Wracu

  • 116 Replies
  • 59989 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2013, 12:47:31 am »
Quote from: anor277
Quote from: sciborg2
I wonder what sorcery the Inchies use? Because when Aurang comes for Esmi he says:

Quote
"Walking between Wards is easy," a voice hummed, "when their author practises other arcana."

I'm assuming she was protected by the Gnosis, so I'm assuming Aurang uses the Aporos.

I thinks CC's comments are correct with respect to this snippet.  As far as we know the Mangaecca (which founded the Consult) was and is a Gnostic school. 

Are there aporetic sorcerors in the Consult?  Probably, if 1000's of years of decay has preserved a few of those Nonmen sorcerors that practised the Aporos.  We've yet to hear of any human aporetic sorcerors; maybe Mimara will be one.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2013, 12:47:39 am »
Quote from: Cynical Cat
Quote from: Curethan
My point as to why the wight could not be affected by chorae comes from the fact that he has no sorcerous connection to Earwa, his seal is a gate to the outside - a hole in objective reality rather than a conjured manifestion of the outside injected into the onta.  The aporos negates sorcery, undoes the mark and what remains is unbound from its original form (e.g. sorcerers become salt).
It seems Mimara instead managed to open her own conduit to the outside via the chorae's mechanism and thereby close the wight's gate/seal. 
I don't see any way to relate this to dragons.

And I agree, if what we know about the Outside and chorae is correct.  I expect revelations on this subject by Bakker that will invalidate at least one of my assumptions.  Chorae interfering with Wracu is more likely to be if they are invested with magic as are Mimara's mail, the magic knife, Wrathi Dolls, and so forth.  This would explain the fire spitting and the flying despite their huge mass and size and so forth, but we know so little about Wracu, the Tekne, and how investing sorcery in an object works.

Quote
My assumption of Wracu as souless comes from the fact that the no-god could dominate them as he did with the other weapon races.
 

This is not true.  We saw no dragons shriek the No-God's questions.  Skafra retained his personality and engaged in conversation where he justified his submission to Mog-Pharu.  The No-God may control the Wracu, but their relationship to it isn't the same as that of the Sranc or the Bashrag.  The Wracu may be soulless, but if they are closer to Skin Spies in intelligence and self control.

Quote
The inchies created them (according to TTT glossary) and were able to control them before the no-god, but the consult don't seem to be able to do so. 
Wutteat's status as father of dragons implies they are created from him, but they are more like clones and allies than the other weapon races (which are twisted and bred with inchie limbic control mechanisms installed).
Maybe they do have souls, but they don't seem concerned about damnation and they don't weild sorcery (as we know it).  As products of the tekne I think it unlikely.

Wutteat was concerned about damnation and the conversation regarding dragon bones indicates that they don't possess the same reactions as Sranc or Bashrag, which makes sense.  The other races are cannon fodder, created to fight and die in vast numbers.  Wracu are capable of personally challenging a sorcerer in single combat and are as precious as the Few.  A weapon of such power and rarity is best wielded with intelligence so as to maximize it's effect and minimize foolish losses.  There are also substantial biological differences between Wracu and and the mammalian bipeds that make up the rest of the Weapon Races.  That's going to mean that the same techniques won't work and the Inchoroi's skill at the Tekne has limits.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2013, 12:47:46 am »
Quote from: Madness
Wracu are also among the oldest of the Tekne's creations, which because of the Inchoroi's Regression of Memory, the Tekne creations with the longest pedigree would be most their advanced. That is, of course, until new innovations on the Tekne.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2013, 12:47:53 am »
Quote from: Wilshire
Somewhat related:
If Wutteat is the father of dragons, presumably not created by the Inchoroi , who is he referring to when he says:
"Such things that I remember, Cunuroi! Twisting in the void for sailing ages! Watching my makers descend as locusts upon world after world, reducing each to one hundred and forty-four thousand -- and wailing to find themselves still damned!" -WLW 558

Sounds to me from that passage that the is referring to the inchoroi as his "makers", unless of course its some other race of beings destroying worlds in such a manner.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2013, 12:47:59 am »
Quote from: Curethan
Good points, Cat. 
And that quote is interesting to me, thanks Wilshire.

