that repulsive dipshit Kelmomas;
I recall on the old forum a thread where Bakker (who used to post frequently) was crowing about reading a review from someone who was so repulsed by the brutality in the PON series that she decided to burn the book, which Bakker thought was seriously funny. 7 books and +- 14 years later, I'm seriously thinking of tossing mine. No way I'll leave them around for my kids to discover, and I don't really hate anyone enough to gift them. I gather there is speculation of a further No-God series. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice...
the entire 'what will Sorweel chose' storyline ... wham, he's another WL Warrior last secondThat's the point of being a white luck warrior. Everything you do has been pre-determined since the dawn of Creation itself... that is unless the No-God short-circuits you.
Still angry, revolted and amazed with myself that I slogged through so much filth just to see how it ends...only to find that absolutely nothing about the ending makes the price of admission remotely worth paying.
...the entire 'what will Sorweel chose' storyline ... wham, he's another WL Warrior last second
And along the way we have to slog through the truly demented, repulsive imagination of Scott Bakker.
That was my first impression as well, I read the book too fast.
Now that its sunk into my shell of a skull I love it more than I did before TUC. Give it time young apprentice
It seems quite a lot of you actually found the violence disturbing but personally it didn't phase me at all. Maybe I'm too far gone into the Semantic Apocalypse...You're not alone. I read them with structural appreciation. "Well thought out pointed obscenities here".
Does this structural appreciation include... pleasure 8)?It seems quite a lot of you actually found the violence disturbing but personally it didn't phase me at all. Maybe I'm too far gone into the Semantic Apocalypse...You're not alone. I read them with structural appreciation. "Well thought out pointed obscenities here".
Does this structural appreciation include... pleasure 8)?Don't I wish! Just a sense of understanding the narrative purpose of events and the overarching structure of the book and the series. It's all very educational, actually, since the Second Apocalypse is so contradictory to many narrative conventions.
Where you fall as fodder, I descend as hunger -- which put into full perspective the dialogues in the Great Ordeal about fodder and harvest, I presume it was Kellhus debating / discussing / making a pact with Ajoklis. Awesome stuff.
I like it more and more every day, because it is absolutely a thematic powerhouse, even if it isn't a technical masterpiece.
I like it more and more every day, because it is absolutely a thematic powerhouse, even if it isn't a technical masterpiece.
I liked and enjoyed it but it has some important flaws. Obscurity, confusion, abrupt ending...
I love TUC, think that it provides narrative closure - if first you accept the arcs Bakker planned for TAE, and am not disturbed by the explicit violence therein.
I love TUC, think that it provides narrative closure - if first you accept the arcs Bakker planned for TAE, and am not disturbed by the explicit violence therein.
We, the sick fucks, are the Few apparently.
Wait, what? Dick-eating and fisting to death? Where did that happen? I have some fantasies about writing a novel one day (just like I fantasize about releasing an album) and one of my ideas was to have this big cannibal eating the dicks of little boys. Can't believe Bakker has already scooped me.I love TUC, think that it provides narrative closure - if first you accept the arcs Bakker planned for TAE, and am not disturbed by the explicit violence therein.
We, the sick fucks, are the Few apparently.
I mean, I referenced Bakker's horror b-movie dick-eating moment but for me one that always got me was a cannibal fisting a dude's ass and pulling out his entire intestines like a rope.
I do like the book the more time goes by...Well, if you were rooting for the No-God as any proper (No)-God-fearing materialist should, the ending is kind of positive 8)
I re-read the entire series before TUC...
By the end of the first trilogy, I hated Kellhus and wanted him to die horribly.
By the end of the second trilogy, even knowing Kellhus was a monster, I was actually rooting for him as the least horrible option.
As for TUC, I knew deep down that the No-God had to be coming back or something worse was going to happen, otherwise why would there be a third series?
And still, like others have said, I think we have been all been so conditioned to expect the pat and happy ending, like so many fantasies series have done before. Or, at worst case, the ending of a fantasy series is bittersweet. This one is a giant downer on the negative scale, making Abercrombie seem light hearted. So much so that the ending to me was like the ultimate kick in the balls. Kellhus seemed so powerful that none could oppose him- but wait, he can make mistakes and he makes a huge miscalculation here.
The final scenes are so powerful with the death of Big K, the imagery of hologram Kellhus floating down and oops...oh shit its the No-God, and the crazy retreat. And the last line. I actually felt physically unwell after the end.
