The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Cynical Cat on September 19, 2017, 07:23:54 am
-
[EDIT Madness: I'm splitting the thread because Speculiction's TUC review followup (http://speculiction.blogspot.ca/2017/09/what-comes-next-questions-potential.html) spawned so much conversation. Continue :)!]
It's interesting and terribly flawed. He says the Three Seas' manpower is depleted and that's incorrect. The Anasurimbor Regime's manpower is massively depleted. There's plenty of manpower left behind in the Three Seas, especially in Zeum. That's not to downplay the loss of most of the Anasurimbor's reliable troops and leaders, but that still leaves behind most of the male population of the Three Seas. The loss of so many Chorae and Schoolmen is more severe. For comparison sake, a well regarded estimate of the population of the Roman Empire at 14 CE is 45,000,000. It's the totality of losses among the most capable opponents of Mog-Pheru, not the numbers in of themselves, that is devastating.
-
Exactly - the book says population of 75 million, the Ordeal was 300,000 at start - leaving an enormous number of men left to ... to die at the hands of the No-God
-
Exactly - the book says population of 75 million, the Ordeal was 300,000 at start - leaving an enormous number of men left to ... to die at the hands of the No-God
When is 75 million given, if you don't mind me asking? Was actually looking around per this discussion.
-
Exactly - the book says population of 75 million, the Ordeal was 300,000 at start - leaving an enormous number of men left to ... to die at the hands of the No-God
When is 75 million given, if you don't mind me asking? Was actually looking around per this discussion.
Aw, fudge - thought it was in the beginning of TUC, but can't find it. Hope I'm not remembering something not "official", like the intro to a review or something. I'll try to hunt it down. Maybe saw it in an advertisement for the book/series.
-
Exactly - the book says population of 75 million, the Ordeal was 300,000 at start - leaving an enormous number of men left to ... to die at the hands of the No-God
When is 75 million given, if you don't mind me asking? Was actually looking around per this discussion.
Aw, fudge - thought it was in the beginning of TUC, but can't find it. Hope I'm not remembering something not "official", like the intro to a review or something. I'll try to hunt it down. Maybe saw it in an advertisement for the book/series.
It's a huge number regardless. And that's just Earwa. What about Eanna, the continent to the south, who know if people lie across the great ocean. Remember, Bakker said that the edges of his maps will never be filled in. Earwa is just a continent on this world, and maybe not even that. And we know magic works in Eanna, and the whole of this world relates to the Outside in the same manner. Maybe, what killed the NG the first time was simply the time limit. It couldn't kill enough souls in the matter of time it has.
-
Eh, that would seem kind of boring and against the tone as well. 'It wasn't the Heron Spear, the No-God just ran out of time. The world can never end because it's too big.' I think the idea of the time limit is just so that there isn't an excuse in the narrative for the No-God to just turtle in Golgotteroth forever, which would be a pretty unbeatable strategy at this point.
The reason I'm curious what the actual number is because the Great Ordeal seemed to constantly stress how it was the biggest gathering of martial men since even far antiquity or something. How the entire empire had formed the military mass of the Three Seas. It'd be a bit silly to me if there are still significant numbers of military hosts out there.
Now, don't get me wrong. Clearly there are some. The Fanim had enough to wage war still. Zeum has some amount of troops. The Empire still had some. But idk, seems like they'd be in a pretty bad position.
-
Speculiction did a second review/addendum/piece (http://speculiction.blogspot.ca/2017/09/what-comes-next-questions-potential.html) on TUC!
This parallels exactly the conversation me and Wilshire had. I think up to the TNG was this story Bakker created as a teen and honed during his writing process. But, I believe as the reviewer does, that ultimately Bakker has faith in humanity. And that TNG will be his lesson that humanity doesn't need God's and heroes and such. We just need each other. I know it won't be some sappy B.S., thats not Bakker either. But, I do agree that he will show that humanity will prevail. And, to borrow a line from that review, "Why just drive the nail deeper in the coffin?". It makes no sense for that to be the case, TUC would've been enough.
-
Eh, that would seem kind of boring and against the tone as well. 'It wasn't the Heron Spear, the No-God just ran out of time. The world can never end because it's too big.' I think the idea of the time limit is just so that there isn't an excuse in the narrative for the No-God to just turtle in Golgotteroth forever, which would be a pretty unbeatable strategy at this point.
But, do you agree that Akka's dreams show the truth of what happened during the 1st apocalypse? I do, and I think it's made clear by textual evidence. And Akka has a dream where the Heron Spear doesn't kill TNG. And, I don't think it did. I like it better if it didn't too. I'm hoping that it was killed a la' Mimara, a answering his questions and somehow "undoing" him. I agree, running out of time does seem lame, but it's definitely an option. And, regardless, your reason for wanting to know the numbers, you still have to take into account these other land masses, which we have proof of sorcery working there, hence connected to the Outside. You have to take all that into consideration.
-
Eh, that would seem kind of boring and against the tone as well. 'It wasn't the Heron Spear, the No-God just ran out of time. The world can never end because it's too big.' I think the idea of the time limit is just so that there isn't an excuse in the narrative for the No-God to just turtle in Golgotteroth forever, which would be a pretty unbeatable strategy at this point.
But, do you agree that Akka's dreams show the truth of what happened during the 1st apocalypse? I do, and I think it's made clear by textual evidence. And Akka has a dream where the Heron Spear doesn't kill TNG. And, I don't think it did. I like it better if it didn't too. I'm hoping that it was killed a la' Mimara, a answering his questions and somehow "undoing" him. I agree, running out of time does seem lame, but it's definitely an option. And, regardless, your reason for wanting to know the numbers, you still have to take into account these other land masses, which we have proof of sorcery working there, hence connected to the Outside. You have to take all that into consideration.
I think Akka's dreams raise a lot of questions, but no, I'm not necessarily in agreement that what he saw was the true sequence of events. I'll say it is possible. And it is possible something else resulted in the No-God's death as well. But I don't think there is enough to give it a lot of weight yet. If something else does come into play, so be it. But the time limit would be the most boring to me.
As for other land masses, their existence is largely moot, besides Eanna, which will probably play some role given Bakker's words about it. That said, we hardly know what role that is. For all we know, they discover the rest of the world died by Consult machinations.
But either way, they only matter in-so-far as Bakker will make them matter. I really don't think (in the same vein as the time limit) the existence of other land masses is something that will come up as a big problem for the No-God because their purpose is more 'there is other stuff out there'. Not as a roadblock for what happens next. If all these other people rallied from different continents, kind of hurts it even being the Apocalypse if there is still such manpower to oppose it. That's just my take on it.
I feel like someone asked if the No-God was felt on other continent's/had an effect (death of birth), but I can't for the life of me recall if that was an actual answered question...
-
But I don't think there is enough to give it a lot of weight yet.
This is my take also.
-
But I don't think there is enough to give it a lot of weight yet.
This is my take also.
How not? He dreams of where the map will be in the Library of Sauglish, about Celmommas making Ishual, about Nayu being betrayed by his wife, Nayu being a blooded, tormented, toothless wretch, dragged under the IF and put into the Carapace, just like Kellhus is told. You have the Celmommian prophecy through the eyes of Celmommas his self and see how its mistranslated. Everything his new dreams are true and we have textual evidence for nearly all of it. So why would this one dream not be true, and why isn't that not enough evidence? Because, fellows, we don't get straight up yes or no's in this series. You have to figure it out, put the pieces together. Akka's dreams being true is the easily the most verifiable.
-
Eh, that would seem kind of boring and against the tone as well. 'It wasn't the Heron Spear, the No-God just ran out of time. The world can never end because it's too big.' I think the idea of the time limit is just so that there isn't an excuse in the narrative for the No-God to just turtle in Golgotteroth forever, which would be a pretty unbeatable strategy at this point.
The reason I'm curious what the actual number is because the Great Ordeal seemed to constantly stress how it was the biggest gathering of martial men since even far antiquity or something. How the entire empire had formed the military mass of the Three Seas. It'd be a bit silly to me if there are still significant numbers of military hosts out there.
Now, don't get me wrong. Clearly there are some. The Fanim had enough to wage war still. Zeum has some amount of troops. The Empire still had some. But idk, seems like they'd be in a pretty bad position.
It's important to distinguish between whether or not the losses are devastating (which they are) and whether or not they deplete the manpower of an Empire. In normal circumstances, only a small portion of a state's population directly serves in the military. The best estimate of the giant army that the Persian Empire sent to invade Greece is somewhere around 200,000 men. 300,000 is a credible number for the largest number in Earwa's history, but it's loss is only a small percentage of the Anasurimbor Empire's manpower. It used to be a structure imposed on a population that was in no small part composed of Fanim and Orthodox convinced to submit at the point of a sword. That's why it started to fall apart when its military and sorcerous elite departed. The remaining forces weren't strong enough to repress the dissent.
