The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Prince of Nothing => The Almanac: PON Edition => Topic started by: H on December 18, 2015, 03:13:00 pm

Title: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 18, 2015, 03:13:00 pm
Just finished chapter 1.

Quote
Staring at Serwë, not because she reminded him of Esmi—as he told himself—but because the way she stared at Kellhus worried him—as though she knew something …

Hmm, seemingly more evidence to the Serwë as being central to Kellhus' eventually prophet status.

Quote
“How is it that … that you see these things? No matter how deep I peer …”
“Ah,” Kellhus laughed. “You’re starting to sound like my father’s tutors.”

His father's tutors?  So, the Pragma?

Quote
Who am I? he would often think, listening to Kellhus’s melodious voice. What do you see?

This is a curious quote...foreshadowing perhaps?
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 18, 2015, 03:31:55 pm
We are a bit ahead. Next week is for part 5, and the week after that is TWP, which we never fully decided how to break it down...
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 18, 2015, 04:19:04 pm
We are a bit ahead. Next week is for part 5, and the week after that is TWP, which we never fully decided how to break it down...

Yeah, I just figured I'd get the ball rolling in case anyone was feeling ambitious and wanted to get ahead a bit maybe.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on December 18, 2015, 04:46:12 pm
Wtf guys! Originally we were going to start in January, now we'll be done with PoN by new year's?

Haha its all good, just maybe slow down a little. I think we should let The Darkness reread marinate a bit, maybe with a wrap up thread or even a podcast.

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Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 18, 2015, 05:54:26 pm
Wtf guys! Originally we were going to start in January, now we'll be done with PoN by new year's?

Haha its all good, just maybe slow down a little. I think we should let The Darkness reread marinate a bit, maybe with a wrap up thread or even a podcast.

New Year?  Nah, I've been on about a chapter a weekday.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 18, 2015, 06:21:19 pm
I'm with you H, but I've refrained from opening TWP. We agreed to a format when we started this, and if a few of us get ahead and discuss everything ahead of the majority, I believe we'll lose the little interest we have in the reread. I agree with Bolivar, we should let it marinate and others to catch up. Or, slog on through if that doesn't suit your tastes.  ;D
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 18, 2015, 06:48:12 pm
Read as you will, but I'm with MSJ. Classic forum, alienating outsiders.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on December 22, 2015, 03:33:54 pm
Has anyone posted something in r/fantasy about the reread? I did a quick search and didn't find anything. I feel like that's the main place we should be posting to reach as many people who might be interested as possible. Let me know if not, and I'll PM their mods to make sure we wouldn't be breaking any self-promotion rules.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on December 22, 2015, 05:50:02 pm
I did (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/3v0edg/the_second_apocalypse_reread/), Bolivar. Mixed upvotes - and upvotes, not recency, forge reality there so it probably didn't stay on the main page too long. One member gained, though I've not seen Maiev post yet.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on December 23, 2015, 11:23:14 pm
Gotcha. Reddit can be a tough nut to crack, I'll try to upvote and comment more in the future. I also think we should try to get Bakker to do an AMA when the release approaches, if he's up to it. Might have to coordinate it in advance, it seems like they have the schedule planned out for the next few months.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on December 23, 2015, 11:48:02 pm
There are a couple things I've talked to Bakker about in that regard. But probably, if those ideas don't pan out, we'll get the Fantasy Hotlist excerpt, Grimdark Magazine's excerpt, Somnambulist's book trailer, and - if I had to guess - an interview with Pat from Fantasy Hotlist. Someone suggested a Reddit AMA on Bakker's blog awhile ago (probably MG) but Bakker never responded positively.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 29, 2015, 02:38:16 pm
AMA is too much like direct fan outreach. It'll never happen. But the list Madness wrote above makes for a lot of events in 2016.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on January 02, 2016, 03:37:47 pm
Based on the arbitrary rubric of dates: Tomorrow's the day to begin again.

Still hoping a Cast gets organized and scheduled for TDTCB.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: geoffrobro on January 02, 2016, 07:09:09 pm
If there is every a cast contact me so I can make sure I'm free. This reread has opened a lot of stuff and ideas
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on January 02, 2016, 07:18:12 pm
Well, we've been trying to organize a Cast for TDTCB portion of the reread - though, I guess I need be more explicit with this request (like it's own thread or something). MSJ and you have both expressed interest in a Cast (for MSJ's part, I'm not sure he explicitly meant a Cast or the reread Casts).

