[TUC SPOILERS] Thoughts about the overall story, ending etc

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H

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« Reply #165 on: July 12, 2017, 01:28:38 pm »
A random question I've often asked of these books is whether ANYONE goes to paradise.

There is that one quotation about the sighs of the saints and the shrieks of the sinners sounding exactly the same...is Psatma experiencing anything different from what Akka has to look forward to?  Are there actually any Heavens, or just endless Hells?

The way Sorweel dies, has me thing he is actually taken in by Yatwer, but indeed, this is something we don't really know.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #166 on: July 12, 2017, 01:31:30 pm »
Even if I stick to the facts of Kellhus salted-Kelmomas in the Carapace-Second Apocalypse started damned ( ;D ) if I know how these things went on.
:D

A random question I've often asked of these books is whether ANYONE goes to paradise.

There is that one quotation about the sighs of the saints and the shrieks of the sinners sounding exactly the same...is Psatma experiencing anything different from what Akka has to look forward to?  Are there actually any Heavens, or just endless Hells?
I dont think the nature of Earwa precludes the existence of heaven, but I don't think current time-space Earwa has such a thing.

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Cuttlefish

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« Reply #167 on: July 12, 2017, 01:35:38 pm »
A random question I've often asked of these books is whether ANYONE goes to paradise.

There is that one quotation about the sighs of the saints and the shrieks of the sinners sounding exactly the same...is Psatma experiencing anything different from what Akka has to look forward to?  Are there actually any Heavens, or just endless Hells?

Sorweel's death, I think, is the closest thing to a heaven that we've yet seen; it's not quite clear where he goes, but so far, that was the only benevolent description of an afterlife sequence, I think.

Mimara sees herself as holy, though, doesn't she? Presumably, she'll go to heaven.

But if it is the God of Gods who decides who goes to heaven or hell, I am not sure he is a nice God of Gods; unforgiving to the point of hostility. If even poor Serwe has gone to hell (that's what Kellhus claims, anyhow), what chance does anyone have? What chance would we, the readers have, if we were born in Earwa?

Hiro

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« Reply #168 on: July 12, 2017, 01:38:35 pm »


I think there's a difference though: Serious Literature scholars focus on the interpretations of clear texts.
We are more in a Gene Wolfe situation here: trying to understand "what" happened on the page.
What I do worry about is the speculations about possible time-line / time-travelling / Outside-metaphysical story solutions. The question for me is not just 'is that possible,' but 'is that interesting?' For the moment, such a solution would disappoint me, that would cross the line from (possibly overly) complicated or convoluted to contrived.

Quote
Why? Why does that dominate anything or make anything contrived or convoluted? This series has been a metaphysical tale between a world (Earwa) and its hell/heaven(Outside). If Kellhus has been talking to himself since the Circumfix and guiding the TT, it makes perfect sense that after being salted he is now in the Outside, possibly as part of his plan. Not saying its how he wanted it to go down for sure, but him being on the Outside and still in the game is absolutely no way contrived. Its textual proof if anything.
Textual proof in these tales have been known to raise discussion, you might have noticed. ;)

What is a red herring and what not? A lot of people have defended this or that theory. I'm looking at it from what I would find interesting to read ánd what would fit thematically. Failure, the blindness of ignorance and the impossibility of omniscience are themes that underline all these books.

Perhaps you find it satisfactory, for me, if the way to 'solve' or 'develop' the story is to involve metaphysics that would somehow justify time-line and Outside influence from the main character in retrospect to himself, just to make sure he's more faultless than we can imagine, I don't find that particularly interesting as a narrative and even less interesting as a character. What would the point be? 'Look how cool Kellhus is?' Isn't is much more interesting how Kellhus fails and to find out the consequences of that failure?
Mystery denotes darkness

generalguy

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« Reply #169 on: July 12, 2017, 01:42:56 pm »
Disappointed in TUC mostly because it feels a bit too head-up-its-own-ass w.r.t the writing style and reveals.

Sometimes you just want it spelled out for you, rather than hidden in allusions, epithets and metaphors. It took me quite a bit to work out who the hell the blind singer was supposed to be, and even now I'm not entirely clear what's going on in those passages, for example.

I expected more fleshing out of what the No-God is rather than yet more questions.

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« Reply #170 on: July 12, 2017, 01:52:29 pm »
I expected more fleshing out of what the No-God is rather than yet more questions.

That was one of the few things I thought we actually did learn though...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Walter

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« Reply #171 on: July 12, 2017, 01:58:22 pm »
Disappointed in TUC mostly because it feels a bit too head-up-its-own-ass w.r.t the writing style and reveals.

