The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: Wilshire on May 29, 2013, 02:58:31 am

Title: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on May 29, 2013, 02:58:31 am
Because I'm vain and this post stagnated, hows about I revive a piece of my speculation that wasn't argued over
Quote from: Wilshire
On kids:
This was something of a curiosity. Reading carefully (or with bias i guess) it can be seen that much more is going on than what was actually said. What was said and what was read :P

"How many children did grandfather sire?"
"Six," ...
"Were any of them like me?"
A fraction of a heartbeat.
"I have no way of knowing. He drowned them at the first sign of peculiarities."
"And you were the only one that expressed ... balance?"
"I was the only one."


At first glance, not much here. Six kids, drowned all of them cuz they where crazy. Right? Wrong! (mostly crackpot):
The six children of Moenghus. First son was Kellhus which I think most people over looked, and another was Maithanet. That leaves us with 4. I think the remaining children that he "sired" are the 4 that lived. The ones that remained un-drowned.
Look: "where any of them like me?" ... "He drowned them at the first sign of peculiarities."
If Maithanet and the other 4 never expressed signs of peculiarities, then they wouldn't have been drowned. The statement remains truth. Daddy Moe did drown all the crazies. But are those considered true sons? Or just something ... other ... something not quite human. Something not to be counted as among your tribe. A scylivendi woman who gives birth to a white child has not born a true son. Not a true kinsmen. Just something other to be discarded. So the 6 children of Moenghus are the those that remain alive.

Ah, but you say, the last two lines disprove this. He was the only one that expressed balance.
Nay I tell you. Look closer!
"And you were the only one that expressed ... balance?"
"I was the only one."
First of all, balance is not what condemned the children, it was peculiarities. Balance has been substituted here, and this may have allowed Maithanet to lie with truth. None of the remaining children where peculiar, thus left alive, but maybe none of them were balanced. Maybe they excelled in certain fields more than others. A schoolman is not balanced in the ways of combat. The sons or daughters of Moenghus may have been specialized in certain fields, while Maitha could see sorcery, could wield a sword, could speak with a silver tongue. Maybe the most balanced, but not the only one that lived.
The remaining 5 sons of Moenghus walk.


Anyone have any thoughts? Probably reading with extreme bias here but I think it sounded like a cool idea.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Cüréthañ on May 29, 2013, 06:41:36 am
Doesn't fit the world building imho.

All of Khellus' children are defective.  None command the proper dunyain aura with a fraction of Maitha's abilities.  They are all defined by character traits.

Moe was restricted in his ability to breed and rear children whereas K has had access to concubines etc and possibly had to keep Esme's kids.

I don't think Moe had the ability to succeed where Khellus failed in raising a small team of properly conditioned mini-dunyain.  With Maitha he already had much beeter success than K.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on May 29, 2013, 03:18:53 pm
Maybe the fanim or Cish souls could more readily accept the dunyain progeny?
Kellhus is somehow defective in a way that makes his children retarded/crazy?

You are probably right though, not very likely.

I still never really understood why Esmi was the one that could sire his children, and how Moe could have found someone to bare him a nearly perfect child. Doesn't make much sense to me. I'm imagining that a properly half-dunyain reared child would end up like Maitha, but untrained would end up like Kellhus' kids.

Couldn't it be that Moenghus was able to take the time to raise and train his children as well as training them to hide their emotional shortcomings from normal people? Certainly all the children that were born with several legs and arms or 10 eyes would have been drowned, but I can't see why the physically normal ones couldn't have been trained to near perfection.

30 years is a long time.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: What Came Before on May 29, 2013, 04:21:10 pm
I'm 100% on board for Meppa, second worldborn son of Moenghus.

I think we're (treading another/new topic) but something we've certainly ignored so far are any proscriptions by the Fanim against their priests (Cishaurim). Did Moenghus have to raise Maithanet (or any other children) in secrecy under threat of punishment?

I share the distinction between the trained and untrained half-Dunyain. After all, Kellhus is managing Empire - also, Maithanet cannot see the reason for Kellhus keeping Inrilatas alive, when Maithanet suggested Moenghus the Elder would have drowned Inrilatas for exhibiting his peculiarities. But ultimately Kellhus is too damned busy to train his children more than he has.

Arguably, he's trained Serwa with sorcery and Kayutas, certainly, with the Ways of Face and Limb (sp?)(I imagine Kayutas as not of the Few will be unparalled in martial combat), as those who displayed the most balance. I've suggested before that Theliopa is already basically an autistic half-Dunyain, thus requiring little training. Inrilatas was only partially trained because Kellhus thought that it would provide Inrilatas some measure of constraint.

Thirty years is so long. If Moenghus could actually see as a Cishaurim, then if he wasn't playing games in the World, he certainly must have been with the Outside - doubly ironic and suggestive when considering that Maithanet (/Meppa) cover the two great faiths.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: What Came Before on May 29, 2013, 04:28:10 pm
I felt the need to begin some new content. If I find the existing thread, I'll merge them. Sorry Wilshire ;).
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on May 29, 2013, 05:16:03 pm
If Meppa really was a secret son, what would Moe have planned for him?

A contingency plan if Kellhus failed the test at the Tree? Moe never could see past that crossroads, and the shortest path ended, once again, in a dead end. Did he sit around and wait for this last hope, knowing that it was the true shortest path? Seems unlikely.

Probably more likely that he decided for forge another trail. Moe knew that it would take a full Dunyain to tame Earwa. After all, his half Dunyain son Maitha could only manage all known practitioners of Inrithism under the guise of some meta-Shriah. If one half Dunyain could capture half the world, then why not 2 halves to make a whole? It would take more time, certainly not the shortest path, but better to have a contingency plan for the almost inevitable failure of Kellhus.

So Moe sent his fully trained son to capture the hearts of the Three Seas, and then set out to find a suitable host for his next son. Some whore that could bare the weight of his seed. Just a lucky coincidence that all 3 of his living sons were all of the Few. But where Maitha could not hope to control all if he delved into sorcery, this youngest son could of course be fully trained in the ways of the Psuke, avoiding the pitfalls of the Dunyain training that would stunt his abilities.

With a father that could fully devote time and energy to proper training, Meppa grew to be quite the little potential meta-psukari. However, before Moe could finish, his eldest son, crazy as a loon, shows up at his door. You know, Moe probably wouldn't have died if Cnaiur didnt also show up, and wasn't so stupid as to forget his chorae. Whats a little knife wound to a Dunyain?

Don't know how Meppa losing his memory fits in, but the fact that he has no past means that we can insert whatever theory we wish into it :P. So, how about it? Anyone got a timeline and some ages that could help prove/disprove this nerdenal?
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: What Came Before on May 29, 2013, 05:38:01 pm
A contingency plan if Kellhus failed the test at the Tree? Moe never could see past that crossroads, and the shortest path ended, once again, in a dead end. Did he sit around and wait for this last hope, knowing that it was the true shortest path? Seems unlikely.

This is actually conjecture - I've offered, what I think is, a fairly decent argument a handful of times across threads. Hifanat (Moenghus' Cishaurim messenger in TWP) tells Kellhus that he will grasp the Thousandfold Thought. Moenghus offers simple corroboration when Kellhus suggests that Moenghus did not see farther than the Test of the Tree and Moenghus acts surprised when Kellhus tells his father that he grasped the Thought... when clearly a book before Moenghus had told Kellhus through Hifanat that Kellhus would grasp the Thought.

