[dragharrow]

Well, when Sorweel is in the Holy Deep he remarks that he is outide the reach of Yatwer. So, is assume it's a matter of how deep you dig to escape the gazes of the Gods.

I don't think so. I think that the difference between the Holy Deep and the rest of the mansion is that the Holy Deep is a natural cave, that's what makes it holy.

I think I could find some quotes to back that up but I'll have to do it later.

[MSJ]

I don't think so. I think that the difference between the Holy Deep and the rest of the mansion is that the Holy Deep is a natural cave, that's what makes it holy.

I think I could find some quotes to back that up but I'll have to do it later.

Here's the quote that I took my thoughts from. It's when Sorweel, is standing on the beach with Orinial(sp?) in the Holy Deep.

He was lost down here, he realized. He had come to the one place the Mother of Birth could not follow. For that was why Imimorûl had hidden his children in rock and mountains : to conceal them from the Gods.

[Cynical Cat]

On the subject of skin spies and having souls, it's a rare occurrence.  Scott's also mentioned that whales and great apes occasionally have souls as well.  This is consistent.  We are talking about highly intelligent creatures, albeit ones ruled by instinct.  The exceptional one whose intellect is great enough to possess some self awareness has a soul while its lesser brothers and sisters do not. 

As for Kelmomas, I have this way out of left field crackpot idea that he's going to end up part of the No-God and is thus invisible.  I don't really believe it, but the possibility won't lie down and die.

[Walter]

To me, this is the central question of The Great Ordeal.

Why does WLW's destiny get broken by Kelmomas?

We know how WLW's destiny works in general.  The Gods are timeless.  Everything is one, in every respect, as Koringhus says.  The Gods don't just watch out of every eye, they do so all throughout time.  So Yatwer can perfectly aim WLW at Kellhus.

Similarly, it is pretty clear what saves Kellhus.  Kelmomas cries out, which makes him turn, and the world suddenly takes a path not forseen by Yatwer.

But...how can that be?  It isn't that Yatwer is IN the present, forseeing the future.  There is no present, past or future for beings of the Outside, right?  They do not "happen, all at once", as Psatma says.  Whatever ends up happening, Yatwer should be seeing it even as it does so (cue WLW seeing himself ahead of and behind himself, etc).

We know that the Hundred are blind to certain entities (sentience without soul and all.  They can't look out their eyes.)  But how does that work, exactly?

If a Skin Spy (or other entity the Gods are blind to) kills someone, what exactly happens there, in the God's eyes?  Do they just forsee the person dying with no cause?  Or do they forsee them living , and then become confused when they die?  That is, in the past, when the No God's soulless armies were destroying cities...did the Hundred not understand why the people were dying...or did they not even understand that they were dying ? How deep does the blindness run?

Like, if Yatwer and friends have a view of the whole timeline that is broken any time soulless entities intrude upon it...it should be gibberish by now.  Populated by the time-ghosts of those who weren't supposed to have died and their descendants.  So it seems like they have to be able to see at least the second order effects of the actions of things that they are blind to.

But if that's the case, then why didn't she see Kellhus reacting to Kelmomas's scream?  Kellhus is reacting to something that she can't see...but she should still see him, right? I mean, his whole reign is a reaction to things she can't see.  The Sranc/Inchoroi nuke is what prompted his flight to Momas, but she didn't have any trouble knowing he'd be there.

The only thing that makes sense, to me, is if Yatwer's blindness to Kelmomas (or, really, Samarmas.  WLW has no trouble interacting with Thelli, so it is clearly capable of dealing with Dunyain children in the general sense) is of a different kind than her blindness to Skin Spies.  But that seems absurdly contrived?  Two kinds of metaphysical blind spot?  No author would do that.  You couldn't rely on the reader to keep track.

So I must have gone off course somewhere.  Best guess remains that Samarmas muddles Kelmomas's POV enough that looking out his eyes doesn't work right, so Yatwer can account for him in a general sense (Thelli is going to his room to confront him, so WLW needs to go there...), but not in a specific, clutch situation.

[gtownwr]

The gods are finite, therefore they have limits including to their perception.  The non-men attempt exploit this with the chamber of thresh-holds. The specific example is that they cannot see past the No-god's victory so no Unerring Grace, prophets, earthquakes etc.

There is no suggested connection between the Judgment and the hundred.  They collect the harvest of damnation - and they can intercede - rather than dictate it's terms.

Recall that the Aspect Emperor begins with Kelmomas attracted to Ajokli's idol directly after his whelming? But Kelmomas never even thinks about the whelming itself, which was conducted by Khellus himself.
It's frankly pretty awesome when lil Kel is reflecting on the nature of Ajokli as a deciever, because it lamp-shades exactly how he gets played as a stooge. Add the fact that Khellus leaves the empire in Esmenet's hands, and she is the only thing that motivates lil Kel, I think we can see that Ajokli and Khellus are both involved in thwarting Yatwer.

Now, I have long held the belief that Kelmomas was annointed by Ajokli, but we collect another intesting Ajokli tidbit in Akka's penultimate dream. The Celmoman Prophecy.  When Akka-as-Celmomas sees the four-horned mounted figure - Ajokli - in the vision. His descendant come to end the world?

Khellus has been Outside and he has seen beyond the Thousandfold Thought. He knows he is irrevocably damned. He has had the same revelations as the Survivor.  But we also learn that strong souls can become demons. My thought is that Khellus will ascend and become Ajokli causing all the temporal nuttiness like his visions and the Celmoman prophecy to be enacted via the temporal powers of the hundred.
It's the only way he can avoid damnation without turning to the consult, imo.

