The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: Simas Polchias on July 14, 2016, 02:09:09 am
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I was kinda confused about little Kel and his ability to mess with WLW powers; had to made a soothing theory.
1) We knows gods are blind to certain things: No-God existence, Consult plans etc. There is guess that Tekne makes borders of gods' blindspot and, more specifically, it's distinctive product -- intelligence, which lacks "proper" concience or "enough" complexity. Correct me if I wrong here, please.
2) Kelmomas mother had a very close contact with Tekne, I mean than identity theft of Kellhus by Aurang.
3) Being of Kellhus children, Kel is a broken dunyain thing, which by itself has a certain taste of near-Tekne experience.
4) His POVs are all about personality problems, about rule "one head, one voice" being constantly violated.
So at least I reckon Kelmomas is somehow hidden from Gods eyesight thanks to a combination of few factors listed above. At most -- his metaphysical position is symmetricaly opposed to WLW. Either way, boy can fuck up other's plans, especially if they are godly.
PS That can be a possible answer to a question why Kellhus didn't drowned him in the first place.
PPS Dunno now, if Ajokli is an actual trickster god or it's a placeholder name for a sum of gods' debility manifested in the world.
PPPS What have I done. -.-
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I was thinking Kelmomas being invisible to the WLW, and thus Yatwar, had to do with him having two souls. But then I read some good stuff on Kel being a nanidar for Ajolki. Bakker did go out of his way to remind us of Kel killing the beetle before Ajolki's altar which on the surface seems like just a way to show Kel's personality when introducing him, but now we are given hints that it is far more important, else why did Bakker bring it back up?
I think Kel is a defective. Most of his siblings appear defective in some ways. I don't think it has anything to do with Tekne. Kellhus would likely have noticed any of flaw in her potential and wouldn't have bred with her.
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I pitched a theory here (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1783.0) in the ARC subforum that perhaps the Gods are actually blind to self-moving souls. I don't think it has too much to do with being deffective, even though I do have a feeling that Moe, Kellhus, Koringhus, Kel, etc. are in fact all defective in some way, not to mention Inrilatas.
The idea I had was that since to Gods are essentially the Darkness the Comes Before, then they can see the whole chain of cause and effect that guides the world. Kellhus is outside that though, as are other self-moving souls, because they are part the Darkness. I think this is a reason why the Gods are also blind to the Consult and to the No-God as well.
This doesn't preclude that Kel might be "God-entangled" with Ajolki though, but could just be supplemental.
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I pitched a theory here (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1783.0) in the ARC subforum that perhaps the Gods are actually blind to self-moving souls. I don't think it has too much to do with being deffective, even though I do have a feeling that Moe, Kellhus, Koringhus, Kel, etc. are in fact all defective in some way, not to mention Inrilatas.
The idea I had was that since to Gods are essentially the Darkness the Comes Before, then they can see the whole chain of cause and effect that guides the world. Kellhus is outside that though, as are other self-moving souls, because they are part the Darkness. I think this is a reason why the Gods are also blind to the Consult and to the No-God as well.
This doesn't preclude that Kel might be "God-entangled" with Ajolki though, but could just be supplemental.
If the gods are blind to Kellhus then how did the WLW predict Kellhus would be in the throne room at that moment? It was Kelmomas that changed the WLW vision of the future, not Kellhus.
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If the gods are blind to Kellhus then how did the WLW predict Kellhus would be in the throne room at that moment? It was Kelmomas that changed the WLW vision of the future, not Kellhus.
I would imagine that if I am correct (and mind you, I am probably not) that "blind to" more probably means unable to see clearly, or properly read the chain of cause and effect and extrapolate that to fully predict the future. Then again, perhaps you are right, that Yatwer had the right of it and only Kel saved him and so from there everything else is beyond what could have been anticipated.
I do wonder though, going all the way back, why are the Gods blind to the Consult? The theory was an attempt to possibly reconcile that.
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I do wonder though, going all the way back, why are the Gods blind to the Consult? The theory was an attempt to possibly reconcile that.
Does it say anywhere in the text that the Gods are blind to the Consult? The No-God? Yes. Skin-spies? Yes, they have no soul. Anything related to the Tekne? I'd assume. But the Consult specifically? I don't know that the Gods have to be, unless the Consult has worked out some trick like the Torturer tried in Ishterebinth with that room that he thought would escape their gaze. It could be that the Ark is essentially made by the Tekne and alien, then it's a sort of a shield from the Gods.
ETA: question - if the Gods are blind to the Consult, then how are they even damned?
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I do wonder though, going all the way back, why are the Gods blind to the Consult? The theory was an attempt to possibly reconcile that.
