[SuJuroit]

I had a number of questions about TUC (and still do), but following the revelations from yesterday’s AMA, I think I now have enough information to answer one of the biggest (to my satisfaction anyway), namely, WTF is going on with Kellhus and Ajokli.

The key piece was RSB’s confirmation in the AMA that Kellhus’ goal was to stop Resumption and “save the world”.  That, coupled with Kellhus’ claim that he’d “struck bargains with the Pit” made the pieces start to fall into place for me.

1.  When did the partnership between Kellhus and Ajokli start?  Not super important, but interesting.  My best guess is the Circumfixion; the whole Serwe's heart (HitB) thing was Kellhus performing a miracle using Godpower.  How did he access the Godpower considering he’d never been to the Outside at this point, let alone know the Daimos?  Block universe.  Once Kellhus allied with Ajokli in his future, he was always allied with Ajokli from the perspective of Ajokli. 

2.  What did Ajokli and Kellhus get out of a partnership?  Kellhus apparently really did want to stop the Consult/save the world.  Being Kellhus, he determined that he needed a trump card, a power even greater than the meta-Gnosis and his kung fu mastery.  Especially with the high likelihood he’d be facing one or more Dunyain.  Godpower from Ajokli gives him that power so he can pull stunts like “I am Master here!”.  He probably also wanted to avoid Damnation.  Ajokli wants several things.  First and foremost, he wants to manifest in the Inward to feast on it.  But he also doesn’t want the Granary to be closed with him baying at the gate like a hungry wolf.  He’d sensed something was off the last time the No-God manifested, but now here comes this reverse prophet telling him what was what AND offering to help keep the Granary open?  Deal.  Especially since Ajokli apparently planned on screwing Kellhus and manifesting in the Inward when he had the opportunity (Ajokli gonna Ajokli).

3.  What’s the Head On A Pole?  Dunno, but it’s pretty clearly not Ajokli, since Kellhus apparently needed it/used it to strike his treaties with the Pit.  I wonder if it had something to do with all those mysterious murders in 4021?  Perhaps the manifestation of the Head requires the sacrifice of somebody who loves/trusts the Daimotic sorcerer?

4.  Why are the rest of the Hundred hunting Ajokli?  Because they don’t see what he sees or know what he knows (remember, he's always been allied with Kellhus, which is how his Narindari know this in the WLW).  From their perspective, he’s just being a dick, trying to raid the ‘fridge and hog all the food for himself. 

Ajokli:  “Hey guys, there’s some serious shit about to go down in the Inward and we risk getting shut off from the yummy food.” 

The Hundred: “Yeah sure Trickster God, pull the other one.  How about you stop messing around with the Inward before we come over there and kick your ass?” 

Ajokli: “Grrrrrrr….”  . 

Here’s the weird timey-wimey thing about the blindness of the Hundred to the No-God though; they can’t see him at all, in any way, but they CAN see the results of his presence (which they ascribe to men being jerks).  IF the No-God ever actually succeeded in closing the world, the Hundred would see that because they see the entire timeline at once and they would see a time where the world is closed, thus no more Granary.  But there’s no textual evidence they see anything of the sort. Therefore, it’s pre-ordained that the No-God MUST fail and the world is never closed.  Probably due to Ajokli’s fiddling with Kellhus and the timeline.

5.  Did Kellhus want/intend for Ajokli to manifest in the Inward?  Kellhus is super smart, and he’s well aware of topoi, the nature of Ajokli, etc., so the possibility couldn’t be a surprise to him.  RSB indicated in the AMA that it wasn’t really what Kellhus intended or wanted, but he couldn’t stop it due to a combination of lack of knowledge (darkness), lack of spiritual strength due to his feeble Dunyain passion, etc.  The most common reading of the Decapitants glossary entry seems to be that Ajokli tried to manifest into the Inward through Mengidda but Kellhus was able to resist him.  That seems reasonable to me, and might explain why Kellhus took the risk in the Golden Room; “I was able to keep him out once, I can probably do it again.  And if I can’t, well Resumption will still be prevented because that’s the one thing Ajokli desperately wants to avoid as well.”

