The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: Hogman on August 19, 2016, 10:14:27 am

Title: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: Hogman on August 19, 2016, 10:14:27 am
Quote
"...We are all mummers here! All of us! Prophet or not, our Holy Aspect Emperor must control what Men see...All of us have roles to play, Proyas, and no one gets to choose which."
"What are you saying!"
"That our parts remain to be written. Perhaps you're to be the fool...or the traitor...or the long-suffering doubter...". A bleary gaze, filled with hilarity and rheumy spite. "Only he knows!"

Did anyone else read this and think there's a double meaning here? On the face of it "he" is Kellhus. But it's also Bakker. Only he knows what will happen.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: Callan S. on August 21, 2016, 10:16:41 am
And ripping off Shakespeare as well! :)

Quote
All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: H on August 29, 2016, 01:01:34 pm
Quote
"...We are all mummers here! All of us! Prophet or not, our Holy Aspect Emperor must control what Men see...All of us have roles to play, Proyas, and no one gets to choose which."
"What are you saying!"
"That our parts remain to be written. Perhaps you're to be the fool...or the traitor...or the long-suffering doubter...". A bleary gaze, filled with hilarity and rheumy spite. "Only he knows!"

Did anyone else read this and think there's a double meaning here? On the face of it "he" is Kellhus. But it's also Bakker. Only he knows what will happen.

I've said it before, but if Bakker "is" anyone in the story, he is definitely Ajolki.  Triple entendre perhaps?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: The Sharmat on August 29, 2016, 02:21:25 pm
If any character is some kind of author avatar it's Achamian.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: Wilshire on September 02, 2016, 06:30:23 pm
If any character is some kind of author avatar it's Achamian.

This.


Also, if anyone read the back of TGO, the acknowledgments clearly state that Bakker is not Kellhus (I believe the first line is "Kellhus I am not"). Also if you havent checked that out, everyone should. The forum gets a mention, w00t.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: Madness on September 08, 2016, 01:14:38 pm
The forum gets a mention, w00t.

So much has changed even just since WLW came out. Though, you know, going further back, it's still surprising that Bakker had a fan forum (ZTS) like his first year out...
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: The Sharmat on September 08, 2016, 11:30:35 pm
This is cult series material and has been from the start. Little to appeal to a general audience. Few fans, but those that exist are bound to be fanatical since there's nothing else in the market like it.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: Callan S. on September 09, 2016, 03:33:15 am
Eh, I'd be curious to see graphs of fans for other fantasy that went on to be fairly mainstream and where they started out. I suspect with the early adopters forming the core of the snowball for some time, accumulating in a slow but exponential curve. I mean, didn't GRRM do stuff before GOT - and it wasn't really on the radar?

I think though that the curve takes longer the more you try to bring up socially controversial ideas. But SA would be like a dead dragon without those - just rusting, iron bones.

Anyway, I work on my serial numbers filed off derivative text based game...it'll have links to the blog and such, so it's a promo tool. Peeps could always look for fan fiction forums and drop some home made SA stuff there :)
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: The Sharmat on September 09, 2016, 06:27:22 am
The Gurm's pre-GOT stuff was mostly short stories back in the 60's and 70's.

I'm really skeptical SA will ever have broad appeal. Which is fine. Not everything can or should.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: Hogman on September 09, 2016, 08:39:09 am
From reviews I've read of the SA, a lot of people slate it because of the status of women in the books. Never mind that it's an accurate reflection of the way the world used to be, and still is in some places. If it ever makes it onto TV, I imagine there would be some politically correct editing, to introduce some strong female characters. The mainstream audience must be catered for, and they love their Arya Starks.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: Wilshire on September 09, 2016, 03:21:04 pm
I'm really skeptical SA will ever have broad appeal. Which is fine. Not everything can or should.

I imagine there would be some politically correct editing

Yup. Lots of that I'm sure.

And TBH, I'm over it. I'd prefer to see details changed in a way that remains mostly true to the overall point of the story but makes TSA the TV series successful, than have a show canceled after 3 episodes that no one ever watches. I will look at it as a derivative work based on TSA books, and do my best to avoid whining about the changes.

Throwing in some stronger female characters from the start would do wonders for making it more appealing - or at least keep it from being totally written off. Besides, more women breaking up the sausage fest that is PoN will make it more visually appealing for many viewers as well, right?

Btw, I don't think we even know what the 'overall point' of the series is. Until TUC is finished, and probably not even then, will there be any consensus on that. Which makes it really tough to determine how important every detail is, and what kind of impact it'll have. 
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: The Sharmat on September 09, 2016, 05:03:09 pm
From reviews I've read of the SA, a lot of people slate it because of the status of women in the books. Never mind that it's an accurate reflection of the way the world used to be, and still is in some places. If it ever makes it onto TV, I imagine there would be some politically correct editing, to introduce some strong female characters. The mainstream audience must be catered for, and they love their Arya Starks.
Arya Stark was great in the books but the show pretty much ruined her character by turning her into a shallow strong woman spunky tomgirl archetype rather than a traumatized war orphan/child soldier who does terrible things.

