[TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers

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JRControl

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« Reply #60 on: August 19, 2016, 10:09:03 pm »
You always have to give way for the rule of cool. TSA has both style and substance.
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citizensnips

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« Reply #61 on: August 20, 2016, 05:02:24 pm »
I can tell you where I draw the line. Snatch arrows from mid-air, OK. But that scene in one of the first books where Kel is fighting skin spies in a darkened basement and he gets them to rush into one corner by throwing his voice there? Not feeling it, because a) that's not really how "throwing your voice" works and b ) are parlor tricks a normal part of Dunyain conditioning?

Also, how the heck did Kel know what a shark even is?

The Sharmat

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« Reply #62 on: August 21, 2016, 08:08:16 am »
I'm now curious how Kel even knew what a woman was the first time he met one.

I'm not going to address the rest of it because it's clear there's no point. But I will say this: I find it amusing that members of a forum dedicated to these books of all thing would think that I choose where I draw the line. That comes from the legion within, guys  ;)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 08:09:54 am by The Sharmat »

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #63 on: August 21, 2016, 08:58:35 am »
I'm now curious how Kel even knew what a woman was the first time he met one.


Bred for intellect.  And breasts.  ;)  You don't have to be a Dunyain to figure out the humanoid with breasts is female.

Callan S.

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« Reply #64 on: August 21, 2016, 09:26:37 am »
It's obvious that women have cartilage for bones, silly!

Besides, who said he 'recognised' women when he got out? May have just worked it out on the fly like he worked out languages in three days (remember how he was stuck with the women's version of the Slycvendi language since that's all he was exposed to? But he didn't really recognise that...)


Frail

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« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2016, 02:11:22 am »
I'm now curious how Kel even knew what a woman was the first time he met one.

I'm not going to address the rest of it because it's clear there's no point. But I will say this: I find it amusing that members of a forum dedicated to these books of all thing would think that I choose where I draw the line. That comes from the legion within, guys  ;)
In the first book Kellhus gazes at the mountain slopes during training, and he finds them comparable to a womans back. So he does know the feminine form from somewhere. I always thought that the descendants from the boy-who-lived from Ishual's prologue were the people in the defacing room, but after TGO it is probably more likely the ones chained and unmasked are other Dunyain.

I also dont have an issue with the whale mothers, I dont know why they have been simplified to this on the forums. I think it is a comparison told through Mimara when she was very young, so these are not two hundred foot abominations, but more along the lines of the fat lady from Slither.

Callan S.

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« Reply #66 on: August 22, 2016, 04:28:04 am »
Quote
In the first book Kellhus gazes at the mountain slopes during training, and he finds them comparable to a womans back.
It'd be funny if the mountain was just weird as fuck in outline - it's just reader projection that made it actually comparable to a human back.

Wilshire

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« Reply #67 on: August 22, 2016, 02:32:52 pm »
Great post, sohorat.

My own problem with the Whale Mothers was that I failed to see the point - what purpose did they serve, if the Dunyain children looked like the "worldborn"

Were the Dunyain born in litters? 

I think the primary purpose of the Whale Mothers was to once again show that the Dunyain are monsters. The reader spends a lot of time being seduced by Kellhus, its scenes like this that remind us that he and the Dunyain are barely human.

I've  detailed elsewhere what potential purpose they might served in that form, baring children in litters is another good idea - though that'll bring another slew of criticisms I think.

In the end I think its way beyond the point - its largely a plot device to show some amount of  'objectively evil/damned'.

It seems like the real issue is that readers suspend disbelief in the service of their own interests, and if those aren't served, they balk.

"So, you want to tell me about super-badass Thought-Dancer Monks? SOLD."

"Wait, that dude just blew up that building by yelling at it? NICE."

"Ok, there's these women...shackled...and - did you just say shitting dogs?  Um, NOPE." 
A thousand times yes.

I'm now curious how Kel even knew what a woman was the first time he met one.

I'm not going to address the rest of it because it's clear there's no point. But I will say this: I find it amusing that members of a forum dedicated to these books of all thing would think that I choose where I draw the line. That comes from the legion within, guys  ;)
I'm disappointed :( . Why isn't there a point? The entire point is having a conversation, the only way to make it pointless is to end it mid-way through.



