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Messages - JerakoKayne

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31
General Earwa / [TUC Spoilers] The Celmomian Prophecy
« on: September 23, 2017, 03:46:44 am »
... is completely false! Or at least, as we have been led to believe the After can precede the Before.

Nau-Cayuti was the No-God, and, as Kelmomas, exists outside the Outside. Therefore he could have given no such prophecy to his father.

Yet much (so much!) has been affixed to this "prophecy". Even the Mutilated buy into it. I see very many arguments based upon it on these forums.

To me, this is suggesting a more subtle point about the beliefs of people creating the outcomes, rather than any sense of predestination.

I actually have a great deal of thoughts on this topic, but I'm more curious about yours. Care to share?

[EDIT Madness: Fixed.]

32
The Unholy Consult / Re: Speculiction's What Comes Next!
« on: September 20, 2017, 12:28:16 am »

You have the Celmommian prophecy through the eyes of Celmommas his self and see how its mistranslated.


A slight tangent, but this would be helpful for some speculation I've had that's been nagging at me. But I can't find this passage. Could you point me to it, please?

33
The Unholy Consult / Re: Mutilated "Art"
« on: September 19, 2017, 11:57:21 pm »
You folks certainly don't disappoint. There's a lot of thoughts to consider here already. I've taken a rather strong liking to this one, for the moment:

But also in how it is done.  I don't think simply having an active No-God plus, say, carpet bombing everyone out gets it done either.  It's not just anguish, or death, but something with how that is achieved and possibly something to do with witness of such.

Particularly regarding the idea of witnessing the shutting of the world. At first I had a great degree of trouble reconciling the Dunyain, of all people, having any real personal meaning to the word "art" in their idiolect, at least when speaking among themselves. Though considering it now, it could be a rather profound tell. Art, after all, is an act (or creation) that has as much meaning in the observation of it, as it does in the act itself. And if Mog-Pharau is collapsing subject and object of the "art" of extinction itself...

Perhaps its rudimentary personality is actually significant? To witness these things without witnessing could be a form of contradiction, perhaps? Chorae are rooted in the semantics of contradiction, which could make Mog a sort of giant, metaphysical Chorae for the World itself? i.e. "Those who die here go no farther", like the process of the afterlife itself is negated, Chorae-style.

34
General Q&A / Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
« on: September 17, 2017, 05:01:01 pm »
The basic idea is this: the Quya first developed the Aporos in the prosecution of their own
intercine wars, but it was quickly forbidden. The arrival of the Inchoroi allowed several
renegade Quya to pursue their sorcerous interrogations, leading to the production of tens of
thousands of Chorae, which were used throughout the Cuno-Inchoroi wars.

35
The Unholy Consult / Mutilated "Art"
« on: September 17, 2017, 03:26:46 pm »
I haven't been able to parse the interaction between Kellhus and the Mutilated, most specifically when Kellhus asks (reasonably) why the No-God is necessary.

They respond that it's not just killing people indiscriminately, but it needs to be "artful," even if they had another nuke which gives me a big wtf. How is any of this conducive with the Shortest Path? It sounds like an Inchoroi response, not Dunyain.

It perhaps becomes Shortest, if in fact the Mutilated objective lies after the world has been shut, but what could such an objective possibly be? Do they want to dominate the closed world for domination's sake? It seems more likely they would want to go back to isolation. Unless they've abandoned the pursuit of the Absolute?

Thoughts?

36
The Unholy Consult / Re: [TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang
« on: September 14, 2017, 03:16:45 pm »
The ciphrang were summoned into a topos. They're as close to hell as the world can get, and so couldn't be fully controlled by the sorcerers who summoned them. Demons are not terribly inclined to just wreak wanton havoc once they're here, because Reality is such a painful experience for them. Their interests tend to be more like revenge on the one who dared bind them in this way, and then gtfo.

Since they were in a topos (or at least a particularly strong one) their will to do so was much stronger than the Daimos that summoned them. So the Daimotic sorcerers are basically ciphrang snacks in the Outside now.

[EDIT Madness: No spoiler tags necessary.]

37
General Earwa / Re: [TUC SPOILERS] Foreshadowing in the books.
« on: September 10, 2017, 03:29:30 am »
This is pure speculation, but everything Bakker writes seems significant. True Chekhov's guns, as it were.

There's a scene in TUC where Kellhus tells little Kel that he's constantly switching with Sam. As the story stands right now, it's pretty much a superfluous statement, but the way Bakker writes none of this stuff stays irrelevant forever (especially Kellhus sayings). So I can't help but wonder what the Kel/Sam dual personality means for the No-God. If it survived, maybe Mog has some new insight or perspective on himself this time around.

Beasts move. Men reflect. (No-?)Gods make real.

EDIT: On that note, actually the passage that litany comes from kinda foreshadows his fate, too.

Quote
Kelmomas had been born staring into the deluge that was his twin's face. For a time, he knew, his mother's physicians had feared for him because it seemed he could do little more than gaze at his brother. All he could remember were the squalls of hurt and wheezing gratification, and a hunger so elemental that it swallowed the spaces between them, soldered their faces into a single soul. The world was shouldered to the periphery. The tutors and the physicians had droned from the edges, not so much ignored as overlooked by a two-bodied creature who stared endlessly into its own inscrutable eyes.