As to Meppa... Well, clearly, we're all chomping at the bit to see if Moenghus did have plans beyond the conclusion of the Prince of Nothing or not. Also, we've had very little insight into Fanim culture.

But these don't offer Moenghus' reasons for raising/creating a Metapshukari apart of perceived narrative obligations ;)...
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: locke on May 29, 2013, 05:48:41 pm
Hell, Moe may have never intended Kellhus to survive, he may have simply wanted Kellhus to appear and become "known" to the world via the Holy War.

Why?

Well to let the world know that "An Anasurimbor had returned!"  He wanted a harbinger, because that would be a crucial piece of evidence in opposing Golgotteranth post Holy War.

**
Also, more related to the task at hand, drowning could refer to a Cishaurim ceremony of induction.  Maithanet could say drowning without meaning death if the the word drowning has more than one meaning. 
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: What Came Before on May 29, 2013, 05:51:04 pm
This actually came up in the Maithanet-Inrilatas conversation (which this topic is split from). Probably even your suggestion, lockesnow ;).

"They were Drowned... Baptized in the Holy Waters..."
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on May 29, 2013, 10:15:41 pm
A contingency plan if Kellhus failed the test at the Tree? Moe never could see past that crossroads, and the shortest path ended, once again, in a dead end. Did he sit around and wait for this last hope, knowing that it was the true shortest path? Seems unlikely.

This is actually conjecture - I've offered, what I think is, a fairly decent argument a handful of times across threads. Hifanat (Moenghus' Cishaurim messenger in TWP) tells Kellhus that he will grasp the Thousandfold Thought. Moenghus offers simple corroboration when Kellhus suggests that Moenghus did not see farther than the Test of the Tree and Moenghus acts surprised when Kellhus tells his father that he grasped the Thought... when clearly a book before Moenghus had told Kellhus through Hifanat that Kellhus would grasp the Thought.


Ehh I never really liked that train of thought, maybe because it sounds too convenient? I'm not really sure why, but I just don't like it.

I much prefer locke's idea that Moe never intended Kell to make it through the war. That he thought the Fanim would crush the Three Seas, the Cish would dominate that SS, and that Moe himself would somehow end up Aspect Emporer. If it had gone that way, then Maithanet could have easily transferred the power of the Shriah to the Fanim and the new Emporer would have more time to unite Earwa. Maybe even get Zeum (wishful thinking).

But then his son, by some twist of fate (or divine interference), didn't die at the Tree like he was supposed to. So Moe ran off to hide in his Mansion so that he could try to convince Kell to join him, or at least learn what caused his view of TTT/Probability trance to fail. After that, kill him, rejoin the war effort and continue whatever his plans where.

Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Cüréthañ on May 30, 2013, 09:12:43 am
But then his son, by some twist of fate (or divine interference), didn't die at the Tree like he was supposed to.
By the time of his death Moe has discovered nothing to contradict the Prime Assertion (TDTCB). 
Khellhus is the first thing to defy his conditioning, and even this can be attributed to TTT outgrowing it's inceptor.  For TTT's purpose, K is the only option, Maitha is dwarfed by a proper dunyain.

If Moe had time to secretly condition Maitha as a half dunyain, so did K. 
Perhaps K's children are more useful, stunted as they are and actually possess the same potential as Maitha. 
Perhaps they are purposefully limited by conditioning so they cannot oppose K.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on May 30, 2013, 09:01:59 pm
That is a valid idea. Maybe Kellhus intentionally broke his children to prevent any chance of a power struggle.

Or maybe going for the idiot savant thing. Without being full Dunyain, maybe it was better to strip them or certain aspects of themselves in order for the more useful parts to flourish.

He obviously had some kind of plan for each of his children except Sami... or maybe he was part of the plan to. Hard to say how much the Whelmings changed them.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Callan S. on May 31, 2013, 12:50:57 am
Always wonder how Ishmael functioned at all (with all the potential coniving) because the same questions come to mind for their as well.

Also clearly a heart beat of hesitation on Mathenets side clearly wasn't enough to qualify as a peculiarity. Or it did, but the window of opportunity was closing for Moe, so he worked with what he got.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 05:33:12 pm
If Moe had time to secretly condition Maitha as a half dunyain, so did K. 

Invalid, neh?

Kellhus has spent twenty years managing the Great Chain of Empire in preparation of the (second) Great Ordeal. Moenghus spent thirty years skulking in secret, unencumbered by the necessities of rule. Kellhus has had to work to convince people to "respekt ma authorita" and, as Esmenet notes, that only works in his presence or by invoking his name. Moenghus, even if he was all-powerful among the Cishaurim, appears to have done little that wasn't culturally condoned or socially corroborated.

I don't believe that Kellhus had the same amount of free time to expending in molding his children a la Maithanet.

That is a valid idea. Maybe Kellhus intentionally broke his children to prevent any chance of a power struggle.

Or maybe going for the idiot savant thing. Without being full Dunyain, maybe it was better to strip them or certain aspects of themselves in order for the more useful parts to flourish.

He obviously had some kind of plan for each of his children except Sami... or maybe he was part of the plan to. Hard to say how much the Whelmings changed them.

They are tools in Kellhus' End Game?
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: What Came Before on June 02, 2013, 06:15:33 pm
Just thought I'd bump the current topic, lest it be lost in the deluge of my Holy Water ;).
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Cüréthañ on June 03, 2013, 01:35:39 am
If Moe had time to secretly condition Maitha as a half dunyain, so did K. 

Invalid, neh?

Kellhus has spent twenty years managing the Great Chain of Empire in preparation of the (second) Great Ordeal. Moenghus spent thirty years skulking in secret, unencumbered by the necessities of rule. Kellhus has had to work to convince people to "respekt ma authorita" and, as Esmenet notes, that only works in his presence or by invoking his name. Moenghus, even if he was all-powerful among the Cishaurim, appears to have done little that wasn't culturally condoned or socially corroborated.

I don't believe that Kellhus had the same amount of free time to expending in molding his children a la Maithanet.

Well, that's kind of the point.  Moenghus was turning the wheels of TTT, beginning and abandoning plans as they led to dead ends, conditioning ground as far away as Sumna and Ishual without the benefit of authority.  As K notes, Moe's presence of command diminished instantly when people left his presence.  Also, he probably maintained multiple identities, caprtured and tortured skinspies, raised and conditioned a dunyain child in secret etc etc.  Whereas Khellus could call upon the resources of an Empire, had Proyas and Saubon leading his armies, didn't have to hide his shildren, was able to select whichever concubines he deemed most able to breed etc etc. 

If a dunyain child with abilities matching or exceeding those of Maitha was viable and would provide the shortest path, K would have made time to attend to it properly. 
The Rational Priority Principle does not allow for, 'if you have time for it do x or maybe something will work out' style options.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on June 03, 2013, 03:48:11 pm
I don't see it. Moe wasn't doing that much conditioning, really. He had Maitha do most of his work, and he couldn't do much in Fanim territory anyway. He only had 1 half-son to deal with, and no armies to lead.

Kellhus had to condition the entire world. Moe had only to condition his sons.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 04:33:07 pm
I think we're converging on a consensus:

If a dunyain child with abilities matching or exceeding those of Maitha was viable and would provide the shortest path, K would have made time to attend to it properly.

