ARC: TDTCB: Chapter 2

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MSJ

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« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2018, 06:44:18 am »
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“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2018, 12:22:53 pm »
I do truly wonder how long Simas was a skin spy. My intuition tells me for years at least. But, I don't think he was when training Akka.

Perhaps he didnt start as Simas either. Hard to believe he could replace one of the Quorum on a first bet.

I don't think it has been Simas for so long, but maybe its been in the Mandate for decades. Maybe even as that peer/student Akka loved early on who later died... :)

Either the skin-spy has been Simas for some time, or it has been someone else in Atyersus that would have access to the whereabouts of Mandate agents/ informers.  It's very unlikely to have been another sorceror, because their absence when it switched to Simas would be a red flag.  I'm pretty sure we never get told anything about the organisation of the Mandate other than that the Quorum is a thing, but they must have servants, lackeys etc. 

Its actually fairly difficult to imagine the skin spy penetrating the Mandate. If we assume that skinspies don't really age but are grown/birthed fully formed, then it would be very hard for them to get into any school - since we all but know that Schools only accept child pupils.

Then again, we also know that the Consult are adept gnosis users. With that in mind, I think the most likely thing is that the skinspy was taught the gnosis and allowed to develop a mark of an approriate shade. The Consult, meanwhile, picked out replacement candidates among soft target - probably field agents. Once the spy had a close-enough Mark to the replacee, the switch was made. The spy then spends a long time, years imo, learning the workings of the Mandate, feeding info to the Consult while they figured out who was high enough up to be worth replacing but also not so heavily guarded as to risk exposure.

This is a similar tale to what they normally do - replacing slaves and servents of the true target before going in for the switch - but this is far more delicate since they only have one shot.

When its all said and done, I would guess that the skinspy probably replaced at least one other person before Simas, and eventually replaced Simas before he became a cloistered member of the Quorum, probably at some point when his appointment was largely inevitable.
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BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2018, 12:38:19 pm »
I do truly wonder how long Simas was a skin spy. My intuition tells me for years at least. But, I don't think he was when training Akka.

Perhaps he didnt start as Simas either. Hard to believe he could replace one of the Quorum on a first bet.

I don't think it has been Simas for so long, but maybe its been in the Mandate for decades. Maybe even as that peer/student Akka loved early on who later died... :)
We eventually learn that Simas is a skin-spy with a soul who can, therefore, perform sorcery. Query: Did Not-Simas suffer the Dreams? That would seem unlikely to me; and so Simas was replaced by Not-Simas after becoming a Mandate sorceror. Further, how well can skin-spies simulate the aging process? Even if the answer is "very well", the longer a spy is in place, the more likely it is liable to be discovered.

All this is to say that I think Simas is still Simas in this chapter. And taking Wilshire's excellent argument above into account, I imagine the future Not-Simas is at this time Not-Someone Else, biding his time or awaiting instruction.

Here's a thought: Could our sorcerous skin-spy be responsible for the assassination of the Thousand Temples bigwig? Were the Cishaurim infiltrated first?
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

MSJ

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« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2018, 09:03:13 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
Do skinspies age? Sranc are obviously born, and become adults, but do they have a natural lifespan, or is that why they have such a ridiculous population - they don't die with time.

Wether they age or not (I'd say no, they don't) is really irrelevant. We have the scene in TTT when the one with Cnaüir changes faces in front of him. They have the ability to fake age if the should choose to do so. Skin spies are a undetectable Consult spy....until the Dunyain walked through the wilderness.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2018, 12:23:40 am »
Quote from:  BFK
Did Not-Simas suffer the Dreams?

Thinking on it, here's my take on Simas. The Consult are making SS's and find out they found one with a soul. Maybe it looked innthe IF. I think they then sent Simas to Mandate. Truly, I think he's been there for a while. He would have had to grasp the heart, so yes I believe he has the dreams. Think on it. Simas the SS can appear as a 15 year old with sorcerous abilities. He can use hiaa face to age. It makes most sense that he did the grasping and learnt and gained his bruise through the Mandate. He's the reason the Mandate are clueless and he knows where to send it he SS's. Perfect spy for the Consult.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

JerakoKayne

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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2018, 01:15:35 pm »
I do truly wonder how long Simas was a skin spy. My intuition tells me for years at least. But, I don't think he was when training Akka.

