Women are very important to this series

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profgrape

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« on: November 21, 2013, 10:34:54 pm »
Some else that occurred to me after re-reading TJE and WLW: women are going to play a very important role in the AA series.

I can predict what that role is.  But we know that RSB is a deliberate, intentional writer who doesn't hesitate to trim the fat if it doesn't server a specific purpose, for example, the "deleted scenes" in Atrithau where Khellus recruits his first followers.   So all of the material involving female characters(Esme, Mimara, Serwa, Psatma), mother-child relationships, pregnancy and birth (Mimara, Yatwer, Womb Plague) *must* be building toward something big. 

I just can't imagine RSB doing it just because -- he's too good for that.  And it might just explain why he's seemingly amused by the accusations of misogyny.

sciborg2

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« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2013, 12:20:21 am »
We'll see.

AFAIK we've ever gotten a good explanation for why women aren't recruited into the Schools, so I'm not so sure Bakker has considered his thematic plans all that well when it comes to women.

It seems that Mimara's womb will at least be a big deal since the JE apparently is the eye of the unborn, which is also God's viewpoint.

Francis Buck

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« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2013, 05:18:22 am »
It seems that Mimara's womb will at least be a big deal since the JE apparently is the eye of the unborn, which is also God's viewpoint.

Can you elaborate on this? Not ringing any bells for me.

Callan S.

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« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2013, 10:13:54 am »
I just can't imagine RSB doing it just because -- he's too good for that.  And it might just explain why he's seemingly amused by the accusations of misogyny.
Not that I'm groovy with the accusations of misogyny, but it's a bit like saying the universe is a benign entity --- if you just wait long enough, you'll see!

I think he may have succumbed to academic idealism in making such a turn around take so many pages to deliver, rather than serving genre.

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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2013, 02:38:01 pm »
Some else that occurred to me after re-reading TJE and WLW: women are going to play a very important role in the AA series.

I can predict what that role is.  But we know that RSB is a deliberate, intentional writer who doesn't hesitate to trim the fat if it doesn't server a specific purpose, for example, the "deleted scenes" in Atrithau where Khellus recruits his first followers.   So all of the material involving female characters(Esme, Mimara, Serwa, Psatma), mother-child relationships, pregnancy and birth (Mimara, Yatwer, Womb Plague) *must* be building toward something big. 

I just can't imagine RSB doing it just because -- he's too good for that.  And it might just explain why he's seemingly amused by the accusations of misogyny.

+1. Layers of Revelation - which, of course, will rewrite the narrative entire and reframe all the speculative nerdanels nearest and dearest to us.

But haters gonna hate, pg.

Though, on trimming the fat, there is that one instance where a section with Cnaiur and Kellhus referencing Hearts before the Circumfixion was axed... which apparently leads to our endless debates on Kellhus and Serwe's Heart.

AFAIK we've ever gotten a good explanation for why women aren't recruited into the Schools, so I'm not so sure Bakker has considered his thematic plans all that well when it comes to women.

We know from Esmenet that her matrilineal line is of the Few and many practiced as Witches - she only didn't at the behest of her Mother, apparently because of the social grief it causes. We know from our own history that men don't exactly need reason or quality rationale as to barring woman from institutions in society (or even social positions of equal subjective value).

I honestly think Bakker doubts how much future revelations will or won't reframe the narrative, in this case. Because the only criticism I can actually concede that might eat at him is that taking six books to overturn what some see as narrative overkill in terms of the treatment of women, thus far, is too many books. Though, I would personally contend this with the narrative itself because I personally think there is as much feminism to read into in Bakker's books as there is in any feminist texts I've studied - trust me, as a school of philosophy some 'feminist texts' aren't exactly rigorous in contextualizing their 'evidence,' just like any school of philosophy has its less carefully articulate proponents.

However, as far as I think I could argue, I think that his womanly Layer of Revelation will forge another unique reading experience of the entire narrative.

It seems that Mimara's womb will at least be a big deal since the JE apparently is the eye of the unborn, which is also God's viewpoint.

Can you elaborate on this? Not ringing any bells for me.

Quote from: WLW, p90
"As far as I know," he [Achamian] begins with obvious and infuriating care, "those with the Judging Eye give birth to dead children."

...

"The Judging Eye is the eye of the Unborn... the eye that watches from the God's own vantage."
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 02:40:27 pm by Madness »
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Wielokropek

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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2013, 04:22:31 pm »
We know from Esmenet that her matrilineal line is of the Few and many practiced as Witches - she only didn't at the behest of her Mother, apparently because of the social grief it causes. We know from our own history that men don't exactly need reason or quality rationale as to barring woman from institutions in society (or even social positions of equal subjective value).