6.  Where’s Kellhus post TUC?  We know three things for sure; he is dead, Ajokli can’t find him, and he is NOT Mimara’s baby.  I see 3 likely possibilities.  1.  Kellhus is in the other Decapitant.  2.  Kellhus found Oblivion.  3.  Kellhus saw himself descending as Hunger in the Inverse Fire, so he’s in the Outside where he’s used his super smarts to create an “intentional reality” where he can hide from Ajokli.

7.  Why did Kellhus want to stop Resumption?  This is the one question I can’t really answer, and it probably goes to the heart of what RSB is trying to accomplish in creating a “crash space” of meaning and morality.  Resumption means genocide and the likely extinction of humanity.  But it also means 144k souls will escape Damnation and no new souls will be born to eventually wind up in the Pit, which we’ve been repeatedly told is the worst thing imaginable.  Stopping Resumption means mankind gets to keep existing but Damnation awaits the vast majority of them.  And Ajokli’s manifestation in the Inward seems like the worst of all possible worlds.  He creates Hell on earth and THEN people die and their souls wind up in the Pit.  Even if Kellhus, in his hubris, believed he could prevent Ajokli from manifesting in the Golden Room (which he couldn’t), the Granary keeps on functioning in all its horror.  A headscratcher, which it was probably intended to be all along.

[Woden]

Good post.

I too believe that the start of Ajokli-Kellhus "partnership" is the Circumfixion. The halos start to manifest (as false light) short time later (in TTT if I remember well).

[Baztek]

Two things:

It's precisely because the Gods see a block universe that the No-God succeeds (even Kellhus says the Inchoroi eventually win) - what's "outside" the block is Resumption. If the No-God is a "void" in the block, Resumption is the "space" around the block - ie, a disenchanted universe.

I'm pretty sure Kellhus seeing himself as a hunger in the Outside is just Ajokli speaking. Even before he enters the Golden Room Kellhus/Ajokli says "I am the master here", so Ajokli was manifesting from the start.

So Kellhus needed Ajokli to get a leg up on the Consult to stop Resumption, great, but what was his endgame after that? Nigga you just struck a pact with the universe's Satan, the world is still open to the Gods, what're ya gonna do now? I don't get it.

[The Sharmat]

I only disagree with two points.

Last bit of Point 4: I think the Gods can't see or conceive of a time that's shut off to them,  or a thing that can cause it. So in reality their blindness to the No-God means, as Kellhus said, that at some point in time the No-God successfully seals reality (though, maybe not this particular time)

Point 7: I think Kellhus's goal basically became a variant of Ajokli's goal. Escape damnation by becoming a prince of Hell. So he'd be the one doing the damning and feasting. Unfortunately for him Ajokli is way ahead of him and always was, because of both of their natures. I think Ajokli can't find Kellhus because right now, the Ajokli we see at the very end, is in the world, and cut off from the Outside by the No-God. Kellhus is in the Outside, so no Kellhus to be found.

Cnaiür can't catch a break. But then, if he could, I guess he'd not be the God of Hate.

[Woden]

I'm pretty sure Kellhus seeing himself as a hunger in the Outside is just Ajokli speaking. Even before he enters the Golden Room Kellhus/Ajokli says "I am the master here", so Ajokli was manifesting from the start.

I think the same. These words seem to fit more with Ajokli in control.

[The Sharmat]

I don't see how those words are un-Kellhus like. Could easily be either or both of them speaking, to me.

So Kellhus needed Ajokli to get a leg up on the Consult to stop Resumption, great, but what was his endgame after that? Nigga you just struck a pact with the universe's Satan, the world is still open to the Gods, what're ya gonna do now? I don't get it.

I think he believed with sufficient mastery of the Daimos he could usurp Ajokli. He was very wrong.

[Madness]

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, SuJuroit .

[Baztek]

I don't see how those words are un-Kellhus like. Could easily be either or both of them speaking, to me.

So Kellhus needed Ajokli to get a leg up on the Consult to stop Resumption, great, but what was his endgame after that? Nigga you just struck a pact with the universe's Satan, the world is still open to the Gods, what're ya gonna do now? I don't get it.

