Sorcery

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Somnambulist

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« Reply #150 on: January 03, 2014, 04:18:19 am »
Witches and trees. Whats with all the trees!

There was also that great bit in WLW where the scalpers were talking to Akka about cutting down one of the trees and found a skull embedded in the heartwood.  The backstory of the tree worship in High Ainon, how trees took 100 years to attain sentience, and also how they hated the quick as only the 'perpetually confused' could hate.  Fkn awesome.  Trees and trees and trees, oh my!
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Cüréthañ

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« Reply #151 on: January 03, 2014, 04:20:32 am »
Totally, Wilshire.  I was examining the fact that the Cish probably don't use the utteral/inutteral combo upthread, I think. 
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Wilshire

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« Reply #152 on: January 03, 2014, 02:44:21 pm »
lol Somna. In the prologue of TDTCB there is mention of a tree at nearly every major scene. Living trees, dead trees, fighting like a tree, branches that mesmerize. Trees upon trees from the very beginning.

This thought as stemmed a few more. I wonder if the Witches, who practice outside of school, bare the mark? Certainly the ones like the Swali do, but what about the ones that "harness the wild agencies of earth, animal, and tree" (which, btw, reminds me of of the talking face in the mud). The Wathi Doll could me moved without becoming marked. Akka wrote the word in some Human tongue and Kellhus spoke it. Maybe it didn't mark him because it was spoken without the Nonmen tongue.
The Mandate use this little trick to find potential Few, so those that would be casting this spell would never know the Nonmen tongue and would always be speaking it in a Human language. Perhaps it is not what was spoken but how it was spoken. If all the Witch cants are comprised of minor spells/incantations spoken in some Human tongue, then maybe they never actually bare the mark... (someone can probably find a line of text that refutes all of this, but it sounds good for now :P)

The only other group that we have heard of that could use sorcery are the "Shamans" of old. I don't recall where this was mentioned, (TWP maybe), but I wonder how old they were and what language they spoke? I guess the question there is did Men possess some kind of magic before the Tutelage. If before, again what language and did they have the mark, though if after than there is no mystery.

Akka disconnects language from sorcery for us, but I'm wondering if that is wrong. Maybe it plays a far more important role than we thought.
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locke

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« Reply #153 on: January 03, 2014, 05:00:21 pm »
lol Somna. In the prologue of TDTCB there is mention of a tree at nearly every major scene. Living trees, dead trees, fighting like a tree, branches that mesmerize. Trees upon trees from the very beginning.

Connect this thought to Akka's description of the onta, and we have a plausible explanation for just why Kellhus was so overwhelmed by wild nature (rather than carefully controlled and directed nature)

As for witches, Leweth's description of them, and his particulars in understanding how they work is one of the things that make me think that Moenghus was directing Kellhus' education via the vehicle of Leweth at this point (note the sorcery in the scene where Leweth 'appears to listen to an unheard speaker' before answering Kellhus' questions).  The witches detail is the sort of thing that intricately understands a magical theological distinction of their particular supernatural attributes, you don't see achamian providing that sort of perspective.  he doesn't understand witches because he disdains them.  Just as he doesn't understand the Cishaurim and believes them inferior to the Mandate. 

Not to mention that Leweth is a hermit in a world without hermits (because the Sranc are so dangerous, Akka is the only other one who exists and he's a sorcerer) and has exceptionally accurate knowledge of multiple and varied societies thousands of miles away that he has never visited, and only heard of once or twice in his lifetime from the vanishingly rare caravan.  As solo pointed out with a quote from an ancient text, in comparable mideval times, people believed insane monstrous myths about other civilizations approximately as far away, yet Leweth has none of these prejudices, dispensing instead sage Yoda like instruction to his pupil--complete with a convenient tale of woe that makes Kellhus feel all super-duper prideful and ego-happy when Kellhus "gives" Leweth a revelation about Leweth's past, and Kellhus is so super duper thoroughly pleased with himself for doing it that he is completely and totally deceived, he heard/found what he wanted to, complete with a conclusion that flatters flatters flatters Kellhus just as a Freudian analyst's conclusions were always about flattering the analyst, and promptly stopped thinking. (because if the puzzle is solved why continue probing?)