The wracu certainly do differ from the other weapon races, addistionally they seem to lack the built in 'carnal' control mechanisms the inchies employed in sranc and skin spies (and probably bashrag but II don't really even want to think about that, hehe) .

The fact remains they are not allied with the consult in their pursuit of escaping damnation, which is interesting if they do possess souls. 

CC, you mention their different physiology.  I think that is very important and a good point to consider regarding their abilities and immunity to chorae.  Being a weapon race of extraterrestial origin in Bakkerverse allows them the potential for non-sorcery and non-tekne related powers if we assume that they came from somewhere other than inchie-world. 
The ablity to fly and spew lava simply can't be sorcerous, given that the inchies did not encounter sorcery before they met the non-men.  And the fact that the inchies did not graft these abilities onto themselves (instead using the Wracu as mounts) suggests a level of incompatability with the Tekne.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2013, 12:48:07 am »
Quote from: Wayward Ishroi
The Wracu physiology and imperviousness to sorcery is very similar to Golgotterath itself... Which was hinted at being one giant womb/space-faring living being...

Perhaps there is a connection between the physical characteristics of the Wracu and the Ark of the Inchoroi...

Quote
I WAS THE FIRST TO STEP FROM OUR HALLOWED ARK

Note that Wutteat uses the self possessive, "our," ark... Not the other's possessive, "their," ark...

And also:

Quote
MURDER! MURDER IS OUR SALVATION!

Again with the, "our," salvation... Implying that his goal, too, is avoiding damnation, and that he had/has a soul, or something like it.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2013, 12:48:18 am »
Quote from: Cynical Cat
Quote from: Curethan"

The wracu certainly do differ from the other weapon races, addistionally they seem to lack the built in 'carnal' control mechanisms the inchies employed in sranc and skin spies (and probably bashrag but II don't really even want to think about that, hehe) .

Flashbacks show the Bashrag clearly enjoying Seswetha's pain.

Quote
The fact remains they are not allied with the consult in their pursuit of escaping damnation, which is interesting if they do possess souls. 

They seem to be very independent minded.  Submitting even to the No-God is questionable.  Remember there is a long time, potentially many generations, between the defeat of the Inchoroi and the rise of the Consult.  It's possible most of the dragons of the Consult's time have no direct memory of Inchoroi. 

CC, you mention their different physiology.  I think that is very important and a good point to consider regarding their abilities and immunity to chorae.  Being a weapon race of extraterrestial origin in Bakkerverse allows them the potential for non-sorcery and non-tekne related powers if we assume that they came from somewhere other than inchie-world. 

Quote
The ablity to fly and spew lava simply can't be sorcerous, given that the inchies did not encounter sorcery before they met the non-men.  And the fact that the inchies did not graft these abilities onto themselves (instead using the Wracu as mounts) suggests a level of incompatability with the Tekne.

Perhaps, perhaps not.  There's so little known about the Inchoroi arts that ruling out their ability to interact with the Outside is not something I believe is supportable.  Despite not knowing sorcery, somehow the Inchoroi know they are damned and what they have to do to seal off the Outside.  That's without touching the No-God, which somehow can command all the Weapon Races and prevent new souls from being born. 

As for grafting those abilities onto themselves, there appears to be substantial biological differences between the Inchoroi and the Wracu as well as size differences.  Breathing fire might simply not be compatible with their physiology (or that useful at their size and given the costs/tradeoffs), although they did manage to graft wings.  Didn't grafting the ability to perceive the Onta kill/drive mad most of the Inchoroi who received the graft?

Lastly, there's the puzzling issue of the survival of Atrithau.  The city is apparently located on unarcane ground where sorcery does not work and this is credited with allowing it to survive the Apocalypse.  This only makes sense if unarcane ground is also inhospitable to dragons, because trying to hold off a flight of dragons without sorcery is not something I would want to try.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2013, 12:48:26 am »
Quote from: Borric
My take on this is.
Wracu are biological machines, as are the Skin Spies. And  Sranc, come to that.
Soulless creatures, and the reason the Gods can’t see through them.

Wutteat however was a real dragon taken from another world.
His genome was used to manufacture the rest of the dragons.