Sometimes you just want it spelled out for you, rather than hidden in allusions, epithets and metaphors. It took me quite a bit to work out who the hell the blind singer was supposed to be, and even now I'm not entirely clear what's going on in those passages, for example.

I expected more fleshing out of what the No-God is rather than yet more questions.

I think the Blind Singer was Iyokus, right, and the No-God is Kelmomas?

Wilshire

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« Reply #172 on: July 12, 2017, 01:59:27 pm »


I think there's a difference though: Serious Literature scholars focus on the interpretations of clear texts.
We are more in a Gene Wolfe situation here: trying to understand "what" happened on the page.
What I do worry about is the speculations about possible time-line / time-travelling / Outside-metaphysical story solutions. The question for me is not just 'is that possible,' but 'is that interesting?' For the moment, such a solution would disappoint me, that would cross the line from (possibly overly) complicated or convoluted to contrived.

Quote
Why? Why does that dominate anything or make anything contrived or convoluted? This series has been a metaphysical tale between a world (Earwa) and its hell/heaven(Outside). If Kellhus has been talking to himself since the Circumfix and guiding the TT, it makes perfect sense that after being salted he is now in the Outside, possibly as part of his plan. Not saying its how he wanted it to go down for sure, but him being on the Outside and still in the game is absolutely no way contrived. Its textual proof if anything.
Textual proof in these tales have been known to raise discussion, you might have noticed. ;)

What is a red herring and what not? A lot of people have defended this or that theory. I'm looking at it from what I would find interesting to read ánd what would fit thematically. Failure, the blindness of ignorance and the impossibility of omniscience are themes that underline all these books.

Perhaps you find it satisfactory, for me, if the way to 'solve' or 'develop' the story is to involve metaphysics that would somehow justify time-line and Outside influence from the main character in retrospect to himself, just to make sure he's more faultless than we can imagine, I don't find that particularly interesting as a narrative and even less interesting as a character. What would the point be? 'Look how cool Kellhus is?' Isn't is much more interesting how Kellhus fails and to find out the consequences of that failure?


I think Hiro sums my own stance up pretty well.

The story is a lot more meaningful to me when looked at from the overall perspective of 'the guy you think is winning just lost'. The story loses a lot of interest when its shoehorned into a more typical fantasy Hero arc ‘normal guy gains great power, defeats evil’. Both are obviously over simplifications, but I think those two choices are what it boils down to. And yes, we can all find supporting information for any theory we develop, after all, they come from somewhere lol. For me though, its starting to come down to why did Bakker writer this story? Given his various extra-Earwa works that I have read, I think my interpretation fits better.

Which isn’t to preclude or dismiss all others. I do get that there’s other possibilities, and at least the Meta-Kellhus narrative is far, far more interesting (to me) and supported much better in text (as far as I can tell) than the other various meta-moe theories. I can get behind them and they're worth hashing through as 'what-ifs'. But really, for me at this point, this discussion really branches out drastically. Different topics for each I think would yield more interesting results than one battle royal topic of disproving all others ;) .
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 02:01:41 pm by Wilshire »
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generalguy

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« Reply #173 on: July 12, 2017, 03:00:39 pm »
I expected more fleshing out of what the No-God is rather than yet more questions.

That was one of the few things I thought we actually did learn though...

Not really. We already knew that its purpose was to seal the world from the outside. All that we really learned was that it needs an Anasurimbor (why?) and it's a "prostheses" of the Ark itself--whatever that means. And then a bunch more questions regarding the "progenitors" and some waffling about the "absolute"

It's still not clear why the No-God exists as it does, why it needs an anasurimbor to pilot it (or what the pilot does) and the "code"/"system" framing hasn't been explained in the slightest.

A little more explanation from the dunyain-consult and a little less Radiation Victim Fucking would have gone a long way. I mean it is the end of the 4 book series.

And on that:

Why was the whole first half even necessary? To damn the souls of the ordealmen? Why?

What the hell was going on with the nonmen in the battle? Did they get confused and start attacking the ordeal?

What is/was kellhus' plan? Why did he even do what he does with the Ordeal? The ajokli pact gets like a sentence or two and is dropped and even then is viewed through a head on a string cursing Likaro. It totally changes Kellhus as an agent and is barely covered.

(What was the point of Akka and Mimara journeying to the Ark beyond exposition? What were they gonna do there? The Consult clearly was protecting Mimara but why?)

I need a recap, I am just more confused frankly.


« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 03:07:29 pm by generalguy »

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« Reply #174 on: July 12, 2017, 03:09:41 pm »
Disappointed in TUC mostly because it feels a bit too head-up-its-own-ass w.r.t the writing style and reveals.