Bravo.
With all that said though, I do hope that the NEXT trilogy offers a bit more closure to things, as that will truly be the end so what the hell. Which I doubt we will get.
Wait, what? Dick-eating and fisting to death? Where did that happen? I have some fantasies about writing a novel one day (just like I fantasize about releasing an album) and one of my ideas was to have this big cannibal eating the dicks of little boys. Can't believe Bakker has already scooped me.
Wait, what? Dick-eating and fisting to death? Where did that happen? I have some fantasies about writing a novel one day (just like I fantasize about releasing an album) and one of my ideas was to have this big cannibal eating the dicks of little boys. Can't believe Bakker has already scooped me.
Lmao. I previously brought up elsewhere on the forum that I must have simply watched too many shitty b-horror movies when I was younger because Bakker's obscenity didn't even really register.
At Zaudunyanicon, Bakker told an anecdote along the same lines about his wife and him watching shitty b-horror movies and the one that stuck with him recently was a guy wanting to or being forced to eat another guy's dick.
August Underground was recommended to me by a friend who was then 13 or 14, but I never got around to seeing it, for reasons totally not related to not being able to find a decent illegal rip, but this has my interested piqued again. Also, if anybody finds out what movie the movie was that had the dick-eating, please let me know.Wait, what? Dick-eating and fisting to death? Where did that happen? I have some fantasies about writing a novel one day (just like I fantasize about releasing an album) and one of my ideas was to have this big cannibal eating the dicks of little boys. Can't believe Bakker has already scooped me.
Lmao. I previously brought up elsewhere on the forum that I must have simply watched too many shitty b-horror movies when I was younger because Bakker's obscenity didn't even really register.
At Zaudunyanicon, Bakker told an anecdote along the same lines about his wife and him watching shitty b-horror movies and the one that stuck with him recently was a guy wanting to or being forced to eat another guy's dick.
Sounds like "A Serbian Film" or possibly "Salo". I don't think there's a fucked up horror movie that I haven't seen. If you're looking for repulsive and transgressive try the "August Underground" series. No redeeming qualities save for the effects and the psychotic imagination required to make something like this.
As for TUC, I liked it for the most part because I think Bakker writes extraordinary prose that conveys great meaning with few words. He has a way with metaphor and description that is unmatched. Unfortunately, he occasionally lapses into dense and impenetrable flights of fancy and loses me. Examples include Serwe's burning heart, the passage regarding Koringhus and the Zero God, the head on the pole and the golden room to name a few that come to mind.
I was terribly disappointed in the end as I think the prose, once again, became much too opaque and simply deciphering what was actually occurring became difficult. This coupled with the "out of nowhere" possession by Ajokli and then the subsequent possession of Cnaiur, it all felt rushed and disjointed. Almost like Bakker lacked a satisfactory way to wrap up the story. I think I was expecting more given Bakker's claim that the "G-string was going to fly across the room". To me, this ending was decidedly not that! Given the lack of clarity in the prose and the numerous narrative dead-ends, instead of seeing the g-string fly I felt more like the girl put her pants back on, wrapped herself up in a snow suit, punched me in the throat and then left the club!
If I set aside my feeling of disappointment and rejection of my hero failing, the end of the book plays out quite nicely. Think of the dark irony and revealatory horror a la Planet of The Apes ending "You Blew It All Up!" Or imagine a Twilight Zone episode ending, with Rod Sterling declaring "And so ends the Great Ordeal, meant to prevent the Second Apocalypse, it became the very vehicle to deliver their enemy's main weapon and doom mankind".
I was quite upset and depressed the evening I finished the book, but I felt better about it later on, like so many here...
Wasn't it wonderful to watch Kellhus manipulate and control everything through the first trilogy? Anticipate and conquer every single turn of events as PoN progressed? And so I came to identify and cheer Kellhus on (like many others, I suspect). He was the one with all the answers, with deepest understanding and all the technically correct (the best kind of correct) solutions...
And yet I believed - believed! - that Kellhus had all the answers and would be in control of events. If his son, The Survivor, had seemingly "solved the problem" with such limited time and access to the outside world, then surely Kellhus with his decades of experience would be able to do even better. I did not expect a "good ending" ... I had faith Kellhus would find a way between damnation at the hands of gods and shutting the world against them with No-God - a third way if you will.