Sorry for the offtopic. pet peeve.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: Wilshire on September 09, 2016, 05:15:03 pm
That're pretty on topic, TS. I think what appeals to 'the masses' or what produces think will be appealing, is often watered down and archetypal, something that 'everyone' can easily understand and relate to.

I imagine the Serwe character will end up functionally similar to that. She'll be all openly defiant and quick witted, etc, probably even spunky tomgirl. Likely far close to Mimara than Serwe. Not saying that's a good or bad thing, I just think that'll be what happens.

Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: Yellow on September 09, 2016, 05:52:41 pm
I just can't see any of these books making it to the screen. Or at least not in a way that's at all satisfying.

The worst thing though would be if the TV show overtook the books, like with ASoIaF. I couldn't bear having the end of trilogy 3 be shown on screen first, in a sub-par production. Not after all these years.

You are the fist that beats us.

Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: Wilshire on September 09, 2016, 06:01:55 pm
Haha, well, I don't think that's int he cards quite yet.

I think the rights to PoN were sold, but not AE, let alone the unwritten, and unpublished TSTSNBN. Hell, the publication rights to that might not even be sold yet.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: Yellow on September 09, 2016, 06:22:04 pm
I seem to remember him along the rights about 5 years ago as well, but it fell through. Or an I imagining that?

You are the fist that beats us.

Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: Wilshire on September 09, 2016, 06:38:40 pm
The rights for what?

Typically that type of thing is on a limited time frame. He basically gets paid to say they have the first spot in line. Should they choose not to make anything, he can sell them again (he keeps the money).

So, if it was 5 years ago, its probably no longer under contract.

I was specifically referring to Bakker's TPB post (http://bit.ly/TPB-PoN-Rights) a few weeks ago where he said that he just sold PoN TV rights.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: Yellow on September 09, 2016, 07:10:11 pm
Yeah, the TV rights (post above should have said "selling" not "along", autocorrect fail). Could have sworn he's been down this path before and it fell through. Might be confusing it with some other series, though. Rights get sold all the time and usually nothing happens.

You are the fist that beats us.

Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: Wilshire on September 09, 2016, 08:09:05 pm
Certainly. He did mention in another post/comment, I think this summer, that he was close to a deal with Total War video game franchise that fell through.

I think what's key this time is that the rights are sold and he got a check, which will hopefully fund another book :) . Just heresay. Maybe he didn't get paid, what do I know?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: Callan S. on September 09, 2016, 11:53:18 pm
From reviews I've read of the SA, a lot of people slate it because of the status of women in the books. Never mind that it's an accurate reflection of the way the world used to be, and still is in some places.
And they argue 'But there were seamstresses! Self employed women! Focus on that!'. It's like an argument to look away at how women were mistreated and just look at ourselves as if it's been seamstresses all the way down. Which is kind of an anti feminist way to think about it - as if there was never a problem or to avoid looking at the problematic history.

On the other hand I wouldn't mind some seamstress depiction used primarily to show it's the exception to the problematic rule.

But maybe that'd require depicting the Kianene side more than they get, eh? :) Since we seem to be following the bad guys, mostly...
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: The Sharmat on September 10, 2016, 06:14:03 am
The show may not be produced. If the show is produced, the odds of it getting multiple seasons is low. Even if it gets multliple seasons...Bakker is not GRRM. He has to write for his livelihood. 'He can't afford to put it off for a decade.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: MSJ on September 15, 2016, 01:44:15 am
The Gurm's pre-GOT stuff was mostly short stories back in the 60's and 70's.

I'm really skeptical SA will ever have broad appeal. Which is fine. Not everything can or should.

I've said it and I'm sticking to it. It might well take decades but TSA and Bakker will get it's due. I've read A LOT of fantasy and like you said there is nothing else like it. The world-building, myatery, intrigue, plot, great characters and layers of revelation will make it a Classic one day. Its a gut feeling I've had since finishing TTT. One of the greatest endings to any book I've ever read, that has you begging for more. For what will happen to these great characters and where will this enticing story go. Its bound to happen trust me.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus/Bakker
Post by: mrganondorf on September 20, 2016, 03:18:46 am
If any character is some kind of author avatar it's Achamian.

Too true--all of Akka's faults add up to give him extra-judgment; self-efface with one hand, blind brain with the other.  BUT I'M NOT COMPLAINING

But I like Hogman's point!  I think there is an analogue between Bakker and Kellhus because Kellhus appears to be the prime manipulator while RSB is the absolute manipulator for Earwa.  If Kellhus ends up dangling from someone else's strings, then that person will be the 'Bakker' author/god likeythingy.