Does it say anywhere in the text that the Gods are blind to the Consult? The No-God? Yes. Skin-spies? Yes, they have no soul. Anything related to the Tekne? I'd assume. But the Consult specifically? I don't know that the Gods have to be, unless the Consult has worked out some trick like the Torturer tried in Ishterebinth with that room that he thought would escape their gaze. It could be that the Ark is essentially made by the Tekne and alien, then it's a sort of a shield from the Gods.
ETA: question - if the Gods are blind to the Consult, then how are they even damned?
I don't know, but if they weren't, wouldn't they anecdotally know about the No-God and the plan to deny them their bread? The seems like something they'd be upset about.
I am probably drawing conclusions too far and off of too little, maybe they just never bother to look?
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Ajokli is protecting and guiding Kelmomas. When the WLW kills the Narindar, the assassin says Ajokli sees things the other Gods do not. Presumably a trickster of the Gods is able to hide and fool them as well.
There's also clear evidence that Kelmomas has a measure of the White Luck in that moment:
He would help-Yes! He would distract Father. Yes! That was his role. That was how it had already happened. He could feel it, somehow like an oracular density in his bones.
Ajokli gets even more props for tricking the guy that wants Kellhus dead the most to serve as his unwitting savior. The Four Horned Brother is one cool cat.
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ETA: question - if the Gods are blind to the Consult, then how are they even damned?
1) The separation of powers? Thas goes nicely with the fractured nature of the solitary god.
One is invisible for gods, who develop laws and eat criminals as a food. One is rather visible for most of the laws (damnation, mortality, sequacity for sorcery and causality, gravitation, topoisation etc), though can cheat like Shauritas. One is sooo visible for those, whose duty is to force law (ciphrangs are undergods, their domains of stength and weakness should differ from the big players).
Let's say, gods just have a problem to recognize a certain big problem and to issue a special quick solution. But that doesn't guarantee "full methaphysical immunity", for such creature will fall right through the creation. Like, you know, Jules Verne's invisible men is impossible -- for his eyes are insivible too and so he's blind, immune to the light iself.
2) Damnation is a legacy of solitary god and the Hundred are just survivors trying to make their living?
PS Crackpot: whole Tekne invisibility is not abysmall system bug; just a fresh blasphemy when there is no competent shaman, priest, sorcerer etc to snitch the concept to the Hundreds.
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The gods are finite, therefore they have limits including to their perception. The non-men attempt exploit this with the chamber of thresh-holds. The specific example is that they cannot see past the No-god's victory so no Unerring Grace, prophets, earthquakes etc.
There is no suggested connection between the Judgment and the hundred. They collect the harvest of damnation - and they can intercede - rather than dictate it's terms.
Recall that the Aspect Emperor begins with Kelmomas attracted to Ajokli's idol directly after his whelming? But Kelmomas never even thinks about the whelming itself, which was conducted by Khellus himself.
It's frankly pretty awesome when lil Kel is reflecting on the nature of Ajokli as a deciever, because it lamp-shades exactly how he gets played as a stooge. Add the fact that Khellus leaves the empire in Esmenet's hands, and she is the only thing that motivates lil Kel, I think we can see that Ajokli and Khellus are both involved in thwarting Yatwer.
Now, I have long held the belief that Kelmomas was annointed by Ajokli, but we collect another intesting Ajokli tidbit in Akka's penultimate dream. The Celmoman Prophecy. When Akka-as-Celmomas sees the four-horned mounted figure - Ajokli - in the vision. His descendant come to end the world?
Khellus has been Outside and he has seen beyond the Thousandfold Thought. He knows he is irrevocably damned. He has had the same revelations as the Survivor. But we also learn that strong souls can become demons. My thought is that Khellus will ascend and become Ajokli causing all the temporal nuttiness like his visions and the Celmoman prophecy to be enacted via the temporal powers of the hundred.
It's the only way he can avoid damnation without turning to the consult, imo.
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The non-man used the "Thresholds" to hide from the gods, is the labyrinth built by Kellhus and inhabited by little Kel the same sort of idea?
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I think the "inner palace" was actually a creation of the Nansur dynasties.
But no, you see how effective the Threshholds were to the direct scrutiny of Yatwer. i.e. not very. At any rate, hiden places would be Ajokli's thing - God of Deciet and all that.
Of course Ajokli's chosen benjuka pieces are different from Yatwer's - the fact is that Kelmomas is both aspected by Ajokli and completely deceived about it. He can only counter the White Luck because of this.
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Nah Kellhus built it. Esme says as much and little Kel wonders what happened to all the slaves that built it. I read it in White Luck Warrior last night then read your post and the thought came :)
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Well, it could well be in that case.
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the chapter headers with the rules of benjuka are interesting. There are no "moves" just changing the rules and the players (elements of the game). which ties in with no one having agency and the gods using their pieces as you state above.
