back of the books offer any insight (and I don't think they do).

Like Skillvendi?
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Baztek on August 21, 2013, 10:58:11 pm
I always used to read it as skill-vend-ee which is horrible. I prefer sill-ven-di way more, it's almost kind of beautiful.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Wilshire on August 21, 2013, 11:01:58 pm
Hmm I like the first way, its a lot harsher. The People are not beautiful.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Francis Buck on August 21, 2013, 11:19:17 pm
I also originally assumed Sill-vendi, having been under the impression that they were at least partially inspired by the Scythians.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Meyna on August 22, 2013, 12:31:58 am
Like Skillvendi?

Precisely!
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Madness on August 22, 2013, 02:03:16 pm
The People are not beautiful.

Amen. I believe.

Precisely!

It also makes the Hemscilvara sound like a band with balls.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Quinthane on October 01, 2013, 01:42:02 pm
There is a guide in the back, at least in The Thousandfold Thought, that has a pronunciation guide,

??? why does my copy of TTT not have this? i have an encyclopedic glossary, 3 maps and that's it.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Wilshire on October 01, 2013, 02:20:34 pm
There is some small guidance offered next to the names in the beginning.... I think? I'm not looking at it right now so I can't be sure, but I thought that in the back of all the books the major characters are listed with a brief description of who they are and a pronunciation guide.  I didn't mean to suggest that there is an extensive one anywhere.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Madness on October 01, 2013, 07:08:37 pm
Pronunciation guide is in the end of my copy of TDTCB.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Wilshire on January 23, 2014, 09:11:44 pm
Not particularly comfortable with these phonetic spelling things, but this is my best approximation. Anyone got something way different?

Dunyain - doon-Yain  (yain - like 'chain' but with a 'y')
Aioni - Ay-on-ee  (like Ion [charged particle] with a y)
Kian - Cain (like Cain and Able from the bible)
Dagliash - dag-lee-osh
Momemn - mo-mem-n, or Mah-mem-en ... I'm never sure what to do with the 'mn' at the end there.
Sranc - Sir-ah-nk  (though 'sir' is clipped, barey any 'i' sound).


I'll post more as I get to them, in case some kind verbal discussion ever ensues.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Francis Buck on January 23, 2014, 09:39:47 pm
Not particularly comfortable with these phonetic spelling things, but this is my best approximation. Anyone got something way different?

Dunyain - doon-Yain  (yain - like 'chain' but with a 'y')
Aioni - Ay-on-ee  (like Ion [charged particle] with a y)
Kian - Cain (like Cain and Able from the bible)
Dagliash - dag-lee-osh
Momemn - mo-mem-n, or Mah-mem-en ... I'm never sure what to do with the 'mn' at the end there.
Sranc - Sir-ah-nk  (though 'sir' is clipped, barey any 'i' sound).

I'll post more as I get to them, in case some kind verbal discussion ever ensues.

Dunyain, Dagliash, and Momemn are the same for me.

Aion is actually Ainon, but otherwise I agree.

Kian is Kee-ahn for me.

I always pronounced Sranc as if it rhymed with tank, but your way of saying it sounds way cooler so I'm officially stealing it.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Wilshire on January 23, 2014, 10:23:09 pm
Dunyain always sounds odd in my head but thats the best I came up with, I'm glad you agree.

