[TUC Spoilers]Deus Ex Machina - Implausibilities - Running out of Steam

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Cnaiür vs Karsa vs Drogo

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« Reply #105 on: August 02, 2017, 03:50:23 am »
Why after feeling being in a room with 100 chorae attached skin spies Kellhus just decides to hang around? And since it takes Kellhus at least a second to teleport out, why would he risk overstaying his welcome when the skin spies have supernatural physical abilities?

If Kellhus had died to TWLW in TGO it would have at least had a decent buildup, and there would have be a finality to it.

he's been slicing up skin spies since book one. he fought dozens in that great chase scene in (i think) TTT. the more interesting question is how did he pin the chorae to the floor-ae?
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Dunkelheit

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« Reply #106 on: August 02, 2017, 10:22:37 am »
Aurax was presumably tortured by the Dunyain into obeisance. I don't know how you torture an Inchoroi without just getting them off but hey Dunyain are basically magic.

Well, we have seen that you can force someone to act whatever way you please with magic, and that creates patters in your brain that some keep following even when you are no longer under the spell. And Dunyain can do magic at much higher levels than regular sorcerers. They also like to stick needles in peoples brains and control them that way. I'm guessing some combination of this.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #107 on: August 02, 2017, 12:50:24 pm »
Ah. Overpowered and metagnostic agonies. That would make sense. Though contradicts their story that only Shauriatas resisted.

Kellhus didn't fear the chorae because they were meaningless to him. Kellhus-as-Ajokli is the sole measure of reality in that room, with Hell seeping out of him. They can't undue his sorcery because his sorcery is no longer a perversion of reality. Rather reality is just an extension of his will. Just like the Wight-in-the-Mountain at Cil Aujas. Until Kelmomas startles Ajokli out of him.

I am rather disappointed that for all their graftings, millenia of flawless memory and meaning, and allegedly alien minds, Inchoroi are just regular sorcerers. Seems to contradict earlier established estimates of their power.

MSJ

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« Reply #108 on: August 02, 2017, 02:14:30 pm »
Quote from:  The Sharmat
I am rather disappointed that for all their graftings, millenia of flawless memory and meaning, and allegedly alien minds, Inchoroi are just regular sorcerers. Seems to contradict earlier established estimates of their power.

I didn't see it that way. At Dagliash, Sacarress(sp?) throws a Cant at Aurang as Seswatha and it is like a little fly he swatted away. I think it just demonstrated how powerful Kellhus had become. As for Mek, what chance does he have against a God? Not much.

Aurax, i took to be brooding over the loss of his brother, now he's the last Inchie. And, i think there might be something to Shae is the Mutilated theory, especially when Bakker responds by RAFO.

But, yea, i get your point. On a whole, it did feel a bit of a letdown. But, when you look at through the lens of what it actually was...makes sense.

[EDIT Madness: Fixed your quote tag.]
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 02:48:57 pm by Madness »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Monkhound

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« Reply #109 on: August 02, 2017, 04:33:11 pm »
My two kellics to the discussion: I don't agree with the suggestion of a DEM. Nearly everything was explained or hinted at in advance. Yeteven with all the hints, we still got surprised by the way of the ending.

How Kel got through the crowd:
I think TGO demonstrated fairly well how the Narindar observed by Kel moves unseen through crowds. It's not unreasonable to assume Kel picked up the skill as well.
How he got through the Ark, was probably the same way Serwa was going to use. Note  that how when the young Ainoni with the Cindersword arrives at the gate of Skuthula, the gate is already open. When the Kayutas and the Mandate arrive, the gate is closed.  I'm currently assuming either Kel passed through just before the young Ainoni arrived, or that we were deceived and that Kel was the Ainoni under a glammer. I mean: the guy killed off a Tall in a few sentences. But I'm more inclined to the prior option.

Concerning Kellhus's power:
We get multiple descriptions of Kellhus's Mark throughout TAE. I got the impression it got deeper and deeper, and more blasted throughout the series, based on the subtle difference in adjectives used in the PoV of other protagonists throughout the series. I've entertained for long the possibility that Kellhus was either having people (Zaudunyani) killed to become more powerful himself (souls basically being dinner) in the Outside, resulting in more powerful magic.
After TUC, I'm expecting him having to sacrifice the Ordeal as a whole, as damned and deceived as possible (remember the Meat), was the price for Ajokli's assistance (since there'd be more dinner for him). I'd even go as far as suggesting that the sacrifice of the whole "maxxed out damned" and deceived (!!) ordeal was a necessity for Ajokli to assist Kellhus, which is why we in my perception get the horrific passages of the Ordeal going bananas both in TGO and TUC.
Proyas is in that case indeed "saved" from being served as dinner to Ajokli by Kellhus, by being told about the deception, albeit out of necessity. The way we see Kellhus apologising to him in TUC in my opinion shows Kellhus's true (Dunyain vestigial) emotions in his love for Proyas.
The same I think goes for Esmenet: Through deduction based on Ajokli's perspective of time/ events, he sees what is going to happen in Momemn and he puts everything at risk to save her, unwittingly causing his endeavor to fail by bringing along Kelmomas.

I agree hints have ben given throughout TAE that Kellhus had mastered the Daimos. The whole head on a pole sequence, rumours throughout TJE from the "foreign" protagonists, and even through Malowebi in his first TUC PoV. We even know he's been to the Outside through the Head on a Pole passage in TGO. The fact that he's made a deal with one of the gods was, in my opinion, extremely probable.

