[TGO Spoilers] Explaining Koringhus

  • 93 Replies
  • 50408 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2298
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2016, 09:11:41 pm »
Very nice, H.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2893
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2016, 11:41:08 am »
It comes up a few times that the gods are blind to the No-God. Koringhus says that the Absolute is behind the Judging Eye. So what if Mimara's Judging Eye is what will finally let the Absolute/Zero-God/One God "see" the No-God?

I wish I had something profound to add here, but my theory was essentially just some random thought that popped into my mind as I read MSJ's post.

All I can do to expand on it is to say that perhaps Mimara is the closing of the watcher-watched loop, although I really have no idea what that means in a deeper sense.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2016, 05:32:51 pm »
Quote
Also, what the text makes almost obtusely clear is that Koringhus' leap is important. That "the leap was his" matters, for some reason.

...it is, quite literally, a leap of faith after all.

Indeed.
Someone either here or at Easter is put forth the idea that the 100 rocks and the 99 birds killed by Koringhus is symbolic of the 99 gods that Kellhus will kill to shut the Outside. So, when Koringhus gives the Boy the last stone, he later uses it to hit Serwe the Skin-Spy and send her of a cliff, this escaping. So, I was thinking that this could be symbolic of someone other than Kellhus killing the No-God/Consult. Maybe Mimara? Akka? The boy? Anyone have anything that they might add to my thoughts?

Somnambulist in the ARC discussion here.

Anyone have anything that they might add to my thoughts?

It would be pretty crazy if it was that Mimara would undo the No-God by simply looking at it and answering it's question of "What do you see?"

Hah! Now that you mention it, it seems obvious that it will happen.

Lol - such simplicity. Nice, H.

Something to add to the thread. I very much wonder if we can use Koringhus' Qirri overdose as analogous to what happens to Kellhus on the Circumfix. On p405 of TGO hardcover, Koringhus seems to have a "dialogue" with his own thoughts very similar to Kellhus' on the Circumfix.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2298
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2016, 08:47:25 pm »
Lol - such simplicity. Nice, H.

Something to add to the thread. I very much wonder if we can use Koringhus' Qirri overdose as analogous to what happens to Kellhus on the Circumfix. On p405 of TGO hardcover, Koringhus seems to have a "dialogue" with his own thoughts very similar to Kellhus' on the Circumfix.

I think Koringhus can be used as an analogue in many regards to Kellhus. His care of his boy. Going mad. And, his realization of the Zero-God.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Viridius

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 9
    • View Profile
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2016, 08:31:49 am »
I should finish analyzing those last few excerpts but the more I think about them the more I'll have to cull other intratextual references to tie it all together, and my brain is a little melty right now between binging on TGO and catching up on real-world stuff.

I probably shouldn't put too much stock in a flavor text philosopher like Ajencis, but he seems to suggest that 'Damnation' (and maybe Salvation, if there IS a heavenly plane -- I don't think we've seen as much concrete evidence for that as we have for Hell) is what happens when your  soul is intercepted on its way out of the World. Maybe it's such that faith in one of the many gods is like gratifying a narcissist, and unless you appease them, they don't intervene to save your soul from being sucked up by demons. Maybe all otherworldy beings (gods & demons) function like the No-God and indiscriminately vacuum up souls before they can reach the Absolute -- in which case authentic salvation is joining the Absolute, not being caught in the pocket dimension of some God. Was Koringhus' leap a "sideways step" around the Gods and demons the way the Judging Eye is a sideways step around Logos?

And then how does the Judging Eye work, exactly? It's the eye of the Absolute, at least according to Koringhus, but does that mean the Absolute is the "cubit" against which morality is measured? If yes then where do the other gods like Yatwer factor in?

The theology is so opaque. I wonder if the World was actually peachy-keen in prehistory and the Inchoroi are like a Typhoid Mary that brings Damnation with them wherever they go.

Thanks for your posts Spacemost! Your final point about the Inchoroi is something that I was thinking.

It would be pretty crazy if it was that Mimara would undo the No-God by simply looking at it and answering it's question of "What do you see?"

Yes!   I can see that. I always thought that it would be Acha, but that makes sense to me.
“Answers are a perilous grip on the universe. They can appear sensible yet explain nothing.”

-- The Zensunni Whip

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2016, 05:12:26 pm »
Lol - such simplicity. Nice, H.

Something to add to the thread. I very much wonder if we can use Koringhus' Qirri overdose as analogous to what happens to Kellhus on the Circumfix. On p405 of TGO hardcover, Koringhus seems to have a "dialogue" with his own thoughts very similar to Kellhus' on the Circumfix.