btw which Momemn? There were two options :P
Aion is actually Ainon, but otherwise I agree.
My memory is so feeble... Guess I was thinking of the mmorpg called Aion, woops.
Kian is Kee-ahn for me.
I figured that one would be different for some. Probably makes mores sense that way.
I always pronounced Sranc as if it rhymed with tank, but your way of saying it sounds way cooler so I'm officially stealing it.
You're welcome :)
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Francis Buck on January 23, 2014, 10:35:46 pm
Ah, I meant the first one for Momemn. And yeah, Dunyain isn't really a word that rolls off the tongue for me, but that is how it's pronounced according the guide (not that it matters in the end, even Bakker doesn't pronounce the damn names right),
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Duskweaver on January 23, 2014, 10:44:53 pm
Cnaiur Urs Skiotha - 'naɪər 'ɜrz ski'oʊθə
Scylvendi - skɪl'vɛndi
Anasurimbor - 'ænæ'sœrɪmbɔr
Inchoroi - 'ɪnkɒrɔɪ
Cishaurim - kɪʃ'aʊərɪm
Cujara Cinmoi - ku'xɑrə 'kɪnmɔɪ
Dunyain - 'dʊnjaɪn
Ainon - 'aɪnɒn
Kian - 'kaɪæn
Dagliash - 'dæglij'æʃ
Momemn - 'moʊməm
Sranc - 'sræŋk
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Wilshire on January 23, 2014, 10:46:47 pm
I appreciate that, but I'm going to be real honest with you, that is not the slightest bit helpful  :)
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Duskweaver on January 23, 2014, 10:50:29 pm
And yet, it's the only way to avoid ambiguity. The IPA isn't that hard to learn, honestly, guys. :D
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Madness on January 24, 2014, 12:59:52 pm
Nice, Duskweaver.

I wish I had practiced my phonetic transcription more so I could do it with the ease which you are capable of (I will amend this in the future). I'll try for full transcriptions as I take breaks from studying for next weeks midterms.

However, in the moment:

- ʃɪʃ to begin Cishaurim
- 's to begin Cinmoi
- I might be losing the rules of transcript in memory but could we drop the ʊ entirely in Dunyain?
- I like your Sranc but I think I'd go n rather than ŋ.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Duskweaver on January 24, 2014, 04:30:39 pm
- ʃɪʃ to begin Cishaurim
Sure does sound snaky that way, but I just like crunchy /k/ sounds. Cememketri, Cingulat and Cironj are the only Bakkerian names where I make the initial 'c' soft. (Well, there's also Cmiral, where I pronounce it as /ts/, after the Czech composer).

Quote
I might be losing the rules of transcript in memory but could we drop the ʊ entirely in Dunyain?
I don't see how. AFAIK, there's no real world language where a circumflex makes its vowel silent (usually it either lengthens it or marks the stressed syllable, or both), and I think you need some vowel sound between /d/ and /n/.

Quote
- I like your Sranc but I think I'd go n rather than ŋ.
I can't make my mouth do that comfortably. :-\

To be fair, that's probably something that gets said a lot around sranc, or at least it would if the muffled screaming didn't get in the way.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Madness on January 24, 2014, 04:56:47 pm
- ʃɪʃ to begin Cishaurim
Sure does sound snaky that way, but I just like crunchy /k/ sounds. Cememketri, Cingulat and Cironj are the only Bakkerian names where I make the initial 'c' soft. (Well, there's also Cmiral, where I pronounce it as /ts/, after the Czech composer).


Lol - Cingulat is the only one of those three where I would use /s/ instead of /k/ ;).

Quote
I might be losing the rules of transcript in memory but could we drop the ʊ entirely in Dunyain?
I don't see how. AFAIK, there's no real world language where a circumflex makes its vowel silent (usually it either lengthens it or marks the stressed syllable, or both), and I think you need some vowel sound between /d/ and /n/.

That actually has been my one amateur criticism of Bakker's linguistic conventions is that I don't think he understood how accentuation/inflection works linguistically (then again, neither do I apparently).

Well then, I would agree with your /ʊ/ (I say Dun like Done) - though as an alternative I believe Wilshire was offering /u:/ instead, like Dune (if I have that right).

Quote
- I like your Sranc but I think I'd go n rather than ŋ.
I can't make my mouth do that comfortably. :-\

To be fair, that's probably something that gets said a lot around sranc, or at least it would if the muffled screaming didn't get in the way.