Half-Dunyain are tools towards Kellhus' ends, specifically, rather than training them with the intention that they surpass his skills (though abnormalities clearly occur). His nurturing different skill-sets in his children amounts to his successful walking of the Shortest Path as laid out by the cultivation of his probability trance and facilitating the success of the Thousandfold Thought (whatever that amounts to in the narrative).
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Cüréthañ on June 04, 2013, 01:47:04 am
@ Wilshire;  I feel like this is a difference of perception in the reader.  Moenghus has the larger task and lesser resources.  Kellhus walks into a position where he simply takes control of the entire three seas because circumstances have been conditioned by Moenghus.  (Triamis provides an example of a mere worldborn man gaining an empire nearly as large as the NE, so why sould such an effort leave a dunyain prodigy ragged and leaving imprtant details untended?) 
Maitha's actions are moot (and entirely dictated by Moe anyway) as we are talking about raising and training an effective dunyain child.

@ Madness; my point is that Kellhus would not neglect his breeding opportunities or the chance to properly train half dunyain to the level of Maitha (whose ability exceeds all Kellhus' children but not Kellhus) through a lack of time.

Ultimately, Kellhus' actions are determined by the Logos.  If his children were capable of achieving the balance Maitha embodies (not exceeding Kellhus), the decision on whether to nuture that potential was determined by Kellhus' assement of the shortest path, not gut feelings or a time/efffort budget.  He is not Gandalf, muddling through on intuition, hunches and inspiration. 
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 01:19:29 pm
@ Madness; my point is that Kellhus would not neglect his breeding opportunities or the chance to properly train half dunyain to the level of Maitha (whose ability exceeds all Kellhus' children but not Kellhus) through a lack of time.

Kellhus didn't have any other breeding opportunities. Only Esmenet managed to produce (arguably) viable children for him.

Ultimately, Kellhus' actions are determined by the Logos.  If his children were capable of achieving the balance Maitha embodies (not exceeding Kellhus), the decision on whether to nuture that potential was determined by Kellhus' assement of the shortest path, not gut feelings or a time/efffort budget.  He is not Gandalf, muddling through on intuition, hunches and inspiration. 

I just want to be sure no-one is arguing that the half-Dunyain children might supersede Kellhus through training. They can only be excellent extensions and representions of Kellhus' skill-set.

Also, Maithanet was raised knowing who the Dunyain were...

Kellhus' children are, obviously, misled as to their Father's origins.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Cüréthañ on June 04, 2013, 04:09:27 pm
Kellhus didn't have any other breeding opportunities. Only Esmenet managed to produce (arguably) viable children for him.

Um, how many women did blind Moenghus/Mallahet the Priest have to choose from?  ...  Kellhus had a much broader range of breeding stock, imperial concubines are mentioned.  Like an empire worth of choices.  He has people who will conduct any secret mission and happily top themselves after doing whatever task he asks of them without question. Seriously ... he managed to find the only other worldborn woman able to bear dunyain children?

Maybe Esme was the only other one who could produce viable children (albiet with less success), but it wasn't for lack of opportunities.
Khellhus may have hidden offspring for all we know, seems more likely than Maitha having other secret siblings superior to Kellhus' gaggle of crazies.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Madness on June 04, 2013, 07:37:27 pm
I think we're talking past each other a little. I'm agreeing with you, I think.

Kellhus had a much broader range of breeding stock, imperial concubines are mentioned.  Like an empire worth of choices.  He has people who will conduct any secret mission and happily top themselves after doing whatever task he asks of them without question.

We agree here, I think?

Maybe Esme was the only other one who could produce viable children (albiet with less success), but it wasn't for lack of opportunities.

We agree here, I think?

Um, how many women did blind Moenghus/Mallahet the Priest have to choose from?

...

Seriously ... he managed to find the only other worldborn woman able to bear dunyain children?

I'm on a sabbatical from work at the moment and I took a little vacation: a friend of mine who hovers here and I had a conversation, which featured this exactly (aside I recorded it as I'm thinking about breaking into unrelated podcasts but I wanted to test my editing skills).

Moenghus the Elder arguably found at least one woman, if not more than one, with which to breed (arguably) viable offspring (also, we don't know what proscriptions Mallahet "broke" as Cishaurim to do so).

But yet Kellhus who can exploit all the advantages in selection, which you highlight, can only find one other woman to produce a child that is physiologically normal...

So Moenghus and Kellhus, arguably, found the only two women with which to breed with...

I think we're both wrestling with the same incredulousness here.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on June 04, 2013, 09:39:06 pm
How could there only be 2? I know this isn't the central question being discussed, but for me... Seriously!? How is it possible that an Emperor with an empire full of willing woman, and a blind priest, end up finding the same number of viable mothers?
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: locke on June 04, 2013, 10:59:03 pm
According to Esmenet, only Esmenet is so special and blessed to be able to carry Kellhus' children to term.

naturally, Kellhus has absolutely no incentive to disabuse her of this notion, nope none whatsoever, nothing to see here, Esmenet is a special snowflake.  The End.

Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on June 05, 2013, 01:56:04 am
Yes but why. We are not Serw... I mean Esmi. What is the reason that he could only find 1? Or, why pretend like it?

Either Moe Kell are super lucky, or Kell is a liar... But why lie?
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Madness on June 05, 2013, 01:00:25 pm
How could there only be 2? I know this isn't the central question being discussed, but for me... Seriously!? How is it possible that an Emperor with an empire full of willing woman, and a blind priest, end up finding the same number of viable mothers?

I think you've hit upon a central question, Wilshire: What distinguishes worldborn mothers capable of bearing Dunyain seed?
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on June 05, 2013, 03:00:52 pm
Maybe there where more Anansorimbor Bastards before the apocalypse. Only the world born women with some dilute amount of that blood could hope to bare a dunyain child. I still think that there is some Nonmen in that line.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Madness on June 05, 2013, 04:39:38 pm
That, or it raises some really hard questions about Moenghus the Elder's worldborn baby's mama - for Esmenet we've had various speculations about her being Celmomas' true heir, at least.

Again, what make these woman special (sorry, Wilshire, I have no real speculative fodder to add)?
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: locke on June 05, 2013, 07:16:51 pm
Yes but why. We are not Serw... I mean Esmi. What is the reason that he could only find 1? Or, why pretend like it?

Either Moe Kell are super lucky, or Kell is a liar... But why lie?

Why pretend?  Because any Worldborn is probably going to produce many sports/nonviable offspring with a Dunyain counterpart.  The worldborn partner will naturally be horrified, or emotionally devastated etc by this outcome, if Dunyain lies to worldborn one that there have been some monstrosities but only they have also produced viable live 'human' babies then that's a huge psychological boost that can act to counteract all the emotional trauma from producing the non-viable offspring.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: EkyannusIII on June 05, 2013, 08:38:37 pm
Regarding Esmi:

Yes but why. We are not Serw... I mean Esmi. What is the reason that he could only find 1? Or, why pretend like it?