In other words, I had come to have all the same expectations and identification of a traditional fantasy hero with a character meant specifically to undermine and subvert the very same genre and expectations! What a terrible disappointment it had been to find my hero fail at the end of the book. But I suspect this was the trap Mr. Bakker set for us all along...
I was quite upset and depressed the evening I finished the book, but I felt better about it later on, like so many here...
Wasn't it wonderful to watch Kellhus manipulate and control everything through the first trilogy? Anticipate and conquer every single turn of events as PoN progressed? And so I came to identify and cheer Kellhus on (like many others, I suspect). He was the one with all the answers, with deepest understanding and all the technically correct (the best kind of correct) solutions...
And yet I believed - believed! - that Kellhus had all the answers and would be in control of events. If his son, The Survivor, had seemingly "solved the problem" with such limited time and access to the outside world, then surely Kellhus with his decades of experience would be able to do even better. I did not expect a "good ending" ... I had faith Kellhus would find a way between damnation at the hands of gods and shutting the world against them with No-God - a third way if you will.
In other words, I had come to have all the same expectations and identification of a traditional fantasy hero with a character meant specifically to undermine and subvert the very same genre and expectations! What a terrible disappointment it had been to find my hero fail at the end of the book. But I suspect this was the trap Mr. Bakker set for us all along...
This is a good post, Mandos, and pretty much mirrors my thoughts.
As Cnaiur says, "they make us love" and "it all a ruse, he's Dunyain (or something very similar)" :o :'(:-[
Bakker put us through the most vile celebration imaginable, and the fact that it becomes tedious after a while is a statement in itself. It's pointless and glorious and transcendent.Good point. It's not just about being vile for pure shock value, but also about mind/body dualism, the "holiness" in transcending our subjective selves to the objective world, of existing as paradoxical beings-in-the-world, our finitude, etc.
If Meppa doesn't play a big part in the follow-up, then there was no point in letting him survive Esme's chorae.I kept thinking that it's a great way to present Kellhus's POV without actually doing it. It's a narrative device. This allows us to be observers even when no one else is present (often so that we can be justifiably mislead regarding Kellhus's own thoughts/nature/state). [shit ... I was thinking of Malowebi, not Meppa! Sorry for the confusion. I'm confused. Too many names.]
It subverts the Epic Fantasy Grand Finale just as well as the characters and story have so far subverted every trope and cliche in fantasy writing.I do recognize that there are several significant subversions of fantasy tropes, but not "every." (This is not as much a criticism of Bakker's work as a criticism of the hyperbole surrounding it.) This applies to his "Epic Fantasy Grand Finale," too, since TUC isn't the end. Every series has reversals of fortune. If you'd stopped reading after Morgoth stole the Silmarils, you could say the same thing about Tolkien. So we don't have enough information yet to determine if this is actually as subversive as you're claiming.
What I will say is, TUC suffers far more being the second half of a split novel than TGO suffered being the first half. You can positively feel the absence in places. (Probably less impactful if you've read TGO obsessively numerous times, or had opportunity for a re-read shortly before TUC's release.) The one ridiculously long novel would have been better, financial realities of modern publishing be damned.
Would have liked a bit more time with the New Consult, Kellhus and the Mutilated waxing philosophical about their opposing agendas, rather than a curt, "Whatcha gonna do? Gnosis goes one way, Tekne the other!" analysis of the differences.I agree.
I do recognize that there are several significant subversions of fantasy tropes, but not "every." (This is not as much a criticism of Bakker's work as a criticism of the hyperbole surrounding it.) This applies to his "Epic Fantasy Grand Finale," too, since TUC isn't the end. Every series has reversals of fortune. If you'd stopped reading after Morgoth stole the Silmarils, you could say the same thing about Tolkien. So we don't have enough information yet to determine if this is actually as subversive as you're claiming.
I didn't feel the splitting of two novels as much for TUC as for TGO. The episodic feeling of the latter can't be a criticism of the former, since it's the finale. It would have ended at the same place regardless (I assume) and thus suffered exactly the criticisms being levied now.
You just said it wasn't the finale. Make up your damn mind! ;)
Oft-criticized segments such as the Great Ordeal's Cannibal Sodomy Holocaust, I think, would carry more weight were the descent into madness not so seemingly sudden as the carving into two novels makes it feel in the absence of a re-read immediately prior.I didn't realize these were oft-criticized. I loved those segments.