While the loss of so many experienced soldiers, leaders, and Schoolmen is devastating to the state's ability to wage war, the situation has changed. The No-God's presence can be felt by all and while unity is not guaranteed, Mog-Pheru is as much as a goad as the Inverse Fire. The war that comes will be a total war of survival, where every able bodied person is helping whether by growing food, treating the wounded, building defenses, or bearing arms. There are still are the soldiers who remain in the Anasurimbor Empire, Zeum's full might, and whatever else might come from outside. The Orthodox faithful and the Fanim survivors who would never draw weapons for the Anasurimbor will take up arms against the No-God. The Schools have been reduced to old men and boys (or old women and girls), with the notable exception of Zeum's. We don't know how many, if any, escape the slaughter of the Great Ordeal, but a disproportionate number of survivors are likely to be Schoolmen. The Nonmen Quya, who are all survivors of multiple disasters at Golgotterath, might have mostly survived. Of course, we also know that while men believe the Wracu have diminished in numbers we also know that they tend to avoid men and the battle of Sauglish revealed that young Wracu were there so they can breed. There might be a dragon horde waiting in the far mountains.
As for the No-God being on the clock, it makes narrative sense (no turtling in the super fortress) as well as logical sense. A crucial component is biological and nature and whatever the Sarcophagus does to those entombed it doesn't sound like it's good for the subject's long term health.
-
You have the Celmommian prophecy through the eyes of Celmommas his self and see how its mistranslated.
A slight tangent, but this would be helpful for some speculation I've had that's been nagging at me. But I can't find this passage. Could you point me to it, please?
-
Akka's dreams being true is the easily the most verifiable.
The simple answer would be, not even close. Being more elaborate, I can propose several reasons.
Let's take one thing into consideration before everything else. Achamian watches the same events happening differently depending on which dream he sees them in. This alone puts the credibility of his dreams into question. But there is more. He sees things he shouldn't see by definition, considering the nature of Seswatha's Dreams as it's explained by the Mandate. He should see events from Seswatha's perspective, since it's Seswatha's heart he was holding in the Grasping. Yet he now sees things through the eyes of Celmomas and Nau-Cayuti. Why? There is no explanation.
Nayu being a blooded, tormented, toothless wretch, dragged under the IF and put into the Carapace, just like Kellhus is told.
Achamian doesn't see Nau-Cayuti being put into the Carapace. He sees him in the line for it. The Mutilated later confirm that Nau-Cayuti was the first Insertant, but that's it. There is nothing more said about it, no mention of torture that would corroborate Achamian's dream.
You have the Celmommian prophecy through the eyes of Celmommas his self and see how its mistranslated.
This is easily the least credible of Achamian's dreams since it brings no new information, only raising additional questions. It doesn't narrow anything down, it opens the way for so many interpretations the whole exercise becomes counterproductive instantly.
Everything his new dreams are true and we have textual evidence for nearly all of it.
All of those things except the map to Ishual are either conjectures that could've easily been made by the characters without his dreams or just wild inconsistencies that contradict previously mentioned or recorded Seswatha's dreams and historic facts. The map to Ishual, for example, doesn't contradict anything, so I don't see how it can be viewed in the same light as the dreams that do.
You have to figure it out, put the pieces together.
This is why I'm loath to jump to convenient conclusions. Achamian's dreams being strictly true is exactly this kind of neatly bow-tied resolution that the books themselves warn us against.
-
Eh, that would seem kind of boring and against the tone as well. 'It wasn't the Heron Spear, the No-God just ran out of time. The world can never end because it's too big.' I think the idea of the time limit is just so that there isn't an excuse in the narrative for the No-God to just turtle in Golgotteroth forever, which would be a pretty unbeatable strategy at this point.
The reason I'm curious what the actual number is because the Great Ordeal seemed to constantly stress how it was the biggest gathering of martial men since even far antiquity or something. How the entire empire had formed the military mass of the Three Seas. It'd be a bit silly to me if there are still significant numbers of military hosts out there.
Now, don't get me wrong. Clearly there are some. The Fanim had enough to wage war still. Zeum has some amount of troops. The Empire still had some. But idk, seems like they'd be in a pretty bad position.
It's important to distinguish between whether or not the losses are devastating (which they are) and whether or not they deplete the manpower of an Empire. In normal circumstances, only a small portion of a state's population directly serves in the military. The best estimate of the giant army that the Persian Empire sent to invade Greece is somewhere around 200,000 men. 300,000 is a credible number for the largest number in Earwa's history, but it's loss is only a small percentage of the Anasurimbor Empire's manpower. It used to be a structure imposed on a population that was in no small part composed of Fanim and Orthodox convinced to submit at the point of a sword. That's why it started to fall apart when its military and sorcerous elite departed. The remaining forces weren't strong enough to repress the dissent.
While the loss of so many experienced soldiers, leaders, and Schoolmen is devastating to the state's ability to wage war, the situation has changed. The No-God's presence can be felt by all and while unity is not guaranteed, Mog-Pheru is as much as a goad as the Inverse Fire. The war that comes will be a total war of survival, where every able bodied person is helping whether by growing food, treating the wounded, building defenses, or bearing arms. There are still are the soldiers who remain in the Anasurimbor Empire, Zeum's full might, and whatever else might come from outside. The Orthodox faithful and the Fanim survivors who would never draw weapons for the Anasurimbor will take up arms against the No-God. The Schools have been reduced to old men and boys (or old women and girls), with the notable exception of Zeum's. We don't know how many, if any, escape the slaughter of the Great Ordeal, but a disproportionate number of survivors are likely to be Schoolmen. The Nonmen Quya, who are all survivors of multiple disasters at Golgotterath, might have mostly survived. Of course, we also know that while men believe the Wracu have diminished in numbers we also know that they tend to avoid men and the battle of Sauglish revealed that young Wracu were there so they can breed. There might be a dragon horde waiting in the far mountains.
As for the No-God being on the clock, it makes narrative sense (no turtling in the super fortress) as well as logical sense. A crucial component is biological and nature and whatever the Sarcophagus does to those entombed it doesn't sound like it's good for the subject's long term health.
Do we actually have any numbers on the remaining population and how many are combat trained? Otherwise, I'm really not buying into the comparison. And I'm just not seeing the No-God's presence as enough for some, all things considered. This is a land that was already fomenting with revolt, both from the slaves whose gods are blind and the high ups who were not a fan of being yolked. The Fanim waged war and Momen was struck by an earthquake. Now we're adding in likely knowledge that the Aspect-Emperor was killed, significant nobles/leadership (Zeum's leader might still be killed as well), and sorcerers. Men, being fallible as they are, are as likely to fail to come together to take the action necessary. There is a reason the first Apocalypse was that, nearly the end of the world. Things just seem a lot worse for the world than that era.
@MSJ - I just don't think we know nearly enough. We have no clue why his dreams might have changed. And from what I recall (I don't have TTT), the missing dream was both explicitly different than his typical recollection (could be off, not sure), was after a fever, and the rest of his dreams didn't really change for another 20 years. And if other dreams have shown the spear work and all reports of the event cooperate, I think this specific fact could be an exception.
-
No, we don't have numbers. That's why I brought up the numbers of the Roman Empire, a comparably large polity for which we do have numbers. Plenty won't be combat trained but basic proficiency with weapons doesn't take that long and they have incentive. The Sranc hordes are far away and it's close to winter. It's going to take a while for the No-God to arrive at the Three Seas. As for unity, of course it won't be perfect but the No-God's presence which everyone can feel and the accompanying still births is going to be transformative.
-
Achamian doesn't see Nau-Cayuti being put into the Carapace. He sees him in the line for it. The Mutilated later confirm that Nau-Cayuti was the first Insertant, but that's it. There is nothing more said about it, no mention of torture that would corroborate Achamian's dream.
TGO. Very last entry of the book is one of Akka's dreams. Nayu is led under the IF and it ends with him standing in front of the Carapace. Bakker doesn't get any clearer than that.
This is easily the least credible of Achamian's dreams since it brings no new information, only raising additional questions. It doesn't narrow anything down, it opens the way for so many interpretations the whole exercise becomes counterproductive instantly.
It shows us specifically Kellhus and say he is the end of the world. Yes interpretative. But, he played a part in the rise of the No-God.
All of those things except the map to Ishual are either conjectures that could've easily been made by the characters without his dreams or just wild inconsistencies that contradict previously mentioned or recorded Seswatha's dreams and historic facts. The map to Ishual, for example, doesn't contradict anything, so I don't see how it can be viewed in the same light as the dreams that do.
But, it's not any historical dream or that any other Mandate has dreamed. Its not a usual dream. You can't compare to one. Its Akka's new dreams and whether you find it convienent to clarify these things in the text, imo, is your way of hand waving the proof away. Kellhus wanted to know about the dreams, he didn't do it and Akka denied him and Sacarress out of spite. Yes it's the only neatly tied bow in the whole series, with textual evidence and confirmation to back it up. What more do you want?
-
@MSJ - I just don't think we know nearly enough. We have no clue why his dreams might have changed. And from what I recall (I don't have TTT), the missing dream was both explicitly different than his typical recollection (could be off, not sure), was after a fever, and the rest of his dreams didn't really change for another 20 years. And if other dreams have shown the spear work and all reports of the event cooperate, I think this specific fact could be an exception.