I know so little about philosophy I always just feel like i'm talking nonsense when i try and work stuff out :)
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1) We knows gods are blind to certain things: No-God existence, Consult plans etc. There is guess that Tekne makes borders of gods' blindspot and, more specifically, it's distinctive product -- intelligence, which lacks "proper" concience or "enough" complexity. Correct me if I wrong here, please.
Intelligence without a soul is what they cant see.
So at least I reckon Kelmomas is somehow hidden from Gods eyesight thanks to a combination of few factors listed above. At most -- his metaphysical position is symmetricaly opposed to WLW. Either way, boy can fuck up other's plans, especially if they are godly.
PS That can be a possible answer to a question why Kellhus didn't drowned him in the first place.
PPS Dunno now, if Ajokli is an actual trickster god or it's a placeholder name for a sum of gods' debility manifested in the world.
PPPS What have I done. -.-
I've thought down this path before ... never lead anywhere. Him being invisible in the same way the consult machinations are seems like a fairly likely situation, but I can't seem to make sense of it.
On that note however, the WLW does interact directly with Kelmomas at several points. If Kel was always invisible to the God, or Yatwer specifically, then we wouldn't have any scenes with Kel and WLW interacting. Based on that, I'd say there was something else special about what happened with Kel.
I was thinking Kelmomas being invisible to the WLW, and thus Yatwar, had to do with him having two souls. But then I read some good stuff on Kel being a nanidar for Ajolki. Bakker did go out of his way to remind us of Kel killing the beetle before Ajolki's altar which on the surface seems like just a way to show Kel's personality when introducing him, but now we are given hints that it is far more important, else why did Bakker bring it back up?
Indeed, Chekov's gun scenario here. You don't waste words writing extra scenes into the book that are unimportant. Ajokli interacts with Kelmomas in an important way.
He might not be a full narindar, or maybe he is, but the distinction at this junction isn't important. I think it stands to reason that if Ajokli can see things the other Gods can't, then he can create or influence events in a similar fashion - without the other Gods being able to see.
I think Kel is a defective. Most of his siblings appear defective in some ways. I don't think it has anything to do with Tekne. Kellhus would likely have noticed any of flaw in her potential and wouldn't have bred with her.
Maybe there is a closer nonman relative than Omindalea, someone in either Esminet's or the Anasurimbor line that procreated with one of their ancestors and passed along some Tekne markers.
I pitched a theory here (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1783.0) in the ARC subforum that perhaps the Gods are actually blind to self-moving souls ... The idea I had was that since to Gods are essentially the Darkness the Comes Before, then they can see the whole chain of cause and effect that guides the world. Kellhus is outside that though, as are other self-moving souls, because they are part the Darkness.
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This doesn't preclude that Kel might be "God-entangled" with Ajolki though, but could just be supplemental.
Doesn't seem likely. As I said above, the Gods clearly see Kellhus and Kelmomas and how they interact with the world. The Gods can't be blind to them or they wouldn't seek their destruction - the same way they haven't gone after the consult.
If the gods are blind to Kellhus then how did the WLW predict Kellhus would be in the throne room at that moment? It was Kelmomas that changed the WLW vision of the future, not Kellhus.
I would imagine that if I am correct (and mind you, I am probably not) that "blind to" more probably means unable to see clearly, or properly read the chain of cause and effect and extrapolate that to fully predict the future. Then again, perhaps you are right, that Yatwer had the right of it and only Kel saved him and so from there everything else is beyond what could have been anticipated.
I do wonder though, going all the way back, why are the Gods blind to the Consult? The theory was an attempt to possibly reconcile that.
I had that same thought as I was responding - why are the Consult, but more specifically the Inchoroi, outside of the influence of the Gods. It might just be that the Nonmen have something going with their Holy Deep. It seemed like when Sorweel was descending into the abyss down in Ishterebinth, that at some point Yatwer's hold on him diminished or disappeared entirely. Could be that the Gods can't see the Consult because they are similarly hidden deep underground under/in a topos.
Or, generally speaking, they Consult themselves don't really do much. Their direct influence of the world is minimal - they have minions do everything. The Gods can't see the weapon races, so they can't see who manufactured them, and don't tie back their actions to the Consult. With this theory, the Consult aren't so much as free from scrutenty from the Gods, rather they just simly aren't worth their attention.
The gods are finite, therefore they have limits including to their perception. The non-men attempt exploit this with the chamber of thresh-holds. The specific example is that they cannot see past the No-god's victory so no Unerring Grace, prophets, earthquakes etc.
At this point I hope everyone is on board with this idea. Yatwer's failing with the WLW shows so clearly that even the most powerful god has a finite view of the world.
The only way to avoid that thought is that if you assume that Yatwer intended to fail at that junction with Kel/Kell/WLW so that she could kill him at some later date... But that moves into the same kind of thought processes that puts Moenghus Sr. as the God of all things. Too much mental gymnastics to make it work.
Occam's Razor. The God's are finite.