I'd love to do either but I think a reread Cast should be the next one done.

As it stands, H and Bolivar have signed-on for TDTCB reread Cast but we haven't been able to organize and execute as of yet. I think I'll send out another PM to the five of you now and we'll see what scheduling comes.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on January 04, 2016, 03:14:44 pm
Ah, I was worried the slog was lost, but today, according to made citing the schedule we half made, this week begins TWP.

Slog well.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on January 04, 2016, 05:34:49 pm
Well, Sunday to Saturday - arbitrarily.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on January 04, 2016, 06:21:16 pm
Well, from the What Comes Before,

Quote
Anasûrimbor Kellhus is a monk sent by his order, the Dûnyain, to search for his father, Anasûrimbor Moënghus.

Quote
Kellhus quickly realizes he can turn the man’s thirst for vengeance to his advantage. Claiming to be an assassin sent to murder Moënghus, he asks the Scylvendi to join him on his quest. Overpowered by his hatred, Cnaiür reluctantly agrees, and the two men set out across the Jiünati Steppe. Time and again, Kellhus tries to secure the trust he needs to possess the man, but the barbarian continually rebuffs him. His hatred and penetration are too great.

Wether you want to believe it nor not, there it is. I have never believed it was Kellhus's original mission to kill his father.

This from Cnaüir, eerily similar to how he meets Moe.

Quote
Despite the deranged scale of its ambition, the Dûnyain’s plan seemed to be working. In his dreams, Cnaiür had always come across Moënghus alone. Sometimes there would be words, sometimes not. There would always be bleeding.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on January 04, 2016, 07:59:52 pm
From TTT

"Scrutiny. Calculation.

"It's not in your interest to deceive me." A stone‐faced pause. "Unless ..."

"Unless," Kellhus said, "I've come to assassinate you, as our Dûnyain brothers have decreed ... Is this your apprehension?"

Scrutiny. Calculation.

You have not the power to overcome me."

"But I do, Father."

Damn contradictions piled on contradictions :)
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on January 04, 2016, 09:08:51 pm
I'm getting more no-god vibes from akka.

Thought it was interesting that Akka refers to Anaxphoras(sp?) In the diminutive, which turns out to be Anakka.

An- of course meaning anti. Anti-Akka kills the no-god, Akka becomes him ;).
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on January 04, 2016, 10:07:31 pm
From TTT

"Scrutiny. Calculation.

"It's not in your interest to deceive me." A stone‐faced pause. "Unless ..."

"Unless," Kellhus said, "I've come to assassinate you, as our Dûnyain brothers have decreed ... Is this your apprehension?"

Scrutiny. Calculation.

You have not the power to overcome me."

"But I do, Father."

Damn contradictions piled on contradictions :)

Viramsata. Lie becoming truth. Right before this Moe explains that is exactly what the Thousandfold Thought is. When Kellhus grasped it, he became an assassin. The brothers never decreed it, Kellhus is simply believing his own lies to justify his actions. Viramsata, not contradictions.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on January 07, 2016, 12:52:05 pm
Kellhus explaining Cnaüir's swazond to Esement,

Quote
But the scars, or swazond, don’t celebrate the taking of life, as everyone in the Three Seas seems to assume. They mark the … intersection, you might say, between competing lines of action, the point where one life yields its momentum to another. The fact that Cnaiür, for instance, bears the scars of many means that he walks with the momentum of many. His swazond are far more than his trophies , they’re the record of his reality. Seen through Scylvendi eyes , he’s the single stone that has become an avalanche.

I love this. Madness once said that Cnaüir's swazond could be akin to Karsa Orlong's souls he drags behind him. And this sounds an awful lot just like that. Many-blooded, indeed. A stone that has become an avalanche.

And we know that you can transfer a soul into another. The waathi doll and Seswatha are just two examples. Using Cnaüir's souls to become a God (ascend), or a walking God (Meppa) doesn't strike me as a stretch with the evidence building up on this re-read.

ETA: to clarify, I don't believe Meppa is a God. I meant that he is probably the second most powerful "sorcerer" on Earwa. So, in as much as a walking God.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on January 08, 2016, 12:54:16 pm
Chapter 2:

The evidence piles up that Istriya is already a skin-spy (something I think there is little doubt about anyway):

Quote
“Tell me, Xerius,” his mother said huskily, “how was it that you discovered Skeaös?”