And the biggest "damn, I should've seen that coming during the whole TAE" was the joke of the Celmomian Prophecy: Even the Dunyain didn't get that one. Kellhus could never become the No-God.
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

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« Reply #110 on: August 02, 2017, 04:34:37 pm »
Oh hey, on topic:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl21toa/

Explicitly address the dues ex machina bit, which I think mirrors what has been said here, but maybe when it comes straight from horses mouth it feels better.

Love the question put forth by Bakker at the end there:
Quote
The question is what do you do next. Do you rationalize, chalk your narrative frustration up to my failure, or do you open yourself up to a new kind of narrative experience. Either I've failed you, or I've shown you a new way to experience meaning. Although I totally understand why people opt for the first, I just don't see what they gain from it.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 04:36:27 pm by Wilshire »
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #111 on: August 02, 2017, 04:47:04 pm »
Of course, that's also what an author that failed would say  :P

Rots

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« Reply #112 on: August 02, 2017, 05:09:36 pm »
Of course, that's also what an author that failed would say  :P

Ha, beat me to it. That is awful convenient to say..

Makes perfect sense. Thanks for the response.
That means your planning on coming to Zaudunyanicon right? I kid ;)

Not kidding, you should come to Zaudunyanicon, Rots!

I would but its in the great white north, yes? I hope you all have a great time bouncing nerdanels off of one another!

[EDIT Madness: Fixed quote tag.]
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 05:28:07 pm by Madness »

The Sharmat

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« Reply #113 on: August 02, 2017, 05:21:20 pm »
And the biggest "damn, I should've seen that coming during the whole TAE" was the joke of the Celmomian Prophecy: Even the Dunyain didn't get that one. Kellhus could never become the No-God.
I called it.

Ajokli demanding the damnation of the Ordeal would make a kind of sense. Wasn't Proyas described as going to Hell, though?

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« Reply #114 on: August 02, 2017, 05:31:39 pm »
Of course, that's also what an author that failed would say  :P

Ha, beat me to it. That is awful convenient to say..

I think the full quote does Bakker's response more justice, though either way I don't think he failed nor do I think someone who failed in his place would come up with an as articulate response:

Quote from: Bakker
I'm not sure I get your use of deus ex machina, since this refers to saving the day via arbitrary plot mechanisms. This is bad because it's lazy. The way you use it, it applies to all true-crime fiction, or any form of writing lacking conventional narrative 'closure,' doesn't it? And what's lazy about intentionally delivering readers to points that deny stable interpretation? It's hard bloody work, let me tell you!

Could it be you possess narrative instincts, the way we all do, that balk at the absence of closure? Some find it more difficult than others. And all this means is that you viscerally feel the problem of meaning more keenly than most.

The question is what do you do next. Do you rationalize, chalk your narrative frustration up to my failure, or do you open yourself up to a new kind of narrative experience. Either I've failed you, or I've shown you a new way to experience meaning. Although I totally understand why people opt for the first, I just don't see what they gain from it.

I would but its in the great white north, yes? I hope you all have a great time bouncing nerdanels off of one another!

If Ishoiya last year is any indication, it'll be less discussing Bakker and the books and more bacchanal (though, we drew the line at cannabalism and orgiastic excesses ;)).
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #115 on: August 02, 2017, 05:34:13 pm »
I think there were probably clearer ways to say what he's saying there but then, he is philosophy major.

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« Reply #116 on: August 02, 2017, 05:37:22 pm »
I think there were probably clearer ways to say what he's saying there but then, he is philosophy major.

Dude is High King Obfuscator!
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Rots

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« Reply #117 on: August 02, 2017, 06:37:58 pm »
Quote
If Ishoiya last year is any indication, it'll be less discussing Bakker and the books and more bacchanal (though, we drew the line at cannabalism and orgiastic excesses ;)).

Ha! Knowing when and how to draw the line during a bacchanal is key. I salute your wisdom. :)

Also, i am far less convinced by RSBs answer to this question than you. Which is obviously fine, but i find his response not at all compelling. RAFO as he is fond of saying.. Basically, for me, my disappointment can be boiled down the fact that this was called The Unholy Consult and we got precious little Unholy Consult. That and epic slogs through agongorea = meh. TUC had been sold by RSB as being the final piece of this story as he envisioned it way back when. I was hoping for a bit more meat..and less agongorea filler when it came to the numerous story lines that were left utterly untouched.

Obviously i am happy that the next series seems to be officially official but ill go into it a bit wary for the first time w/his works. I feel like he overplayed his hand here a bit in terms of how TUC was framed/sold as the final piece to this story, and what it delivered.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #118 on: August 02, 2017, 06:47:10 pm »
I am curious as to what the terrible true wickedness of the Consult we were supposed to find out was.

Wilshire

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« Reply #119 on: August 02, 2017, 06:50:36 pm »
Rots I just think that at the bottom of it, we rapidly approach "it is what it is" category, where there's a fundamental disagreement  on the answer because it relies on personal opinion.

 There's no scientific consensus to be reached, my goal is to keep things amicable and conversation flowing. Fail as I might  ;) . His answer, or the but I quoted at least, is totally designed to trap someone into agreeing or admitting defeat.  I find the answer amusing for this, not that I think it brings greater closure for anyone on the opposite side of the fence. :)

Though it is nice to see that there are those here who have correctly guessed what Bakker would say. At least after this much time things are easier to see, if still incomprehensible. Doesn't make one any more "right" than "wrong" though.
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