I have proposed that Akka's first dream seeing S in the mirror not his self is a subtle hint that he was changing from the beginning. With Bakker say what comes after determines what comes before, its a whole lot more likely that that is the correct interpretation. But, conceding that. This dream happens right after he makes love to Esme, the start of his repudiation of Kellhus. By this time, he has already made this choice. It happens after he fight the Ciphrang and is healed by the sea by Fanim and then goes directly and repudiated Kellhus and becomes the only wizard in the Three Seas. It could be said that dream is what made him start documenting his dreams, because of the huge difference and it's significance. And, his dreams didn't just start changing 20 years later and we know this through dialogue with Mimara in TJE. I'm sorry, that dream holds a lot of weight thematically on its own.
ETA- quoted wrong person. Sorry.
Etaa- and please go look at this dream Akka is saying over and over again how wrong it was. Its telling.
-
You have the Celmommian prophecy through the eyes of Celmommas his self and see how its mistranslated.
A slight tangent, but this would be helpful for some speculation I've had that's been nagging at me. But I can't find this passage. Could you point me to it, please?
TGO chapter 8, second Ishual chapter, starts off the chapter.
-
It's interesting and terribly flawed. He says the Three Seas' manpower is depleted and that's incorrect. The Anasurimbor Regime's manpower is massively depleted. There's plenty of manpower left behind in the Three Seas, especially in Zeum. That's not to downplay the loss of most of the Anasurimbor's reliable troops and leaders, but that still leaves behind most of the male population of the Three Seas. The loss of so many Chorae and Schoolmen is more severe. For comparison sake, a well regarded estimate of the population of the Roman Empire at 14 CE is 45,000,000. It's the totality of losses among the most capable opponents of Mog-Pheru, not the numbers in of themselves, that is devastating.
I actually e-mailed Speculiction a follow up follow up if he posts anything about it. I don't believe he pays attention to the online fandom.
Also, you (as a contemporary of the initial conversations) and others in this thread are channeling some old Three-Seas Q&A. I find it really amazing that Bakker was talking about things he had planned for TNG as far back as then.
All told, I would say the population of the Three Seas would hover around 75 million - just somewhat larger than that of the Roman Empire circa 300CE. Since Zeum has a big role to play in the future books, I'll take a pass on answering that one
Like I say, I want Zeum to be a mystery, to be a 'pregnant unknown' similar to 'Cathay' for the Persians or the Romans. As for the population, don't forget that this number includes Nilnamesh, which is very densely populated.
With regards to your questions: yes, both Zeum and Eanna are inhabited, and both have roles to play in the darkness that comes after (forgive me - I couldn't resist!) - Zeum moreso.
Now, don't get me wrong. Clearly there are some. The Fanim had enough to wage war still. Zeum has some amount of troops. The Empire still had some. But idk, seems like they'd be in a pretty bad position.
Earwa seems kind of SOL ;).
And I'm just not seeing the No-God's presence as enough for some, all things considered.
Hmm... I'm fairly sure every baby stillborn and people all feeling the Boding will unify humanity given time - if they have that.
Now we're adding in likely knowledge that the Aspect-Emperor was killed, significant nobles/leadership (Zeum's leader might still be killed as well), and sorcerers.
I suppose Earwa would assume that the Ordeal is lost, including Kellhus - though, of course, the retreating Ordeal probably assumes that Kellhus is the No-God, given the Tekne-Glamour at the end of TUC.
-
TGO. Very last entry of the book is one of Akka's dreams. Nayu is led under the IF and it ends with him standing in front of the Carapace. Bakker doesn't get any clearer than that.
This is the scene I was talking about, and it doesn't show the event itself. I did read it as him being put into the Carapace, of course, but my point is, it wasn't shown. I would've been interested in the perspective of an Insertant at the moment of Insertion, however unreliable it may be.
It shows us specifically Kellhus and say he is the end of the world. Yes interpretative. But, he played a part in the rise of the No-God.
I'm completely unsure even about it being Kellhus shown. Without further clarification (or at least corroboration) that whole dream just seems counterproductive to draw conclusions from. I can base hundreds of plausible theories on it, not just one. But the fact remains, the dream doesn't give any evidence, it contradicts the existing body of it.
But, it's not any historical dream or that any other Mandate has dreamed. Its not a usual dream.
We don't know that. The origin of Celmomian prophecy as it's recorded in history is unknown. We also have no idea what Seswatha's Dreams actually are.
whether you find it convienent to clarify these things in the text, imo, is your way of hand waving the proof away.
This works both ways. I don't see any proof, I see something unknown and unexplained with unclear agenda at play here. You have a theory about it, and theories are good, but it's only one theory where hundreds of the same level of plausibility can be offered. Why only focus on this one? I don't offer other theories only because I consider them pure speculation, without a shred of hard evidence behind it, so I can't prove anything, and thus there are no grounds for discussion.
Kellhus wanted to know about the dreams, he didn't do it and Akka denied him and Sacarress out of spite. Yes it's the only neatly tied bow in the whole series, with textual evidence and confirmation to back it up. What more do you want?
Kellhus's perspective on metaphysics, more information about Seswatha's Dreams, and other accounts of said dreams (even normal ones) would be a good start.
Right now it's an unknown of Ajokli's level of importance. And it's quite specifically not elaborated upon in the narrative, just as Ajokli was.
-
@MSJ - I just don't think we know nearly enough. We have no clue why his dreams might have changed. And from what I recall (I don't have TTT), the missing dream was both explicitly different than his typical recollection (could be off, not sure), was after a fever, and the rest of his dreams didn't really change for another 20 years. And if other dreams have shown the spear work and all reports of the event cooperate, I think this specific fact could be an exception.
I have proposed that Akka's first dream seeing S in the mirror not his self is a subtle hint that he was changing from the beginning. With Bakker say what comes after determines what comes before, its a whole lot more likely that that is the correct interpretation. But, conceding that. This dream happens right after he makes love to Esme, the start of his repudiation of Kellhus. By this time, he has already made this choice. It happens after he fight the Ciphrang and is healed by the sea by Fanim and then goes directly and repudiated Kellhus and becomes the only wizard in the Three Seas. It could be said that dream is what made him start documenting his dreams, because of the huge difference and it's significance. And, his dreams didn't just start changing 20 years later and we know this through dialogue with Mimara in TJE. I'm sorry, that dream holds a lot of weight thematically on its own.
ETA- quoted wrong person. Sorry.
Etaa- and please go look at this dream Akka is saying over and over again how wrong it was. Its telling.
Sorry, when I noted 'didn't really change for 20 years', I more meant, it was very subtle things for a long time. I mean, he never saw the map for Ishual until much, much later. Or the conception of Nau-Cayuti (I believe). But I thought he noted he wasn't sure when his dreams started changing (from his personal perspective), that he only took note some time after the toe stubbing part that the mundane things came out more, and how there were entire books about minor differences (if not mudane aspects as his are clearly special).
Either way, his dreams can't all be right if he thought the Heron Spear missing was 'wrong'. And taking into the historical significance, I still think we don't know nearly enough about how his Dreams are working, how they are special, to say what is what. I'm willing to give all of them a fair bit of credit besides the one where the Heron Spear missed, given the timeline of things.
I'd argue the Celmomas one is very questionable too, but mostly because of how unique it is.
-
I'm completely unsure even about it being Kellhus shown. Without further clarification (or at least corroboration) that whole dream just seems counterproductive to draw conclusions from. I can base hundreds of plausible theories on it, not just one. But the fact remains, the dream doesn't give any evidence, it contradicts the existing body of it.
Lol, bro, I love a good argument as much as the next guy. But, this here is how I know your unwilling to accept any evidence I've shown, that we know Akka's dreams are different from other Mandate sorcerers(again Mimara convo at the tower, TJE) and your just simply refusing to accept confirmination of those dreams.
Dude, who else in the series where's a sword on his back and has two Ciphrang hanging from his belt? Who? Pray tell me there is another guy. I'd love to know why you don't believe that's Kellhus being shown to Akka through Celmommas's POV.
-
Either way, his dreams can't all be right if he thought the Heron Spear missing was 'wrong'. And taking into the historical significance, I still think we don't know nearly enough about how his Dreams are working, how they are special, to say what is what. I'm willing to give all of them a fair bit of credit besides the one where the Heron Spear missed, given the timeline of things.
Who said he thinks the Heron Spear is missing is wrong? He never says that and the dream doesn't imply that. That's why I asked you to go back and read it. Sure, I'm not saying the Her lon Spear doesn't exist, that dream ends with the King not using it and the chariot their in being toppled over. And the whole dream Akka is commenting on how wrong the whole dream is. How different it is. Look I can lead a horse(s) to water, but I can't make them drink. Between, you and Smiler I've offered more textual proof for than you guys have against. In fact, you offered no textual evidence I'm wrong. So what's worth more here, textual evidence or what you want to be true? Or, you just don't like MSJ and wanna argue? ;)
-
This works both ways. I don't see any proof, I see something unknown and unexplained with unclear agenda at play here. You have a theory about it, and theories are good, but it's only one theory where hundreds of the same level of plausibility can be offered. Why only focus on this one? I don't offer other theories only because I consider them pure speculation, without a shred of hard evidence behind it, so I can't prove anything, and thus there are no grounds for discussion.