Lmao. Definitely some glottal stoppage there ;). I thought your Sranc was much more difficult than mine :P. I'm thinking /n/ makes it sound like "Srank" (tank, as FB highlighted above), whereas you seem to have gone "Srankh" (like ankh or francophone).
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Duskweaver on January 24, 2014, 10:58:35 pm
Well then, I would agree with your /ʊ/ (I say Dun like Done) - though as an alternative I believe Wilshire was offering /u:/ instead, like Dune (if I have that right).
The 'uh' sound in 'done' (or 'run' or 'mud') is /ʌ/.
/ʊ/ is the 'oo' in 'hook' or 'foot' or 'full'.
You're correct that the 'ooh' sound in 'dune' is /u:/.

Quote
I'm thinking /n/ makes it sound like "Srank" (tank, as FB highlighted above), whereas you seem to have gone "Srankh" (like ankh or francophone).
No. 'Tank' is /tæŋk/ and 'ankh' is just the same without the /t/. I'm pretty sure /nk/ is not a sound that actually exists in English.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Wilshire on January 25, 2014, 02:16:22 am
And yet, it's the only way to avoid ambiguity. The IPA isn't that hard to learn, honestly, guys. :D

Remember when this was said?  I still don't believe you, and I've got the last several comments of confusion as for the why :)
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Duskweaver on January 25, 2014, 09:37:26 am
Remember when this was said?  I still don't believe you, and I've got the last several comments of confusion as for the why :)
The confusion was not caused by any ambiguity in the IPA. It was caused by Madness not correctly remembering it.

The IPA doesn't just say "this sound should sort of rhyme with that sound" or "it's sort of how you say [word] but oh wait you're from [country] so forget that because you people pronounce that completely differently". Each symbol precisely defines what you do with your mouth, lips and tongue to make the sound. Unless one of us is not a human or has some serious deformation of those parts of the anatomy, you and I can follow the IPA rules and pronounce the same symbols exactly the same way, even if we don't share a language. Well, in theory, anyway. Sounds that just plain don't exist in one's native tongue are still hard to get right, but at least you'd know you weren't getting it right.

If someone shows you a complex but valid mathematical proof and you don't understand it, that doesn't mean the proof (or mathematics itself) is wrong or ambiguous.

To put it another way, Gnosis beats Anagogis. :D

Also "the only way to avoid ambiguity" does not mean it's foolproof. Perhaps I should have said "the only way to have any chance of avoiding ambiguity". But that just demonstrates how imprecise the English language is. Quod errat fornicabitur demonstrandum. :P

Confucius was really onto something with that whole Rectification of Names thing...
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Madness on January 25, 2014, 02:54:32 pm
Remember when this was said?  I still don't believe you, and I've got the last several comments of confusion as for the why :)
The confusion was not caused by any ambiguity in the IPA. It was caused by Madness not correctly remembering it.

This 100%. I should have just gotten my textbook from the stack (which I had pulled out of a box not three weeks ago for this exact thread) and made sure. I'm actually surprised my memory of that class is so good considering that it was during probably the worst year of my life - props to the Professor, she is fantastic!

The IPA doesn't just say "this sound should sort of rhyme with that sound" or "it's sort of how you say [word] but oh wait you're from [country] so forget that because you people pronounce that completely differently". Each symbol precisely defines what you do with your mouth, lips and tongue to make the sound. Unless one of us is not a human or has some serious deformation of those parts of the anatomy, you and I can follow the IPA rules and pronounce the same symbols exactly the same way, even if we don't share a language. Well, in theory, anyway. Sounds that just plain don't exist in one's native tongue are still hard to get right, but at least you'd know you weren't getting it right.

In other words, the phonetic alphabet distinguishes the different possible neuro-muscular coordinations the human mouth/throat can accomplish by which air can be moved through to make distinct sounds. Linguistics is actually a strange way to grok language - it's probably my first academic love and had I not already had my possible lifetime research mapped out before I ever thought about school, I might have pursued cognitive-linguistics through psychology (the institution I've started my academic at doesn't have a linguistics major, either :P).

Then there's also some theory that generalizes across all possible language rules - it works, insofar as it does, which is pretty much enough to decipher everything back to some possible proto-languages.