There is no suggested connection between the Judgment and the hundred. They collect the harvest of damnation - and they can intercede - rather than dictate it's terms.
I think Gods is largely a misnomer. Our general concept of "God" does not really encompass what the Gods are. Big Ciphrang seems a much better descriptor. They are not omnipotent or omnicient. They can't directly cause outcomes, as you say, only influence.
Now, I have long held the belief that Kelmomas was annointed by Ajokli, but we collect another intesting Ajokli tidbit in Akka's penultimate dream. The Celmoman Prophecy. When Akka-as-Celmomas sees the four-horned mounted figure - Ajokli - in the vision. His descendant come to end the world?
I loved these scene. It totally subverts the Celmomas Prophecy in a way that seemed totally fair to me. Seswatha misinterpreted what Celmomas said, changing the prophesy entirely.
That the God there was Ajokli and not Gilgaol is something I hadn't considered. It did have four horns...
Also, not just 'his descendant' but specifically Kellhus, and not "at the end of the world" but rather "to end the world". Not just the Harbinger, but the Reaper.
Khellus has been Outside and he has seen beyond the Thousandfold Thought. He knows he is irrevocably damned. He has had the same revelations as the Survivor. But we also learn that strong souls can become demons. My thought is that Khellus will ascend and become Ajokli causing all the temporal nuttiness like his visions and the Celmoman prophecy to be enacted via the temporal powers of the hundred.
It's the only way he can avoid damnation without turning to the consult, imo.
I think Koringhus' reaction is basically one of the 2 things a true 'dunyain' would do given the information. Either they would join the Consult to avoid damnation, or I guess commit suicide because of whatever Koringhus does that for.
Kellhus is doing something that is anathema to the Dunyain. Him trying to become a God is a good guess, I'm not sure myself though.
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I had that same thought as I was responding - why are the Consult, but more specifically the Inchoroi, outside of the influence of the Gods. It might just be that the Nonmen have something going with their Holy Deep. It seemed like when Sorweel was descending into the abyss down in Ishterebinth, that at some point Yatwer's hold on him diminished or disappeared entirely. Could be that the Gods can't see the Consult because they are similarly hidden deep underground under/in a topos.
Now that is an interesting line of speculation to pursue. If going underground distances you in some way from the gods. But the abyss of Ishterebinth didn't strike me as a topos. Nothing...disturbingly unnatural happened (though a deeper read of the Great Ordeal is needed). No hellfire, no seeing your own corpse, no undead dragon thing. I agree he was distances from Yatwar, though he did manage to survive. It's hard to say if Kellhus interferred with Yatwar's plan by sending him to Ishterebinth or not.
Now I'm sure Golgotterah is Topos central.
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1) We knows gods are blind to certain things: No-God existence, Consult plans etc. There is guess that Tekne makes borders of gods' blindspot and, more specifically, it's distinctive product -- intelligence, which lacks "proper" concience or "enough" complexity. Correct me if I wrong here, please.
Intelligence without a soul is what they cant see.
Going to split hairs here. Storks certainly do track sranc. The gods do see them, but they can't fathom them. "Lies made flesh" is how they are described.
What the gods can't do is sample their experience, because it is the soul that transmits meaning to the outside by nature of existing in subjective reality. Certainly Topoi are going to interfere with what the gods see.
It's not the Tekne that causes the blind spots. It's more to do with how the gods are related to the world by meaning rather than physicality.
The Inchoroi come from another world, before the hundred were even a thing. So the gods can't see their origin. Let's presume that the No-God rises again and the hundred are banished from the physical world again - the gods can't see beyond that and the souls of the Consult are no longer hell-bound... so how could the gods be aware of them? If you see what I mean.
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Intelligence without a soul is what they cant see.
As I got it, in bakkerverse intelligence and soul (also, intelligence and ability to mess with onta) are tied together like factory and it's product, like cause and result. Though I'm having a big difficult of quantifying/qualifying things here.
Him being invisible in the same way the consult machinations are seems like a fairly likely situation, but I can't seem to make sense of it
I've remembered an old theory of mine, maybe we can use it here.
1) Gods are so beyond of mortals' entanglement with time. Every one of them is a sum of all possible timelines, divided by exact principle like fertility, conflict, fate etc. It's easy to visualize such thing as 3D-puzzle (∞D, actually) or as regulatory and coding regions of a DNA gene.
2) Having a way to be in every possible situation, gods actually have constant and different experiences of their own undoings due to uncountable reasons.
3) On the one hand, they are "accustomed" to such experience. To them it's just an everlasting border of their existence, just like field of view or memory threshold for human.
4) On the other hand, such experience is so overwhelming it "leaks back" onto it's critical reasons -- places, people, concepts, etc -- and makes exact details highly unrecognizable, if not insignificant.
