[TUC SPOILERS] Thoughts about the overall story, ending etc

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Hiro

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« Reply #120 on: July 11, 2017, 09:49:09 am »


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I think it's wishful thinking to want Kellhus to still be in control. For the series to be a "bad guys win!" inversion Bakker always wanted to write, the uber-mensch farmboy has to fail. Kellhus is the uber mensch farmboy. he fails.

Because this is such a PROFOUND violation of narrative norms, the entire internet is trying to reassert Kellhus to his rightful place of mastery and victory that all uber-mensch farmboys are always already entitled to.  Readership is CONDITIONED to expect that violations of norms are actually a reassertion of those norms, from a certain point of view. I'm saying Kellhus has failed, and he is supper in the outside. All his worldly power, and mastery, and planning were all for naught, they just amplified the degree of his failure.

What is this entire narrative without Kellhus in control?

As for the pact with the pit. Why would such a bargain ever be enforced.


Solid points on the problems of expectations. To me, to show Kellhus is fallible is the whole point. Plus, that faith in him was completely misplaced. I would rather not have an outside-Kellhus-God-Ciphrang plot development, it is for me far less interesting than dealing with the consequences of trusting in false prophets.

Mystery denotes darkness

MisterGuyMan

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« Reply #121 on: July 11, 2017, 10:12:29 am »
I was thinking the same thing. I just have a problem wondering how Kellhus planned on dying or what have you if Kel doesn't pop up. What I mean, he defeats the Consult, carapice destroyed, then what? Because, I'm pretty sure Kel wasn't part of the plan.
My current theory is that Outside Kellhus conditioned the ground to get mortal Kellhus salted to complete the paradox.  Kellhus is still seen speaking with a voice he doesnt know so that's at lease one agency unaccounted since he'd know Ajokli.  So Kellhus was tricked by his future self because he obviously would have no reason to believe a voice telling him to salt himself.  I just believe that if we assume Kellhus is a Ciphrang, which seems a safe bet, that it's axiomatic for him to start doing what he does in the Outside since... that's what he does and he can't *NOT* do it.  Now he can do it in a place where time doesn't exist and he'd actually be a Ciphrang or even God since the first page of the first book.

Kelmomas has really been the wildcard the entire series, alternatively saving and salting Kellhus.  So who's Sammi supposed to be?  If we follow the obvious narrative it can't be Ajokli since the gods are blind to him.  The only one we know that is stated to speak with the No-God is Kellhus.

Wilshire

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« Reply #122 on: July 11, 2017, 01:25:15 pm »
since he'd know Ajokli. 
Why? If he doesn't know who the voice is, why isn't it more likely that its Ajokli?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 01:28:14 pm by Wilshire »
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Walter

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« Reply #123 on: July 11, 2017, 01:29:55 pm »
Why can't it just be Sammi?

Wilshire

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« Reply #124 on: July 11, 2017, 01:40:50 pm »
Was Nau-Cayuti invisible to the Gods? Celmomas mentions seeing him, at his death, I think riding with Ajokli and the Gods?
He always says the god he sees is Gilgaol and that one of his sons will return to save the world... So his vision and explanation is suspect at best.

I think it's wishful thinking to want Kellhus to still be in control. For the series to be a "bad guys win!" inversion Bakker always wanted to write, the uber-mensch farmboy has to fail. Kellhus is the uber mensch farmboy. he fails.

Because this is such a PROFOUND violation of narrative norms, the entire internet is trying to reassert Kellhus to his rightful place of mastery and victory that all uber-mensch farmboys are always already entitled to.  Readership is CONDITIONED to expect that violations of norms are actually a reassertion of those norms, from a certain point of view. I'm saying Kellhus has failed, and he is supper in the outside. All his worldly power, and mastery, and planning were all for naught, they just amplified the degree of his failure.
All of this :)
Its been a long time since we've agreed on major interpretations of the text.

As for the pact with the pit. Why would such a bargain ever be enforced.
That's, as you mention later, the point, right? Kellhus thinks he's in control, but he is really nothing. He has no cards to hold in the outside. He made a deal with the Trickster God. Why would Ajokli uphold any bargain? Especially after he won?