Of course she (it) is curious how they found out the other skin-spy.  In fact, in a way, this is the undoing of the Consult's whole plan here, the spot where we (could) realize that Moënghus really completely outmaneuvered them by having them unwittingly further his Thousand-Fold Thought.

I'm still uncertain of our timeline for the reread of this book, but I'll risk the damnation and plow along, a chapter a day starting next Monday.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on January 08, 2016, 01:16:13 pm
H, well I'm already ahead of schedule. And, the slog has seemed to well, died so to say. I say we just move along and post what we find relevant.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on January 08, 2016, 02:03:53 pm
Post on! I think im around chapter 3 at this point, which puts me behind for the week. Hopefully I'll do smoe catch-up this weekend.

Quote
“Tell me, Xerius,” his mother said huskily, “how was it that you discovered Skeaös?”

Agee with H, this seems very clearly the consult semi-interr-rape-ing him for information.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on January 08, 2016, 02:12:12 pm
H, well I'm already ahead of schedule. And, the slog has seemed to well, died so to say. I say we just move along and post what we find relevant.

Hopefully our soon to be published cast might reinvigorate it some.  I'll be plowing through a bunch more chapters next week, I can usually do about 1-2 each weekdays morning so I think I can finish part one by next Friday.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on January 08, 2016, 03:00:39 pm
I'm just finishing a book before moving onto TWP.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: morkypep on January 09, 2016, 03:37:20 am
I was stricken with a reinvigorated love for the books over the christmas break, and i ripped through half of TWP. Gonna stop and let you guys catch up.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on January 11, 2016, 12:25:43 pm
Chapter 3:

We begin with an earthquake that levels Ruöm.  Natural, or was this perhaps Moe's doing?

Later, Eleäzaras tells us:

Quote
the Mandate playing some arcane Gnostic game every single Spires agent in Sumna uncovered and executed—even though they seemed secure enough before the Scarlet Spires set foot in the Empire.

So, it is not just the Mandate's agents being picked off, but the Spires as well.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on January 11, 2016, 04:07:29 pm

Chapter 3:

We begin with an earthquake that levels Ruöm.  Natural, or was this perhaps Moe's doing?

Later, Eleäzaras tells us:

Quote
the Mandate playing some arcane Gnostic game every single Spires agent in Sumna uncovered and executed—even though they seemed secure enough before the Scarlet Spires set foot in the Empire.

So, it is not just the Mandate's agents being picked off, but the Spires as well.
thats just maithanet cleaning house. Like finding a pretext to send sarcellus to the holy war


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Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on January 11, 2016, 06:57:35 pm
Chapter 3:

We begin with an earthquake that levels Ruöm.  Natural, or was this perhaps Moe's doing?

Later, Eleäzaras tells us:

Quote
the Mandate playing some arcane Gnostic game every single Spires agent in Sumna uncovered and executed—even though they seemed secure enough before the Scarlet Spires set foot in the Empire.

So, it is not just the Mandate's agents being picked off, but the Spires as well.

I was wondering if it was natural or not myself. Possibly to delay the early gatherers of the Holy War to ensure the stragglers make it together, knowing how slow the Spires move. Or if it was meant to frustrate them.

Interestingly, it seems the only agents to survive in the Thousand Temples were the Consult's, as the Skin Spies knew of the secret treaty with the Scarlet Spires. The Fanim knew as well but that was likely because of Moenghus. Inrau learned of it as well, with just enough time to inform Achamian before being executed.

Some things that stood out to me:

Saubon singlehandedly turning back the Coyauri. As impressive as it is unlikely, as Iyokus says, although it's corroborated by every eye witness.

None of the Fanim captives knew who the Cishaurim were at Mengedda. Possibly sent by Moenghus to help fulfill Kellhus' prophecy?
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on January 12, 2016, 01:01:02 pm
Chapter 4:

Quote
What would you have me do, Father?

Kellhus seems to endlessly implore his father's advice, which would certainly seem odd if it really was his plan the whole time to kill him.

Quote
“How could they believe such a thing?” she asked. “The sun moves in circles about the world. The stars move in circles about the Nail.”

Not of any real importance, but shouldn't Akka know that Earwa must revolve around the Sun and not the reverse?  It would seem that this would have already been figured out.   Unless, somehow, it's true that Earwa is somehow not heliocentric?

Quote
“I made no decision. You know that. I told Saubon only …”
...
He speaks in hidden cues, Cnaiür reminded himself. He wars against all of us!
“Only what I see,” Kellhus said.

For a moment there, Kellhus almost tells him that he said only what Saubon what he wanted to hear, but composes himself.