Perhaps he didnt start as Simas either. Hard to believe he could replace one of the Quorum on a first bet.

I don't think it has been Simas for so long, but maybe its been in the Mandate for decades. Maybe even as that peer/student Akka loved early on who later died... :)
We eventually learn that Simas is a skin-spy with a soul who can, therefore, perform sorcery. Query: Did Not-Simas suffer the Dreams? That would seem unlikely to me; and so Simas was replaced by Not-Simas after becoming a Mandate sorceror. Further, how well can skin-spies simulate the aging process? Even if the answer is "very well", the longer a spy is in place, the more likely it is liable to be discovered.

I would infer that not-Simas must have suffered the Dreams. Their dreams are regularly observed by their brothers. We know that sorcerers-of-rank within Atyersus are known and expected targets for Cants of Calling. We also see Achamian Call Nautzera, amid a Dream of Seswatha, and tell him to "send this dream to the others". We can even assume that Mandati sorcerers-of-rank have and thus can be contacted amid mundane dreams (it would be unusual if they did not). But for a particular individual among them to never suffer a true Dream would, I think, be highly unusual and suspicious.

JerakoKayne

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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2018, 01:30:22 pm »
We also have no idea how old the weapon races ca get.

Do skinspies age? Sranc are obviously born, and become adults, but do they have a natural lifespan, or is that why they have such a ridiculous population - they don't die with time.

Skin spies are presumably birthed from the Arc in some way, fully formed. Does time do anything to them? Thing-Called-Simas could be centuries old.

On this note, I had the impression during one of the skin-spy POVs (Sarcellus, I think) it was reminiscing about something centuries before.

BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2018, 01:46:02 pm »
I do truly wonder how long Simas was a skin spy. My intuition tells me for years at least. But, I don't think he was when training Akka.

Perhaps he didnt start as Simas either. Hard to believe he could replace one of the Quorum on a first bet.

I don't think it has been Simas for so long, but maybe its been in the Mandate for decades. Maybe even as that peer/student Akka loved early on who later died... :)
We eventually learn that Simas is a skin-spy with a soul who can, therefore, perform sorcery. Query: Did Not-Simas suffer the Dreams? That would seem unlikely to me; and so Simas was replaced by Not-Simas after becoming a Mandate sorceror. Further, how well can skin-spies simulate the aging process? Even if the answer is "very well", the longer a spy is in place, the more likely it is liable to be discovered.

I would infer that not-Simas must have suffered the Dreams. Their dreams are regularly observed by their brothers. We know that sorcerers-of-rank within Atyersus are known and expected targets for Cants of Calling. We also see Achamian Call Nautzera, amid a Dream of Seswatha, and tell him to "send this dream to the others". We can even assume that Mandati sorcerers-of-rank have and thus can be contacted amid mundane dreams (it would be unusual if they did not). But for a particular individual among them to never suffer a true Dream would, I think, be highly unusual and suspicious.
More support for the idea that, in Chapter Two, Simas is still Simas. My thinking is that Simas is replaced during the Holy War's march to Shimeh.
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2018, 02:20:47 pm »
BFK's ARC: TDTCB, Chapter Two

I like this chapter a lot, especially given all the retrospective interest in Simas/Not-Simas. I find that I prefer "small-screen" Bakker,  and this chapter is a gem. A three-way  confrontation among Simas (good cop), Nautzera (bad cop) and Achamian. [Aside: I'm reading Simas as not having been replaced by Not-Simas in this scene.] I didn't realize until now how old Nautzera was. There's a nice mention of the architectural style of the ancient North (whose architects "knew nothing of arches and domes"). Achamian shows weariness and even skepticism over the Mandate's mission of opposition to the Consult.

Then, we get to the concern and perplexity over Maithenet and the need for the Inrau ploy. Nautzera and Simas tell Achamian that they suspect that Maithenet may be a Consult agent, or at least that there is something "new" about this Shriah.

Here's a thought for the Not-Simas theory: Simas argues with Nautzera that Achamian should have been given the information that Maithenet's target of his Holy War is already known by the Mandate. Why would a Not-Simas argue this point? Wheels within wheels...

Chapter Two Body Count: Zero!
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

JerakoKayne

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« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2018, 06:06:21 pm »
I do truly wonder how long Simas was a skin spy. My intuition tells me for years at least. But, I don't think he was when training Akka.