Cleric refers to “The Horde” contained within Wutteat before the fight at Sauglish.
That for me, can only mean a collection of souls, i assume he’s a repository for the dead inchys awaiting the end of the world. And there last resort to avoid damnation.
How this was done i don’t know, an internal Topoi some say?.
But that does not work for me.
The Topoi of the wraith in the mountain made more sense, that was an area of the world that had suffered so much torment, and transition from this world to the next, that it weakened the boundaries between worlds. Allowing the wraith to manifest in the physical world. 

I would have thought that was exactly what was not wanted for a safe depository of inchy souls.
They want to be as far from any passage to the outside as possible.
They can’t let Wutteat die until they have victory, how they’re keeping him alive is a mystery.
I don’t think he’s immortal though.
For him to retreat from the fight as sauglish, would suggest he can be destroyed.

Going off on a slight tangent here.
 i think the No-God is pretty much as i have described Wutteat.
A repository for the holding of souls. A self contained outside?
But the gods could not see the No-God, just as they can not see there mechanical minions.
Thats odd, if you think there a collection of souls.
Unless the “WHAT DO YOU SEE” is the gods we are hearing?.
Maybe there blinded by that chorae encased sarcophagus?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2013, 12:48:34 am »
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Wilshire
Sounds to me from that passage that the is referring to the inchoroi as his "makers", unless of course its some other race of beings destroying worlds in such a manner.
He could have been speaking somewhat figuratively. Perhaps referring to them as his makers due to whatever enhancements may have been grafted upon him after they found him? I imagine the older, pre-Earwa Inchoroi would be up for some tweaking; and have the know how and resources too.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2013, 12:48:40 am »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Wilshire
Sounds to me from that passage that the is referring to the inchoroi as his "makers", unless of course its some other race of beings destroying worlds in such a manner.
He could have been speaking somewhat figuratively. Perhaps referring to them as his makers due to whatever enhancements may have been grafted upon him after they found him? I imagine the older, pre-Earwa Inchoroi would be up for some tweaking; and have the know how and resources too.

I guess that is entirely possible but I suppose there isn't a whole lot of textual support either way. More to think on I suppose.

Also:
Quote from: Cynical Cat
Lastly, there's the puzzling issue of the survival of Atrithau.  The city is apparently located on unarcane ground where sorcery does not work and this is credited with allowing it to survive the Apocalypse.  This only makes sense if unarcane ground is also inhospitable to dragons, because trying to hold off a flight of dragons without sorcery is not something I would want to try.

Sorry but this is the first I have heard of this. Could you tell me where unarcane ground is discussed? Sounds rather interesting, and I have wondered how Atrithau has/had survived.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2013, 12:48:46 am »
Quote from: Madness
TTT Glossary:
Atrithau - ... Atrithau is peculiar in that it is built upon what is called "anarcane ground," which is to say, ground that renders sorcery impotent, found at the foot of Mount Ankulakai.

I believe there is also a mention in the books of some kind of meeting between Gods and Men happening at Mount Ankulakai after the Breaking of the Gates.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #41 on: May 07, 2013, 12:49:03 am »
Quote from: themerchant
Ah my mistake i mistook it for Mount Kinsureah

I'll have to look in the books and see.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2013, 12:49:10 am »
Quote from: Callan S.
You'd think someone would have shot a dragon with a chorae arrow at some point. Whatever sorcerous effect would have been disrupted by that.

Maybe they are just too massive to be protected by them?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #43 on: May 07, 2013, 12:49:15 am »
Quote from: Cynical Cat
Quote from: Callan S.
You'd think someone would have shot a dragon with a chorae arrow at some point. Whatever sorcerous effect would have been disrupted by that.

Maybe they are just too massive to be protected by them?

Or that might be the only practicle way to kill them without a siege engine or sorcery.  Their armour is pretty tough so shooting them with a chorae arrow, if a chorae is merely disruptive instead of instantly fatal, could very well be a waste.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #44 on: May 07, 2013, 12:49:21 am »
Quote from: Centurion
I was under the impression that Wutteat lost his eyes as part of the general decay which had rotted away a large part of his body already.  I think it is stated that Wutteat is so old that he should be dead, but the power which drives his body is too powerful to stop animating him even after he is "dead".  Have to go re-read that part now...