The reason is plot convenience.  The idea that some streetwalker from Sumna is the only woman in the Three Seas able to carry Kellhus' ubermensch-seed is preposterous - well born women would almost certainly be much more intelligent than someone from the poorer classes - but Bakker needs a motive to keep Akka at Kellhus' throat, so cuckoldry is the subplot he employs.  It would have been better to leave her with Akka and have her place taken by an Anna Comnena like character, the niece of Xerius and last of the Ikurei, who chronicled the Holy War like the real Anna wrote the Alexiad.  This would give Bakker a new fictional author to provide epigraphs from, another way to have Kellhus grab power (marrying into the last of the old dynasty) and it could be another Dune reference (to Irulan).  But no, we have to have the cuck subplot.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Callan S. on June 06, 2013, 09:17:54 am
Quote
well born women would almost certainly be much more intelligent than someone from the poorer classes
Not really. Better educated, yes. But really it'd be the opposite, retract difficult conditions for a few generations and you have a higher chance of the stupider genes slipping in, while a poor person with those genes might well be dead and thus unable to breed. Perhaps along with Yatwer, another textual flag in regard to the poor.

But that Esme happened to turn up just in the right place and time? Remember Kellhus actually loves her - the neural activity for that love is hidden away amongst everything, while K declares himself be beyond human or whatever. He's working in arc, rather than shortest lines.

Also the world conspires. Or in the end, the authors been showing his hand, quite explicitly, all along. It's the way we can keep looking past that authorial hand which is part of the lesson.

Also he had a bunch of ill fated concubines as well, because hey, when your the boss, just do whatchu wanna! Who's to say they weren't all carefully chosen for intelligence? Thus Esme being his wife doesn't really matter anyway, in regards to efficiency.

Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on June 06, 2013, 03:35:14 pm
Haha EkyannusIII, maybe he figured he already had too many in there already so he choose another path.

Locke, I'm pretty sure they where chosen for intelligence. Esmi was the one that went looking for them. She didn't want to be forced to have his bizarre children so she tried her hardest to find the best possible replacements.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: locke on June 06, 2013, 05:31:18 pm
Locke, I'm pretty sure they where chosen for intelligence. Esmi was the one that went looking for them. She didn't want to be forced to have his bizarre children so she tried her hardest to find the best possible replacements.
Conditioned all the way down.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on June 06, 2013, 06:33:37 pm
I don't know about that. She seems to have her own free will when Kellhus isn't around. If anyone should be entierly under his control it should be Esmi. She should have turned into Serwe after so many years under his watchful gaze. And yet, when he goes, she hates.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: locke on June 07, 2013, 06:57:53 am
you say that as though the first extensive manipulation we readers were privy to was not Kellhus using Cnaiur's hate to optimal advantage to facilitate the conditioning process.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Madness on June 07, 2013, 01:14:52 pm
Obviously, Achamian revealing the truth of the Dunyain to Esmenet was a wrench in Kellhus' domination. I think Kelmomas' manipulation of Esmenet is more recent and dominating that Kellhus' assuming Kelmomas isn't Kellhus' sleeper agent.

But Esmenet, obviously, is still doing whatever Kellhus wants her to do - because she believes, not because she is dominated.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: sciborg2 on August 23, 2013, 05:42:47 am
Could Saccarees be a child of Big Moe?

Or is he too old?
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Madness on August 23, 2013, 12:53:40 pm
I don't think we know enough to hazard Saccarees' age.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: EkyannusIII on October 16, 2013, 05:36:23 pm
I don't think we know enough to hazard Saccarees' age.

This is true, and yet ... his age is unmentioned, which means that it does not stand out.  Who is he commonly in the company of?  The other leaders of his leg of the Ordeal, and before that the leading Mandati and perhaps some other grandees of the Kellian Empire - he is dicussed as a known quantity, a famous figure, when he appears for the first time, so he had been a fixture in the new order of things for some time at least.  He could be unusually young for his degree of eminence, say, thirty or so... Yet now I am just reminded that Proyas was rather young himself in the First Holy War, and his age was rarely mentioned due to his royal rank. Too many factors, the trance has failed me!
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Cüréthañ on October 28, 2013, 07:43:43 am
More crackpottery. 
Moenghus is Mimara's dad.
She really is Anasurimbor!

We know he moved through Nansur at the start of TDTCB.  Sorcery can be used to disguise.  We know Esme is good stock...  Age is right.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on October 28, 2013, 07:45:01 pm
More crackpottery. 
Moenghus is Mimara's dad.
She really is Anasurimbor!

We know he moved through Nansur at the start of TDTCB.  Sorcery can be used to disguise.  We know Esme is good stock...  Age is right.

Are you sure the age is right? I can't remember her age or when Moe was around.

It does give credence to the idea that Mimara is the Harbinger, rather than Kellhus (though for me personally I don't see why that is important). Way more interesting is, if you believe that the Anasorimbor line has some Nonmen in it, then Mimara might have some. Her and Akka are awfully close to Ishterebinth, and Akka is wearing the Dead Kings armor. We already know that she had some strange affect on Cleric (because i cant spell his previous name), and with the King's armor, I bet there will be some strange scenes with Nonmen in their future.

It would be awesome if Mimara was partially Dunyain. Maybe being abused at a whore house for her entire life severely stunted her Dunyain-like abilities. She is also of the Few, which I am not convinced that the trait is not somewhat genetic. (Schoolmen are not allowed to have wives, so no one is tracking trait anyway).
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Triskele on November 18, 2013, 04:18:28 am
More crackpottery. 
Moenghus is Mimara's dad.
She really is Anasurimbor!

We know he moved through Nansur at the start of TDTCB.  Sorcery can be used to disguise.  We know Esme is good stock...  Age is right.

I think we're to believe that he trecked hard south to avoid going through Nansurium because of his Scylvendi scars. 

That said, as Mallahet, we saw him travel.  Who knows what he was capable of.

But the explanation for why he skipped Nansur and went to Kian makes sense.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Somnambulist on November 18, 2013, 06:36:01 am
My two cents:  If Mimara were Moe's daughter, she would more than likely have turned out fair-skinned, blonde and tall (like Serwa).  She's none of those things, as far as I remember from the text.  Strength of Dunyain seed and all that.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Cüréthañ on November 18, 2013, 08:21:21 am
Pfft, logic.  Moe's seed is like water next to Kellhus' god-slime.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Madness on November 18, 2013, 01:13:10 pm
Lol. Wow.

I agree, Somnambulist.

But on traveling, I've been thinking for awhile that Glamours are the X-Factor and Moenghus could have danced around Momemn like a giant chicken had he wanted to and people would flee in terror because that is just what is. Let alone cover scars or appear differently than other people.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: mrganondorf on February 11, 2014, 11:01:38 pm
I can resist throwing in my crackpot too: Old Moe has tons of kids walking around dominating circumstance.   ;D  Six kids only?  Lies.  Drowned?  LIES.  Only 2 women can bear little dunyain swimmers?  LIES LIES LIES!!!  Old Moe got that psukhe and then let out the rumor that it requires passion.  Kellhus gets it wrong, believes the cover his dad has worked so hard to erect, it would have to be elaborate to deceive a son of Ishual!  Esmi is not special, Moe's just got Dunyain/Cishaurim working around the clock to magically manipulate her womb so that Kellhus gets just the kids Moe wants him to have and no others.

I can't think of any narrative reasons why Bakker would hide so many Moe-children, I've just fallen into the habit of mistrusting all them character.   :-[

Moe's kids: Meppa, Fanayal, Mimara, Sorweel, Ninjanjin and Sil.