I always dreamed of a language that used all possible phonemes.

Anyhow - give me some time, next couple months are busy for me, but I will endeavour to correct and expand my knowledge.

Also "the only way to avoid ambiguity" does not mean it's foolproof. Perhaps I should have said "the only way to have any chance of avoiding ambiguity". But that just demonstrates how imprecise the English language is. Quod errat fornicabitur demonstrandum. :P

Confucius was really onto something with that whole Rectification of Names thing...

Duskweaver, you ever try your mind at Lojban or Ithkuil?

I definitely think there's something to the broad theoretical notions of his Rectification but I think his specifics were still bound by time and place ;).
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Madness on March 10, 2014, 12:34:54 pm
Curethan linked a thread in the pronunciation thread that ended up in News/Announcements.

Just made Cnaiur's quote tag into a link. Too much to import. But Cniaur and carlsfini break it down phonetically (or try to). Not bad. Practicing my linguistics and logic are on the list for this summer.

Quote from: Cnaiur, Aug 2008 (http://forum.three-seas.com/topics/164)
It would be fantastic if Scott could produce some audio to properly pronounce the names and words used in his books. He does provide some basic examples we can work with, but its not good enough! I can only suspect Scott wants us to use our own methods of pronunciations, based on our own language backgrounds.
If I had something of mine published and released, and fans came up to me pronouncing all the names and words wrong, I would get seriously annoyed! I would find myself wanting to correct them each and every time. A time-waster! Hide, Scott, hide! If I ever meet you I will maul you down Kellhus closed-fist style for proper pronunciations. <!-- s:mrgreen: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mrgreen.gif" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green" /><!-- s:mrgreen: -->

Anyways...

Based on his examples and my language background these are some of the rules I use, and how I pronounce some of the names:


û = long u sound.

au = separate into 2 syllables, like ah-oo (oo like moon and spoon)

ai = long i sound

ei = long a sound

oi = oy (boy, toy)

y = (the tricky one) if its paired with a vowel, then its a long e sound (like meal, reel), and its also its own syllable. The vowel its paired with gets pronounced separately. If its alone in-between consonants its a short i sound (skill, shit, pick). If it precedes paired vowels or is in-between vowels, it is its own consonant sound (yes, yellow)

j = the j sound I use no traditional English method. Its either a consonant 'y' sound, or a revving j sound. Say shhhhhhh as in shut-up. Now rev that shhhh HARD, like water flowing aggresively, like a car revving HARD. (I'll use jjj to capture that revving j sound). I suspect its also used as a long e sound in certain words, like Cironj. (See-ron-nee?)

i = I mainly turn it into a long e sound, with some exceptions.


Dûnyain = Dune-yen
Gilcûnya = Gill-coon-nee-ah
Mog-Pharau = Mog Fah-ra-oo
Paro Inrau = Pa-row In-ra-oo ('pa' as in ma and pa, the short a sound. The same with 'ra')
(Imperial) Saik = Sike (although I sometimes wonder if its 'sake' - They are there for the Imperial's sake. <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->)
Mysunsai = Me-sun-sigh
Isûphiryas = Ee-sue-fee-ree-us
Scylvendi = skill-ven-dee
Inchoroi = Een-kor-roy
Cûnuroi = Koo-nuh-roy ('nuh' like mud, nothing/nuh-thing, the short u sound)
Aujic = Ah-oo-jjj-ick
Ainoni = Eye-non-nee
Sheyic = Shay-yick
Kyranean = Kee-ra-nee-en ('en' is like saying the letter 'n')
Kyraneas = Kee-ra-nee-es ('es' is like saying the letter 's')
Kûniüric = Koo-nee-yur-rick
Kûniüri = Koo-nee-yur-ee
Ikurei = Ee-kur-ray
Istriya = Ee-stree-yah
Xerius = Zee-ree-us (like serious, as he always is <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> )
Conphas = Conf-es ('es' is like saying the letter 's')
Nansur = Nan-sir ('sir' like purr)
Skeaös = Skay-yose
Seökti = Say-yoke-tee
Mallahet = pronounced as its spelled; Mal-la-het
Conriya = Con-ree-yah
Nersei Proyas = Nair-say Proy-es
Krijates Ximenus = Kree-yaht-es Zee-men-us ('yaht' pronounced like the boat 'yacht')
Tydonni = Tie Domi <!-- s:mrgreen: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mrgreen.gif" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green" /><!-- s:mrgreen: --> Otherwise, Ti-don-nee ('ti' like tit)