This is probably my favorite end game theory I have read thus far.  +1 Curethan

[themerchant]

I've went back to judging eye prologue, It doesn't seem like Kellhus performed that Whelming. He is with the Ordeal. There is also two whelmings. The hypnosis of the Dunyain and the religious ceremony marking you a believer.

Nor is it ajokli who appears to Akka in his dream. It's Gilgaol he wears a crown which has nubile woman as 4 horns, not actually 4 horns.

In my reading anyway. I might be wrong.

[H]

Nor is it ajokli who appears to Akka in his dream. It's Gilgaol he wears a crown which has nubile woman as 4 horns, not actually 4 horns.

In my reading anyway. I might be wrong.

The vision’s eyes were fury, his hair the tangle of warring nations, and his teeth were as whetted blades. A crown gleamed above his brow, four golden horns, clutched in the arms of four nubile virgins—the Spoils. Bones and bodies clotted the ravines of his grim expression. And his cloak smoked with the burning of fields.

So, there are both horns and women, not that this proves anything really.

Since we have seen that it is possible for one to see oneself from the future (a la Saubon) I am definitely of the mind that Kellhus is appearing to both Celmomas and to himself.  I don't really buy Kellhus as Ajolki, but I think Ajolki is certainly helping Kellhus along, for whatever reason.

[Wilshire]

Nor is it ajokli who appears to Akka in his dream. It's Gilgaol he wears a crown which has nubile woman as 4 horns, not actually 4 horns.

In my reading anyway. I might be wrong.

The vision’s eyes were fury, his hair the tangle of warring nations, and his teeth were as whetted blades. A crown gleamed above his brow, four golden horns, clutched in the arms of four nubile virgins—the Spoils. Bones and bodies clotted the ravines of his grim expression. And his cloak smoked with the burning of fields.

So, there are both horns and women, not that this proves anything really.

Since we have seen that it is possible for one to see oneself from the future (a la Saubon) I am definitely of the mind that Kellhus is appearing to both Celmomas and to himself.  I don't really buy Kellhus as Ajolki, but I think Ajolki is certainly helping Kellhus along, for whatever reason.

Kind of a big mistake, then, to have Akka sent away. Still wondering what makes Achamian able to receive special dreams.

[H]

Kind of a big mistake, then, to have Akka sent away. Still wondering what makes Achamian able to receive special dreams.

Not necessarily a mistake if that is what the Voice told him needed to be done.  For whatever reason, Akka needs to be "freelance" perhaps because of Mimara and TJE.  My only guess on the changed Dreams is something about Seswatha, although what I don't know, since other Mandati aren't suffering the changes.  Perhaps it is a function of his doubt?  Seswatha trying to convince him of the necessity of Kellhus?

[JRControl]

I think the reason why Achamian has received further dreams is because of the Whelming Kellhus performed on him to bypass the sorcerous restriction on divulging the Gnosis. He did something that unshackled the unedited memories of Seswatha.

[H]

I think the reason why Achamian has received further dreams is because of the Whelming Kellhus performed on him to bypass the sorcerous restriction on divulging the Gnosis. He did something that unshackled the unedited memories of Seswatha.

Good point.  That would certainly jive well with my idea that sometimes a soul can be opened to the Outside and influence can leak in.  Perhaps in this manner, the Dreams are unbound from Seswatha, so all perspectives are now open, not just the edited Seswatha-lite versions.

[themerchant]

Mimara also states in the book he is now actually a prophet of the past "she knows this now" i think the quote is.

[MSJ]

I think the reason why Achamian has received further dreams is because of the Whelming Kellhus performed on him to bypass the sorcerous restriction on divulging the Gnosis. He did something that unshackled the unedited memories of Seswatha.

Good point.  That would certainly jive well with my idea that sometimes a soul can be opened to the Outside and influence can leak in.  Perhaps in this manner, the Dreams are unbound from Seswatha, so all perspectives are now open, not just the edited Seswatha-lite versions.

I like this And could very well be true, I still like to think that Anagke has his hand in the dreams and is leading Akka to his Fate. Thematically, I think that makes the most sense.

[MSJ]

Kind of a big mistake, then, to have Akka sent away. Still wondering what makes Achamian able to receive special dreams.

Not necessarily a mistake if that is what the Voice told him needed to be done.  For whatever reason, Akka needs to be "freelance" perhaps because of Mimara and TJE.  My only guess on the changed Dreams is something about Seswatha, although what I don't know, since other Mandati aren't suffering the changes.  Perhaps it is a function of his doubt?  Seswatha trying to convince him of the necessity of Kellhus?

Anagke. Mimara tips us to the fact of it being the case.

Fate had her —had them. Anagkë, the Whore, would midwife her child … She fairly weeps for thinking it. No matter how fierce or cunning or deliberate her struggles, no matter how much it seems she cut trails of her own making, she follows tracks laid at the founding of the World … There can be no denying it. One can sooner climb free the air than escape Fate.

Akka has cursed The Whore, Anagke since PoN and has never stopped. He has always been God-entangled with Anagke. Its why he is let go by Kellhus when he denounces him at Shimeh in front of the Great names. It's why he has gotten these dreams that made him a prophet of the past, to lead him to his fate. Even, when Akka first realizes that he is the Seswatha of the 2nd Apocalypse in PoN, he is dumbfounded, that a lowly spy would have such a great role in these events. It has always been his fate, and Anagke has always guided him.

[Wilshire]

I'm not convinced Anagke is really a god. I think some of the gods exist, obviously, but some are just personifications of worldly things. Fate, specifically, seems unlikely to exist. A god of fate would/should be the most powerful god. It should controlling everything, all of time, etc.

Anagke is an idea, imo. Not a god.