Quote from: TWP,p.121
"Did I ever tell you," she said, flinching from these thoughts, "that my mother read the stars?"

"Dangerous," he replied, "especially in the Nansurim. Didn't she know the penalties?"

The prohibitions against astrology were as severe as those against witchcraft.

This is the only time I can recall Esmenet talking about her matrilineal line, and she only says her mother read the stars. Were they actually of the Few?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 04:30:19 pm by Wielokropek »

Madness

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« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2013, 02:37:03 am »
Quote from: TWP,p.121
"Did I ever tell you," she said, flinching from these thoughts, "that my mother read the stars?"

"Dangerous," he replied, "especially in the Nansurim. Didn't she know the penalties?"

The prohibitions against astrology were as severe as those against witchcraft.

This is the only time I can recall Esmenet talking about her matrilineal line, and she only says her mother read the stars. Were they actually of the Few?


The quote continues:

Quote from: TWP, p121
The future was too valuable to be shared with caste-menials. "Better to be a whore, Esmi," her mother would say. "Stones are nothing more than far-flung fists. Better to be beaten than to be burned..."

How old had she been? Eleven?

"She knew, which was why she refused to teach me..."

But either way, you're right, thanks Wielokropek. That is the third major lapse I've even experienced on this forum :(. It's why I try to ask questions rather than making claims. But thanks for marking my error. More damning still is that nowhere can I find an Esmenet perspective where she describes seeing the Mark.

Retracted

We know from Esmenet that her matrilineal line is of the Few and many practiced as Witches - she only didn't at the behest of her Mother, apparently because of the social grief it causes. We know from our own history that men don't exactly need reason or quality rationale as to barring woman from institutions in society (or even social positions of equal subjective value).

But what we can substitute what I did write with astrology instead of sorcery...

I initially laughed at Xerius' Augur in PON but as of TAE it seems to raise the legitimate question as to whether or not one can predict the future from the stars in Earwa universe?
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Wilshire

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« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2013, 02:54:06 am »
I never reconsidered that position. I guess its unfair to assume that you cannot predict the future with stars in Earwa.
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locke

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« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2013, 08:55:43 am »
Esmenet probably does not see the mark because she is not one of the Few, despite coming from genetics in which it is common.  This is why her mother actually did not teach her.  And her mother lied to her and rather than tell her, "sorry you don't have the awesome abilities that tend to pop up in our family, you're such a genetic failure," her mother softens the blow and says, "I'm doing it to protect you, it's for your own good." 

Madness

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« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2013, 02:12:15 pm »
It's an easy stretch of ambiguity.

For instance, Bakker marks the analogy between the socially respected power of the both sorcery and astrology (they're both persecuted equally).

...

It would really add a whole 'nother dimension to the series. A group emerges that basically knows when and where the White-Luck is going to work Inevitability and either helps or hinders him?

... What comes after determines what comes before?
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profgrape

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« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2013, 01:57:41 pm »
Quote
... What comes after determines what comes before?

Mind blown!

Callan S.

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« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2013, 03:49:16 am »
Doesn't that run into the usual problem of prediction - if you know what's going to happen, the more you interfear in it (deliberately or even just inadvertantly while hanging around), the more it spoils whatever means by which you knew what was going to happen?

locke

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« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2013, 08:38:34 am »
Doesn't that run into the usual problem of prediction - if you know what's going to happen, the more you interfear in it (deliberately or even just inadvertantly while hanging around), the more it spoils whatever means by which you knew what was going to happen?

Nah, history has inertia. and inertia is a force that counterbalances butterfly interference.


On a more silly level:
Bakker has agency.  Bakker is in control of the narrative.  therefore the narrative itself has agency and force.  So the interference is managed and events are not just shit that happens, everything that is crafted in any secondary world/fictive universe is inherently at the will and agency of the author in question.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 08:40:43 am by locke »

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« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2013, 12:31:36 pm »
Or everything happens as it was always going to happen. So whatever you do with your clairvoyant knowledge, it doesn't matter, because you were always going to do whatever you were going to do with your clairvoyant knowledge.

Our perception of Free Will, but even its actual metaphysical existence, can coexist with Divine Fate. Hell, the randomness of Free Will itself becomes an aspect of predetermination.
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Callan S.

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« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2013, 12:43:26 am »
Quote
So whatever you do with your clairvoyant knowledge, it doesn't matter, because you were always going to do whatever you were going to do with your clairvoyant knowledge.
That really only works out if there is a second time stream - the real one and the regular one, which is just a byproduct of the real one. Even then, the clairvoyant is by dint of the power, partially situated on the real time stream.

That or we retroactivly redefine clairvoyance into something fairly pointless.