Now here are ones I'm really at a loss:

Cironj = See-ron-nee?
Jiünati = jjj-ee-you-na-tee? Or is that j silent? Ee-you-na-tee

Eärwa = If it wasn't for that umlaut ä I would pronounce it as Ah-yar-wah ('yar' like yard without the d)
Eänna = If it wasn't for that umlaut ä I would pronounce it as Ah-yah-nah
Thoti Eännorean = Thot-ee Ah-yah-nor-ree-en
Eleäzaras = El-ah-yah-zar-as ('zar' like star)

I think that Eä would sound as ay, the long a sound, or more like Eh! like Canadians say eh? Eh? Eh!-rrr-wah??? Eh!-nnn-nah???
Or, long e, then the eh! sound. Like Ee-eh! E. Eh! Sports. Ee-ehrr-wah? Ee-ehn-nah?


Have any of you heard Scott pronounce Eärwa?

I also would like to check out some of your pronunciations to these words. Perhaps we could build a pronunciation lexicon. Even move it over to that wiki (good idea) someone started up. Until Scott ever decides to do audio recordings.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Aural on March 10, 2014, 02:28:07 pm
Quote
au = separate into 2 syllables, like ah-oo (oo like moon and spoon)

ai = long i sound

You're not making a distinction between 'au' and 'aü'? The first one I think is pronounced 'oh' (as in Aurang = oh-rang), the second is as you've highlighted, although I can't think of any word from the books that applies now.

'ai' is also pronounced the same as air, unless there is a diaeresis on the i. So 'Imperial Sake', 'my-sun-say', and 'ai-no-nigh'.

That's as far as I know. There might be exceptions though.

Some other words that I disagree with the pronunciation of (although I'm not sure why, just sounds better to me)

Kyranean = Kigh-ray-ni-en

Kûniüric = Koo-nigh-yoo-rick (koo with a short sound)

Ikurei = eye-koo-rey

Istriya = Es-trigh-yah

Xerius = Ze-righ-us

Conriya = Con-righ-yah

Xinemus = Zigh-nee-mus

Eärwa = eh-yar-wah

Eänna = eh-yah-nah

The 'û' = 'moon' sounds weird to me in every words except Psûkhe. That's why I pronounce Dûnyain with a short u sound, not a long one, the same with Isûphiryas regardless of what the book says.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Madness on March 10, 2014, 11:26:11 pm
Unfortunately, I don't think Cnaiur is going to respond here :(.

The link takes you to a ZTS thread, even though Curethan linked it here on SA in another thread - somehow a pronunciation thread ended up in News/Announcements... my guess is inattention/inaction on my part.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Bogobor on November 08, 2014, 04:45:31 pm
Hi everyone.
Be interesting to know how do you pronounce these words:
Zsoronga
Csokis
Cironj
jnan
Ansacer ab Salajka
Pujkar
Ej’ulkiyah
qurraj
Kepfet ab Tanaj
Athjeäri
kjineta
Cinganjehoi ab Sakjal
Hasjinnet ab Skauras
Swarjuka
Fan’oukarji
Meärji
benjuka
elju
Cuäxaji
Cojirani ab Houk
Ghoset
Kutigha
Aghurzoi
Manghaput
Moënghus
Angka
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: mrganondorf on November 08, 2014, 08:48:34 pm
Welcome Bogobor!  I'll try to fonetykalee spell out some of these, the way i hear them in my head...