Also, no word yet as to what the IF is. Isn't it curious that something which purportedly shows the Truth always makes people act in such a way to deliver more souls to the Outside? Hmm, endless millennia of violence for the Inchoroi, polarizing nonmen in a way that created and perpetuates eternal war on Earwa, Kellhus seeing himself as the winner causing him to be fail right at the moment where he could have ended all war in Earwa. Certainly seems tricky... Like a magic mirror that shows you only what It wants, rather than what You want. What kind of God would deliver such a device?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 01:50:28 pm by Wilshire »
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Heavenfall

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« Reply #125 on: July 11, 2017, 03:24:56 pm »

My current theory is that Outside Kellhus conditioned the ground to get mortal Kellhus salted to complete the paradox.  Kellhus is still seen speaking with a voice he doesnt know so that's at lease one agency unaccounted since he'd know Ajokli.  So Kellhus was tricked by his future self because he obviously would have no reason to believe a voice telling him to salt himself.  I just believe that if we assume Kellhus is a Ciphrang, which seems a safe bet, that it's axiomatic for him to start doing what he does in the Outside since... that's what he does and he can't *NOT* do it.  Now he can do it in a place where time doesn't exist and he'd actually be a Ciphrang or even God since the first page of the first book.

I'm loving this idea. At the end of TUC he says he is the Absolute. As far as I can tell, being the Absolute means you have no darkness that comes before to rule you. The only way that seems achievable is to be a god capable of acting throughout time. Kellhus wanted to attain the Absolute, and did so (in his mind), and that essentially means he became his own darkness that comes before. It's a pretty huge mindfuck to have Kellhus' "nemesis/benefactor" throughout the series be himself after he has reached the Absolute. I'm not sure what it means for the next series though, is Outside-Kellhus going to give a damn about the world being shut? Hasn't he already reached his final goal?


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« Reply #126 on: July 11, 2017, 03:38:38 pm »

My current theory is that Outside Kellhus conditioned the ground to get mortal Kellhus salted to complete the paradox.  Kellhus is still seen speaking with a voice he doesnt know so that's at lease one agency unaccounted since he'd know Ajokli.  So Kellhus was tricked by his future self because he obviously would have no reason to believe a voice telling him to salt himself.  I just believe that if we assume Kellhus is a Ciphrang, which seems a safe bet, that it's axiomatic for him to start doing what he does in the Outside since... that's what he does and he can't *NOT* do it.  Now he can do it in a place where time doesn't exist and he'd actually be a Ciphrang or even God since the first page of the first book.

I'm loving this idea. At the end of TUC he says he is the Absolute. As far as I can tell, being the Absolute means you have no darkness that comes before to rule you. The only way that seems achievable is to be a god capable of acting throughout time. Kellhus wanted to attain the Absolute, and did so (in his mind), and that essentially means he became his own darkness that comes before. It's a pretty huge mindfuck to have Kellhus' "nemesis/benefactor" throughout the series be himself after he has reached the Absolute. I'm not sure what it means for the next series though, is Outside-Kellhus going to give a damn about the world being shut? Hasn't he already reached his final goal?

I feel like that is Ajokli talking there though.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #127 on: July 11, 2017, 03:50:15 pm »
Right, I feel that is Ajokli too. Here's where I think Kellhus made it to the Outside and doesn't get munched by Ajokli. When Kel shows up Ajokli leaves, Kellhus gets salted and onto the Outside. So, Ajokli feels duped, and well could be. Maybe, just maybe Kel was part of Kellhus's plan because he knew the nature of Ajokli and wouldn't trust the pact to be upheld. Shitty thing here is, the No-God walked. The Outside is not shut yet though, and thats very important. Kellhus can still take dominion on the Outside and also aid humans in destroying the No-God. Since what time is on the Outside, Kellhus has the ability to look for the Heron-Spear and deliver to Akka/Crabicus/Baby Akka. In my mind we're not done with Kellhus, I in no way felt that that Ajokli got his soul. And, I like the idea someone put forth that he came back to inhabit Cnaüir because he can't find Kellhus on the Outside, brilliant there.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #128 on: July 11, 2017, 03:52:11 pm »