Wilshire

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« Reply #154 on: January 03, 2014, 05:28:24 pm »
lol Somna. In the prologue of TDTCB there is mention of a tree at nearly every major scene. Living trees, dead trees, fighting like a tree, branches that mesmerize. Trees upon trees from the very beginning.

Connect this thought to Akka's description of the onta, and we have a plausible explanation for just why Kellhus was so overwhelmed by wild nature (rather than carefully controlled and directed nature)
I like that. It could very well be that his "inner eye" opened as he stumbled through the wilderness. That would help justify why he is so miserably stupid for the first few pages. He literally just starts walking south, with no map, no idea how far he is going to go, and without any idea how to hunt/fish/forage or otherwise survive. Its literally one of the dumbest things done in the entire series.

Kellhus also says that Mek's sword "glowed with an otherworldly light", which I think could be the blood of the onta, though that only kind of makes sense, since he doesn't mention the rest of the nonman being stained..

I'm still not with you on the Leweth thing, but if it makes you feel better, we never see Leweth die. Moenghus and Leweth can still be pulling all the strings (but thats not really about sorcery).
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locke

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« Reply #155 on: January 03, 2014, 06:37:56 pm »
Leweth is just a pawn, it doesn't really matter if he's alive or dead.

themerchant

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« Reply #156 on: February 07, 2014, 12:56:47 am »
Trying to find a sorcery thread in a subforum i can talk about everything.

for sorcery we know meaning is everything. and to keep purity of meaning they use a dead nonman languge (nilguynic or something).

during TWP when Kellhus is building up the awe Akka feels for him he proves there is more basic logic in language (i think i hope i'm right) something about relations between whole sentences rather than subjects and predicates.

So obviously Kellhus understands language and it's structure as well/better as any person alive, why couldn't he create his own language for cants using his advanced knowledge of language that allows even more purity of recitation. Akka has already said that other schools use other languages.

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« Reply #157 on: February 07, 2014, 11:49:04 am »
To be honest, we don't know that he hasn't?
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Wilshire

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« Reply #158 on: February 07, 2014, 02:01:27 pm »
I noticed recently that ALL sorcery uses Nonmen language, or a language derived from it at least. I know its said in the text, probably more than once, that the language spoken doesn't matter, but I don't beleive that. Its seems odd to me that that all schools use a Nonman language, and the more powerful the school, the closer  it is to the original Nonman tongue. Anagogis uses a language which is the least related to Nonmen, Gnostic is one step closer, and the Quya probably use an older version still. Strange that a group of creatures who hate the Gods speak best the tongue of the creator (If indeed the Gods created anything)...

This excludes the Cisharuim, but I think they are something else entirely.
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #159 on: April 22, 2014, 06:54:47 pm »
ON THE APOROS
From Cu'jara Cinmoi
Quote
The Aporos possesses a contradictory, or negative, semantics, and as such is able only to undo the positive semantics of things like the Gnosis, Psukhe, Anagogis - even the Daimos
I can't help but wonder if there are as many kinds of negative sematic sorceries as their are positives…

Also, I wonder if the gods' song could be considered 'positive' in which case the Aporos could be used to obliterate or remake the world.

ON SALTING
Would be neat to learn if there is any difference in kind.  Is anagogic salt different from gnostic salt?  Is a salted sorcerer of rank better/worse than a pupil?  Is it like qirri in that way?

ON INCREASED POTENCY
Thinking about Titirga and Kellhus, one seems to draw power from 'purity of meaning' while the other may do the same thing but also adds an additional inutteral.  I'm wondering if these are the only two ways a person can increase their magic power and what are the limits for both?  I like Wilshire's notion that they are the same thing, but I could see them being different.  One more emotive, the other more rational.  Kellhus MUST use a third (or fourth or fifth) string because he lack's Titirga's mojo.