Perhaps he didnt start as Simas either. Hard to believe he could replace one of the Quorum on a first bet.

I don't think it has been Simas for so long, but maybe its been in the Mandate for decades. Maybe even as that peer/student Akka loved early on who later died... :)
We eventually learn that Simas is a skin-spy with a soul who can, therefore, perform sorcery. Query: Did Not-Simas suffer the Dreams? That would seem unlikely to me; and so Simas was replaced by Not-Simas after becoming a Mandate sorceror. Further, how well can skin-spies simulate the aging process? Even if the answer is "very well", the longer a spy is in place, the more likely it is liable to be discovered.

I would infer that not-Simas must have suffered the Dreams. Their dreams are regularly observed by their brothers. We know that sorcerers-of-rank within Atyersus are known and expected targets for Cants of Calling. We also see Achamian Call Nautzera, amid a Dream of Seswatha, and tell him to "send this dream to the others". We can even assume that Mandati sorcerers-of-rank have and thus can be contacted amid mundane dreams (it would be unusual if they did not). But for a particular individual among them to never suffer a true Dream would, I think, be highly unusual and suspicious.
More support for the idea that, in Chapter Two, Simas is still Simas. My thinking is that Simas is replaced during the Holy War's march to Shimeh.


Perhaps, but only if it is assumed that a skin-spy couldn't dream the Dreams. Seemingly, if a skin-spy touches the Heart, it happens to their soul the same as it happens to a human. Perhaps that is how it was discovered that the skin-spy had a soul in the first place, i.e. it got imprinted when handling the Heart trying to steal it?

Taken in context with how his brothers interact with him, I really think we see the same creature from here until its exposure. I have to bring up the next chapter for a moment, because it helps illustrate. There, Ikurei Istriya is introduced for the first time, and the text nearly screams that she has just been replaced (EDIT - Chapter 3 is my favorite chapter for this very issue, so I'll wait for most of that until next week). From the first, Xerius notices "something strange in her manner, something bottled, akin to Akka's observations of unusual behaviors in not-Simas. Discrepencies of body and character both, in how Istriya behaved and seemed ("Have you finally lost your touch...", had age finally caught up with her, etc.)

These are echoed in Simas too, who has discrepencies about his eyes. No matter their apparent age, Simas' eyes aren't failing because he's not actually aging with Nautzera. N himself comments that he, at least, knows that the way Simas acts is not at all Simas 'true' nature (when that front falters a moment in irritation "At last we see the real you, old friend.") The difference between Nautzera and Xerius, in the next chapter is that Nautzera knows these discrepencies as a part of Simas' character, so long has he had them. In Istriya they have just recently changed.

They're subtle things, but not too subtle in this regard, at least. Here in Bakker's first work, I can't help but think that any such subtletly, especially one that repeats later is quite deliberate. None of these lines were rushed, or in error (as later books suffer from) and will repeat again throughout PoN, at least, so I can't help but think Bakker was attempting to seed these as the clues we can use to track the skin-spies.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 06:26:53 pm by JerakoKayne »

JerakoKayne

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« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2018, 06:34:21 pm »
I almost feel like drawing up a table as we go along, to track the skin-spies we see, and draw up more commonalities in how they act and are perceived. There's almost always at least one confirmed skin-spy around. In chapter 1 we don't have a name (but I assume we'll see him again, at least in TWP) as one murders Geshrunni. Chapter Two has not-Simas. Chapter three has Skeaos and Istriya. It might be neat to track.

BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2018, 08:50:50 pm »
Nicely argued, JK. But I don't think the Consult would risk the Mandate's discovery of the existence of skin-spies by a high-level infiltration such as replacing Simas with the one, irreplaceable souled skin-spy. That's a valuable piece to be held in reserve until events warrant its deployment.

Unless, as I've speculated above, the sorceror/skin-spy was responsible for the assassination of Sasheoka, the Thousand Temples Grandmaster.
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

JerakoKayne

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« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2018, 09:15:19 pm »
What were they risking? Even assuming "Simas" was old, say 60s or 70s?, the Consult's skin-spies had already been in full operation, completely undetected for two and a half centuries. What better place to use such an asset, than in the very heart of their enemy?

Whenever the creature first infiltrated could easily, and likely would have been much earlier than ten years before 'present', until which time they had no reason to suspect they would be suspected. They likely did have contingency plans for discovery, too.