My current theory is that Outside Kellhus conditioned the ground to get mortal Kellhus salted to complete the paradox.  Kellhus is still seen speaking with a voice he doesnt know so that's at lease one agency unaccounted since he'd know Ajokli.  So Kellhus was tricked by his future self because he obviously would have no reason to believe a voice telling him to salt himself.  I just believe that if we assume Kellhus is a Ciphrang, which seems a safe bet, that it's axiomatic for him to start doing what he does in the Outside since... that's what he does and he can't *NOT* do it.  Now he can do it in a place where time doesn't exist and he'd actually be a Ciphrang or even God since the first page of the first book.

I'm loving this idea. At the end of TUC he says he is the Absolute. As far as I can tell, being the Absolute means you have no darkness that comes before to rule you. The only way that seems achievable is to be a god capable of acting throughout time. Kellhus wanted to attain the Absolute, and did so (in his mind), and that essentially means he became his own darkness that comes before. It's a pretty huge mindfuck to have Kellhus' "nemesis/benefactor" throughout the series be himself after he has reached the Absolute. I'm not sure what it means for the next series though, is Outside-Kellhus going to give a damn about the world being shut? Hasn't he already reached his final goal?

I feel like that is Ajokli talking there though.

Even if all that was true, it doesn't matter. Why? Yatwer thinks she's absolute with her White-Luck, and how did that turn out? Ajokli thinks he's absolute with his plans, and how did that turn out? What makes Kellhus immune to this pitfall? Every major player so far that has thought themselves absolutely assured of victory, all the way back, has been wrong. Moenghus, Xerius, Conphas, Cnaiur, Aurang/Aurax, Cujara Cinmoi, Nil Giccas, The Consult, Titirga, Inrilatas, Maithanet, Proyas, Achamian, Esmenet, Zsoranga...

Why is Kellhus special? What makes him the one who deserves your belief? After all, he spent literally all of TGO trying to convince you (reader/proyas) that he was just a thing. Yet you still can't shake that feeling that he must be good and right  because... well because that's how stories work, damnit!

Pick anyone who was sure they were on the winning side that hasn't lost everything (or nearly) for their certainty. At the very best you could say that so far the New Dunyain Consult represent the winners in this game of 'certainty makes righteous and the most righteous win'. They survived the calamity at Ishual, they beat the Consult, usurped Aurang/Aurax, defeated Kellhus and Ajokli.
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« Reply #129 on: July 11, 2017, 04:08:11 pm »
Even if all that was true, it doesn't matter. Why? Yatwer thinks she's absolute with her White-Luck, and how did that turn out? Ajokli thinks he's absolute with his plans, and how did that turn out? What makes Kellhus immune to this pitfall? Every major player so far that has thought themselves absolutely assured of victory, all the way back, has been wrong. Moenghus, Xerius, Conphas, Cnaiur, Aurang/Aurax, Cujara Cinmoi, Nil Giccas, The Consult, Titirga, Inrilatas, Maithanet, Proyas, Achamian, Esmenet, Zsoranga...

Why is Kellhus special? What makes him the one who deserves your belief? After all, he spent literally all of TGO trying to convince you (reader/proyas) that he was just a thing. Yet you still can't shake that feeling that he must be good and right  because... well because that's how stories work, damnit!

Pick anyone who was sure they were on the winning side that hasn't lost everything (or nearly) for their certainty. At the very best you could say that so far the New Dunyain Consult represent the winners in this game of 'certainty makes righteous and the most righteous win'. They survived the calamity at Ishual, they beat the Consult, usurped Aurang/Aurax, defeated Kellhus and Ajokli.

I didn't mean it as Kellhus doesn't lose though.  I think he does.  That doesn't mean it's implausible that he had a secondary plan for the eventuality that Ajokli might collect on his end of the bargain.  Then again, it doesn't mean he actually did.

I am fine with Kellhus losing and having no recourse.  I am also fine with Kellhus having lost, but having a "back-up" plan, or his "treaty with Hell" somehow keeping him involved.