ON VARIETIES OF MAGIC
The succesion in humans of gnostic magic to anagogic to daimotic to psukhe gives the reader the most evidence of variety in sorcery.  But the only thing we know about the nonmen is that they had a version of the gnosis and the aporos and we really don't know much different for the Consult.  Both groups could have been developing lord knows what in the interval.  Psukhe is only 300 years old.  What could a 10,000 year old do?  Perhaps we'll see some new kinds of sorcery in Ishterebinth.  Even just like an elevated form of nonman anagogis would be sweet.

ON FANE
Maybe his ultimate explanation is that he met Ajokli out in the dessert and the trickster taught the old priest a whole new trick to screw with the world.

ON TRANSPOSING
If Serwa is lying about warping bruising the onta, then we might be in for a TUC treat that Kellhus has *already* been to Golgotterath!  Maybe she's telling the truth though, in which case a meta-psukhari could have already mapped out the Ark.  Left some meta-psukhari-wathi dolls to do saboteur's work.

ON LANGUAGE AND SORCERY
Really hoping Kellhus or someone is able to do some bad ass stuff utilizing the original, forgotten nonman language.  Also, what do you get if you sing in a tongue like the srancs'?  Also, since the Anagogis uses a nonman language, does this imply some kind of nonman tutelage that is unrecorded?

ON UTTERALS
I get the feeling that these are unnecessary to people like Kellhus/Moenghus.  Kellhus probably keeps using them to give others the impression that if he doesn't have his mouth open, he isn't casting.

ON RANKING SORCERERS
Maybe Shae is #1?  If that guy is 10 fused souls and mouths, that's a shitload of utterals and inutterals.  I assume Kellhus has thought about this, don't know what a person could do to combat it.  Perhaps Kellhus will apply (has already?) the same principle and fuse some stuff on himself to up the anty.  Maybe like a crown containing many sorcerous souls?  Maybe he'll just possess a hundred or so of his sorcerers and be effectively a bigger Shae than Shae.

ON SHAMANS
Did the Inchoroi do something to humans to extinguish the position of shaman?  If shaman's did magic and were not damned for it, then the perhaps the Inchoroi did something to the human soul/world soul/whatever that made doing magic a crime against nature.  The upshot (for the Inchoroi) is that less people would go into sorcery and the faithful would fight sorcerers thus minimizing the number of human sorcerers that the Inchoroi would have to deal with.  Lol, idk.

Maybe interaction with the nonmen 'poisoned' human ability to manipulate the onta.  Something not rectified until Fane.  The nonmen are so dark and don't think they'd give a fuck about teaching humans how damn themselves.

Any nonmen shamans in Ishterebinth's cellar?

Madness

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« Reply #160 on: April 23, 2014, 12:18:15 pm »
ON THE APOROS
ON SALTING
Would be neat to learn if there is any difference in kind.  Is anagogic salt different from gnostic salt?  Is a salted sorcerer of rank better/worse than a pupil?  Is it like qirri in that way?

We don't know how the differences in taste of the Qirri are determined or what those changes affect? We don't know that sorcerous salt is a hell of a drug?

ON VARIETIES OF MAGIC
The succesion in humans of gnostic magic to anagogic to daimotic to psukhe gives the reader the most evidence of variety in sorcery.  But the only thing we know about the nonmen is that they had a version of the gnosis and the aporos and we really don't know much different for the Consult.  Both groups could have been developing lord knows what in the interval.  Psukhe is only 300 years old.  What could a 10,000 year old do?  Perhaps we'll see some new kinds of sorcery in Ishterebinth.  Even just like an elevated form of nonman anagogis would be sweet.