I can tell you where I draw the line. Snatch arrows from mid-air, OK. But that scene in one of the first books where Kel is fighting skin spies in a darkened basement and he gets them to rush into one corner by throwing his voice there? Not feeling it, because a) that's not really how "throwing your voice" works and b ) are parlor tricks a normal part of Dunyain conditioning?

Also, how the heck did Kel know what a shark even is?
lol yeah, in retrospect that is ridiculous. I think its in TWP, btw.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 06:54:03 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Mog Kellhus

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« Reply #68 on: August 22, 2016, 02:44:07 pm »
The first time Kellhus met a woman was at Atrithau.And since that part was skipped we will never know what was his reaction.

Unless of course there will be an Atrocity Tale about Kellhus in Atrithau,now that would be cool!!

Wilshire

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« Reply #69 on: August 22, 2016, 03:03:12 pm »
The first time Kellhus met a woman was at Atrithau.And since that part was skipped we will never know what was his reaction.

Unless of course there will be an Atrocity Tale about Kellhus in Atrithau,now that would be cool!!
I think most everyone wants a Silmarillion of lost TSA tales.
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Frail

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« Reply #70 on: August 22, 2016, 04:59:45 pm »
The first time Kellhus met a woman was at Atrithau.And since that part was skipped we will never know what was his reaction.

Unless of course there will be an Atrocity Tale about Kellhus in Atrithau,now that would be cool!!
I loved that moment, how we catch up with Kellhus in medias res fighting/fleeing from Sranc with his little-dunyain. Its one of the great gem's from the first book, so much to read into this paragraph.

 He needed only to assemble these truths into coarse sermons,
and they would surrender possessions, lovers, even children. Forty-seven men had
accompanied him when he rode from Atrithau’s southern gates, calling themselves
the adunyani, the “little Dünyain.” Not one survived the trek across Suskara. Out of
love they had sacrificed everything, asking only for words in return.

While we dont need to see this event, I too would love reading a full description, perhaps even from a civilian's POV in Atrithau. I figured Kellhus probably got as many followers as he could, enough to cross Suskara, but would not want to take full reign of Atrithau, as that would be a distraction, and a potential threat for Ishual's hidden location. I don't remember the second time he talks about Atrithau, but he does mention it later, something along the lines of "the ones who distrusted the most, became his most fervent followers."

Somnambulist

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« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2016, 05:44:16 pm »
Quote
He needed only to assemble these truths into coarse sermons,
and they would surrender possessions, lovers, even children. Forty-seven men had
accompanied him when he rode from Atrithau’s southern gates, calling themselves
the adunyani, the “little Dünyain.” Not one survived the trek across Suskara. Out of
love they had sacrificed everything, asking only for words in return.

That's always chilled me, especially the bold.  Did Kellhus actually use children for some nefarious purpose(s), or is it saying merely that he could have?  The implications are horrible, and would have set readers against him from the beginning if that were the case.  It also speaks a lot to the attitudes of the people in Atrithau, that a certain number of them would have surrendered their children to him had he asked, especially after a (probably) relatively short stay there.  Desperate and/or naive, if they were anything like Leweth, I guess.  Atrithau is definitely one of those bits of the story that would be interesting to find out about at some point.  Digressing.
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« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2016, 07:44:25 pm »
On topic, Sharmat's post in another thread made me think that Whale-Mothers and Dunyain-Fathers to be are probably equally rare occurrences in high birth rates, among a whole slew of abominations, defectives, and mules.

Off topic, I want to say there's a quote somewhere suggesting that Bakker had written some of Kellhus' time in Atrithau already...
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2016, 07:47:01 pm »
Great post, sohorat.

My own problem with the Whale Mothers was that I failed to see the point - what purpose did they serve, if the Dunyain children looked like the "worldborn"

Were the Dunyain born in litters? 

I think the primary purpose of the Whale Mothers was to once again show that the Dunyain are monsters. The reader spends a lot of time being seduced by Kellhus, its scenes like this that remind us that he and the Dunyain are barely human.
This might explain the disconnect in part. I didn't need any convincing. I already believed the Dunyain, including Kellhus, are monsters.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #74 on: August 22, 2016, 07:55:32 pm »
I'm disappointed :( . Why isn't there a point? The entire point is having a conversation, the only way to make it pointless is to end it mid-way through.
Because ultimately neither of us actually know the answer to the questions, it's arbitrary, and therefore is impossible for one of us to convince the other.