Sometimes you just want it spelled out for you, rather than hidden in allusions, epithets and metaphors. It took me quite a bit to work out who the hell the blind singer was supposed to be, and even now I'm not entirely clear what's going on in those passages, for example.

I expected more fleshing out of what the No-God is rather than yet more questions.

I think the Blind Singer was Iyokus, right, and the No-God is Kelmomas?

Yeah that's my take.

Kelmomas being the No-God is foreshadowed with his god-blindness but I guess prior to him being the no-god it's explained away by God-entanglement but like is the No-God the black sarcophagus thing or the person inside it? What do they even do?

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« Reply #175 on: July 12, 2017, 03:14:40 pm »
Not really. We already knew that its purpose was to seal the world from the outside. All that we really learned was that it needs an Anasurimbor (why?) and it's a "prostheses" of the Ark itself--whatever that means. And then a bunch more questions regarding the "progenitors" and some waffling about the "absolute"

It's still not clear why the No-God exists as it does, why it needs an anasurimbor to pilot it (or what the pilot does) and the "code"/"system" framing hasn't been explained in the slightest.

True, but that may well be world-building bottom, for all we know.  I was actually pretty please with what we did learn on that though.

A little more explanation from the dunyain-consult and a little less Radiation Victim Fucking would have gone a long way. I mean it is the end of the 4 book series.

And on that:

Why was the whole first half even necessary? To damn the souls of the ordealmen? Why?

What the hell was going on with the nonmen in the battle? Did they get confused and start attacking the ordeal?

What is/was kellhus' plan? Why did he even do what he does with the Ordeal? The ajokli pact gets like a sentence or two and is dropped and even then is viewed through a head on a string cursing Likaro. It totally changes Kellhus as an agent and is barely covered.

(What was the point of Akka and Mimara journeying to the Ark beyond exposition? What were they gonna do there? The Consult clearly was protecting Mimara but why?)

I need a recap, I am just more confused frankly.

I think the idea is that the Ordeal is a sacrifice to Ajokli.  Lots of tasty souls in the bargain with Kellhus.  Basically, the cost of Kellhus enlisting his help.  I think this is why they needed to be depraved and damned.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #176 on: July 12, 2017, 03:47:33 pm »
The Consult clearly was protecting Mimara but why?

I almost forgot about the Soma/Koll skin-spy protecting Mimara, another thing that got dropped without explanation.
It was one of the reason why I thought her and Esmenet genetically special in some way (even in flashback we never see or learn anything about Esmenet's father or Mimara's).

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« Reply #177 on: July 12, 2017, 03:52:13 pm »
The Consult clearly was protecting Mimara but why?

I almost forgot about the Soma/Koll skin-spy protecting Mimara, another thing that got dropped without explanation.
It was one of the reason why I thought her and Esmenet genetically special in some way (even in flashback we never see or learn anything about Esmenet's father or Mimara's).

Presumably because they knew they needed an Anasûrimbor to put in the Sarcophagus.  Just in case better to have extra ones, even if they aren't "genuine" ones.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Walter

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« Reply #178 on: July 12, 2017, 04:23:24 pm »
I'll take a stab at some of these:

1: Skin spy protecting Mimara:
I think this gets more thought than it needs.  Like, Aurang gets called out to the middle of nowhere by a skin spy.  I think he just makes a snap judgement that whatever they are up to can't be bad for Team Consult, but maybe if Akka finds out about the Dunyain and shares the info this could hurt the Ordeal's morale.  (worth noting, from Consult POV all prophecies are ultimately 'false', since the No-God will rewrite destiny when activated.)

2: Ordeal in general:
Once again, I think the surface level is the only one we need to worry about.  They are there to destroy the Consult's minions, keep Kellhus from having to fight Erratics and Wracu while he unleashes Ajokli on the leadership.

3: Ordeal's rape, eat each other and such:
Again, I don't want to read deep here.  They were going mad with Sranc, the atrocities were the only way to keep them heading the right direction, betraying Proyas afterwards was useful for fixing their morale.

4: Kellhus' plan
Pretty much what we see:  He intends to destroy the Consult, thus aborting the No-God and saving mankind.  He means to use his army to defeat theirs, and Ajokli to destroy their leadership, having reasoned that the Golden Room will be an uber Topos.

Wilshire

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« Reply #179 on: July 12, 2017, 04:37:36 pm »
4: Kellhus' plan
Pretty much what we see:  He intends to destroy the Consult, thus aborting the No-God and saving mankind.  He means to use his army to defeat theirs, and Ajokli to destroy their leadership, having reasoned that the Golden Room will be an uber Topos.
To add - Kellhus guessed he'd be in a room filled with Dunyain. He needed something more than himself to take them out - a God.
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