I have no idea which is more probable though.  It just depends on where Bakker wants to take the story.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Redeagl

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« Reply #130 on: July 11, 2017, 04:55:27 pm »

My current theory is that Outside Kellhus conditioned the ground to get mortal Kellhus salted to complete the paradox.  Kellhus is still seen speaking with a voice he doesnt know so that's at lease one agency unaccounted since he'd know Ajokli.  So Kellhus was tricked by his future self because he obviously would have no reason to believe a voice telling him to salt himself.  I just believe that if we assume Kellhus is a Ciphrang, which seems a safe bet, that it's axiomatic for him to start doing what he does in the Outside since... that's what he does and he can't *NOT* do it.  Now he can do it in a place where time doesn't exist and he'd actually be a Ciphrang or even God since the first page of the first book.

I'm loving this idea. At the end of TUC he says he is the Absolute. As far as I can tell, being the Absolute means you have no darkness that comes before to rule you. The only way that seems achievable is to be a god capable of acting throughout time. Kellhus wanted to attain the Absolute, and did so (in his mind), and that essentially means he became his own darkness that comes before. It's a pretty huge mindfuck to have Kellhus' "nemesis/benefactor" throughout the series be himself after he has reached the Absolute. I'm not sure what it means for the next series though, is Outside-Kellhus going to give a damn about the world being shut? Hasn't he already reached his final goal?

I feel like that is Ajokli talking there though.

Even if all that was true, it doesn't matter. Why? Yatwer thinks she's absolute with her White-Luck, and how did that turn out? Ajokli thinks he's absolute with his plans, and how did that turn out? What makes Kellhus immune to this pitfall? Every major player so far that has thought themselves absolutely assured of victory, all the way back, has been wrong. Moenghus, Xerius, Conphas, Cnaiur, Aurang/Aurax, Cujara Cinmoi, Nil Giccas, The Consult, Titirga, Inrilatas, Maithanet, Proyas, Achamian, Esmenet, Zsoranga...

Why is Kellhus special? What makes him the one who deserves your belief? After all, he spent literally all of TGO trying to convince you (reader/proyas) that he was just a thing. Yet you still can't shake that feeling that he must be good and right  because... well because that's how stories work, damnit!

Pick anyone who was sure they were on the winning side that hasn't lost everything (or nearly) for their certainty. At the very best you could say that so far the New Dunyain Consult represent the winners in this game of 'certainty makes righteous and the most righteous win'. They survived the calamity at Ishual, they beat the Consult, usurped Aurang/Aurax, defeated Kellhus and Ajokli.
This. Storytelling wise, it makes Kellhus the biggest literary red herring ever.
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

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Walter

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« Reply #131 on: July 11, 2017, 05:01:17 pm »
How bout the idea that Ajoklie and Kellhus are one and the same?

Like, the Hundred live across time, right?  And sufficiently mean souls can become Ciphrang (see Cnaiur).  So maybe Kellhus is the earthly form of Ajokli?  Like, the God-form can reach across history, has always been present, etc, but Anasurimbor Kellhus was the living soul that became him.

Wilshire

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« Reply #132 on: July 11, 2017, 05:01:33 pm »
This. Storytelling wise, it makes Kellhus the biggest literary red herring ever.
And to me that seems something like a point Bakker might try to make, insofar as my poor understanding takes me of what he's 'trying to accomplish'
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Wilshire

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« Reply #133 on: July 11, 2017, 05:03:39 pm »
How bout the idea that Ajoklie and Kellhus are one and the same?

Like, the Hundred live across time, right?  And sufficiently mean souls can become Ciphrang (see Cnaiur).  So maybe Kellhus is the earthly form of Ajokli?  Like, the God-form can reach across history, has always been present, etc, but Anasurimbor Kellhus was the living soul that became him.

I can dig it. The question of "when" is up in the air for sure. At what point did Kellhus become Ajokli's pawn.
Looking at the WLW POVs, it was only after his full possession that he realized his whole life he was the White Luck.
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Walter

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« Reply #134 on: July 11, 2017, 05:09:53 pm »
If we buy the glossary's tale of him swapping heads with the one on his hip, then the earthly 'when' of it seems to have been during the 4 weeks he studied under Iyokus.