Zsoronga - zuh-suh-RON-guh
Csokis - SOK-is
Cironj - sih-RON-jeh
jnan - juh-NAN
Athjeari - ath-GEE-air-ee
kjineta - ki-jih-NET-ah
Cinganjehoi - king-GAHN-jeh-hoi
elju - EL-joo
Moenghus - MOE-eng-ghus
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Wilshire on November 10, 2014, 07:19:12 pm
MG I like you pronunciation guide :)
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Bogobor on November 12, 2014, 11:03:41 am
My thoughts about pronunciation:

Y /i/, /j/, /[ʲ/, /ʲj/
J /j/, /[ʲ/, /ʲj/
Q /kʷ/
C = K /k/
CC = KK = CK = KC /kː/
CH = KH /x/
H /h/
T /t/
TH /θ/
TT /tː/
P /p/
PH = F /f/
PP /pː/

Qûya /kʷuːja/
Cironj /kironʲ/ or /kiroɲ/
Nenciphon /nenkifon/
Sarcellus /sarkelːus/
Chiki /xiki/ or /çiki/
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Garet Jax on November 12, 2014, 02:08:21 pm
My thoughts about pronunciation:

Y /i/, /j/, /[ʲ/, /ʲj/
J /j/, /[ʲ/, /ʲj/
Q /kʷ/
C = K /k/
CC = KK = CK = KC /kː/
CH = KH /x/
H /h/
T /t/
TH /θ/
TT /tː/
P /p/
PH = F /f/
PP /pː/

Qûya /kʷuːja/
Cironj /kironʲ/ or /kiroɲ/
Nenciphon /nenkifon/
Sarcellus /sarkelːus/
Chiki /xiki/ or /çiki/

We must get you on a tSA Cast, Bogobor.  We need to hear these.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Wilshire on November 12, 2014, 02:18:17 pm
My thoughts about pronunciation:

Y /i/, /j/, /[ʲ/, /ʲj/
J /j/, /[ʲ/, /ʲj/
Q /kʷ/
C = K /k/
CC = KK = CK = KC /kː/
CH = KH /x/
H /h/
T /t/
TH /θ/
TT /tː/
P /p/
PH = F /f/
PP /pː/

Qûya /kʷuːja/
Cironj /kironʲ/ or /kiroɲ/
Nenciphon /nenkifon/
Sarcellus /sarkelːus/
Chiki /xiki/ or /çiki/
It appears you and Triskele have the same, more technical, approach, which I find completely incomprehensible :P
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: mrganondorf on November 16, 2014, 08:09:50 pm
My thoughts about pronunciation:

Y /i/, /j/, /[ʲ/, /ʲj/
J /j/, /[ʲ/, /ʲj/
Q /kʷ/
C = K /k/
CC = KK = CK = KC /kː/
CH = KH /x/
H /h/
T /t/
TH /θ/
TT /tː/
P /p/
PH = F /f/
PP /pː/

Qûya /kʷuːja/
Cironj /kironʲ/ or /kiroɲ/
Nenciphon /nenkifon/
Sarcellus /sarkelːus/
Chiki /xiki/ or /çiki/

woah, this looks official!  consider my version the hick alternative.  should have warned y'all ima from arkansas :P
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Wilshire on November 18, 2014, 03:34:45 pm
I like the redneck version!
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: mrganondorf on December 11, 2014, 02:34:13 pm
I like the redneck version!

as a someone teaching philosophy, it's embarrassing to discuss Augustine or Neitzsche and be condemned to say "wheel" when what i mean is "will"  :(
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Wilshire on December 15, 2014, 09:46:27 pm
Language is an imprecise art. You shouldn't be embarrassed. Truly what is embarrassing is being a a university and there being people who do not recognize that people come from different places/backgrounds and pronunciation varies largely.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: mrganondorf on December 18, 2014, 10:11:12 am
Language is an imprecise art. You shouldn't be embarrassed. Truly what is embarrassing is being a a university and there being people who do not recognize that people come from different places/backgrounds and pronunciation varies largely.