THE TWIST: Moe is not Kellhus' dad.  Kellhus was born of a virgin.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Meyna on February 12, 2014, 01:39:21 pm
Moe being "everyone's" father would be an interesting twist, for sure. Kellhus is said to look a lot like Moe, though, so perhaps the virgin is Moe's sister or something ;D
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on February 12, 2014, 01:40:37 pm
Moe being "everyone's" father would be an interesting twist, for sure. Kellhus is said to look a lot like Moe, though, so perhaps the virgin is Moe's sister or something ;D

Haha I just went through that line of logic in another thread a few days ago. Its really the only explanation I could think of.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: mrganondorf on May 06, 2014, 02:48:10 pm
The more I think about it, I can't see any reason why Moe wouldn't have squadrons of children running around.  He has time and power and it would only help whatever his goals.  Why would he make only a few kids?  Could be Yatwer, but I would think a Dunyain would find away around it.  Is he scared his kids could usurp him?  The only ones who would be remotely possible would be the ones with the gift of the few and Maitha does his dad's will.  It would be a great way to protect the Dunyain project: if Ishual is ever destroyed, some of it's latest greatest strains are in the world waiting to go into breeding programs again.

What was removed from Kyudea before Kellhus got there: a whole suite of half-dunyain residences.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on May 06, 2014, 04:07:15 pm
The Dunyain don't seem to but much merit into plan "B" (no pun intended). Moe thought he'd survive the encounter with his son. So why spend the time and resources rearing children properly? After all, left to their own devices the Dunyain children go mad.

Moenghus had his hands full rasing a sing child in secret while attempting to control the Fanim and rouse the Inrithi into a Crusade. I don't think he had the resources to raise a brood of properly functioning children.

Its kind of a "pick one" secnario. Either dominate the world or raise a brood of world-dominating children. If you pick world domination, you can either have 1 (or maybe 2) successful child(ren), or a brood of autistic savants.

It would seem that raising your own army of super-children would be the way to go, but I think it goes against the grain of Dunyain rationality. Once in the world, domination is everything, and even a full blooded Sayin, errm I mean Dunyain, would lose control given enough time and enough children. The parent would eventually be dominated by the children, and this is unacceptable.
It works OK in Ishual everyone is working towards the goal of dominating TDTCB, rather than eachother. Inevitably the children surpass the parents, but that is the whole point, its how they eventually hope to create a Self Moving soul. But once they are not all bent towards the same goal, they would fight amonst themselves to be the best Dunyain currently alive (Highlander).
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Madness on May 08, 2014, 07:04:52 pm
Moenghus establishes Second Ishual in accordance with missives left long ago by Dunyain Nostradamus ;).
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: mrganondorf on May 08, 2014, 07:48:37 pm
I can see how it might be either/or, but I'm not sure that it is.  The main thing that Moe would have to worry about would be defectives and patricide and he could deal with both of those by conditioning the oldest children.  As long as the kids are not defective, they should be able to see that daddy Moe has 'the strength' and that their own survival and flourishing would be more likely in keeping peace with him.  No?

Kyudea could have be kind of like a mini-Thousand Thousand Halls!
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on May 08, 2014, 08:36:05 pm
I think Kelmomas speaks heavily against the point of view MG. Dunyain, whole or otherwise, don't seem to play well with others out in the real world. Domination because the only thing that matters, and I don't think anything but constant control could prevent patricide. I think the task just gets exponentially more difficult as the number of children increase. Moe Sr. did fine with 1, Kellhus kept his first 2 sane, but after that it all went to hell.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: mrganondorf on May 08, 2014, 09:47:54 pm
Kelmomas is the perfect counter-example, but I wonder if Moe would just drown him.  30 years is a lot of hump time!  Even if you deliberately drown all of them that have the Gift (the main way a patricide could be accomplished).
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Cüréthañ on May 08, 2014, 10:40:26 pm
Esme is the only person I can think of who wouldn't want to drown Kelmomas.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: The Sharmat on May 14, 2014, 01:16:24 pm
Have we considered the possibility that Maithanet was right, and Kellhus really was sparing his defective children for Esmenet's sake?

There is one scene in The Warrior Prophet where Kellhus has thoughts about Esmenet that are dangerously close to actual human affection. Or at least as close as a Dunyain can come to it.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on May 17, 2014, 11:30:13 pm
I just doubt that he was doing it only for Esmi. There must have been some reason, even a secondary one, to keep the kids alive. Esmi certainly suffers a lot at the hands of her children, I can't imagine having so many was her idea. Actually, I'm pretty sure she even says that she didn't want any more at some point, bringing in concubines, etc.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Alia on May 18, 2014, 02:49:37 pm
It's in Chapter 3 of TJE:
Quote
She had prayed for the passing of her fertility during this time, for what the Nansur called meseremta, the "dry season." But Yatwer's Water continued to flow, and she so dreaded coupling with Kellhus that she actively sought out surrogates for him, women of native intellect like herself.
"This time" is time after the birth of the nameless one and then Inrilitas.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Madness on May 19, 2014, 08:16:48 pm
Thanks, Alia.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: mrganondorf on May 27, 2014, 04:20:51 am
Have we considered the possibility that Maithanet was right, and Kellhus really was sparing his defective children for Esmenet's sake?

There is one scene in The Warrior Prophet where Kellhus has thoughts about Esmenet that are dangerously close to actual human affection. Or at least as close as a Dunyain can come to it.

I feel stupid for not thinking of this possibility.  BUMP
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: SilentRoamer on May 27, 2014, 02:02:58 pm
As you all know I am convinced of Kellhus goodness!

I truly think that Kellhus is in love with Esmi. There are a number of moments in TWP and TTT where we see a real emotional reaction from Kellhus - he even questions himself on the thoughts/feelings he is having and where these feelings are coming from.

This goes along with my view that Kellhus broke on the cross - his mental breakdown and subsequent miracle were just that. A Dunyain who feels could be considered "mad". Like a robot that can love... I think he needed to be sufficiently crazy in order to pull Serwes Heart from his chest and only through becoming "more" could he remove frame of place.

Anyway I know a lot of people think I am crazy but I think this is one of the reasons we are not getting a PoV from Kellhus.

Come on TUC!

Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on May 27, 2014, 02:23:26 pm
The subjectivity of "mad" has not been discussed (or at least not recently). Its a valid point that Kellhus could indeed be mad when viewed by Moenghus (or whoever the hell is narrating the "What Has Come Before" sections), but seem perfectly sane/normal to the inhabitants of Earwa, or even the readers themselves. I would not be surprised if Bakker was "telling" the reader what to think, just so that he can point out the subversion later when he turns the whole thing on its head.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: SilentRoamer on May 28, 2014, 12:50:42 pm
I think Kellhus has gone "mad" by Dunyain standards. He no longer accepts that what came before is what is controlling him. Almost like he believes he is a "self moving soul".

The guy was showing signs of emotion in TWP pre circumfix, we clearly see an emotional reaction from him which DOES enable him to perform a miracle (assume for the sake of argument the Heart was a miracle.) We then see less and less of Kellhus PoV and what we do see does not indicate driving motives. Kellhus sees his own haloes - he even wonders about them.

This is the contradiction for me - A "sane" Dunyain tries to control tDtCB and believe themselves above "world born" men. Kellhus seems to have accepted tDtCB as part of his driving motivations. It is entirely against Dunyain cognition.

Just some musings.