No, it's not the same and not a theory I am proposing. I have offered you the dreams he had and how those dreams proved to be true. The only one that can be thought of as interpretative is the Celmommas dream. He has a dream about where the map is , Sauglish....he finds the map at Sauglish. He has a dream about a hidden redoubt built by Cell called Ishual, he finds Ishual. He dreams of Nayu being taken and Shaw telling him he will never leave and never feel such degradation and so on. Guess what? Nayu is that toothless wretch that shows us the IF (confirmed in TUC) and Nayu being led to the Carapace again confirmed in TUC. Now, this is all textual evidence, stuff he dreams that turns out to be true. He is being led...by someone. You have have me your opinion, you haven't have textual evidence to refute that this isn't what happened.
-
Lol, bro, I love a good argument as much as the next guy. But, this here is how I know your unwilling to accept any evidence I've shown, that we know Akka's dreams are different from other Mandate sorcerers(again Mimara convo at the tower, TJE) and your just simply refusing to accept confirmination of those dreams.
Dude, who else in the series where's a sword on his back and has two Ciphrang hanging from his belt? Who? Pray tell me there is another guy. I'd love to know why you don't believe that's Kellhus being shown to Akka through Celmommas's POV.
I feel you misunderstand me. I don't invalidate your textual evidence, it's most certainly there. What I am noting is the fact that there are textual contradictions to the evidence you're putting forward. The text itself provides counterpoints to your theory, and so the evidence you are basing it on is not enough. It's different when there is no textual counterpoints, when evidence is undisputed by the text itself, but this is not the case here.
About that being Kellhus in the dream about Celmomas, I agree, the description fits. But what if it's some future event that we're unaware of, when someone is posing as Kellhus or repeated his achievements? And that's just 2 of many possibilities that bother me here.
It might be I'm grossly overthinking it, and the simple explanation is the right one. It might be you are not thinking enough about it and so falling into the trap of convenience. Which is it? There is no way to tell, and that's exactly my point about Achamian's new dreams and their credibility.
-
Nayu is that toothless wretch that shows us the IF (confirmed in TUC)
Sorry, but not even close to that neatly. Only the facts of him being shown the Inverse Fire and put into the Carapace are confirmed. The exact nature of those events as they are put forward in the dreams is not confirmed. We have only the dream itself to speak for it.
Also, I should note, that this dream, again, doesn't contradict history, at least the Mandate version of it. They were always postulating that Nay-Cayuti was betrayed by his wife and taken to Golgotterath, as far as I remember.
-
Either way, his dreams can't all be right if he thought the Heron Spear missing was 'wrong'. And taking into the historical significance, I still think we don't know nearly enough about how his Dreams are working, how they are special, to say what is what. I'm willing to give all of them a fair bit of credit besides the one where the Heron Spear missed, given the timeline of things.
Who said he thinks the Heron Spear is missing is wrong? He never says that and the dream doesn't imply that. That's why I asked you to go back and read it. Sure, I'm not saying the Her lon Spear doesn't exist, that dream ends with the King not using it and the chariot their in being toppled over. And the whole dream Akka is commenting on how wrong the whole dream is. How different it is.
As I noted, I don't own TTT for review. But the way I took it when I read it, he kept saying it was wrong because it didn't happen that way, typically. Unless you can give me the specific language of the scene again.
Look I can lead a horse(s) to water, but I can't make them drink. Between, you and Smiler I've offered more textual proof for than you guys have against. In fact, you offered no textual evidence I'm wrong. So what's worth more here, textual evidence or what you want to be true? Or, you just don't like MSJ and wanna argue? ;)
I already offered the fact that several areas of the text, but I'll re-iterate.
- Several areas (glossaries and What Came Before) that note Anaxophus defeated the NoGod with the Heron Spear.
- The fact that Akka acknowledged the sometimes fickle nature of the dreams in The Judging Eye ("If this were Atyersus, I could show you whole tomes cataloguing the various ways in which the Dreams misfire: the conversations, substitutions, alterations, corruptions, and on and on.")
- None of the other dreams contradict prior know facts and how his comments on the 'wrongness' of the one dream.
Further, Smiler and I are at different positions. I only really question two of the dreams whereas he seems uncertain about all of them. For the record.
I want to make note (and I thought this before reading this post), this really comes off unnecessarily hostile, smiley face or no. I enjoy these kind of conversations, but it isn't important enough to continue if you feel the need to throw in personal attacks. Calling my motives or claiming the point is obvious doesn't move things much. I only note it because that kind of thing really bothers me and the only retort I can give is, 'no, this is what I think.'
-
Further, Smiler and I are at different positions. I only really question two of the dreams whereas he seems uncertain about all of them. For the record.
True, but I am willing to accept the dreams as evidence when they are corroborated by the whole of Mandate across centuries, though I am still very curious about the metaphysics of Seswatha's Dreams and think that a game is afoot there.
What I am unwilling to take as evidence in itself is dreams that contradict those shared by the Mandate, especially when they come - or at least should come - from the same source.
-
Ive never named a source. And, what would it matter if it is Seswatha? He chooses Akka as his the one to lead the 2nd apocalypse. But, the more we've found out the less likely I believe that to be true.
But, Akka admits shares this info with Mimara that these dreams are not like that of the Mandate over the centuries. What I take from this is the "Mandate" dreams are a goad the same as the IF. To keep the Mandate vigilant for the coming of the 2nd Apocalypse. Akka's are entirely different and explains all of this, and they turn out to be true, verifiable within the text. I don't know if your just not understanding me correctly or what.
@Sausuna, oh ho ho, we know that the what comes before and the glossaries have untruths in them definitely, per Bakker. That this is how history was recorded, with mistakes and personal opinions and not facts all the time.
Anyhow, SL and Sausuna we are at an impasse as they say. And, that's fine. Its ok, we don't believe the same thing. I was just trying to persuade you actual evidence from the books is all. No, biggie.
-
As I noted, I don't own TTT for review. But the way I took it when I read it, he kept saying it was wrong because it didn't happen that way, typically. Unless you can give me the specific language of the scene again.
Sorry, sir. I won't ignore an honest question. He says just that that this isn't how it happens, it's different and so on. Here's where me and you are not in agreement. You think it as proof as to the untruth of the dream. I take as proof to the truth of the dream, that this is one of Akka's new dreams, ones that Akka only gets. Its just not til a while later he realizes how.much his dreams has changed. As I said before, I think his first dream from TCTCB, where he says, "My face in the mirror, not S." is a subtle hint that his dreams are changing as the world around him is beginning to change, he just doesn't even have a clue at this point. He doesn't even know about the SS's yet. Chalks it up to another of the slight differences in the dreams.
-
But, Akka admits shares this info with Mimara that these dreams are not like that of the Mandate over the centuries. What I take from this is the "Mandate" dreams are a goad the same as the IF. To keep the Mandate vigilant for the coming of the 2nd Apocalypse. Akka's are entirely different and explains all of this, and they turn out to be true, verifiable within the text. I don't know if your just not understanding me correctly or what.
You understand that this is just speculation at this point, correct? It's not stated in the books, it's what you take from Achamian saying that his dreams are different, which may or may not be true, since Achamian doesn't know everything, and here the most we can hope for is his educated opinion on the matter. By itself it is not textual evidence that his dreams are actually unprecedented, it's evidence that he thinks so. Also, the Mandate chronicle their dreams for a reason, be it slight differences in them each time (a possibility) or appearance of new information (also a possibility), or something else. Or all those things combined. However, it's clear that they don't know everything about Seswatha's Dreams. They are still researching them. So even Achamian's educated opinion might be wrong.
And then there is the case of contradictory dreams, which are more than just digressing into mundane events. They are something extremely questionable. You take them to be the truth, but nowhere in the books is this confirmed. Achamian himself is tremendously doubtful about them at some points. And those dreams aren't validated by the information contained in other, non-contradictory dreams, even if those dreams are different from the ones Achamian saw before.
You argue that there are only 2 categories: his initial dreams and his changed dreams. I note that there are more possibilities. There are his initial dreams, then there are his changed, more mundane dreams, and then there are also dreams that contradict his knowledge and expectations of the events dreamed. Those contradictory dreams are not necessarily part of his changed, more mundane dreams, since the contradictory ones started actually before the change, during TTT (the dream with the Heron Spear missing was there, right?).
Does this make sense to you?
-
@Sausuna, oh ho ho, we know that the what comes before and the glossaries have untruths in them definitely, per Bakker. That this is how history was recorded, with mistakes and personal opinions and not facts all the time.
Anyhow, SL and Sausuna we are at an impasse as they say. And, that's fine. Its ok, we don't believe the same thing. I was just trying to persuade you actual evidence from the books is all. No, biggie.
Certainly, I think that just highlights my point. Given we know two things.
- The Dreams can be wrong, per Akka, if not necessarily by his comments from TTT, at least by his ones in TJE where he talks about books full of variations/corruptions/etc.
- Historic accounts (like WCB and the Glossary) can be wrong, per Bakker.