i wheel remembar!  :P
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on December 18, 2014, 07:00:10 pm
Hmm. Imperial "Sike"  terse and monosyllabic sounds kind of silly to me.  I add a sorta... glottal stop I guess.  Imperial Sa'ik with two syllables sounds much better to me. :-[

 I've always pronounced Cishaurim with a hard k.  I figue; if they are the tribe of the Indara-Kishauri then Kishauri is the Kiannic root of Cishaurim.  Whatever,  I know nothing about Kianni/Sheyic linguistic translation conventions.  :P  So it may be complete bunk.

I say Sarcellus with a soft s.  Sarsellus(sic).  In all my study of Roman history and interacting with the academia therein, I've never heard Marcus Claudius Marcellus pronounced; "Markellus."

It's only the c(s) k(s) and s(s) that really screw me up with this series.  I can usually wrap my mouth around everything else.

Although for fuck's sake.  The capital of Conriya. Aöknyssus.  What.  I just skip right over it every time.  I have no idea.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Wilshire on December 19, 2014, 03:51:29 pm
Ay-oh-kan-ay-sus ... or something like that.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Garet Jax on December 19, 2014, 04:05:32 pm
Ay-oh-kan-ay-sus ... or something like that.

Ay-yoke-khan-nis-eous?
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Francis Buck on December 19, 2014, 06:55:53 pm
I say Ay-oak-nissus.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Wilshire on December 19, 2014, 07:13:16 pm
I say Ay-oak-nissus.
Thats pretty close to what I was suggesting, though I added an imaginary 'a' between kn. This is better.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: mrganondorf on December 22, 2014, 09:07:26 pm
A-town
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Jonny_Anonymous on May 01, 2017, 06:49:40 pm
This is a super old thread but anyway... I'm Scottish so whenever there is a word that has "ch" in the middle or end, I pronounce it in the same way we pronounce loch. It's not really something I can spell out but it's a slightly guttural burr. So when I read Achamian I say it as Ach (kind of like "och" but with an a) amy-in.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: BeardFisher-King on May 01, 2017, 08:23:43 pm
This is a super old thread but anyway... I'm Scottish so whenever there is a word that has "ch" in the middle or end, I pronounce it in the same way we pronounce loch. It's not really something I can spell out but it's a slightly guttural burr. So when I read Achamian I say it as Ach (kind of like "och" but with an a) amy-in.
Kinda like you're hacking up some phlegm..... ;)
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Jonny_Anonymous on May 01, 2017, 08:30:11 pm
This is a super old thread but anyway... I'm Scottish so whenever there is a word that has "ch" in the middle or end, I pronounce it in the same way we pronounce loch. It's not really something I can spell out but it's a slightly guttural burr. So when I read Achamian I say it as Ach (kind of like "och" but with an a) amy-in.
Kinda like you're hacking up some phlegm..... ;)

Pretty much yeah  :P
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on July 04, 2017, 03:45:21 pm
It's always so interesting to me to think how one's first language shapes the way they pronounce names of fictional places/characters/etc. (likely more often in fantasy and science fiction genres because those tend to be names that aren't close to the ones you would be familiar with in real life).
I've realized that in my head, I keep "pronouncing", for instance, an "-us" at the end of a name as I would in Portuguese and not English (more of an "oos" sound). Other example - Cs tend to be "heard" as soft Cs and not more like Ks, if that makes any sense. Basically, I'm subconsciously applying Portuguese rules of phonetics to names (though it's not a 100% thing).
"Mimara" is an interesting name to me because there is a word in Portuguese which is spelled exactly the same, so that's how I pronounce it ("Mee-mah-ruh" or close enough, though I know there are plenty of people who pronounce it like that and are native English speakers).
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Wilshire on July 05, 2017, 01:33:52 pm
Most of that lines up with how I pronounce things, Mimara a bit off though. Perhaps, then, equally interesting that our different biases lead to similar outcomes as well.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: H on July 05, 2017, 01:58:41 pm
I am not sure if there has every really been research on this, but I would imagine that it is plausible that the language you start with informs a lot of how you will think, considering we think in language and formalize things through it.