5) Thus an intelligence without a soul & a little boy Kelmomas may share just one quality. Their phenomenon somehow directly leads to gods' undoing, probably through different and unrelated means. But it's not a big deal for gods, for they just lose interest in such timeline, focusing on possibilities where Arc never landed, Kelmomas was drowned for deformity, Kellhus is narindared.
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The Inchoroi come from another world, before the hundred were even a thing. So the gods can't see their origin. Let's presume that the No-God rises again and the hundred are banished from the physical world again - the gods can't see beyond that and the souls of the Consult are no longer hell-bound... so how could the gods be aware of them? If you see what I mean.
Can't the gods see the inchoroi? Since the whole reason behind their plan is to close the world off to them or otherwise be damned by them? If the gods couldn't see them how or why then are they damned? Plus I thought and maybe this isn't the case and I just assumed, but i thought only things with souls could perform sorcery. I know they could not perform sorcery until they grafted the second mannish faces. Aurax, or Aurang I forget which definitely shows the mark as that is how Titirga’ knows he is hidden near in "The False Sun'
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Depends if being damned is the same as being seen/noticed by the gods. If they are the same, then the Gods are necessarily aware of the Inchoroi, assuming that the Inchoroi's own belief that they are damned is also true.
Yes, you need a soul to perform sorcery - that's what made the ensouled skin-spy that infiltrated the Mandate capable of performing sorcery.
But having a soul does not grant you the ability to use sorcery, you must also be able to see the Onta. The inchoroi did some unknown graft to their genome that allowed the ones that survived the ability to use sorcery. All living Inchoroi on Earwa thus have souls and the ability to see the Onta.
Intelligence without a soul is what they cant see.
As I got it, in bakkerverse intelligence and soul (also, intelligence and ability to mess with onta) are tied together like factory and it's product, like cause and result. Though I'm having a big difficult of quantifying/qualifying things here.
That can't be the case or an ensouled skin-spy would not be a unique thing, but required for it to exist.
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But having a soul does not grant you the ability to use sorcery, you must also be able to see the Onta.
Exactly. Like, duniyains have advanced cognition, thus their souls are more complex and push the whole subspecie closer to ability to mess with onta. Or am I still missing something?
It seems like soul is something growing on the ground of intelligence. And there is a certain moment when it grows large enough to be able to dominate the environment of said intelligence, to become a medium between consciousness and reality, to make sorcery possible.
Btw, maybe that's the reason monks tried to forget all magic? They saw the whole anagogic-gnostic-metagnostic refinement as deceptive dead end, a distraction from breeding a truly gargantuan soul which is actually capable for permanent substitution/digestion/domination of reality.
That can't be the case or an ensouled skin-spy would not be a unique thing, but required for it to exist.
Speaking about that special skinspy, I see two mutually exclusive possibilities.
1) He is ur-skinspy, his soul is totally equal to both human & the Few. Gods can actually see him because of that, just as they saw guys like Shauritas. Or they sometimes cannot, for now we know about nonmen Threshholds (soggomantic cell similar to faraday's cage?).
2) It is common skinspy, and it's sorcery (the reason it is somehow supposed to be him) are not actually it's. Thing called Simas was desined as vehicle for remote operator akin to inchoroi Syntese, complete with the ability to manifest some lesser Cants on the thing's end. In this case, Gods are blind.
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Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Kellhaus Van Houten (hereforth, I shall probably refer to you as KVH ;) ).
Also - I realize the topic has strayed but sign me up for the "Unerring Grace" of Ajokli's Narindar trumping the "White-Luck" of Yatwer's White-Luck Warrior theory, if it exists here. The whys and the wherefores of these seemingly self-evident phenomenon are clearly one of the biggest questions to emerge so far from different post-TGO discussions and I have nothing really to add yet.
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Well, I seem to remember that the Inchoroi have been damned well before they even found Earwa, correct? So there damnation wouldn't seem to even be a judgment of the 100 then, no? What I'm saying is there is no way the 100 damned entities from another planet/universe, correct? Might be why the Inchoroi are invisible to the 100, their damnation has nothing to do with them.
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Curethan, Ignoring all the other interesting stuff you said (much of which I agree with) I just want to challenge this.
It's the only way he can avoid damnation without turning to the consult, imo.
Why would Kellhus ever care about damnation? Existential pain would have no effect on him. He is a place, not a person. I don't think avoiding damnation plays into his pursuits at all.
I think Koringhus' reaction is basically one of the 2 things a true 'dunyain' would do given the information. Either they would join the Consult to avoid damnation, or I guess commit suicide because of whatever Koringhus does that for.
Again, I don't think so. I think that ultimately a true dunyain shouldn't care. Meaning Koringhus was broken, and Meongus was weak.
Not to imply Kellhus isn't broken also but no true Dunyain would care, and I don't think Kellhus does.