Cannibal Sodomy Holocaust
Kinda sounds like an Impiety song title.Cannibal Sodomy Holocaust
Just saying: I'm loving this denomination. It could be a black metal band ;D
Cannibal Sodomy Holocaust
Just saying: I'm loving this denomination. It could be a black metal band ;D
Cannibal Holocaust is a classic snuff horror film from decades back. Actors legitimately thought the director was going to murder them. Bakker and his wife would love it, if they haven't seen it yet.I was honestly disappointed by Cannibal Holocaust. It wasn't nearly as extreme as I'd imagined it. Sweet theme though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf1Vt6r-sj8
And everything's better with sodomy, of course.
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I watched it with my old roommate and her boyfriend at the time. I'm not a huge fan of snuff horror in general, too desensitized to care about the gore and not sadistic enough to revel in it. Give me psychological dread and existential doubt over blood and guts any day.Cannibal Holocaust is a classic snuff horror film from decades back. Actors legitimately thought the director was going to murder them. Bakker and his wife would love it, if they haven't seen it yet.I was honestly disappointed by Cannibal Holocaust. It wasn't nearly as extreme as I'd imagined it. Sweet theme though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf1Vt6r-sj8
And everything's better with sodomy, of course.
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*points to himself*
I loved TUC, and I have enjoyed all of his books (not all are great, aka TWLW).
I know you hate it but you know what's great? You FELT something. How many books have you read that you just thought, "Meh" and forgot it after you put it down. How many pop songs have you heard that reverberate in your brain and never make you feel anything or inspire you? So much of the artistic medium is devoted to appealing to the most common denominator in order to hit all those same pleasure-receptors in your brain long enough for you to buy that stupid shit. Meanwhile originality gets suppressed and you live in a bubble never having to feel or think anything new. So it turns out you hated this work, but you know what? A work of art that can make you hate it is better than something that doesn't make you feel at all.
*points to himself*
I loved TUC, and I have enjoyed all of his books (not all are great, aka TWLW).
I know you hate it but you know what's great? You FELT something. How many books have you read that you just thought, "Meh" and forgot it after you put it down. How many pop songs have you heard that reverberate in your brain and never make you feel anything or inspire you? So much of the artistic medium is devoted to appealing to the most common denominator in order to hit all those same pleasure-receptors in your brain long enough for you to buy that stupid shit. Meanwhile originality gets suppressed and you live in a bubble never having to feel or think anything new. So it turns out you hated this work, but you know what? A work of art that can make you hate it is better than something that doesn't make you feel at all.
Well said, nFisher - you articulated the point much better than I could. Though I'm hampered by the fact I loved all of the books ( including TWLW - not sure how that was called out as not great ), so I don't identify with those who "hate" the story/books. So much of it was exciting and Bakker's descriptions of horror resonate richly for me ... some of this stuff really scared me, which is awesome.
At least we have The False Sun and ill consider that my go to for cool Unholy Consult pov and background.
5. Because i dont have TGO near me i have a quick question that i just cannot recall the answer to. At the end of TGO when future/current/always No-God Kel interrupts the Narindar creeping up on Kellhus, which god does that WLW belong to? Yatwer, Ajokli, Momas? I just cant recall.
Anyways, upon review, i like TUC (HOG) better than before but i am still moderately unsatisfied. Meh.
I find your bafflement baffling!Well, I think there is a difference between saying another title might 'much more fitting and inspiring' compared to saying it is 'a cheap 3 card monty type of subterfuge ... it sucked.'
I still find it baffling someone even takes titles in a very serious manner to the point of saying it sucked. A title is just a title. We already had an idea of what some of the story would be from the outline/blurb and prior comments. If someone thinks the title was subterfuge, I think they buy too much into titles in general.
I actually agree with Rots, but for a different reason. I'm fairly well put off by the title as it's a spoiler. For any new readers, The Consult could well be bullshit for several books, maybe even into the 6th as we don't see Aurang until near the end of that book. Even in TUC, the eerie silence and apparent "no one's at home" approach to the horns was yielding some confusion and "what if the damn thing's abandoned" were my thoughts. VERY cool, clever writing and would've been more wild if the title was more along the lines of what Rots is suggesting.We do see Aurang from TDTCB though.
So I find the ending very satisfying and don't find it to be a betrayal by the author, myself - but I do take exception to the title for "spoiling" the story before the book is read.
And some words have less importance than others. The comments about everything being revealed is an entirely different complaint than comments on the title.I still find it baffling someone even takes titles in a very serious manner to the point of saying it sucked. A title is just a title. We already had an idea of what some of the story would be from the outline/blurb and prior comments. If someone thinks the title was subterfuge, I think they buy too much into titles in general.
Titles matter because words have meaning. The previous 6 titles have been very on point and appropriate, imo, in a way that this title and book were not. The title primes the reader and in this case there was a misfire. I find that disappointing. RSB had mentioned something about the g-string (or whatever) coming off in this book and that primes his audience to expect X when instead we got Y.
For us who have journeyed with the authorIts been a thrilling and exciting time to be a TSA fan. I regret nothing, including the future experience of readers that might not exist ;)
I didn't very much like it, I'm afraid. In addition to prose being hard to understand at parts, I felt like a lot of the storylines hit dead ends. That, and my every favourite character getting killed off made this one the book I least enjoyed.
The more I think about it, the angrier I become.
The more I think about it, the angrier I become.
The more I think about it, the angrier I become.
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That, and my every favorite character getting killed off made this one the book I least enjoyed.
I didn't very much like it, I'm afraid. In addition to prose being hard to understand at parts, I felt like a lot of the storylines hit dead ends. That, and my every favourite character getting killed off made this one the book I least enjoyed.
Bakker wanted us to be dismayed by the ending - don't let him manipulate you, let him know we're too quick to allow us to be Dunyain'd by him - LOVE the ending, toss the book up into the air and shout to the heavens, "Humanity loses, AWESOME!"
Perhaps... Perhaps we should just give in. The world should be destroyed! Rape monsters and genocides for the win!
The more I think about it, the angrier I become.
That bad?
I've was wondering where you'd been....
I'm telling you'all, Bakker is playing you - don't let it happen. Don't let anyone ( including me ) manipulate you! Time to root for the bad guy(s), go Consult! He says those who hated the ending get the books more so then those who didn't ...
he's outright admitting he's fucking with us.
I'm telling you'all, Bakker is playing you - don't let it happen. Don't let anyone ( including me ) manipulate you! Time to root for the bad guy(s), go Consult! He says those who hated the ending get the books more so then those who didn't ...
he's outright admitting he's fucking with us.
The story isn't what I thought it would be, which is more my fault than anything, but I do feel the Prince of Nothing portended more than what we got from the Aspect Emperor.
Not that bad!
I also got married in mid-October and was honeymooning for a bit after that, so haven't been able to participate in as much of the followup discussions.
You might be onto something.
My frustration is a result of that Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast, where he said he's basically had this image of the No-God rising and has been trying to get to that point for the last thirty years. So I feel like he wanted to tell this really dark, epic story that would culminate in this ultra bad ass scene. And then he realized he should probably write a prequel series that took place twenty years earlier to explain how those characters got there.
So basically, in the process of his original vision, he inadvertently wrote one of the greatest fantasy trilogies of all time. I was expecting more for that story, instead of something just building up to a really badass scene. I feel like the curtain finally got pulled back and behind it was a giant mirror of everything we had already seen. Everything about the mythos, the Nonmen, the Inchoroi, the First Apocalypse, the Dunyain, has pretty much been explained since the Thousandfold Thought. There's no hidden agenda behind the Consult's disappearance 300 years ago, the Scholastic Wars, Fanimry, or everything that went down with Moenghus and Maithanet. The story isn't what I thought it would be, which is more my fault than anything, but I do feel the Prince of Nothing portended more than what we got from the Aspect Emperor.
You guys are right, your points are valid - they just didn't "ruin" the story for me.
A man once said "Schindler's List is the worst comedy movie I have ever seen" and I agree with those words.
One of the most different and amazing things I have ever read. It didn't go the way I wanted the story to go, but I thought it was perfect. I did not let that color my feelings on the book. I am Team Kellhus all the way and I wanted a win for him; obviously not what happened. Bakker books read like scripture and tell me more about me as a person than any other thing I have read. I can't wait for more. It transcends reading because of how he writes; how can you not want more of this? ASOIAF, Kingkiller Chronicles, Dresden, The Iron Druid, and even Dragonlance and that old stuff doesn't come close to what Bakker has done with his books and world. Time spent rereading, lurking on here and researching related topics to *know*. That is amazing. The only thing that comes close is Richard Kadrey or Wily Vlautin; check them out- good thinking man writing.
I'd hesitate to call Malazan similar to TSA on almost any metric. Loved the series, don't get me wrong, but other than both of them being fantasy war novels I'd say they are quite dissimilar, tbh. Plenty disagree though :)