I think he believed with sufficient mastery of the Daimos he could usurp Ajokli. He was very wrong.

Makes a bit more sense, but Kellhus trying to become a God in the Outside is very unlike him - he's supposed to be an AI, what does he care about power and desire? He arguably has no hunger to even act on. I get it's a way of avoiding damnation, but why not ally with the Consult and destroy them when they're no longer expedient?

[SuJuroit]

So Kellhus needed Ajokli to get a leg up on the Consult to stop Resumption, great, but what was his endgame after that? Nigga you just struck a pact with the universe's Satan, the world is still open to the Gods, what're ya gonna do now? I don't get it.

Yeah, that's what I'm getting at in #7.  It's also the part that left me more confused following the AMA.  RSB both confirmed that Kellhus wanted to stop Resumption/Save the world AND that TTT stopped at the Golden Room.  So even if everything goes as well as possible and Kellhus manages to keep Ajokli out, the Granary is still open for business and the vast majority of humanity will suffer an unimaginably horrific fate.  Thanks Kellhus!

I think Kellhus's goal basically became a variant of Ajokli's goal. Escape damnation by becoming a prince of Hell. So he'd be the one doing the damning and feasting. Unfortunately for him Ajokli is way ahead of him and always was, because of both of their natures. I think Ajokli can't find Kellhus because right now, the Ajokli we see at the very end, is in the world, and cut off from the Outside by the No-God. Kellhus is in the Outside, so no Kellhus to be found.

I dunno, RSB pretty much confirmed that TTT ended at the Golden Room.  If so, that could indicate that what we saw was Kellhus' endgame; stop the Consult using Ajokli's power and then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.  On the other hand, this would explain why Kellhus was so concerned with stopping Resumption; leaving the Granary in operation becomes a feature not a bug.  I like it, although it does seem to contradict RSB's claim that Kellhus wanted to "save the world".  I guess that phrase is ambiguous enough that it permits all kinds of interpretations. 

I don't see how those words are un-Kellhus like. Could easily be either or both of them speaking, to me.

Agreed. 

I think the Gods can't see or conceive of a time that's shut off to them,  or a thing that can cause it. So in reality their blindness to the No-God means, as Kellhus said, that at some point in time the No-God successfully seals reality (though, maybe not this particular time)

I'm not so much speaking of a time beyond the existence of the Hundred, but rather a time when they do exist but are "baying at the gates" in hunger because the Inward is shut to them.  But there's no evidence they ever see such a time.

[Redeagl]

I don't see how those words are un-Kellhus like. Could easily be either or both of them speaking, to me.

So Kellhus needed Ajokli to get a leg up on the Consult to stop Resumption, great, but what was his endgame after that? Nigga you just struck a pact with the universe's Satan, the world is still open to the Gods, what're ya gonna do now? I don't get it.

I think he believed with sufficient mastery of the Daimos he could usurp Ajokli. He was very wrong.

Makes a bit more sense, but Kellhus trying to become a God in the Outside is very unlike him - he's supposed to be an AI, what does he care about power and desire? He arguably has no hunger to even act on. I get it's a way of avoiding damnation, but why not ally with the Consult and destroy them when they're no longer expedient?

Because Kellhus makes mistakes. It's what Bakker said. No Dûnyain attained the Absloute, and based on TGO, Koringhus was the nearest not Kellhus. Which means; Kellhus can be affected by emotions ( his love for Esmi) and Kellhus can make mistakes in the long run, he isn't the perfect AI. And the only way to overcome 5 Dûnyain is with 6 Dûnyain or more, which Kellhus didn't have.

[Baztek]

So Kellhus made a deal with Ajokli to keep the granary open by helping him get rid of the Consult, arguably the enemy mankind can see. Whole loooootta resources devoted to stopping the lesser evil, idgi.

[The Sharmat]

Makes a bit more sense, but Kellhus trying to become a God in the Outside is very unlike him - he's supposed to be an AI, what does he care about power and desire? He arguably has no hunger to even act on. I get it's a way of avoiding damnation, but why not ally with the Consult and destroy them when they're no longer expedient?

Kellhus isn't an AI though. That's the lie he told himself as a Dunyain. Moenghus recognized vestigial passions still ruled even a Dunyain. Kellhus did not until he went mad and told himself he was a prophet instead, which still put himself beyond such flaws.

Kellhus excels at the analytical aspects the Dunyain breed for but he is poor at self analysis and prone to breaking. He even very rarely experiences something almost akin to love or pity. Frankly, he's not a very good Dunyain.

[Monkhound]

I don't see how those words are un-Kellhus like. Could easily be either or both of them speaking, to me.

So Kellhus needed Ajokli to get a leg up on the Consult to stop Resumption, great, but what was his endgame after that? Nigga you just struck a pact with the universe's Satan, the world is still open to the Gods, what're ya gonna do now? I don't get it.

I think he believed with sufficient mastery of the Daimos he could usurp Ajokli. He was very wrong.

I'm not entirely sure whether it was a failure to control Ajokli. I wouldn't be surprised it was part of the deal as well: For all intents and purpose, Kellhus should have died in Caraskand and he knows that. I think that, just as Saubon (the Mengedda-Dagliash flash-forward/ -back), he got a 20 years lease on life because he managed to convince Ajokli to take the deal.

On the whole, I currently largely agree with SuJoroit. I'll add the Kellhus part of my post from the DEM thread as my two kellics again.

Concerning Kellhus's power:
We get multiple descriptions of Kellhus's Mark throughout TAE. I got the impression it got deeper and deeper, and more blasted throughout the series, based on the subtle difference in adjectives used in the PoV of other protagonists throughout the series. I've entertained for long the possibility that Kellhus was either having people (Zaudunyani) killed to become more powerful himself (souls basically being dinner) in the Outside, resulting in more powerful magic.
After TUC, I'm expecting him having to sacrifice the Ordeal as a whole, as damned and deceived as possible (remember the Meat), was the price for Ajokli's assistance (since there'd be more dinner for him). I'd even go as far as suggesting that the sacrifice of the whole "maxxed out damned" and deceived (!!) ordeal was a necessity for Ajokli to assist Kellhus, which is why we in my perception get the horrific passages of the Ordeal going bananas both in TGO and TUC.
[...]

I agree hints have ben given throughout TAE that Kellhus had mastered the Daimos. The whole head on a pole sequence, rumours throughout TJE from the "foreign" protagonists, and even through Malowebi in his first TUC PoV. We even know he's been to the Outside through the Head on a Pole passage in TGO. The fact that he's made a deal with one of the gods was, in my opinion, extremely probable.

Also the Head on a Pole is, I was supposing, the tether to the world of the living. Similar to the thread binding a Ciphrang to the world. Now that I type this post, I'm inclined to think it's the reminder to Kellhus that he's alive. Think about the explanation of the Wathi doll: The soul is both living and dead, both in the real world and in the Outside. As long as the soul is alive, it cannot be claimed by the Outside. At the same time, the soul is not alive either because the body is still technically alive.

[The Sharmat]

I still can't see its resemblance to the depiction of Onkis to be a coincidence but at the same time I have no idea what the significance would be.

[SuJuroit]

Kellhus isn't an AI though. That's the lie he told himself as a Dunyain. Moenghus recognized vestigial passions still ruled even a Dunyain. Kellhus did not until he went mad and told himself he was a prophet instead, which still put himself beyond such flaws.

Kellhus excels at the analytical aspects the Dunyain breed for but he is poor at self analysis and prone to breaking. He even very rarely experiences something almost akin to love or pity. Frankly, he's not a very good Dunyain.

Agreed.  What's interesting is that this emotion and passion appears to be increasing in subsequent generations of Anasurimbors.  Koringhus, although a towering prodigy among the Dunyain, shocks himself by going back for his infant son and taking on the immense burdens of feeding him, teaching him, hiding him, etc.  Crabicus, in turn, was actually defective, unable to "deny the interval between" himself and his father; "The boy clutches his tunic with both hands, hale and halved.  He cannot help himself.  He is defective."  The clear implication is that love, emotion, passion are enough to cause the Dunyain to consider one defective.

Compare all that with Moenghus the elder, who was a Dunyain's Dunyain.