38
General Earwa / Re: Mistakes and things that piss off in the series
« on: September 10, 2017, 03:15:31 am »
My annoyances with the story tend to be minor continuity stuff, which in retrospect is usually something I missed, or at least misunderstood. As vague as his writing is, Bakker's consistency seems for the most part to be quite solid.

An example is Saccarees being described in TUC as the youngest Grandmaster the Mandate ever had. Kinda makes me roll my eyes because the Mandate leadership didn't seem to have such central leadership. They were ruled by council in the Quorum. Unless Achamian's musings about being "de facto" GM in TWP actually count somehow, due to his proximity to the events, Saccarees is pretty much the only GM the Mandate ever had, let alone the youngest.

But as I said, these are petty grievances, mostly.

39
General Earwa / Re: The Mechanics of Sorcerous Thought
« on: September 10, 2017, 03:04:33 am »
The difference as I understand it is that the Anagogic sorcerer who wants to set you on fire says "a great big dragon breathes on you" and the Gnostic sorcerer instead says "E=mc²". The latter is much more efficient, but also requires a deeper understanding of what heat is.

Anagogic sorcery is Shakespeare. The Gnosis is Bach.

Nice. This really fits in with the reference of them being the semantic "difference between poetry and mathematics." I couldn't understand the analogy before, but maybe it's a literal thing?

Gnosis war cants do seem highly mathematical, with parabolas and lines and such. While anagogic could be described as "artful" in a sense.

40
General Earwa / The Mechanics of Sorcerous Thought
« on: September 04, 2017, 03:48:37 am »
In PoN, the difference to me was much more clear.

Psukhe was passion made manifest, raw emotion somehow charged into the Real. The emotion itself is the meaning. No "thought, as it were".

Per Iyokus (IIRC) Anagogis is "passion become semantics, and semantics become real". Which is why they need an anchor like a sun or dragons to achieve the semantics (and desired result) of fire. Bringing an analogy to life. Like it was a single thread of thought achieving its results indirectly.

Gnosis (the most elaborated upon in the series, despite being the most "secret", which amuses me. But I digress) instead anchors the thoughts onto themselves. Two thoughts! Bracing each other's meaning. It's the duality of thought itself which seemed to be the secret that allows gnosis to achieve more abstract thought onto the onta. Or so I thought until the new series.

It's suggested now in TUC that all sorcery is rooted in this same duality of thought previously only attributed to the gnosis. And that's the driving mechanic that makes all of it work. If so, what is really the difference between the Anagogis and Gnosis? If the analogies are rooted in the same principles that make the gnosis work, how can it be so impossible for a human to ever have made what would amount to a slightly different application of it?

41
General Q&A / Re: Study of Aporos Among Nonmen
« on: September 04, 2017, 03:32:45 am »
I can't remember exactly where I saw it, but I have the tickle of a memory regarding something about it being a sort of religious issue. The inference I made reading something was that it was Nonman heresy. More specifically, that the Aporos was a rejection of mainstream Cunoroi spirituality, or their notions of the gods and Outside and stuff.

That and they were filthy traitors.

Probably it was some entry in the original PoN glossary, since none of this stuff was ever clear to me, at all, in the story itself.

42
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Why did he return?
« on: September 08, 2016, 11:55:44 am »
Kellhus has had repeating, and lingering, "love" for Esmenet. His emotions are stunted, but there.

43
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Inchoroi Weaponry
« on: September 01, 2016, 12:16:57 pm »
I've been curious about projectile weapons, too. If the Inkies ever really used ballistics is another question entirely, but some of the effects in the few sorcerous battles leads me to wonder just what gets through Wards and what doesn't. Certainly sound does, but perhaps some form of momentum? It's unclear how exactly the 'Odaini Concussion Cant' functions, exactly, but it does seem to go through Akka's opponent's Wards. That whole battle (where Achamian is captured by the Scarlet Spires in Iothiah) makes me wonder how sorcerers would far against, say, a gatling gun or similar. Loud reports and continuous stress produced!

@MSJ I look forward to future sorcery battles, as well! We know of several different varieties already, all with different ways of focusing their intent. Do the Inchoroi use the Gnosis of the Nonmen, or did they come up with some new version as alien to the Schools as are their very alien thoughts? Aurang was limited before, by distance, when we've seen his. When he brings it up close and personal, I really wonder what his sorcerous arsenal will look like.

For that matter, do the Scylvendi have an analogue to the Schools? I don't remember if the Way precludes this or not. That could be another new weapon, too.

44
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Inchoroi Weaponry
« on: August 31, 2016, 03:44:38 am »
If the older tech is in such short supply, or degraded, or whatever else, is it more likely to be a new biotech? Or something crazier than a nuke.

45
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Inchoroi Weaponry
« on: August 30, 2016, 05:31:04 am »
Do you think we will see further weaponry, biological, technical or sorcerous, as the new Apocalypse progresses?

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