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Now that is an interesting line of speculation to pursue. If going underground distances you in some way from the gods. But the abyss of Ishterebinth didn't strike me as a topos. Nothing...disturbingly unnatural happened (though a deeper read of the Great Ordeal is needed). No hellfire, no seeing your own corpse, no undead dragon thing. I agree he was distances from Yatwar, though he did manage to survive. It's hard to say if Kellhus interferred with Yatwar's plan by sending him to Ishterebinth or not.
Now I'm sure Golgotterah is Topos central.
It isn't going underground that distances you from the gods. It's going into the hollow cavities that already exist in the earth. My read was that digging a hole isn't enough. Only natural pockets in the rock are beyond the vision of the gods.
I would guess that this is because of the central ground theme thing. The ground is metaphysically central. Sorcerers don't fly they walk an echo of the ground. Shaman "command the ground". Yatwer has power over the ground with the earth quakes and the magic mud.
The ground is foundation. In Earwar this is not just a physical truth, it is a spiritual truth. And the ground belongs to the gods. Only those natural pockets in the earth allow you to hide from them.
At least that's what the non-men think. I don't know if they are right, but that is why they worship pockets in the crust.
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It isn't going underground that distances you from the gods. It's going into the hollow cavities that already exist in the earth. My read was that digging a hole isn't enough. Only natural pockets in the rock are beyond the vision of the gods.
I would guess that this is because of the central ground theme thing. The ground is metaphysically central. Sorcerers don't fly they walk an echo of the ground. Shaman "command the ground". Yatwer has power over the ground with the earth quakes and the magic mud.
The ground is foundation. In Earwar this is not just a physical truth, it is a spiritual truth. And the ground belongs to the gods. Only those natural pockets in the earth allow you to hide from them.
At least that's what the non-men think. I don't know if they are right, but that is why they worship pockets in the crust.
I like that idea, it makes sense. In a way, an abscess in the ground is something of a pocket of oblivion, an interesting parallel of their "religious" practice.
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Well, when Sorweel is in the Holy Deep he remarks that he is outide the reach of Yatwer. So, is assume it's a matter of how deep you dig to escape the gazes of the Gods.
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I would wager that it is more of a function of quantity than depth. The lesser amount of souls, the less interested the Gods are. No Men, no crimes.
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Kellhus built that secret network to hide young Kel from the gods is a crackpot theory i have. Thresholds/gates or something.
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Well, when Sorweel is in the Holy Deep he remarks that he is outide the reach of Yatwer. So, is assume it's a matter of how deep you dig to escape the gazes of the Gods.
I don't think so. I think that the difference between the Holy Deep and the rest of the mansion is that the Holy Deep is a natural cave, that's what makes it holy.
I think I could find some quotes to back that up but I'll have to do it later.
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I don't think so. I think that the difference between the Holy Deep and the rest of the mansion is that the Holy Deep is a natural cave, that's what makes it holy.
I think I could find some quotes to back that up but I'll have to do it later.
Here's the quote that I took my thoughts from. It's when Sorweel, is standing on the beach with Orinial(sp?) in the Holy Deep.
He was lost down here, he realized. He had come to the one place the Mother of Birth could not follow. For that was why Imimorûl had hidden his children in rock and mountains : to conceal them from the Gods.
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On the subject of skin spies and having souls, it's a rare occurrence. Scott's also mentioned that whales and great apes occasionally have souls as well. This is consistent. We are talking about highly intelligent creatures, albeit ones ruled by instinct. The exceptional one whose intellect is great enough to possess some self awareness has a soul while its lesser brothers and sisters do not.
As for Kelmomas, I have this way out of left field crackpot idea that he's going to end up part of the No-God and is thus invisible. I don't really believe it, but the possibility won't lie down and die.
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To me, this is the central question of The Great Ordeal.
Why does WLW's destiny get broken by Kelmomas?
We know how WLW's destiny works in general. The Gods are timeless. Everything is one, in every respect, as Koringhus says. The Gods don't just watch out of every eye, they do so all throughout time. So Yatwer can perfectly aim WLW at Kellhus.
Similarly, it is pretty clear what saves Kellhus. Kelmomas cries out, which makes him turn, and the world suddenly takes a path not forseen by Yatwer.
But...how can that be? It isn't that Yatwer is IN the present, forseeing the future. There is no present, past or future for beings of the Outside, right? They do not "happen, all at once", as Psatma says. Whatever ends up happening, Yatwer should be seeing it even as it does so (cue WLW seeing himself ahead of and behind himself, etc).
We know that the Hundred are blind to certain entities (sentience without soul and all. They can't look out their eyes.) But how does that work, exactly?
If a Skin Spy (or other entity the Gods are blind to) kills someone, what exactly happens there, in the God's eyes? Do they just forsee the person dying with no cause? Or do they forsee them living , and then become confused when they die? That is, in the past, when the No God's soulless armies were destroying cities...did the Hundred not understand why the people were dying...or did they not even understand that they were dying ? How deep does the blindness run?
