[Triskele]

Question:  do we see on screen that all of the Cishaurim assassins that attack the Scarlet Spires are eventually killed once the rest of the SS respond? 

thermerchant just through out an idea elsewhere or just the beginning of an idea about how Meppa might be able to reveal more about the attack on the SS if he starts to get his memories back.  I need to reread the scene to see if the text allows for any chance of a Cishaurim surviving even if incapacitated. 

What if one of the Cish was knocked out during the SS response but had lost his memory so they kept him around and experimented?  Could this explain how The Last Cishaurim is named Meppa when the only other mention of "Meppa" in the text is the "Meppa Cataract" which is a spell used by the Scarlet Spires?

[mrganondorf]

lol, i was just reading themerchant proposing something similar about Meppa!  it never occured to me Triskele and its a cool idea!

I think the scene is recounted from Eleazarus POV.  He uses a dragonhead on them, so I don't know if they would be entirely incinerated or if they could use that as cover to appear incinerated. 

[Triskele]

Yeah, I found it, and it seemed pretty clear that he killed all three with a single dragonhead and felt that their suffering had been too short.  Bummer for that theory unless there was another Cish who was "off screen" who helped with the infiltration.

[themerchant]

Yeah i didn't have TDTCB handy to check. He might still be able to reveal a back story to it without having being there.

[Wilshire]

Odd, though, that a single dragonhead from a young Eleazarus killed all 3 assassins. Shows that the ones they sent are low ranking and/or not particularly adept at wielding the Psuke. To think, the Grandmaster killed by mere field spies...

[mrganondorf]

Odd, though, that a single dragonhead from a young Eleazarus killed all 3 assassins. Shows that the ones they sent are low ranking and/or not particularly adept at wielding the Psuke. To think, the Grandmaster killed by mere field spies...

Perhaps their mission was to kill and then be killed?

[Wilshire]

Would take a powerful driver for that. The Cish are even fewer than the few, though I imagine religious fervor goes a long way.

[mrganondorf]

Would take a powerful driver for that. The Cish are even fewer than the few, though I imagine religious fervor goes a long way.

Like having three dudes travel to Zeum just to cut their own throats? 

I wonder about the number of Cishaurim.  Could be bigger than it seems.

ALL OF ISHUAL GOES CISHAURIM AFTER KELLHUS LEAVES

[Wilshire]

Like having three dudes travel to Zeum just to cut their own throats? 
ALL OF ISHUAL GOES CISHAURIM AFTER KELLHUS LEAVES

Exactly what I was suggesting. Like father like son.

I wonder about the number of Cishaurim.  Could be bigger than it seems.

I think the text suggests they don't have many members (whether or that is reliable is up to you I suppose).
I don't remember who said that or when though, so I may have made it up.

How many battles did the Cish actually fight in? I thought it was only like 2 or 3. The first was near the beginning, right after Kellhus' first prediction, and obviously Shimeh. Both cases we only saw a couple Cish.

At Shimeh there were, what, like 4 Primaries that Kel killed? One of those was also battle Elazarus. A couple that battled with one of the Ciphrang. And then there where several that hid within the walls with the army to burst out in surprise.
I just got the feeling that there weren't even that many at Shimeh, their holy city. Dunyain influence or not, I would think that they would throw all (maybe all -1) they had at the Holy War to defend their home and religious center.

[mrganondorf]

I'm suggesting that the Cishaurim have pulled off a long-term massive cover up of their numbers!  They let on that they have about as many as the Scarlet Spires and they sacrifice many on the way to and in Shimeh to make all the 3 seas and Kellhus and the Consult believe that they are extinguished.  Now they can work in the shadows like never before!

The Cishaurim seem plainly secretive + independent of the padirajah + have a dunyain ... could = many many more Cishaurim!  Sacrifice ~100 sorcerers to hide ~200 from all the world! 

Think of the concerts!  The Mangaecca send Aurang out in a measely man/crow body -- the Cishaurim warp Moenghus (and others) to Agongorea in goddamn warrior-tank-beasts!!!

Wouldn't someone find 200 cishaurim hanging out at a snakehead rec center?  With enough psukhe and meta-psukhe, the glamour would be so impenetrable and invisible it bring tears to the eyes of the guy who walled up the Ark. 

Fuck, maybe they would even be hid from the gods!  Maybe the reason Yatwer moves against Kellhus is because she finally *noticed* his extreme sorcery.  Maybe the psukhe hides a person from all?

[Wilshire]

This is precisely why I believe the Psuke has been extinguished, as I commented on the Cishaurim thread.

Any way, did they say somewhere that they had as many as SS? That is surprising to me, considering SS is by far the largest school, several times the size of the other schools (excluding the Cish of course).

[Triskele]

We get a take on their numbers for the perspective of the SS.  Eli and Iyokus are talking about what their reports show from when the Shrial Knights charged and took out 12 Cishaurim on the Battleplain.

The narration says something like "it was believed that the Cishaurim could field at most 100 to 120" and that this is near to what the SS could field (but suggests that the SS has slightly more).  But it seems the SS misread other things about the Cishaurim, so who knows how reliable this is. 

It's funny.  The SS seems to think that the Psukhe is "sometimes unfathomably powerful" but of course somehow still inferior to the Anagogis. 

[mrganondorf]

We get a take on their numbers for the perspective of the SS.  Eli and Iyokus are talking about what their reports show from when the Shrial Knights charged and took out 12 Cishaurim on the Battleplain.

The narration says something like "it was believed that the Cishaurim could field at most 100 to 120" and that this is near to what the SS could field (but suggests that the SS has slightly more).  But it seems the SS misread other things about the Cishaurim, so who knows how reliable this is. 

It's funny.  The SS seems to think that the Psukhe is "sometimes unfathomably powerful" but of course somehow still inferior to the Anagogis. 

I agree, I think the SS's shortcomings make their conclusions doubtful.  I wonder if Bakker developed any numbers about Kellhus uniting and maximizing the schools over the 20 year interval.  Would be interesting.

[Wilshire]

There is the potential there for an extreme increase in numbers for The Few. All of them, especially the mandate, where thrust into a position of high regard. They would have been recruiting heavily, openly, and with the full support of the people. I'm guessing most would be eager to join the ranks, and anyone from children to older men would have been given the chance. 20 years is a long time.

Kellhus might have even done experiments with breeding schoolmen, or at least encouraging schoolmen to have as many children as possible on the off chance that they are more likely to be of the Few. Anyone born in the first 5ish years of his reign would be capable of joining the Ordeal when it marched, and 15-20 years of rigorous training could make some pretty badass schoolmen.

[mrganondorf]

Too true--and if Kellhus is thinking past the end of Golgotterath, he may be maximizing the number of sorcerers for decades to come.  One of the new divine laws of Kellic scripture: all schoolman are commanded to breed as much as possible.