I think Koringhus can be used as an analogue in many regards to Kellhus. His care of his boy. Going mad. And, his realization of the Zero-God.

We're still denied too much of Kellhus' perspective, methinks, MSJ :).
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2298
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2016, 05:46:23 pm »
Lol - such simplicity. Nice, H.

Something to add to the thread. I very much wonder if we can use Koringhus' Qirri overdose as analogous to what happens to Kellhus on the Circumfix. On p405 of TGO hardcover, Koringhus seems to have a "dialogue" with his own thoughts very similar to Kellhus' on the Circumfix.

I think Koringhus can be used as an analogue in many regards to Kellhus. His care of his boy. Going mad. And, his realization of the Zero-God.

We're still denied too much of Kellhus' perspective, methinks, MSJ :).

Lol. Most of you couldn't handle all of the LOVE that is inside that perspective!!!! ;)
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

rhizome

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 18
  • One or Several Wolves
    • View Profile
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2016, 02:08:24 am »

Something to add to the thread. I very much wonder if we can use Koringhus' Qirri overdose as analogous to what happens to Kellhus on the Circumfix. On p405 of TGO hardcover, Koringhus seems to have a "dialogue" with his own thoughts very similar to Kellhus' on the Circumfix.

I think so. Being broken and being brought back to belief/faith is big theme in TGO -- I mean, the book ends on it  (and likely teases what will be in TUC with Akka/Kellhus). I'm sure it's deliberate, not only refer to TWP, but also in that the internal dialogue makes what's actually happening more difficult to figure out for the reader.  There are certainly things we are not meant to be able to know, or figure out... even now.

Still disappointed we didn't get more Dunyain perspectives, the Koringhus chapter(s) was/were the only part I felt was rushed.   

SilentRoamer

  • *
  • The Smiling Knife
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 480
    • View Profile
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2016, 03:54:51 pm »

Lol. Most of you couldn't handle all of the LOVE that is inside that perspective!!!! ;)

How True MSJ. Although for those of us who truly Believe...

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2016, 05:10:06 pm »
Still disappointed we didn't get more Dunyain perspectives, the Koringhus chapter(s) was/were the only part I felt was rushed.   

As I recall, we almost didn't get the later Survivor-centric chapter.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

JRControl

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Kellhus lied, Harambe died
    • View Profile
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2016, 09:59:05 pm »
I will say, I am getting some uncomfortable vibes about lube love being the Secret to all the things. I get these Hyperion/Endymion flashbacks and while I found those books great at that time, I would be disappointed in them today. Then again, I doubt things will turn out to be anywhere that simple.
“Because you’re a pious man born to a world unable to fathom your piety. But all that changes with me, Akka. The old food pyramids have outlived the age of their intention, and I have come to reveal the new. I am the Slimmest Path, and I say that you are not damned.”

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2016, 11:19:36 pm »
I like Hyperion, never read Endymion.

I can't even imagine what Bakker "catharsis" looks like.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Titan

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 87
    • View Profile
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2016, 11:31:21 pm »
I will say, I am getting some uncomfortable vibes about lube love being the Secret to all the things. I get these Hyperion/Endymion flashbacks and while I found those books great at that time, I would be disappointed in them today. Then again, I doubt things will turn out to be anywhere that simple.

Re: Hyperion/Endymion, that concept (even if you simplified it) was not introduced until Endymion - and it did strike me as a bit of a Simmons not having the whole thing thought out from the beginning. Even though I like the last two books (Endymion + Rise of Endymion), the first two books (Hyperion + Fall of Hyperion) are heads and shoulders above the latter two, and can be viewed as their own work if you prefer.

But yes, hopefully Bakker doesn't head in that direction.

TheDeliverator

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2016, 12:33:15 am »
Any thoughts on Koringhus' reference to fractions of his soul and Nil'Giccas\Incariol\Cleric's battle\attempt to Become at the end of WLW?

The Internet way back machine points to Dunyain and Nonmen and Seswatha's Elju(s)


...the first two books (Hyperion + Fall of Hyperion) are heads and shoulders above the latter two, and can be viewed as their own work if you prefer.

But yes, hopefully Bakker doesn't head in that direction.

This

Cosi

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2016, 01:09:04 am »
Definitely an interesting parallel. One of the meta-themes in the book is how different groups approach similar problems (i.e. Consult/Men/Nonmen and Damnation, various Dunyain and the world, the First and Second Apocalypses). I've thought for a while that there were some strong parallels between Dunyain and Nonmen. Apart from Men, in ways that are both superior (immortal or supremely intelligent) and inferior (insane or incapable of emotion). I half expected Kellhus to offer the Nonmen Dunyain breeding techniques as a way of recruiting with them.