Like, if Yatwer and friends have a view of the whole timeline that is broken any time soulless entities intrude upon it...it should be gibberish by now. Populated by the time-ghosts of those who weren't supposed to have died and their descendants. So it seems like they have to be able to see at least the second order effects of the actions of things that they are blind to.
But if that's the case, then why didn't she see Kellhus reacting to Kelmomas's scream? Kellhus is reacting to something that she can't see...but she should still see him, right? I mean, his whole reign is a reaction to things she can't see. The Sranc/Inchoroi nuke is what prompted his flight to Momas, but she didn't have any trouble knowing he'd be there.
The only thing that makes sense, to me, is if Yatwer's blindness to Kelmomas (or, really, Samarmas. WLW has no trouble interacting with Thelli, so it is clearly capable of dealing with Dunyain children in the general sense) is of a different kind than her blindness to Skin Spies. But that seems absurdly contrived? Two kinds of metaphysical blind spot? No author would do that. You couldn't rely on the reader to keep track.
So I must have gone off course somewhere. Best guess remains that Samarmas muddles Kelmomas's POV enough that looking out his eyes doesn't work right, so Yatwer can account for him in a general sense (Thelli is going to his room to confront him, so WLW needs to go there...), but not in a specific, clutch situation.
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The gods are finite, therefore they have limits including to their perception. The non-men attempt exploit this with the chamber of thresh-holds. The specific example is that they cannot see past the No-god's victory so no Unerring Grace, prophets, earthquakes etc.
There is no suggested connection between the Judgment and the hundred. They collect the harvest of damnation - and they can intercede - rather than dictate it's terms.
Recall that the Aspect Emperor begins with Kelmomas attracted to Ajokli's idol directly after his whelming? But Kelmomas never even thinks about the whelming itself, which was conducted by Khellus himself.
It's frankly pretty awesome when lil Kel is reflecting on the nature of Ajokli as a deciever, because it lamp-shades exactly how he gets played as a stooge. Add the fact that Khellus leaves the empire in Esmenet's hands, and she is the only thing that motivates lil Kel, I think we can see that Ajokli and Khellus are both involved in thwarting Yatwer.
Now, I have long held the belief that Kelmomas was annointed by Ajokli, but we collect another intesting Ajokli tidbit in Akka's penultimate dream. The Celmoman Prophecy. When Akka-as-Celmomas sees the four-horned mounted figure - Ajokli - in the vision. His descendant come to end the world?
Khellus has been Outside and he has seen beyond the Thousandfold Thought. He knows he is irrevocably damned. He has had the same revelations as the Survivor. But we also learn that strong souls can become demons. My thought is that Khellus will ascend and become Ajokli causing all the temporal nuttiness like his visions and the Celmoman prophecy to be enacted via the temporal powers of the hundred.
It's the only way he can avoid damnation without turning to the consult, imo.
This is probably my favorite end game theory I have read thus far. +1 Curethan
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I've went back to judging eye prologue, It doesn't seem like Kellhus performed that Whelming. He is with the Ordeal. There is also two whelmings. The hypnosis of the Dunyain and the religious ceremony marking you a believer.
Nor is it ajokli who appears to Akka in his dream. It's Gilgaol he wears a crown which has nubile woman as 4 horns, not actually 4 horns.
In my reading anyway. I might be wrong.
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Nor is it ajokli who appears to Akka in his dream. It's Gilgaol he wears a crown which has nubile woman as 4 horns, not actually 4 horns.
In my reading anyway. I might be wrong.
The vision’s eyes were fury, his hair the tangle of warring nations, and his teeth were as whetted blades. A crown gleamed above his brow, four golden horns, clutched in the arms of four nubile virgins—the Spoils. Bones and bodies clotted the ravines of his grim expression. And his cloak smoked with the burning of fields.
So, there are both horns and women, not that this proves anything really.
Since we have seen that it is possible for one to see oneself from the future (a la Saubon) I am definitely of the mind that Kellhus is appearing to both Celmomas and to himself. I don't really buy Kellhus as Ajolki, but I think Ajolki is certainly helping Kellhus along, for whatever reason.
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Nor is it ajokli who appears to Akka in his dream. It's Gilgaol he wears a crown which has nubile woman as 4 horns, not actually 4 horns.
In my reading anyway. I might be wrong.
The vision’s eyes were fury, his hair the tangle of warring nations, and his teeth were as whetted blades. A crown gleamed above his brow, four golden horns, clutched in the arms of four nubile virgins—the Spoils. Bones and bodies clotted the ravines of his grim expression. And his cloak smoked with the burning of fields.
So, there are both horns and women, not that this proves anything really.
Since we have seen that it is possible for one to see oneself from the future (a la Saubon) I am definitely of the mind that Kellhus is appearing to both Celmomas and to himself. I don't really buy Kellhus as Ajolki, but I think Ajolki is certainly helping Kellhus along, for whatever reason.