I would cut off my left nut for some Kellhus PoV in TUC.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: mrganondorf on May 28, 2014, 02:44:52 pm
Makes me wonder if Kellhus believes hard enough and long enough that he is already a self-moving soul, then his lie will become the breath that is ground.  Is this locke's thing?  Kellhus playing prophet so long he becomes the prophet?
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: SilentRoamer on May 28, 2014, 03:35:51 pm
Hey MG - that is essentially where I am going with this.

Kellhus manipulations have gone so deep he no longer knows they are manipulations - essentially he believes his own bullshit. Thing is in Earwa belief = reality at least in terms of how reality conforms to intent. Kellhus and all his followers intent is growing strong enough to affect the Inward... Interesting how he was the last PoV to see his haloes (iirc)
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: mrganondorf on May 28, 2014, 03:39:23 pm
I like it!  I continually forget that about Eawa, about belief = power or something like that.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on February 03, 2015, 03:46:42 pm
From Who Are the Dunyain thread, though I didn't want to put my thoughts there
Interesting, though I still think at least initially that the word came from Dúnedain.
This was my thought as well. Kellhus is a terrible twisted version of Aragorn, in a way.

Solitary God = Absolute.

The Dûnyain have been inadvertently worshiping the Fanim God all along.
Wouldn't it be more correct to say the Fanim have been worshiping the Dunyain conception of the Absolute inadvertently? The Dunyain are older than the Fanim.

And Moenghus, yes.
Cnaiur's mother must have been a truly rare woman. Moenghus fathered a seemingly healthy son by her, though he was long gone by the time it was born, and likely didn't even know she was pregnant. Of course then Cnaiur's mother and the child were killed for being contaminated by Moenghus.

This to me either points to Moenghus being  a strange Dunyain, or Kellhus being broken, genetically speaking.

Why would, presumably, Moenghus be able to sire children with less trouble than Kellhus? Kellhus, with the resources of an empire and revered as a God, was only able to find a single vessel for his children, and they all ended up emotionally broken in some way, most of the physically. Moe was able to sire at least 2 children from 2 different non-dunyain women, one of which was a Scylvendi, who would be the least likely people, imo, to match up with the Dunyain's genetic heritage.

This assumes that something in the way that the Dunyain have been selectively breeding is what causes the problems with the children. We know that they spent 2000 years breeding for intellectual acuity and physical prowess. Maybe worth noting that Bakker has mentioned that whatever they were doing may inadvertently have been selecting for the Few. Maybe the Scylvendi, with the harsh circumstances of their roaming people, have actually selected similarly for genetic traits that made them closer to the Dunyain gene pool than might originally be obvious. Wonder if the Scylvendi are disproportionaly able to see the Onta than the rest of the Three Seas...


Tangent. One interesting thing to note is that not a single half-dunyain has any children. A common effect of inter-breeding two species is that their offspring are often infertile. A bit strange that Kellhus was working so hard to have children and he didn't employ his brother to help. After all, a well-adjusted and completely functional quarter-dunyain would be far more useful than a bunch of drowned children, or Inrilatas. Perhaps the Dunyain did in-fact speciate some time before Moe left for the World. Accelerated breeding and extreme artificial selection could have caused this speciation event to happen many thousands of years faster than might have been expected.... Maybe Kellhus' generation of Dunyain are the first true non-humans.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: The Sharmat on February 04, 2015, 02:24:15 am
Kellhus may not have tried as hard as Moenghus. He was taking other women later in life only at Esmenet's urging (which is interesting, given the discussion above. Did Kellhus yield to Esmenet because he could see the dread inside her whenever they coupled?)

And if Cnaiur is anything to go by, his mother was likely exceptionally intelligent. Which seems to be an outward marker for Dunyain genetic compatibility.

As for Kellhus' and Moenghus' children being mules...I hadn't considered that, but it's certainly possible. That said, Maithanet was just a tool of his father and may have seen no need to procreate, and Kayutas is, what, 20? It could just be they haven't gotten around to trying yet.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on February 04, 2015, 04:34:26 am
Like I said, Maitha for sure should have some children floating around.

Also, 20 seems plenty old, even 15 should have been old enough. What is the average lifespan? I know 100+ isn't unheard of, but that seems far to old given the times. I'm not a big history guy, but 20 seems lateish to start a family in the middle ages?
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: The Sharmat on February 04, 2015, 04:41:02 am
The Three-Seas aren't really similar to medieval Europe at all culturally or technologically though. And these are Dunyain. They don't have offspring except in pursuit of a purpose. Kayutas and Maithanet have never gone wenching for its own sake, if at all.

Although strictly speaking...do we know Maithanet never had children? Maybe he simply didn't tell anyone.

But yeah, wouldn't be at all surprised to find out half-Dunyain are just mules.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on February 05, 2015, 02:32:00 am
imo it looks like Kellhus was breeding for a purpose, and it seems like it was to have competent pawns for his Ordeal. Given that, it seems like he should have been milking Maitha for his golden, or at least silver, seed.

It would have been tough for Maitha to have children that Kellhus didn't know about, and since we didnt have any hints about them, I doubt he has any running around.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: The Sharmat on February 05, 2015, 08:52:52 am
I don't think the Shriah is allowed to reproduce. Kellhus could rewrite that scripture too, but...another Dunyain lineage is as much threat as it is tool.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on February 05, 2015, 03:20:49 pm
Yeah, I think I, or someone else, discussed that up thread somewhere. Being a Dunyain (or maybe just half-dunyain) seems to necessitate the need for involved child rearing else they go crazy.

I dont understand, then, why he had more than 2 or 3. If he was looking for some specific trait, or balance of traits, it would seem prudent to have as many as possible. Even if he was just farming for potential schoolmen, more would be better... Otherwise, why not just take the first 2 children and be done with it. I guarantee that Kellhus could have taken anything that came out out of Esminet and molded it into a useful tool. Why waste the efforts making more that you couldn't control?

There just doesn't seem to be a logical reason to have a bunch of disabled children.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: The Sharmat on February 06, 2015, 04:30:14 am
Children die. Even half-Dunyain. If something were to happen to Kayutas in early childhood, he could switch to a spare.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on February 06, 2015, 02:04:37 pm
Do you happen to know the age gap between each, more or less? If he was making spares, they should all be 18-24 months apart, otherwise the age gap would be too large for them to be useful for whatever his plans are, or he would have had to delay the march of the Ordeal.

Maybe Kayutas and Serwa are that close, and maybe even Inrilatas, but after that it seem that Thelopia, Kelmomas, and Samaras are much younger.

They seem to be tokens to please Esmenet more than anything else... Then again maybe not. They might all have been crafted for a purpose once their particular brand of crazy was studied by Kellhus.
Inrilatas im not sure about, but he served a purpose in the end. Thel was a good counselor for Esmi, and Kelmomas has something special going on, probably something in part due to Kellhus' influence as well as other outside influences.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: The Sharmat on February 06, 2015, 05:30:55 pm
I think the gaps are larger between some than others, because some of them had nameless, deformed siblings between them. And remember, Esmenet's pregnancies last significantly longer than traditional ones. Probably takes her awhile to recover from them and be ready to gestate again.

I don't think Kel is a product of Kellhus at all. Kelmomas seems scarcely to have even met him.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on February 06, 2015, 09:09:17 pm
Yeah, you're right. Still births and longer birth/recovery cycles.