Just leads back to there being enough doubt for me to be unsure which is necessarily true. But agree to disagree, my textual evidence is apparently equally uncompelling.
I imagine at least something of the nature of Akka's dreams will come to light in the next couple books given his RAFO comments.
As I noted, I don't own TTT for review. But the way I took it when I read it, he kept saying it was wrong because it didn't happen that way, typically. Unless you can give me the specific language of the scene again.
Sorry, sir. I won't ignore an honest question. He says just that that this isn't how it happens, it's different and so on. Here's where me and you are not in agreement. You think it as proof as to the untruth of the dream. I take as proof to the truth of the dream, that this is one of Akka's new dreams, ones that Akka only gets. Its just not til a while later he realizes how.much his dreams has changed. As I said before, I think his first dream from TCTCB, where he says, "My face in the mirror, not S." is a subtle hint that his dreams are changing as the world around him is beginning to change, he just doesn't even have a clue at this point. He doesn't even know about the SS's yet. Chalks it up to another of the slight differences in the dreams.
I think this got off track before, but I want to reiterate my stance from my first post on the matter.
"I'm not necessarily in agreement that what he saw was the true sequence of events. I'll say it is possible. And it is possible something else resulted in the No-God's death as well. But I don't think there is enough to give it a lot of weight yet."
I'm not saying his 'this is wrong' comments are proof the dream is wrong. Merely that it raises doubt that it must be true. And what I touched on before above. We have conflicting information from two sources that are both told to explicitly sometimes be wrong/differing at times. He never questions the veracity of future dreams and none of his other dreams contradict history or contradict prior dreams in this manner as far as I recall. But not only does history work towards one sequence of events, the 'this isn't how it happened' comments would also imply it.
So again, this could be the tipping point. It could be a corrupted, post-fever dream. It could be a combination of these things.
-
@ SmilerLoki, no it doesn't make sense In the fact that we have textual evidence to refute it. Read it for yourself. TJE chapter 4, the ending of the chapter. Here is a passage to highlight what I mean. But, it's all there, all I'm trying to explain. No other Mandate has dreamt in this way. Remember Akka is a scholar and muses on readings about others dreams in the Mandate and they all share their dreams amongst each other.
“No other Mandate Schoolman has ever experienced anything like this?” She has asked this already, but it bears repeating. “Nothing,” he replies, his face and posture true to his frailty. He has shrunk into the husk of hides that clothe him. He seems as lonely as he is, and even more isolate. “What can it mean?”
-
@ SmilerLoki, no it doesn't make sense In the fact that we have textual evidence to refute it.
Refute what part of it...? I'm not sure what you mean. Yes, I know that Achamian thinks that no one else has dreamed the way he does, but here he references the way his dreams changed to show more mundane events, those away from the Apocalypse. That's what was happening for the past 20 years, not something completely different, like watching through the eyes of someone other than Seswatha or seeing events happening not the way he had seen them before (the latter happened twice, with the Heron Spear missing and possibly with the Celmomian prophecy being wildly different from it's usual form, am I correct?). Do you read it differently?
It also, of course, indicates that Achamian considers his dreams unprecedented. In no way am I saying otherwise. He thinks so, that's a fact. It being true, on the other hand, is not a fact, since it's only Achamian's opinion, but yes, that opinion is educated, so we can safely assume the kind of dreams he sees can't be easily found in the Mandate archives. [EDIT] Or couldn't be easily found, since Achamian wasn't able to use said archives for the past 20 years. I'm also extremely suspicious of how Serwa conveniently almost never speaks about her dreams.
What's more interesting is the fact that Achamian's dreams are being unusual in more than one way. First, there are dreams that show him more peaceful parts of Seswatha's life. Those are common for him, and have been for quite some time. It's this kind of dream that leads him to the map to Ishual, correct? And then there are contradictory dreams that show events happening differently than recorded in history (we are sure about the dream with the Heron Spear missing, but possibly the dream with Celmomian prophecy also belongs here) and dreams that are seen through the eyes of someone other than Seswatha (those are the dreams about Nau-Cayuti and also the Celmomian prophecy one). I think the dreams that have Achamian switching from Seswatha to someone else started only after he began to take Qirri. Can someone corroborate?
You collate all of these kinds of dreams together, but they can just as well be viewed separately. Do you agree? Not in the sense that you should view them as being separate, because your initial interpretation still can easily be the right one, but in the sense that another interpretation is possible and has similar weight.
-
TaoHorror's Speculiction:
Put it in bold given my prescience on these matters ... me thinks once the 144,000 number spreads through Earwa, many will "volunteer" to assist TNG in reducing the population, the faster humans get to that number, the safer the remainder will be; it's high time that friendly neighbor takes one on the chin for the sake of humanity, charitable work, if you will.
The inspiration for this thought stems from what I found to be quite funny the Ordeal men "chasing" down "deserters" ... "hey, why are you running away?", "because you're chasing me?", "No!, you abandon and betray the Great Ordeal, now slow down so I can eat you!".
-
I think we get another Kellhus sex scene. Crossing my fingers a Ciphrang is involved.
-
Refute what part of it...? I'm not sure what you mean. Yes, I know that Achamian thinks that no one else has dreamed the way he does, but here he references the way his dreams changed to show more mundane events, those away from the Apocalypse. That's what was happening for the past 20 years, not something completely different, like watching through the eyes of someone other than Seswatha or seeing events happening not the way he had seen them before (the latter happened twice, with the Heron Spear missing and possibly with the Celmomian prophecy being wildly different from it's usual form, am I correct?). Do you read it differently?
The mundane events are the very thing that let him know the dreams were changing, why they were different from normal Mandate dreams. He also has dreams through the eyes of Nayu-Cayuti and a nameless sorcerer watching the burning of Sauglish. He straight up says that no other Mandate has dreamed the way he has, I gave you the quote, actual textual evidence. Your not offering me any textual evidence to back up your claim that there not different, none. You're offering me pure speculation, that's it. Which holds more weight, your thoughts or textual evidence?
-
He straight up says that no other Mandate has dreamed the way he has, I gave you the quote, actual textual evidence. Your not offering me any textual evidence to back up your claim that there not different, none. You're offering me pure speculation, that's it. Which holds more weight, your thoughts or textual evidence?
I'm again not sure what you mean. I never said there is textual evidence of other dreams like Achamian's. What I did say was that we know there is no such evidence only from Achamian's own words, which are not the absolute truth. He's a POV character, and POV characters are not in possession of full information and can be mistaken. I also noted how he is literally the only one who ever discusses Seswatha's Dreams in depth. I'm confused, do you postulate that Achamian's words are indisputably true?
The mundane events are the very thing that let him know the dreams were changing, why they were different from normal Mandate dreams.
Yes, but it's one distinct change. Changing the person through whose eyes he sees his dreams is another distinct change, which is not necessarily related to the first. And then seeing events differently than before is a third significant change, again, not necessarily related to the first two. That's my point. You consider them related, and it might be true, but nowhere in the books is this stated. They might be unrelated, and it also might be true, but this isn't stated anywhere, too. So from my point of view those two possibilities are equal. Do you agree with this?
He also has dreams through the eyes of Nayu-Cayuti and a nameless sorcerer watching the burning of Sauglish.
Oh, nice, could you point me to the second dream, please?
-
As to what your saying that we can't trust Akka. We know through him that he has gone over the records of the dreams, discussed dreams with other Mandati and knows the type of differences that are experienced. I do take it reliable, I guess that's were we're disagreeing.
Yes has the first of them in TJE and WLW were he is a toothless wretch being dragged in a line towards the golden room, that's Nayu. Because, in TGO, first Ishual chapter Akka is Nayu and is in a coffin or box or what have you and is taking to Shae. And, well you can read it, it says that he'll never leave and will know agony like never before. Last chapter or scene of TGO, Akka is Nayu again and is finally at the end of that line and enters the Golden Room, sees the IF, and is led to the Carapace. And, thinking on it, Nayu looks at the IF and doesn't see hisself or his hell or make any inner dialogue about it at all. Proof that that's him and being the next to go into the Carapace, as confirmed in TUC by the Mutilated. If the No-God or the one destined to be the No-God looks into the IF, I'm sure it elicits no reaction at all, because of how time works and the Gods are blind to the No-God. Just more proof that what Akka sees is the truth.
Another bit of textual evidence is his scene with Sacareess in TUC when he asks if his dreams have changed and he says (Sacareess) no, just intensified. And Akka says that his has in a whole different way and Sacareess wants to know and Akka denies him. Plenty of proof that what Akka dreams when they change is nothing like any other Mandati has experienced.
-
As to what your saying that we can't trust Akka. We know through him that he has gone over the records of the dreams, discussed dreams with other Mandati and knows the type of differences that are experienced. I do take it reliable, I guess that's were we're disagreeing.
It's not that I don't trust him, it's that I think some key pieces of information about Seswatha's Dreams are deliberately withheld in the narrative. For example, people might have been seeing mundane Dreams from time to time, but not cataloguing them diligently, thinking it's a fluke. Or someone might have seen a contradictory Dream, like the one with the Heron Spear missing, and not mention it at all, considering it not a real Dream. Like, the person seeing it was tired, or upset, or delirious, or any number of other reasons to not put much stock into his dreams.
If only there was some discussion about how different people live with Seswatha's Dreams, what they see, whether they try to influence the dreams or not. But there isn't one. We have Serwa, who is, surprise, Seswatha every single night, and all we get from it is a mention that she has some experience with the Amiolas. And she is a woman, which in itself is interesting, because before the Swayali only men saw the Dreams. But she's not just any woman, she's an Anasurimbor, half-Dunyain, and a Metagnostic sorceress to boot, who was instructed by Kellhus himself. Yes, that prodigious superhuman sorcerer interested in Seswatha's Dreams, which is further evidenced by him incorporating the Grasping into the Swayal Compact. His daughter sees the Dreams, and then we never speak of it again. To me that looks very pointed. There is something there, just like there was something with Kelmomas, and then with Kellhus himself in relation to Ajokli. I can only surmise it's of importance to the third series, so no spoilers on the Slog.
Yes has the first of them in TJE and WLW were he is a toothless wretch being dragged in a line towards the golden room, that's Nayu.
Was that before or after Achamian starts taking Qirri?
I'm also completely in agreement that the wretch in the line to the Carapace is Nau-Cayuti. By all means it should be him.
Another bit of textual evidence is his scene with Sacareess in TUC when he asks if his dreams have changed and he says (Sacareess) no, just intensified. And Akka says that his has in a whole different way and Sacareess wants to know and Akka denies him. Plenty of proof that what Akka dreams when they change is nothing like any other Mandati has experienced.
That entire scene just aggravates my suspicion that some key pieces of the puzzle are not presented to us. Here is a perfectly good chance to have a discussion about Seswatha's Dreams, but there are so many more important concerns no one is very inclined to take the time, and so we get no insight. Sacareess in this scene just seems to me not interested in Achamian at all, wanting to get rid of him as fast as possible. Can't really blame him, he has many pressing issues at that moment, but it's very suspicious from the narrative point of view, considering the importance of Achamian's dreams to the story.
-
= SmilerLoki]For example, people might have been seeing mundane Dreams from time to time, but not cataloguing them diligently, thinking it's a fluke
As the Mandate saying goes, "Seswatha never shits".
-
As the Mandate saying goes, "Seswatha never shits".
Exactly because of this, indeed.
-
But, they say that because they have the same dreams over and over and over of the 1st apocalypse, with small variations. Nothing ever mundane.
-
But, they say that because they have the same dreams over and over and over of the 1st apocalypse, with small variations. Nothing ever mundane.
Or it's the overwhelming majority of their dreams to the point of everything else being overlooked because of their expectation aggravated by the rarity of possible outliers. Seems like human nature to me.
-
The dreams of Seswatha are quite a strange thing to be honest. Part of his soul must be trapped in his mummified heart.
-
Or it's the overwhelming majority of their dreams to the point of everything else being overlooked because of their expectation aggravated by the rarity of possible outliers. Seems like human nature to me.
I guess what your doing is projecting your thoughts and feelings on what you think is true. I have offered quotes and could offer many more, that what your implying is not true textually. And, that's all we have to go by, not fan-fiction. So, I ask you is there any proof in the text to back up your claim? Because we have argued at length over this without any textual evidence from you. I'm not being a smartass and I understand your thoughts. Its just in the context of the series, we're not giving any textual evidence to back up your claim.
-
The dreams of Seswatha are quite a strange thing to be honest. Part of his soul must be trapped in his mummified heart.
Like the Amiolas? Seswatha did wear the thing three times and I believe he commented that the information he learned was invaluable (don't recall the exact phrasing). Initially this 'information' comes across as being related to retrieving the Heron Spear, but perhaps it's true value was from some understanding of the principles of the Amiolas that allowed the creation of the Heart. Still unsure what all the implications would be if so...
-
The dreams of Seswatha are quite a strange thing to be honest. Part of his soul must be trapped in his mummified heart.
Definitely, some seem to think it's like Shae's soul trapping larvae guys, some compare it to the Wathii Doll. Regardless, it his soul trapped in there and the Grasping a bit of that is passed on to the Mandati who grasps. Its how the Gnostic was protected all those years, because even under torture, Seswatha would take over and not relent. I believe it's also a goad, the dreams that is, to keep the Mandate vigilant. Reliving the horrors of the 1st Apocalypse every night.
-
I guess what your doing is projecting your thoughts and feelings on what you think is true. I have offered quotes and could offer many more, that what your implying is not true textually. And, that's all we have to go by, not fan-fiction. So, I ask you is there any proof in the text to back up your claim? Because we have argued at length over this without any textual evidence from you. I'm not being a smartass and I understand your thoughts. Its just in the context of the series, we're not giving any textual evidence to back up your claim.
It' s quite simple. All of our evidence (really, all of it, so it's strange for me to offer it, it's the series in its entirety, just look how every quote you give is taken from Achamian's POV) comes only from Achamian's perspective, and that perspective is by definition flawed. What we know is his educated opinion, not the truth. He also just plainly can't explain some things, changes in his dream included. It's something unknown to him.
It's not even Achamian being unreliable, it's strictly the limits of his POV that just isn't in possession of absolute knowledge.
Also, I should note that I list possible outliers (and can list many more of those), not facts that are strictly confirmed in the narrative. When I say that someone else could've seen a mundane Dream and not catalogued it, I don't mean that it's actually happened in the narrative (just like Ajokli hasn't clearly happened until he had), what I mean is, the facts Achamian presents can also incorporate such a possibility, and not only be interpreted the way he interprets them, because he is also dealing in conjectures. He had access to the Mandate archives, sure, but it's ludicrous to think he read everything collected there. He presumably talked to others ("off-screen") about Seswatha's Dreams, but of course he hasn't talked with everyone or even with the majority of the Mandate throughout history. So when he says "no one has dreamed this way", it's what he thinks, it strictly cannot be taken as an indisputable truth. I never dispute what his opinion looks like, but his opinion is based on many conjectures, the same as ours. I don't understand you bringing it forward as in-universe facts (and in this sense all quotes you bring are evidence of his opinion, and not textual evidence of something being strictly so in Earwa). Do you think his opinion is always factually correct?
I understand that you trust his opinion, but it's a long shot away from calling it evidence of things working exactly the way he theorizes them to.
-
But his opinions match those of Mandate catchphrases, these new dreams are backed up by textual confirmation, which I've posted about. Akka is our only POV into that of Mandate dreams, that's correct. But, it's the authors way of conveying everything about the dreams. It's simple, her SmilerLoki, you're making things up...fan-fiction. I'm offering textual evidence. And, in the end these new dreams are confirmed. What else do you want. It seems your unwilling to concede that your wrong. When is for textual evidence that other Mandate have dreamed like Akka, you offer none, not once. It's just conjecture after conjecture. When you can show me some textual evidence that I am wrong then I continue the conversation. Til, then I'm done with what you think and make up in your head. Sorry, I am seriously trying to not be rude. But, as I said your offering zero in terms of textual evidence And that's all that matters. I've offered plenty to back up my position, you....none. I can't argue with these thoughts your making up in your mind, I can only argue the text. What you want to be the case, simply isn't and in now where in 7 books is there the tiniest bit of evidence to support your argument. This isn't a argument in good faith anymore. Just you saying, "No, well maybe the did have these dreams and just didn't realize it, blah, blah , blah." Which makes zero sense, when the author makes a not of, "Seswatha never shift.". Why would he do that for any other reason but to show that what Akka is experiencing is quite in fact unique?
-
But his opinions match those of Mandate catchphrases, these new dreams are backed up by textual confirmation, which I've posted about.
I don't follow this at all, those dreams are backed up by what confirmation and to what end? You mean, his new dreams exist? Sure. That some information in them is corroborated by other sources? Sure, but only some information, not all of it. As I understand it, you take corroboration of some things in Achamian's dreams as corroboration of others (like the map to Ishual or Nau-Cayuti's fate validating the dream about the Heron Spear missing), which is not how it works. Many things about Nau-Cayuti are confirmed, but the dream with the Heron Spear missing is not only completely unconfirmed, it's in contention with other dreams, and also can be viewed as a dream of completely different kind than Nay-Cayuti ones. The same with the map to Ishual.
Nothing in your quotes disproves this interpretation. Do you think otherwise?
Akka is our only POV into that of Mandate dreams, that's correct. But, it's the authors way of conveying everything about the dreams.
POV is a narrative tool with quite specific properties, its inherent unreliability among them, if not being the most important one. My point is, here POV is used exactly the way it should be, giving us information, but leaving up possibilities of interpretation and, most importantly, doubt. Even the POV character himself here doubts his own opinion.
It's simple, her SmilerLoki, you're making things up...fan-fiction. I'm offering textual evidence.
Again, I'm sorry, but I don't follow. What exactly did I make up in your opinion?
And, in the end these new dreams are confirmed.
Confirmed how? You confuse me. Nothing in your quotes indisputably backs up your theory, those quotes can be just as well read differently. That has been my point for some time in this thread.
What else do you want. It seems your unwilling to concede that your wrong.
I'm becoming more and more convinced that you just misunderstand me completely.
When is for textual evidence that other Mandate have dreamed like Akka, you offer none, not once.
Here is a good example why. I'm not telling there is evidence of other dreams like Achamian's. I don't understand why you would think so. I'm postulating 2 things. First, it's the fact that we know there are no other dreams like his only from his words. It's not a fact, the possibility of other such dreams is not ruled out. The second thing follows from here. If there are no dreams like Achamian's, for sure, then we have him as the only outlier (so it very well might be not the Dreams, but him who's important here). A set of theories can be offered from here, but they are all contingent on the fact that Achamian is the only outlier. If there are actually other dreams like his, meaning he is not the only outlier, than it's more likely the Dreams themselves are important and not him, which opens way for a second set of theories, now contingent on the fact that Achamian's not the only outlier. This information is vital for further logical examination of the problem, without it such examination is just not possible, because at least 2 branching sets of theories (actually more, since there are more important points that create their own sets of theories, I just brought up this one as an example) need to be examined, all of them having similar weight. Nothing then can be narrowed down, and the whole exercise is counterproductive because of the sheer amount of possibilities. That was my starting point, if you remember.
I've offered plenty to back up my position, you....none.
It baffles me that you think so. To my knowledge, I have demonstrated how every quote you brought can be interpreted differently. Which, again, was the point I've started with. There are just too many interpretation of similar weight to focus on just one. There is no logical way to consider one interpretation more likely than all the others.
This isn't a argument in good faith anymore. Just you saying, "No, well maybe the did have these dreams and just didn't realize it, blah, blah , blah."
This makes me almost certain that you misunderstood why I brought the unreliability of Achamian's opinion up.
I agree, it's then better to leave it as it is. I also get a feeling that it's no longer pleasant for you to continue our discussion. It's not in any way very important, so we can just agree to disagree.
Which makes zero sense, when the author makes a not of, "Seswatha never shift.". Why would he do that for any other reason but to show that what Akka is experiencing is quite in fact unique?
Bakker creates a world with its own history, customs, and biases, and those things are not products of logic and reason. He encourages us to doubt and challenge them, to not blindly believe words, authorities, and opinions. Many things during our own history were believed in to then be completely overturned. I feel it's very realistic of Bakker to treat Earwa similarly. So this Mandate saying, bearing weight of countless voices behind it, might only stifle the truth and not reflect it. Just like it was once confidently said that the Sun revolves around the Earth in our world. People were killed because of it.
Basically, where you see neat narrative confirmation, I see layered world-building, underlining complexity of human and historical interactions.
-
The dreams of Seswatha are quite a strange thing to be honest. Part of his soul must be trapped in his mummified heart.
This thread might be difficult to parse... I'm almost thinking we make/revive one specifically to discuss Seswatha/Achamian's dreams.
But Bakker did tell the draft-reading Nascenti we could discuss director's cut notation with the greater fandom and there are sections chopped from TGO/TUC that all but confirm the "Seswatha's soul is preserved in his Heart" speculation.
-
The dreams of Seswatha are quite a strange thing to be honest. Part of his soul must be trapped in his mummified heart.
This thread might be difficult to parse... I'm almost thinking we make/revive one specifically to discuss Seswatha/Achamian's dreams.
But Bakker did tell the draft-reading Nascenti we could discuss director's cut notation with the greater fandom and there are sections chopped from TGO/TUC that all but confirm the "Seswatha's soul is preserved in his Heart" speculation.
That's the kind of stuff that sounds crucial to our understanding of the story. Please do?
-
So Akka having a dream that the map to Ishual is in the Library at Sauglish and the finding it there is not proof? His dreams the Nayu is the wretch led to the Carapace and the Mutiated confirmed this, is proof? I don't know man, again your not arguing in good faith using the text as evidence. Make up your fan-fiction as you've seen want to do.
-
The dreams of Seswatha are quite a strange thing to be honest. Part of his soul must be trapped in his mummified heart.
This thread might be difficult to parse... I'm almost thinking we make/revive one specifically to discuss Seswatha/Achamian's dreams.
But Bakker did tell the draft-reading Nascenti we could discuss director's cut notation with the greater fandom and there are sections chopped from TGO/TUC that all but confirm the "Seswatha's soul is preserved in his Heart" speculation.
That's the kind of stuff that sounds crucial to our understanding of the story. Please do?
And Kellhus 'spoke' to Seswatha
-
The dreams of Seswatha are quite a strange thing to be honest. Part of his soul must be trapped in his mummified heart.
This thread might be difficult to parse... I'm almost thinking we make/revive one specifically to discuss Seswatha/Achamian's dreams.
But Bakker did tell the draft-reading Nascenti we could discuss director's cut notation with the greater fandom and there are sections chopped from TGO/TUC that all but confirm the "Seswatha's soul is preserved in his Heart" speculation.
That's the kind of stuff that sounds crucial to our understanding of the story. Please do?
And Kellhus 'spoke' to Seswatha
Ah yeah I forgot about that part. Wonder if there's a clue in there to how Shaeönanra may have survived (if he's not in the mutilated).
-
So Akka having a dream that the map to Ishual is in the Library at Sauglish and the finding it there is not proof? His dreams the Nayu is the wretch led to the Carapace and the Mutiated confirmed this, is proof? I don't know man, again your not arguing in good faith using the text as evidence. Make up your fan-fiction as you've seen want to do.
Again I don't seem to understand how this follows from my posts. I also don't really get your personal attack about fanfiction and feel it's completely unwarranted. If you're disagreeing, that's your right, and it's absolutely fine. Demeaning my opinion, on the other hand, is not acceptable to me. Is it acceptable to you?
The map to Ishual validates the dream with the map to Ishual. The dreams with Nau-Cayuti are validated to a serious extent by the Mutilated. The dream with the Heron Spear missing is not validated by anything, the dreams about the map and Nau-Cayuti included. Firstly, those were different dreams from the Heron Spear one. Secondly, their properties are not the same as in the dream with the Heron Spear missing. The dreams about the map and Nau-Cayuti give us new information in new (different in both cases) ways, but they don't directly contradict existing historical accounts (not all of them, at least). The dream with the Heron Spear missing does. Do you see this distinction?
I should also note that this distinction may or may not be important, I'm not saying it definitely is (I don't, and, more significantly, think that I presently can't know, since there is not enough information given to the readers). But its importance is key for further logical examination of the problem, because it leads to different sets of largely mutually exclusive theories of equal weight.
-
The dreams of Seswatha are quite a strange thing to be honest. Part of his soul must be trapped in his mummified heart.
This thread might be difficult to parse... I'm almost thinking we make/revive one specifically to discuss Seswatha/Achamian's dreams.
But Bakker did tell the draft-reading Nascenti we could discuss director's cut notation with the greater fandom and there are sections chopped from TGO/TUC that all but confirm the "Seswatha's soul is preserved in his Heart" speculation.
That's the kind of stuff that sounds crucial to our understanding of the story. Please do?
And Kellhus 'spoke' to Seswatha
Ah yeah I forgot about that part. Wonder if there's a clue in there to how Shaeönanra may have survived (if he's not in the mutilated).
Or a clue to what happened to Kellhus?
-
@SmilerLoki, we've argued for pages, I understand your position well. I have never not once claimed any proof of the Heron Spear not killing the No-God in the text. There are clues, that that didn't happen. Akka's dream and the fact of Bakker saying the are intentional untruths the WCB and glossary. I agree neither prove the Heron Spear didn't kill the NG. But, that's not what we're arguing here. We've been arguing that Akka's dreams are different and that has been the xrux of the argument. You say their not. Because, maybe someone, sometime ago had those dreams and didn't think them important... That makes absolutely no sense and isn't corroborated in the text. In fact, the opposite is true, that Akka is experiencing something no other Mandati ever has. I already offered my proof for that again and again. I asked you to show me where, in the text, it could be shown that Akka's dreams aren't special and someone probably already had similar ones, because that's your argument against mine.
I use that Akka dreams, have been confirmed and you agree on some level, I guess. And, I'm using that as a sound judgment that maybe his Heron Spear dream is true, too.
-
We've been arguing that Akka's dreams are different and that has been the xrux of the argument.
This is not what I was talking about. I got a feeling you read my argument that way and so tried to be more clear, but it seems I've failed in that endeavor.
Achamian's dreams are different, that's a fact. We see it time and again in the narrative, it can't be argued against. What I'm interested is, is Achamian unique or does what's happening to him pertain to the nature of the Dreams themselves (he tried to influence them and maybe succeeded, what if someone else repeats his process?)? There are other possible explanations for the change in his dreams, but for simplicity let's focus on those two for the moment. So, right now we have evidence of only Achamian having dreams that he himself considers unique. That's a fact that can't be argued against. Now, what I was saying is, does this rule out the possibility of someone having similar dreams, be it before, after, or simultaneously with Achamian? The possibility of this happening is not ruled out, it can go both ways, the narrative, while not offering evidence of it, doesn't explicitly prohibit it. And it's very important to understand the nature of Seswatha's Dreams, which is of great interest to me.
I use that Akka dreams, have been confirmed and you agree on some level, I guess. And, I'm using that as a sound judgment that maybe his Heron Spear dream is true, too.
I'm completely in agreement with this phrasing.
-
Ok, so we're in agreement that Akka dreams are special. You're just wondering if it's happened sometime in the past...or future.
Well, I think we can rule out the future, I think this is Seswatha's mission to guard against the 2nd Apocalypse, and it's here. Past, again, I don't think so. And hear me out, I guess your right in that the text doesn't rule it out completely. But again, this right now is Seswatha's mission. For whatever reason it's now that a change in the dreams would even matter. It showed Kellhus would be the end, whatever that means coming from a God. It lead him to Ishual and finally to witnessing the Resumption of the No-God and actually save a couple important people and then some. We know that TNG will pick up a couple weeks after the end of TUC. So, who's left to bring the people together but another Seswatha? Maybe, all that going out of the way and such for Akka was a way in which Seswatha (or whoever) saved him. He didn't even fight in the end. Which I thought was strange, very strange.
-
@SmilerLoki, sorry, I wasn't trying to put you down by saying fan fiction. I was just meaning that when it's not offered in the text I can't begin to make up thing that could be happened 1000 years ago on Earwa. That's all. That's fan fiction to me and wasn't demeaning you in any way.
That being said, when you offered that maybe it (mundane dreams), has happened in the past, I brought up the Seswatha never shites phrase. Think on it a minute, Seswatha founded the Mandate, his actual being. And for 2000 years or however long, all the Mandate have been having the dreams. Now, over that period of time, "Seswatha never shites" becomes a catchphrase of the Mandate. Its pretty telling, to me, in all those years they never dreamed of the mundane, only atrocity of the 2nd Apocalypse. That's why I don't think it occurred and is the textual evidence that it hadn't. Because, it would be a big deal. And, that's how Akka knows to pay attention and documenting everything. Its mundane.
-
I should say that I'm not really fond of the idea of Achamian being strictly needed during the Second Apocalypse. This just feels like standard Chosen One fair that to me seems tremendously out of place in these books.
That's not to say it can't happen, because it very well can. In a way, it even makes sense from the structural point of view. The Chosen One archetype was deconstructed with Kellhus, so now reconstructing it is a reasonable direction to go in. It even might be done with the series' unique flair, but nonetheless such a turn of events would be a bit disappointing to me. I would much prefer something more realistic, with everyone being easily replaceable and no one having the spotlight for very long, unless it happens by a completely random stroke of good fortune rather than due to some personal merit.
On the other hand, during the First Apocalypse Seswatha wasn't really the hero. He was, for lack of a better definition, more like Gandalf, sometimes mentor, sometimes heavy hitter, sometimes the only sane man who sees the true danger, though all of this in a kinda more gruesome and down to earth way than in Tolkien's work. Which is, of course, fitting for this series.
I think the parallel between Seswatha in the First Apocalypse and Achamian in the Second can already be drawn.
-
@SmilerLoki, sorry, I wasn't trying to put you down by saying fan fiction. I was just meaning that when it's not offered in the text I can't begin to make up thing that could be happened 1000 years ago on Earwa. That's all. That's fan fiction to me and wasn't demeaning you in any way.
It's okay, I understand.
That being said, when you offered that maybe it (mundane dreams), has happened in the past, I brought up the Seswatha never shites phrase. Think on it a minute, Seswatha founded the Mandate, his actual being. And for 2000 years or however long, all the Mandate have been having the dreams. Now, over that period of time, "Seswatha never shites" becomes a catchphrase of the Mandate. Its pretty telling, to me, in all those years they never dreamed of the mundane, only atrocity of the 2nd Apocalypse. That's why I don't think it occurred and is the textual evidence that it hadn't. Because, it would be a big deal. And, that's how Akka knows to pay attention and documenting everything. Its mundane.
Such sayings tend to be largely true, but not one hundred percent accurate all the time in the real world. "A good deed is never lost", "A little too late is much too late", this kind of fair. I can't really tell how this particular saying should be viewed based on the information presented in the series so far. Maybe it's the equivalent of "The Sun rises in the East", but just as well maybe not. Future revelations can go both ways here.
-
On the other hand, during the First Apocalypse Seswatha wasn't really the hero. He was, for lack of a better definition, more like Gandalf, sometimes mentor, sometimes heavy hitter, sometimes the only sane man who sees the true danger, though all of this in a kinda more gruesome and down to earth way than in Tolkien's work. Which is, of course, fitting for this series.
This is what I would expect. Without a doubt. I don't think sorcery is going to take down the Whirlwind, not with all the chorae caught up in it. No, I'd see Akka just trying to rally humanity, or, dun dun dun searching his special like dreams for an answer as to how to defeat the No-God. But, I don't see it being that clear cut either. He's about all there is left with the knowledge to put up a fight, though.
-
This might sound ridiculous, or maybe not. But, when the series is done, we might not even know if the world survives or not. That's very Bakkerian.
-
Define "survived". I'm pretty sure the world will be closed, but of course that doesn't have to mean that all of humanity will be extinguished.
-
That's the kind of stuff that sounds crucial to our understanding of the story. Please do?
And Kellhus 'spoke' to Seswatha
Ah yeah I forgot about that part. Wonder if there's a clue in there to how Shaeönanra may have survived (if he's not in the mutilated).
Or a clue to what happened to Kellhus?
It might be best for me (or Wilshire or MG or any of the Nascenti whom MG read the relevant TUC passages to) to post about this in full in the Nascenti thread.
But probably none of those things. There were very cool but apparently ultimately superfluous subplots - cut as suggested by long-time beta readers who are not fans - that I don't expect Bakker to follow up on in TNG (though, if I keep being privileged enough to read the drafts, I almost expect he'll try to tuck it in there again and again and keep being rebuffed by the less hardcore beta readers).
In TGO, it was subtle differences in dialogue that indicated that Seswatha was able to express agency in the present. In TUC, as Wilshire has mentioned elsewhere, it actually impacted the plot in ways, that when eliminated, were akin to keeping the punchline without the setup (some portions of TUC the canon artifact still remain referencing the sections cut, which weirds me out but were probably oversights on Bakker's part/lack of serious, engaged editor). The best, of course, being the Seswatha-through-Saccarees council moment where Seswatha declares that his gamble to survive worked and him being thoroughly pleased with himself that another human Ordeal assembled to war on Golgotterath due to his efforts.
But... as my better fandom half, Wilshire, would say... if it's not in the text, it doesn't exist for us to speculation upon.
-
Define "survived". I'm pretty sure the world will be closed, but of course that doesn't have to mean that all of humanity will be extinguished.
Well, wether or not the NG even success. Giving Banker is considering a set of huge Atrocity tales as the path taken in TNG, well I could see that we wouldn't know if TNG wins or doesn't. If the Outside is shut or isn't. He could leave anything and everything completely ambiguous. Anything more Bakkerian than that?
-
This is what I would expect. Without a doubt. I don't think sorcery is going to take down the Whirlwind, not with all the chorae caught up in it. No, I'd see Akka just trying to rally humanity, or, dun dun dun searching his special like dreams for an answer as to how to defeat the No-God. But, I don't see it being that clear cut either. He's about all there is left with the knowledge to put up a fight, though.
I'm still pondering that Subject/Object collapse. Would it in a way mean collapsing causality? What if the No-God being defeated or not is a kind of atemporal event? So it can be defeated or shut the world out only in an absolute way not expressed in the terms of events. So the No-God defeated in the First Apocalypse is, in a way, the No-God summoned again, so in order to influence it another atemporal power is needed, which would influence the No-God in an absolute way. That might mean, put into the terms of events, that the No-God needs to be defeated (or not) in the past and in the present by the same power in the same event, so the First and Second iterations of the Apocalypse are actually related more closely than just by drawing parallels between them.
Sorry, at the moment I can't be clearer than that.
-
This is what I would expect. Without a doubt. I don't think sorcery is going to take down the Whirlwind, not with all the chorae caught up in it. No, I'd see Akka just trying to rally humanity, or, dun dun dun searching his special like dreams for an answer as to how to defeat the No-God. But, I don't see it being that clear cut either. He's about all there is left with the knowledge to put up a fight, though.
I'm still pondering that Subject/Object collapse. Would it in a way mean collapsing causality? What if the No-God being defeated or not is a kind of atemporal event? So it can be defeated or shut the world out only in an absolute way not expressed in the terms of events. So the No-God defeated in the First Apocalypse is, in a way, the No-God summoned again, so in order to influence it another atemporal power is needed, which would influence the No-God in an absolute way. That might mean, put into the terms of events, that the No-God needs to be defeated (or not) in the past and in the present by the same power in the same event, so the First and Second iterations of the Apocalypse are actually related more closely than just by drawing parallels between them.
Sorry, at the moment I can't be clearer than that.
Maybe in a sense it IS causality. An unsconscious God re-writing the causal flow of the World because it is the causal flow. I think you make a good point regarding the parallels.
-
In this case, which I like your thinking, Akka would parallel Seswatha nicely.