A plausible scenario might be that it's been doing this for decades, as far more than just Simas. When it comes time for "Simas" to die, it studies another member of the Quorum for a time. Who else has better access to them but each other? "Simas" death is then manufactured and the creature simply steps into the role of its new target with a similar Mark. It would only need keep its use of sorcery to a minimum over time to keep its Mark from deepening too much. Where better, than in the heart of a fortress, and thus safety? It's impossible to say how long it could keep up this routine, but I think it's plausible it could have been there from the beginning, if they live for centuries, even if not as "Simas".

Always some member of the Quorum. By their nature, the Mandate are going to be reluctant to ever begin to suspect them.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 09:18:06 pm by JerakoKayne »

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2018, 02:32:52 pm »
My comments on chapter 2, sorry for the long delay.


Quote
"No. We've not seen this 'kind' before. None has moved this fast, or with such cunning. Maithanet is no mere enthusiast. Within the first three weeks of his tenure two plots to poison him were uncovered-and here's the thing-by Maithanet himself. No fewer than seven of the Emperor's agents were exposed and executed in Sumna. This man is more than simply shrewd. Far more."

Very nice foreshadowing of Maithanet being a (half-)Dûnyain, I for one I'm embarrassed of how long it took for me to realize what was going on with him (I only put the pieces together early in TTT, but then again I did go through these books very fast the first time).
Like Madness once said in the Quorum, a PON prequel with Maithanet as one of the main characters would be just so interesting. Seriously, the mention of how he uncovered these plots and identified these spies makes it out to be a very good example of what TVTropes would refer to as an "offscreen moment of awesome" (well, off-page in this case).


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The ancient sorcerer had always possessed a disconcerting presence: intimidating because of his height and yet pathetic because of his great age. His skin seemed an insult to the silks that draped him.

Wow, that's some extreme ageism right there, Achamian. Especially bad after I checked Nautzera's birth year in the wiki and realized that he was born in 4038, meaning he would be 71-72 in 4110. That means that Nautzera in PON was just a couple of years older than Achamian himself during TAE. Suddenly, I don't feel bad at all when I remember Sorweel and Kelmomas' POVs referring to him as "an ancient beggar" (or something similar).


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Unlike the others, those like Nautzera, he could distinguish his age from the one he dreamt night after night. He could see the difference. The Mandate was not merely poised between epochs-it was poised between dreams and waking life.

This becomes wonderfully ironic after Achamian becomes a "prophet of the past" in between series and over the course of TAE, doesn't it? Living more in the dreams than in the present, having the separation between the two grow more and more blurry and indistinct...


Quote
Achamian turned to him, caught by something in his tone.
Simas's gaze faltered. A small struggle darkened his face. He continued.
"You've noticed how intense the Dreams have become. I can see that much in your eyes. We've all become a little wild-eyed as of late . . . Something . . ." He paused, unfocused his eyes as though counting his own heartbeat. Achamian felt his hackles rise. He'd never seen Simas like this. Indecisive. Frightened, even.

A clue something is off about him. Interesting that this comes after the "Perhaps dangerous enought to be sceptical even of our scepticism" line. We know all about skin-spies' issues with paradoxes and the like, might be his own comment confused him a little and rendered him unable to "function properly" for a short while, which Akka interpreted as fear? Yes, I know that this probably shouldn't happen in the case of this particular skin-spy, due to him having a soul, but they're still artificial beings, and we have no idea what were the circumstances that caused thing-called-Simas to have a soul in the first place. There could be some "strangeness" there, even with the soul.
And yes, I'm in the "Simas was already a skin-spy at this time" camp. I do think it's plausible that he had been around for a few decades (after all, the same was presumably true of Skeaös). While skin-spies are either functionally immortal or, at the very least, seem to have extremely long lifespans (if I remember correctly, the Serwë skin-spy mentions having been a Scylvendi a couple of centuries before), it does make sense that they could acurately mimic aging.


Quote
But where Proyas had gone proud, overfed on the knowledge he would someday be King, Inrau had remained . . . Inrau.

Wait a minute, Proyas was never supposed to be king of Conriya. He had an older brother, who was still alive and well at the time Achamian was Proyas' tutor. There might be an inconsistency here, and I believe something similar later comes up in TUC...