Per Kelmomas
His first scene is him either just before or just after his 'whelming'. Kellhus could have severely rewired his brain, or not, considering what he did to Serwe during her whelming experience.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: The Sharmat on February 06, 2015, 11:07:38 pm
He could have. But the Whelming of his children largely seems to be nifty ritual. In theory, Kellhus could have severely rewired the brains of anyone he's spent 2 minutes alone with and we'd never know. So I don't think it's that worth speculating in most cases.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on February 07, 2015, 03:46:07 am
I would agree, but it is specifically mentioned at the start, so I feel like its something... but it is a black box so yeah not a great speculation train.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: themerchant on March 11, 2015, 11:01:34 pm
Yeah maitha before he snuffs it is saying to Esmi, tell my brot..herS

She has no way to tell Kellhus something, as Maitha knows. So it rules out Kellhus as the "brother".
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on March 12, 2015, 03:36:37 am
Thanks for feeding my crazy theory :D
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Francis Buck on March 12, 2015, 03:41:39 am
I think Kellhus basically rewired the brain of Kel/Sam by intentionally ignoring him. I just don't think Kellhus would do something so stupid as to leave one of his own functional (I use that word lightly) children be completely unbridled unless he actually wanted them to be. You could chalk up Kelmomas just being the one thing that Kellhus happened to neglect in the grand scheme of the Great Ordeal (whatever it is), but it feels way too obvious. Of all things, there's no way he did not account for bringing other Dunyain (particularly half-dunyain, which seem more volatile/unpredictable) into existence. I think every single one of his children was a calculated maneuver. It doesn't fit with the character otherwise.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: themerchant on March 12, 2015, 07:39:06 pm
I believe in TWP in the scene where Kellhus "whelms" Serwe to find out what the kell-skinspy had asked her, the whelming is described as the place where voice overwrites voice, or words to that affect. sorry i dont have the book handy to check. "He slowly scraped the event from the parchment of her soul" or something like that.  I believe Kellhus also called a different ceremony the whelming or the like, where splash oil on the face it goes on fire and a priest with a wet cloth puts it out. Which is much more ceremonial.

It also seems very familiar with the state Inri was trying to invoke in little Kel before(we think but maybe actually after, not before) he was "saved" by the cleaning dude pulling him back, they are even induced in the same way, by matching heartbeat and breaths. The voice warns Kel, "he breaths as you do..."

Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: The Sharmat on March 12, 2015, 10:17:15 pm
Kellhus does stupid things for sentimental reasons.

Everyone forgets this for some reason. Cnaiur was only alive in the Thousandfold Thought for sentiment. Kellhus thinks to himself multiple times "I should have killed him."
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: mrganondorf on March 16, 2015, 12:10:59 am
Kellhus does stupid things for sentimental reasons.

Everyone forgets this for some reason. Cnaiur was only alive in the Thousandfold Thought for sentiment. Kellhus thinks to himself multiple times "I should have killed him."

proof of the puppet strings!
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: The Sharmat on March 16, 2015, 02:57:01 am
It also seems very familiar with the state Inri was trying to invoke in little Kel before(we think but maybe actually after, not before) he was "saved" by the cleaning dude pulling him back, they are even induced in the same way, by matching heartbeat and breaths. The voice warns Kel, "he breaths as you do..."
Interesting that you apparently can't hypnotize them both at the same time. Samarmas was totally aware of what was happening and trying to snap Kelmomas out of it.

Samarmas also tries to interrupt what was going to happen between Inrilatas and Maithanet. He didn't like that they had no idea what was going on.

I think Samarmas is smarter than Kelmomas.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Simas Polchias on March 16, 2015, 06:50:13 pm
Kellhus is somehow defective in a way that makes his children retarded/crazy?
I still never really understood why Esmi was the one that could sire his children, and how Moe could have found someone to bare him a nearly perfect child. Doesn't make much sense to me.
For the first question (and partly the second), there is a chance of genetic abyss existing between Kellhus and his parents/other duniyain/other ppl. Like, an Ishual breeding program finally unfolded, creating someone barely-human. If that's true, Moengus is not so "alien" to humans as his son is and their breeding problems should differ.
For the second question, consience & intellect play a great deal in bakkerverse to a level of determining existence of soul or prerequisite to mess with onta. More specifically, monks at Ishual honed such traits throught eugenic means. So, Esmi's high intelligence can be an indirect indication of her genetic fit to carry some duniyain children alive. That's a sign of common genetic ground (nurtured in Kellhus, natured in Esmi).
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wic on March 17, 2015, 03:34:28 pm

I think Samarmas is smarter than Kelmomas.
I feel like someone's brought this up already, but maybe he's very close to being a self-moving soul, untethered to his own darkness and able to sift through Kel's.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on March 17, 2015, 05:52:35 pm
Is speciation kind of like an event horizon, by which I mean that there is this hard generational line where suddenly all subsequent generations are a different species? If so, what Simas said could be possible.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: The Sharmat on March 18, 2015, 10:46:20 am
Is speciation kind of like an event horizon, by which I mean that there is this hard generational line where suddenly all subsequent generations are a different species? If so, what Simas said could be possible.
No. Species don't even really exist. They're just a useful generalization. Confusing hybridizations happen a lot, and genetic incompatability can be profound yet still not a hard and fast rule.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on March 19, 2015, 08:36:57 pm
Yeah I didnt think it was that simple, but I thought I'd ask. I guess its still possible though that Kellhus happened to have more genetic variation then Moenghus, compared to normal humanity, if that is indeed what causes the inability to have viable offspring.

I think we are to assume that intelligence is supposed to be a marker for compatibility, and so too would the ability to see the Onta, but since there aren't really any schoolwomen there isn't an easy way to ferret them out.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: The Sharmat on March 19, 2015, 08:49:46 pm
It's possible, but by this point in time, the Dunyain are likely profoundly inbred.

I wonder if Kellhus knew Esmi's mother was a witch.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on March 20, 2015, 12:29:35 pm
They could be inbred but exhibit little to no effects of typical inbred populations if they took extraordinary precautions as only the Dunyain could have.

But how does that come into play here? Are you suggesting that because the Dunyain are so inbred, there would likely not be may differences, genetically, between Kellhus and Moenghus?

What was the stated goal for Moenghus to go out into the world? If the Dunyain were getting so inbred that they were having significant trouble procreating, its likely that more than just 1 or 2 would have been sent to the world so that they could conquer it (or at least part of it) and send fresh genetic stock regularly to the Dunyain. We've seen the unfortunate effects of the half-dunyain, and breeding with the regular humans would set them back hundreds of years, but if they kept isolated for much longer they wouldn't be able to have children at all.

This is why I don't believe that to be the case. It doesn't seem like that was what they are/were trying to do with Moenghus/Kellhus. I think they have a profound understanding of  genetics and have been extremely careful about it since their inception, and have fine tuned their plan with their super-dunyain brains every generation or two.

It could be that the Anasurimbor line needed to be culled. For whatever reason too pure (in this case meaning lots of inbreding i guess), perhaps a failed line a centuries long experiment with that bloodline. As Alia mentioned in a different thread, when breeding cats and such, if you suspect a negetive genetic trait to run in the family you often breed a mother/son or father/daughter pair, and if the children show the defect, you simply remove them from the breeding....

The Dunyain recognized that the Anasurimbor line has some issue, so they bred Moenghus with his mother a few times. Maybe Kellhus was find but his brothers/sisters had the defect, so they killed them off. Instead of killing Moe outright, they sent him out to scout the world. He came back, realized he was going to be killed, and left. No idea why they didn't just kill Kel though

Edit:
For inbred dunyain populations, see: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=993.msg8263#msg8263
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: The Sharmat on March 21, 2015, 03:02:42 pm
They can still be inbred and not suffering tremendously from inbreeding depression due to a careful program of selective breeding. The genetic distance between Kellhus and Moenghus could be smaller than it usually is between father and son but not represent any serious genetic disabilities.

I believe their difficulty in breeding with other hominids may be due to genetic drift and incipient speciation rather than Dunyain genetics being a complete clusterfuck.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: mrganondorf on June 02, 2015, 05:59:03 pm

I think Samarmas is smarter than Kelmomas.
I feel like someone's brought this up already, but maybe he's very close to being a self-moving soul, untethered to his own darkness and able to sift through Kel's.

it would be neat if there was a general principle--the murdered occupies the darkness that comes before the murderer.  kelmomas killed sami, so now sami can control kelmomas (sami manipulated kelmomas into doing it too)

moenghus controls kellhus!  inrilatis controls maitha! 
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Wilshire on June 04, 2015, 01:02:09 pm
Maybe this is what makes the Dunyain have such insight.

They are born in pairs, or form tight bonds with another, and then they are sent into the TTT and instructed to make sure that only one of them leaves, and if both emerge they will both be killed. Every living Dunyain has this second soul.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: mrganondorf on September 22, 2015, 10:21:27 pm
Maybe this is what makes the Dunyain have such insight.

They are born in pairs, or form tight bonds with another, and then they are sent into the TTT and instructed to make sure that only one of them leaves, and if both emerge they will both be killed. Every living Dunyain has this second soul.

very interesting Wilshire!

when Kellhus said that his kids had 2 souls, i didn't take it literally, thinking it was just a way of talking about consciousness vs self-awareness.  as in the Dunyain are so self-aware that their self-awareness is almost like a second soul monitoring the first soul: ordinary awareness

however, if the Dunyain literally have two souls: a human soul and a dunyain soul, then it might be a dunyain objective to jettison the human soul.  perhaps Kellhus was planning to have twins creating a situation where 1 body is split into 2, so there are 2 souls and 2 bodies.  using [METHOD] kellhus will shove the human soul in one body, leaving the other body with nothing but the Dunyain soul

perhaps he thought this would be a way to keep the breeding program alive if Ishual is destroyed.

if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: locke on September 23, 2015, 01:39:38 am
Maybe this is what makes the Dunyain have such insight.

They are born in pairs, or form tight bonds with another, and then they are sent into the TTT and instructed to make sure that only one of them leaves, and if both emerge they will both be killed. Every living Dunyain has this second soul.
Which immediately leads me to the speculation that moe is kells twin brother (hence the we are identical thoughts he has when he enters kyudea) and kellhus has merely been whelmed into believing moe is his father and that they are both 35, rather like aragorn,  they can pass for 35 because of their half elf genetics.
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: Simas Polchias on September 27, 2015, 06:08:07 pm
Which immediately leads me to the speculation that moe is kells twin brother (hence the we are identical thoughts he has when he enters kyudea) and kellhus has merely been whelmed into believing moe is his father and that they are both 35, rather like aragorn,  they can pass for 35 because of their half elf genetics.

Wow, I like this twist.
But, plz, excuse me for the next pic.

(http://cdn.mx7.com/i/dad/sVnEH.jpg)
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: mrganondorf on September 27, 2015, 11:32:35 pm
Maybe this is what makes the Dunyain have such insight.

They are born in pairs, or form tight bonds with another, and then they are sent into the TTT and instructed to make sure that only one of them leaves, and if both emerge they will both be killed. Every living Dunyain has this second soul.
Which immediately leads me to the speculation that moe is kells twin brother (hence the we are identical thoughts he has when he enters kyudea) and kellhus has merely been whelmed into believing moe is his father and that they are both 35, rather like aragorn,  they can pass for 35 because of their half elf genetics.

WOAH!  Meppa is Kellhus' real dad--while not being old Moe!

if all of this is true, i wonder if Kellhus forged some kind of magic bond between Kayutas and lil Moe by having them raised as effectively twins
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: mrganondorf on September 28, 2015, 12:01:30 am
thinking about Moe, i think it's cool to imagine him traveling into Kian and calculating ... hm, i'm dunyain so naturally i want to be as powerful as possible, should i be the top Cish?  maybe i should become the head of the Scarlet Spires?  i can't not do magic, maybe i could become a Shrial-Shaman?  hmm, those Mandate are pretty fancy, maybe i should be their king.  Nansur is an empire and has a school, i could be emperor.  i convince them that the scars on my arm are really a symbol of Nansur prowess--it's the number of Scylvendi i've killed or something.

i could become Lord of the Consult but that will take some time...
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: geoffrobro on September 29, 2015, 09:53:57 pm
The twin idea is interesting but Moe Sr. Was 30 years older then Kellhus. maithnet is proof of his older age because at the beginning of TDTCB Kellhus is 30 and is but on the circumfix at 33. (Like our good buddy Jesus who died at 33.)
I think the Dunyain replace or further their "fathers" work. The Dunyain produce one Dunyain son and maybe let the rest run amok. Kayutus is Kellhus' true son and the war with the consult will most likely last the next 10 years. When maybe Kayutus must continue the work of his father.
The bonding to gather a second soul is totally a Dunyain tactic, Moe Sr. Used Cnaiir as such, a bond that makes a man cross the known world for that Dunyain (to make Meppa) . Kellhus may have this tactic on Serwa, she knew in her heart he was god on earth, true devotion. Kellhus has Akka in his hooks as well, we've seen his "Fear and loathing in Earwa" adventure just because he has been cockolded. And Serwe maybe be doing the same to Moe II and Sorweel.
The Dunyain do work in a pattern it seems.     
Title: Re: Moenghus the Elder's (Other) Children
Post by: mrganondorf on October 21, 2015, 05:57:30 pm
The twin idea is interesting but Moe Sr. Was 30 years older then Kellhus. maithnet is proof of his older age because at the beginning of TDTCB Kellhus is 30 and is but on the circumfix at 33. (Like our good buddy Jesus who died at 33.)
I think the Dunyain replace or further their "fathers" work. The Dunyain produce one Dunyain son and maybe let the rest run amok. Kayutus is Kellhus' true son and the war with the consult will most likely last the next 10 years. When maybe Kayutus must continue the work of his father.
The bonding to gather a second soul is totally a Dunyain tactic, Moe Sr. Used Cnaiir as such, a bond that makes a man cross the known world for that Dunyain (to make Meppa) . Kellhus may have this tactic on Serwa, she knew in her heart he was god on earth, true devotion. Kellhus has Akka in his hooks as well, we've seen his "Fear and loathing in Earwa" adventure just because he has been cockolded. And Serwe maybe be doing the same to Moe II and Sorweel.
The Dunyain do work in a pattern it seems.     

you got me thinking--if Dunyain literally have 2 souls, maybe the explanation for Meppa is that he is 'half' of Moe.  as in just 1 of Moe's souls escaped.  Moe could have done this to himself knowingly.  if being dunyain+cishaurim is not a winning combo, he could jettison all of the problem bits.  i wonder if Meppa is the successful, predicted end or not?  it could be that Moe hid memories from his Meppa-self the same way Zaphod did in The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy