[TUC Spoilers] The Seven Revelations of SuJuroit (Kellhus and Ajokli)

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Duskweaver

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« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2017, 10:11:05 pm »
Perhaps Kellhus ... was gradually suborned by Ajokli without his full knowledge or control.  Perhaps by the very end he was no more in control than Sorweel was in the moments before his death.  Just a puppet for who knows how long, right up until Ajokli took over in truth.
Which is exactly the sort of deliciously ironic punishment Ajokli-Who-Was-Cnaiur would have wished upon the one who had made a puppet of his soul twenty years before, surely?

I think it is worth remembering that Kayutas and Serwa seemed really worried about the prospect of Kellhus going into the Golden Room alone. It seemed to me like he'd warned them not to allow that to happen. Just a shame a dragon and 99 100 chorae got in the way. Yeah, we all assumed it was the possibility of the Consult subverting Kellhus that they were worried about, but maybe it was his possession by Ajokli that they were supposed to prevent?

Heck, if Mimara had gotten up there with a chorae, she could presumably have banished Ajokli like she did to the Wight of Cil-Aujas. Maybe that was a contingency in Kellhus' plan? But, again, circumstances got in the way: Mim went into labour early, which Kellhus could not have forseen (Yatwer's final gambit, maybe?)
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2017, 10:16:51 pm »
Did Kellhus have any inkling about the Judging Eye? Plus I doubt it would be a Yatwer gambit since Yatwer seemed to not want any of this going down.

MSJ

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« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2017, 11:29:56 pm »
Quote from:  The Sharmat
Did Kellhus have any inkling about the Judging Eye? Plus I doubt it would be a Yatwer gambit since Yatwer seemed to not want any of this going down.

From what we've learned post AMA/Q&A, id say he had absolutely no clue about the Judging Eye. IMHO.
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Duskweaver

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« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2017, 08:17:22 am »
Did Kellhus have any inkling about the Judging Eye?
He seems to have sent someone from the Ministrate to ensure Akka and Mim got aid from some scalpers and the Last Nonman King to go North... so I think it's at least a possibility. It seems pretty clear that Akka and Mim were intended to meet up with the Great Ordeal at some point for some reason. But then nothing really comes of that, so it ends up feeling like part of a plan that just didn't quite work out. I suppose it is possible Kellhus just wanted Akka on hand and that Mim's purpose was purely to goad the Wizard, but... that just doesn't feel very likely to me. I think she's there either as part of TTT or as a contingency if things went wrong (as they did), which implies that Kellhus knew there was something 'special' about her.

I notice some people seem to be assuming now that, since TTT so obviously and catastrophically fell apart in the Golden Room, that therefore Kellhus wasn't as smart as was previously thought and that most of what happened during TAE books was just happenstance and coincidence. As though Kellhus must be either an omniscient Mary Sue, or a hapless fool tossed about on the waves of circumstance, and nothing in between. But TTT could have unfolded 99.9% as Kellhus intended and still failed due to a couple of pieces not being in the right place at the right time.

Quote
Plus I doubt it would be a Yatwer gambit since Yatwer seemed to not want any of this going down.
You don't think frustrating Kellhus' plans by taking one of his pieces off the benjukka plate at a critical moment would be a thing Yatwer would go for?
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2017, 02:45:51 pm »
I think it is worth remembering that Kayutas and Serwa seemed really worried about the prospect of Kellhus going into the Golden Room alone. It seemed to me like he'd warned them not to allow that to happen. Just a shame a dragon and 99 100 chorae got in the way. Yeah, we all assumed it was the possibility of the Consult subverting Kellhus that they were worried about, but maybe it was his possession by Ajokli that they were supposed to prevent?

Could be.  I see it that Ajokli's foot-stop stopped anybody being able to get in from below (assuming Kelmomas had already got in, or somehow dodged all the falling debris). 
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« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2017, 01:10:23 pm »
The last sit down with the canon artifact that I had included The Last Whelming and Mimara and Kellhus do share a hard look where she's explicitly wishing that the Judging Eye would open. Kellhus dips out, with Kelmomas in tow, immediately thereafter.

Either Kellhus had a pre-Judgment moment like the Survivor when he qualifies Mimara as "mad" or Kellhus knows about the Judging Eye and didn't want Mimara to see him as Damned/Saved, despite all his efforts to remain ambiguous.

I'd have to get my copy but I'm on bed rest, supposed to keep my foot elevated; the line specifically goes something like "And Kellhus sees" (badly paraphrasing) and then translocates the fuck out of there.
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SuJuroit

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« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2017, 02:29:20 pm »
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I notice some people seem to be assuming now that, since TTT so obviously and catastrophically fell apart in the Golden Room, that therefore Kellhus wasn't as smart as was previously thought and that most of what happened during TAE books was just happenstance and coincidence. As though Kellhus must be either an omniscient Mary Sue, or a hapless fool tossed about on the waves of circumstance, and nothing in between. But TTT could have unfolded 99.9% as Kellhus intended and still failed due to a couple of pieces not being in the right place at the right time.

This is pretty much my take on things.  Based on the Decapitants glossary entry, I believe that Kellhus was aware of the risk of Ajokli attempting to manifest, but was either convinced he could control it or that it simply didn't matter that much since the last thing Ajokli wanted was for Resumption to occur.  He was obviously wrong about the former, but he was right about the latter point.  Not realizing Kelmomas was the No-God was the 0.1% he whiffed on.


The Sharmat

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« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2017, 07:13:14 pm »
What good is preventing resumption if the world becomes Hell?

EdwardReynolds

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« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2017, 06:17:15 am »
...you just struck a pact with the universe's Satan, the world is still open to the Gods, what're ya gonna do now? I don't get it.

I see Ajokli as akin to the gods Loki (viking) or Hades (greek), they aren't at all evil.
They are often the heels of whatever story they are in, but not always. Ajokli is called the trickster, basically the same think Loki is called. Hades is the master of 'Hell' (underworld), more specifically just the place the dead go. Its not all torture and fire in the Greek afterlife. Even heroes/good people end up in Hades domain, that part of his domain is just called Elysium (heaven).

Ajokli is more complicated and not at all constrained to being the simple big bad, and remembering any of the gods actions are predicated on seeing the things happening *around* the things they cant see.
Brutal and over powering, yes, evil, no.

Woden

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« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2017, 08:57:55 am »
Quote from:  The Sharmat
Did Kellhus have any inkling about the Judging Eye? Plus I doubt it would be a Yatwer gambit since Yatwer seemed to not want any of this going down.

From what we've learned post AMA/Q&A, id say he had absolutely no clue about the Judging Eye. IMHO.

Why Akka didn't tell him about the JE is a fucking mistery for me.
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EdwardReynolds

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« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2017, 09:02:13 am »
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Why Akka didn't tell him about the JE is a fucking mistery for me.

Or why no one even brought up the Sclyvendi sitting right over the hill.

Woden

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« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2017, 09:03:28 am »
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Why Akka didn't tell him about the JE is a fucking mistery for me.

Or why no one even brought up the Sclyvendi sitting right over the hill.

Fuck yes.
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EdwardReynolds

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« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2017, 09:40:18 am »
I know they munched all the horses up but there are no scouts at all anywhere?

The horde is supposedly goneski, why there arent masses of scouts all over the place around the ordeal blows my mind. If something is killing/dissapearing your scouts in X direction, something is up. Given the short duration the Ordeal is at the Horns im not even sure where the Horde 2.0 came from, given the massive blinding dust cloud a horde generates.

Woden

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« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2017, 10:04:41 am »
Yes, that blows my mind.
I expected more of a Dûnyain general.
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Cynical Cat

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« Reply #44 on: August 08, 2017, 10:17:41 am »
There were scouts, the Scylvendi took them out.