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How many years had passed since he'd last visited Sumna? Five? Seven? He idly wondered if he'd find Esmenet there, whether she still lived.

Just keeping note of these temporal references to try to figure out when exactly did Achamian and Esmenet first meet (I don't think there's enough information for that, but I can try).


Quote
Why did he begrudge Simas so? Was it because the man's eyes had yet to fail, while Nautzera, like so many others, had to rely on his students to read to him?

See, this to me is evidence that Simas had to be a skin-spy at this time. Sure, it's not implausible that human Simas would be still be able to read (especially since he'd be over a decade Nautzera's junior - only 57-58 as of 4110, thank you wiki). But this taken together with Skeaös' abnormal agility for his apparent age later on does make it seem like Simas was indeed a skin-spy at this point.


Quote
But if the years had taught Nautzera one thing about Polchias Simas, was that the man was so shrewd as he was devoid of sentiment.

Something already present in the original Simas? A personality deliberately cultivated by the skin-spy? Or another indicator that he was not actually human?
It's kind of a shame that this is the last we see of Simas (whether or not he's the thing-called-Simas at this point) until the skin-spy's reveal in TTT. To me, Maithanet revealing he was an anomaly with the soul just brought to mind so many questions and made the whole situation so much more intriguing. I wish we could have seen more of this skin-spy, given how unique he was.
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BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2018, 08:28:57 pm »
Quote
Achamian turned to him, caught by something in his tone.
Simas's gaze faltered. A small struggle darkened his face. He continued.
"You've noticed how intense the Dreams have become. I can see that much in your eyes. We've all become a little wild-eyed as of late . . . Something . . ." He paused, unfocused his eyes as though counting his own heartbeat. Achamian felt his hackles rise. He'd never seen Simas like this. Indecisive. Frightened, even.

A clue something is off about him. Interesting that this comes after the "Perhaps dangerous enought to be sceptical even of our scepticism" line. We know all about skin-spies' issues with paradoxes and the like, might be his own comment confused him a little and rendered him unable to "function properly" for a short while, which Akka interpreted as fear? Yes, I know that this probably shouldn't happen in the case of this particular skin-spy, due to him having a soul, but they're still artificial beings, and we have no idea what were the circumstances that caused thing-called-Simas to have a soul in the first place. There could be some "strangeness" there, even with the soul.
And yes, I'm in the "Simas was already a skin-spy at this time" camp. I do think it's plausible that he had been around for a few decades (after all, the same was presumably true of Skeaös). While skin-spies are either functionally immortal or, at the very least, seem to have extremely long lifespans (if I remember correctly, the Serwë skin-spy mentions having been a Scylvendi a couple of centuries before), it does make sense that they could acurately mimic aging.
Quote
Why did he begrudge Simas so? Was it because the man's eyes had yet to fail, while Nautzera, like so many others, had to rely on his students to read to him?

See, this to me is evidence that Simas had to be a skin-spy at this time. Sure, it's not implausible that human Simas would be still be able to read (especially since he'd be over a decade Nautzera's junior - only 57-58 as of 4110, thank you wiki). But this taken together with Skeaös' abnormal agility for his apparent age later on does make it seem like Simas was indeed a skin-spy at this point.


Quote
But if the years had taught Nautzera one thing about Polchias Simas, was that the man was so shrewd as he was devoid of sentiment.

Something already present in the original Simas? A personality deliberately cultivated by the skin-spy? Or another indicator that he was not actually human?
It's kind of a shame that this is the last we see of Simas (whether or not he's the thing-called-Simas at this point) until the skin-spy's reveal in TTT. To me, Maithanet revealing he was an anomaly with the soul just brought to mind so many questions and made the whole situation so much more intriguing. I wish we could have seen more of this skin-spy, given how unique he was.
If this is, indeed, the last appearance of Simas/Not-Simas until he's outed in TTT, then I take that as an indication that Simas is still Simas in this chapter. ThoughtsOfThelli makes a good case for Not-Simas (as did JerakoKayne earlier), but consider: as we proceed in TDTCB, our skin-spy POV will be Not-Sarcellus, a "normal" skin-spy. Bakker spends much time on the "sham" of the skin-spy's "soul". The anomalous ensouled skin-spy, Not-Simas, doesn't really influence the plot as significantly as one would think, in retrospect. So I'm happy to be in the Simas = Simas camp. I will wait upon events.
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson