How many were the original Dunyain refugees?

  • 40 Replies
  • 21058 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2014, 07:52:32 pm »
Lol, Alia, have you not stumbled across the Herbert and Bakker thread?
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Alia

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Of The Knife
  • Posts: 249
    • View Profile
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2014, 08:00:45 pm »
I did, only haven't time to read it whole so far.
The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2014, 01:28:35 pm »
Oh well. I look forward to any additional commentary you might have, whenever you read it.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2014, 03:47:10 pm »
In an interview Bakker mentioned that Kellhus is/was some kind of prodigy child, so I pretty much extend that to him being the Kwisatz Haderach.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2014, 04:51:00 pm »
I should really add my own commentary to Herbert/Bakker but...

Associating Kellhus with the Kwisatz Haderach suggests to me that the Dunyain were expecting a Kellhus... Why would they send him to Moenghus, if that wasn't part of the Pragma's overarching plans...
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2014, 04:57:57 pm »
Either it was part of the plan, or Kellhus was a generation early ;) and the Pragma didn't realize what they were setting loose.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

mrganondorf

  • *
  • The Mouth of Bakker Fans
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Nurse Leweth
  • Posts: 2002
  • PSUKHE ALL THE THINGS!
    • View Profile
    • R. Scott Bakker Fans (on Twitter)
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2014, 01:13:56 am »
I don't know at what point this kind of thing just becomes a "there were some people" thing.  I know Bakker thought out Earwa really really really well, but maybe he just imagined a vague breeding population and that was it?

That nonman blood is involved is great--would love to see that be part of the reveal.

As far as breeding stock goes, I don't know that Ishual is as closed as Kellhus has been conditioned to think.  Who knows?  Maybe the dunyain have been adding new blood from Atrithau whenever they needed it.  Maybe there are Ketyai dunyain too!  Kellhus would like us to believe that he's the first person to think up transposing.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2014, 02:22:11 am »
I don't know at what point this kind of thing just becomes a "there were some people" thing.  I know Bakker thought out Earwa really really really well, but maybe he just imagined a vague breeding population and that was it?

This is the explanation that I find most likely. Like I said in my first post, I didn't have internet for 2 weeks and I was bored :)
One of the other conditions of possibility.

locke

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
    • View Profile
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2014, 07:30:24 am »
there are more questions to Ishual than just breeding stock.  Carrying capacity of the valley, how do they hide agriculture from aerial observation, do they have aquaculture as well, what about livestock?  Where do they get the animal fat to make their seeming infinite supply of candles?    they clearly don't hunt, which is bizarre (they're simply too tall and too strong to be vegetarians). why have they maintained smiths and iron/steel working knowledge?  Do they also mine ore? How do they make clothes? Even maintaining a self sufficient community of 1000 is tricky and involves an enormous variety of specialization and skill sets in just providing basic necessities.  I presume that since Non Man mansions are so ginormous that beneath the Thousand Thousand Halls is the actual non man mansion, and since non man mansions were able to sustain subterranean communities of vast scales, there must be some ways of aqua culture, agriculture and animal husbandry etc that can be done deep in the bowels of the earth.  and it's down there that Ishual really is, all unbeknowst to Kellhus because he never thought about where his sword came from, where his clothes came from, where his food came from etc.  He was your typical privileged git, totally ignorant of everything that provides for his existence, all those come before him. ;)

Callan S.

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Warrior-Profit
  • Posts: 671
    • View Profile
    • Philosopher Gamer
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2014, 09:37:20 am »
I've heard investigations into human genetics have suggested we were down to a near extinction level of only two thousand individuals in the distant past.

So were all pretty much inbred right now, (distant) cous!

Alia

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Of The Knife
  • Posts: 249
    • View Profile
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2014, 09:51:01 am »
A very interesting point, locke.
The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2014, 02:19:20 pm »
there are more questions to Ishual than just breeding stock.  Carrying capacity of the valley, how do they hide agriculture from aerial observation, do they have aquaculture as well, what about livestock?  Where do they get the animal fat to make their seeming infinite supply of candles?    they clearly don't hunt, which is bizarre (they're simply too tall and too strong to be vegetarians). why have they maintained smiths and iron/steel working knowledge?  Do they also mine ore? How do they make clothes? Even maintaining a self sufficient community of 1000 is tricky and involves an enormous variety of specialization and skill sets in just providing basic necessities.  I presume that since Non Man mansions are so ginormous that beneath the Thousand Thousand Halls is the actual non man mansion, and since non man mansions were able to sustain subterranean communities of vast scales, there must be some ways of aqua culture, agriculture and animal husbandry etc that can be done deep in the bowels of the earth.  and it's down there that Ishual really is, all unbeknowst to Kellhus because he never thought about where his sword came from, where his clothes came from, where his food came from etc.  He was your typical privileged git, totally ignorant of everything that provides for his existence, all those come before him. ;)

All very true. Ishual must have been much more than a Castle on the side of a Mountain. They might not have had much experience with metal working, since who knows what riches might remain in the bowels of a Mansion, and I doubt the lose many artifacts on expeditions south. A nonman armory might be large enough to supply the Dunyain with all their metal-worked goods for thousands of years.
The problem of food an hunting are much more important though. Maybe they just had all the 'failed' Dunyain preform all the menial tasks, and they left all the philosophizing to the brilliant?

I've heard investigations into human genetics have suggested we were down to a near extinction level of only two thousand individuals in the distant past.

So were all pretty much inbred right now, (distant) cous!
This is part of the problem I didn't really bring up (or maybe I did and forgot). There must be some critical mass of genetic data that leads to increasing diversity overtime, rather than decreasing diversity. I wish I knew what that number was, but in absence of that I was just trying to figure how to keep the Dunyain from being a bunch of autistic hill-people after a few generations.

Being 'related' to someone is a vague qualifier at best. I wish I knew what % shared genetic data qualifies individuals as 'related' such that there is a high chance of birth defects in offspring.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

mrganondorf

  • *
  • The Mouth of Bakker Fans
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Nurse Leweth
  • Posts: 2002
  • PSUKHE ALL THE THINGS!
    • View Profile
    • R. Scott Bakker Fans (on Twitter)
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2014, 11:49:30 pm »
Some of those recent dunyain failures could probably put Maithanet to shame.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2014, 06:51:45 pm »
Where do they get the animal fat to make their seeming infinite supply of candles?

Great questions, lockesnow, but didn't we decide that the candles in the Unmasking Room were sorcerous?

As always, love your undermining Kellhus' perspective.

A nonman armory might be large enough to supply the Dunyain with all their metal-worked goods for thousands of years.

Sweet.

The problem of food an hunting are much more important though. Maybe they just had all the 'failed' Dunyain preform all the menial tasks, and they left all the philosophizing to the brilliant?

Again, this fits right into my Ishual is the City from the Republic analogy.

Overall, thoughts on the Thousand Thousand Halls. I've always thought it was a Mansion or at least an extension of Ishterebinth? A friend of mine is adamant that the Dunyain built the Thousand Thousand Halls.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2014, 07:11:10 pm »
Difficult to say either way. The problem with the Mansion theory is that they would have needed to map it out, in its entirety, before they were capable of using it as their little training maze. If it is anything liek Cil'Aujas, it would have been quite some time before they where able to map and then modify it to suit their needs.

Though they could have continued to use it for centuries unchanged. To account for increased intelligence, they could have tested the children at younger and younger ages, and made rules like 'no lights in the labyrinth' to up the difficulty.

Either theory is plausible, but I want it to be a Mansion.
One of the other conditions of possibility.