Lol - I still haven't seen enough Nonmen Gnosis to give up on that. Or Gnosis on Gnosis at all! But Metagnosis does prime us to think that the Consult and the Nonmen would have achieved something in the interval. I'm sure Bakker is going to blow our minds... we've wandered these tracks for too long...

ON TRANSPOSING
If Serwa is lying about warping bruising the onta, then we might be in for a TUC treat that Kellhus has *already* been to Golgotterath!  Maybe she's telling the truth though, in which case a meta-psukhari could have already mapped out the Ark.  Left some meta-psukhari-wathi dolls to do saboteur's work.

Lol. I suspect Kellhus has been to many places in Earwa. And I see no reason to think Serwa lies about bruising the Onta. Honestly, in reading Wilshire's Ch. 3 excerpt about the walking the rest of the way to Ishterebinth, all I could think of was Neo and Trinity approaching the Machine City and some Nonmen sorcerous security system akin to those sentinel artillery are just going to start unloading on them...

ON LANGUAGE AND SORCERY
Really hoping Kellhus or someone is able to do some bad ass stuff utilizing the original, forgotten nonman language.  Also, what do you get if you sing in a tongue like the srancs'?  Also, since the Anagogis uses a nonman language, does this imply some kind of nonman tutelage that is unrecorded?

Or, for instance, if Kellhus made his own sorcerous tongue? This has definitely been suggested elsewhere ;).

ON UTTERALS
I get the feeling that these are unnecessary to people like Kellhus/Moenghus.  Kellhus probably keeps using them to give others the impression that if he doesn't have his mouth open, he isn't casting.

Maybe?

ON RANKING SORCERERS
Maybe Shae is #1?  If that guy is 10 fused souls and mouths, that's a shitload of utterals and inutterals.  I assume Kellhus has thought about this, don't know what a person could do to combat it.  Perhaps Kellhus will apply (has already?) the same principle and fuse some stuff on himself to up the anty.  Maybe like a crown containing many sorcerous souls?  Maybe he'll just possess a hundred or so of his sorcerers and be effectively a bigger Shae than Shae.

I weep for dreams of Synthese to come. The bird is but a ploy ;).

ON SHAMANS
Did the Inchoroi do something to humans to extinguish the position of shaman?  If shaman's did magic and were not damned for it, then the perhaps the Inchoroi did something to the human soul/world soul/whatever that made doing magic a crime against nature.  The upshot (for the Inchoroi) is that less people would go into sorcery and the faithful would fight sorcerers thus minimizing the number of human sorcerers that the Inchoroi would have to deal with.  Lol, idk.

Maybe interaction with the nonmen 'poisoned' human ability to manipulate the onta.  Something not rectified until Fane.  The nonmen are so dark and don't think they'd give a fuck about teaching humans how damn themselves.

Interesting.
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #161 on: April 23, 2014, 08:04:01 pm »
Ooohhh, I like this:

Quote
Or, for instance, if Kellhus made his own sorcerous tongue? This has definitely been suggested elsewhere ;).

Reminds me of Johnathan Strange

(click to show/hide)

Madness

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« Reply #162 on: April 24, 2014, 11:58:11 am »
I really liked that book. And it will forever be linked to a memory of a man chastising me at the PetroCanada I worked at for reading it twice. Lmao - "There's not enough time! You can't read things twice!"
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #163 on: April 24, 2014, 12:06:10 pm »
Lol, that sounds like a Kafka character...or maybe Heller.  Johnathan Strange is probably my favorite book evar!  Read/listened to it even more than Bakker.  :P  Waiting for its sequel makes me appreciate how *soon* TUC will get here!

Madness

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« Reply #164 on: April 24, 2014, 12:17:01 pm »
I'd heard awhile back that a BBC special was in the works.

They done good with the two part The Colour of Magic - though, common'... Jeremy Irons and Tim Curry in a Discworld Adaptation (I guess, Astin is alright as Twoflower :P). Amazing!
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