Also went through Chapter 5, which is probably best summarized as the point at which Kellhus' "prophecy" is made real, as Saubon says, “I believe what I need to.”
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on January 13, 2016, 12:17:50 pm
Chapter 6:

We learn about topoi and how the battleplain serves as one.

Also, about how the No-God seems to interact with souls:

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“‘The soul that encounters Him,’” the Schoolman continued, “‘passes no further.’”

I have always taken this to mean that souls with the No-God around are captured and held, which is why it answers the problem of damnation.

Chapter 7:

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It lowered its small human head and studied the patterns the innumerable dead had sketched across the plains, marvelling at the resemblances to certain sigils once prized by its species—back when they could actually be called such. Genera. Species. Race.

This is interesting, perhaps confirming what I had speculated in this thread (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1667.0) that each Inchoroi could now be very different from each other, through the selective use of the grafts.

Quote
Golgotterath would approve.

So who else is left there?  A&A, Shae, but this quote seems to imply there are more Consult members there.

Quote
TELL ME
Secrets … Secrets! Not even the No-God could build walls against what was forgotten! Seswatha glimpsed the unholy Carapace shining in the whirlwind’s heart, a nimil sarcophagus sheathed in choric script, hanging …
WHAT AM—

We also learn that the topoi doesn't effect everyone equally.  Kellhus does not dream, nor do Proyas and Gothyelk.  Certainty provides a resistance?

Chapter 8:

Quote
“We are old, Anasûrimbor, very, very old. Age is power in this world.”

It still remains a mystery as to if the skin-spies speak of their own age, or the collective age of the Consult.

And so on to Part 2...
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on February 22, 2016, 02:15:30 pm
Almost made it through the first march. There is a lot of good stuff here, but I didn't write most of it down lol.

Saubon and his belief, noted above "I believe what I need to", stood out to me inparticular.

Also, on Cish, we get a nice view of their magic. It seems to me that they are somewhere between analogies and abstractions. The way their magics move remind me of the 'glittering geometries' of the gnosis somehow, but still partially confined within analogies.

I'd also like to note that the God (Solitary?) Inri, when they camp in the hills, is depicted with halos around his hands. Esmenet mentions it specifically. This shows at least some cultural pretext for those who see them on kellhus.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on February 22, 2016, 02:21:30 pm
Almost made it through the first march. There is a lot of good stuff here, but I didn't write most of it down lol.

Saubon and his belief, noted above "I believe what I need to", stood out to me inparticular.

Also, on Cish, we get a nice view of their magic. It seems to me that they are somewhere between analogies and abstractions. The way their magics move remind me of the 'glittering geometries' of the gnosis somehow, but still partially confined within analogies.

I'd also like to note that the God (Solitary?) When they camp in the hills, is depicted with halos around his hands. Esmenet mentions it specifically. This shows at least some cultural pretext for those who see them on kellhus.

Welcome back to the Slog.

Quote
They picked their way through blocks of stone, then clambered over the heaped walls, where they found a mosaic floor depicting Inri Sejenus, his head buried in debris, his two haloed hands outstretched ...

It is indeed Inri that is depicted and this is mentioned later several more times.  The Jesus-Inri-Kellhus sort of connection seems very deliberate.
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: nicodante on February 23, 2016, 12:34:41 pm
I'm catching up :) I can't find the thread for the second March so posting here - look at this excerpt from the beginning of the March, just after Hinnereth - did Kellhus start planning the circumfixion that soon??

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160223/d1e375a427aa2f89ab41382f4a6bb0e5.jpg)


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Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: H on February 23, 2016, 12:43:53 pm
I'm catching up :) I can't find the thread for the second March so posting here - look at this excerpt from the beginning of the March, just after Hinnereth - did Kellhus start planning the circumfixion that soon??

It seems so, yes.  At least, in part.

Second March thread here (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1673.msg23910#msg23910).
Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: nicodante on February 23, 2016, 12:45:56 pm
This was before Akka was taken - I wonder if he planned on seducing esmenet at this point - or did he predict akka's abductikn also??


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Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: nicodante on February 23, 2016, 12:57:26 pm
Ah, found discussion of this in the proper thread now lol - tapatalk wasn't showing me the second March thread at all for some reason :P


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Title: Re: The Slog TWP - Part One: The First March [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on February 23, 2016, 01:30:43 pm
The tapatalk version was slightly out of date. Hopefully, the most recent update solves any problems you've been experiencing, nicodante :).