I do, however, only give Mimara only two syllables though...
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Wilshire on July 05, 2017, 02:12:01 pm
I am not sure if there has every really been research on this, but I would imagine that it is plausible that the language you start with informs a lot of how you will think, considering we think in language and formalize things through it.
Actually I think there has been quite a bit. I once read an article about how language affects are innate ability to sense direction. Some tribes - whos language uses cardinal direction referances for things instead of words like left or right - an unearringly find north/south and east/west when located inside an unfamiliar room without any indications of direction around them.
I'm sure there are plenty more studies out there. Conclusion - the words you know and use change how the world around you is seen and how it interacts with you.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: TLEILAXU on July 09, 2017, 02:15:27 am
Even though I know it's wrong according to the pronunciation guide, in my head I often pronounce Cnaiür with a hard K ie. Knaiur. I also sometimes pronounce words with a y as ü, eg. Skülvendi instead of Skillvendi.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Wilshire on November 09, 2017, 07:26:23 pm
Cilcûliccas

Any takers on that one?
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: TLEILAXU on November 09, 2017, 08:56:46 pm
Kilkulikkas
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: H on November 09, 2017, 09:02:51 pm
Still think Sil-cool-ickus is the best flowing option.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on November 09, 2017, 09:51:57 pm
For me, for Nonmen/Ihrimsu stuff anyway, any "c" that precedes an "i" is a hissing sibilant and any "c" that precedes any other vowel is a hard consonant.

So it's Sil-kool-e-kas.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Yellow on November 09, 2017, 09:58:32 pm
I'm with Tleilaxuckmsdfes. I pronounce most of Bakker's "C" s as "K". Most of the ancient north language seems to be derived from the Nonman tongue, and Celmomas is a hard C. Also, Cishaurim is derived from Kishauri (sp?) so I think it usually applies. Not in all cases though, e.g.Cnauir,which is a silent C.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Wilshire on November 10, 2017, 01:28:09 pm
So for Cilcûliccas we got:

Kilkulikkas (all hard K sounds, 'as' at the end)
Sil-cool-ickus (S and K, 'us' at the end)
Sil-kool-e-kas (S and k, 'as' at the end)

Sil-kool-i-kus might be what I settle on. Granted, Kil- also makes it sound more badass ;), so I may have to waffle on that still. Thanks all!


Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: TaoHorror on November 10, 2017, 02:41:05 pm
When I read the series, I pronounced it as Sil-kool-e-kas in my head, didn't consider other ways to pronounce it. The Kil sound is very cool, though.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: TLEILAXU on November 10, 2017, 05:06:42 pm
So for Cilcûliccas we got:

Kilkulikkas (all hard K sounds, 'as' at the end)
Sil-cool-ickus (S and K, 'us' at the end)
Sil-kool-e-kas (S and k, 'as' at the end)

Sil-kool-i-kus might be what I settle on. Granted, Kil- also makes it sound more badass ;), so I may have to waffle on that still. Thanks all!
I pronounce the a as the a in taco fwiw.
I think the canon pronunciation might be all k's (due to the Ku'jara Kinmoi mention in the glossary) for nonmen names, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Yellow on November 10, 2017, 09:30:34 pm
Definitely hard K sounds.

KIL-coo-LIH-cas.

On a related note. I realised while reading TWLW (I think) that Mog-Pharau is supposed to be pronounced Mog-Phar-OH, because he rhymed it with "woe" or somesuch, whereas I had always thought it to be Mog-Phar-OW as in "Sauron". Annoying.
Title: Re: Pronunciation
Post by: Wilshire on November 13, 2017, 05:59:18 pm
That gives with my world-view, so luckily no cognitive dissonance there for old Mog.