Kind of a big mistake, then, to have Akka sent away. Still wondering what makes Achamian able to receive special dreams.
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Kind of a big mistake, then, to have Akka sent away. Still wondering what makes Achamian able to receive special dreams.
Not necessarily a mistake if that is what the Voice told him needed to be done. For whatever reason, Akka needs to be "freelance" perhaps because of Mimara and TJE. My only guess on the changed Dreams is something about Seswatha, although what I don't know, since other Mandati aren't suffering the changes. Perhaps it is a function of his doubt? Seswatha trying to convince him of the necessity of Kellhus?
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I think the reason why Achamian has received further dreams is because of the Whelming Kellhus performed on him to bypass the sorcerous restriction on divulging the Gnosis. He did something that unshackled the unedited memories of Seswatha.
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I think the reason why Achamian has received further dreams is because of the Whelming Kellhus performed on him to bypass the sorcerous restriction on divulging the Gnosis. He did something that unshackled the unedited memories of Seswatha.
Good point. That would certainly jive well with my idea that sometimes a soul can be opened to the Outside and influence can leak in. Perhaps in this manner, the Dreams are unbound from Seswatha, so all perspectives are now open, not just the edited Seswatha-lite versions.
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Mimara also states in the book he is now actually a prophet of the past "she knows this now" i think the quote is.
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I think the reason why Achamian has received further dreams is because of the Whelming Kellhus performed on him to bypass the sorcerous restriction on divulging the Gnosis. He did something that unshackled the unedited memories of Seswatha.
Good point. That would certainly jive well with my idea that sometimes a soul can be opened to the Outside and influence can leak in. Perhaps in this manner, the Dreams are unbound from Seswatha, so all perspectives are now open, not just the edited Seswatha-lite versions.
I like this And could very well be true, I still like to think that Anagke has his hand in the dreams and is leading Akka to his Fate. Thematically, I think that makes the most sense.
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Kind of a big mistake, then, to have Akka sent away. Still wondering what makes Achamian able to receive special dreams.
Not necessarily a mistake if that is what the Voice told him needed to be done. For whatever reason, Akka needs to be "freelance" perhaps because of Mimara and TJE. My only guess on the changed Dreams is something about Seswatha, although what I don't know, since other Mandati aren't suffering the changes. Perhaps it is a function of his doubt? Seswatha trying to convince him of the necessity of Kellhus?
Anagke. Mimara tips us to the fact of it being the case.
Fate had her —had them. Anagkë, the Whore, would midwife her child … She fairly weeps for thinking it. No matter how fierce or cunning or deliberate her struggles, no matter how much it seems she cut trails of her own making, she follows tracks laid at the founding of the World … There can be no denying it. One can sooner climb free the air than escape Fate.
Akka has cursed The Whore, Anagke since PoN and has never stopped. He has always been God-entangled with Anagke. Its why he is let go by Kellhus when he denounces him at Shimeh in front of the Great names. It's why he has gotten these dreams that made him a prophet of the past, to lead him to his fate. Even, when Akka first realizes that he is the Seswatha of the 2nd Apocalypse in PoN, he is dumbfounded, that a lowly spy would have such a great role in these events. It has always been his fate, and Anagke has always guided him.
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I'm not convinced Anagke is really a god. I think some of the gods exist, obviously, but some are just personifications of worldly things. Fate, specifically, seems unlikely to exist. A god of fate would/should be the most powerful god. It should controlling everything, all of time, etc.
Anagke is an idea, imo. Not a god.
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I'm not convinced Anagke is really a god. I think some of the gods exist, obviously, but some are just personifications of worldly things. Fate, specifically, seems unlikely to exist. A god of fate would/should be the most powerful god. It should controlling everything, all of time, etc.
Anagke is an idea, imo. Not a god.
I don't know, I think Anagke can be a god and still not be all-powerful, because you are worshiping the idea that the chain of cause and effect isn't broken. Of course it is, so there are limits to the approach. Just as the Logos isn't all powerful, Fate need not be either.
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Its difficult to wrap my brain around a meaningful world.
I've been drifting away from 'oh shit, there are gods everywhere' to 'yeah maybe some stuff is Gods, but does that mean everything has to be?'. Not because its necessarily more correct, just easier for me to think about.
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Fate, specifically, seems unlikely to exist. A god of fate would/should be the most powerful god. It should controlling everything, all of time, etc.
But Azathoth! Also, dunyain among humans = fate gods among, emm, more baseline gods?
Oh, and I`m actually ashamed of my "swoop in, drop mischievous comment, run!" behaviour.
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Lmao, thanks SP :)
Azathoth made me think of Malazan, and then you went on to stack different levels of gods onto eachother and I had nowhere to go lol.