Kellhus ultimate goal?

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Monstar

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« Reply #75 on: May 29, 2014, 10:01:09 pm »
If he is still following TTT, I'm thinking Kellhus' goals should be:
1. Destroy the dunyain.
2. Eliminate the consult & destroy inverse fire.
3. Exterminate the nonmen.
4. Ensure all the sorcerers in the ordeal die.
5. Fix it so the cish replace the thousand temples when the New Empire falls.
6. Die.

With the schools, consult and nonmen gone and the Cish priests running the theological side, the chance of the no-god project ever being taken up by anyone else is pretty much eliminated.

That's awesome!  Although it makes it seem unnecessary/risky to kill so many Cish in the first trilogy--what do you think is going on with that?

Id rob and adapt some of your views to mine

Kallhus puts everything humanity has in one big effort to achieve his aims of taking over the consult with the aims of reincarnating the No-God. He will ensure in the process of reincarnating the No-God that the army along with the vast majority of mages are eliminated. Mankind is bankrupted and largely leaderless and will find it difficult to field an army. The lack of mages to use magic against the consult will also minimize any possiblities of failure.

Alternatively the matches he brings with him might be necessary for a sacrifice to brink back the No-God, maybe the False Sun was used in this way but another sacrifice is needed as his power was destroyed by the spear.

Another possibility, maybe the mages are neccesary as a sacrifice to power the Heron spear. Kallus is manipulating the Consult as he does everyone and needs to get the army close enough to the No-God to destroy it completely.

IMO I get the feeling that the army is going to be necessary in the end and have an image of Achamian turning up at the right time to save it with the rebels we've been seeing together the new leaders.

One we know Kallus needs that army and the mages for something and is trying to get them to survive to a certain point.

mrganondorf

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« Reply #76 on: May 31, 2014, 09:29:02 am »
I agree Monstar--that Kellhus has taken almost all of the sorcerers and so much military might makes it seem like the Great Ordeal has to fail in order to raise the stakes for book 7.  Either the No-God returns or something worse.  Esmi's comment at the end of WLW about all humanity uniting if the No-God returns seems like a nice foreshadow...Esmi saves the world in the third trilogy!  :P  It's HER TURN to use the Heron Spear.

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #77 on: May 31, 2014, 03:09:34 pm »
Monstar, taking over the consult would just be another step towards an ultimate goal.  Are you suggesting that this goal is the same as the consult?

Raising the No-god means becoming a slave to it, according to the glossary.  Probably not something Kellhus would want, imo.

The False Sun was buried with Titirga.

Heron spear is not powered by sorcery, the Inchies were using those weapons well before they harnessed sorcery.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Monstar

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« Reply #78 on: May 31, 2014, 05:29:08 pm »
Monstar, taking over the consult would just be another step towards an ultimate goal.  Are you suggesting that this goal is the same as the consult?

Raising the No-god means becoming a slave to it, according to the glossary.  Probably not something Kellhus would want, imo.

The False Sun was buried with Titirga.

Heron spear is not powered by sorcery, the Inchies were using those weapons well before they harnessed sorcery.

I've no idea I'm just throwing out my opinion and some possiblities.

Maybe the power struggle in the Consult is that Kellhus wants to ressurrect the No-God as he believes he can control it whereas the majority of the consult believe otherwise.

Just because the Heron spear wasn't powered by sorcery doesn't mean it can't be in future. Maybe there's a sacrifice neccesary and the mages are there to ensure that the army survives until the correct point.

mrganondorf

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« Reply #79 on: May 31, 2014, 05:56:40 pm »
I'm wondering if this will be the climax--where Kellhus releases the No-God with a plan in place to control it only to find that there was some crucial bit of data left out of his calculations.

Would also be cool if the Consult and Kellhus/Great Ordeal annihilate each other just as the No-God is resurrected, so NG is brooding in the North with no Consult to guide it.

Wilshire

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« Reply #80 on: May 31, 2014, 06:34:33 pm »
Sorry if I'm spouting garbage here but its been a while since I've read the books and while I was checking for an update on the next installment said I'd check out what the ideas were for wtf is going on.
Lots of garbage floating around here, and a good portion of it is mine, so no worries there ;) Welcome to TSA.


As far as I'm concerned what Kellhus is doing seems political but for uncertain ends possibly with the control of the consult in the balance. IIRC Kellhus had a negotiation with the Nonmen. Now where did these non-men come from and what are their goals? Didn;t Kellhus have a conversation with "the last Nonman king" (can't even remember his name now)? who said that the last fortress of non-men had decided to turn to the dark.
That conversation revealed that many Nonmen fight fro the Consult, and that nothing goes on in Ishterabinth that the Consult don't know about. The envoy, whatever his name was, didn't say explicitly that all the Nonmen fight for the Consult.
Kellhus seems to believe that they flew on their fiery chariots from Ishterebinth to him, but I suppose we don't know that for sure.


Assuming the non-men are now part of the dark side or allied to the consult this means Kallhus has promised to take a fortress back for them which has possibly been overun by the Sranc and more interestingly there may be factions within the Consult that have infighting and by returning the fortress to the non-men Kallhus gains their alliegance and gains more influence in the Consult.
I don't think there will be many Nonmen within Dagliash, though it almost certainly is overrun with sranc.
We have had no indication that there is any infighting within the Consult. They all, meaning Aurang/Aurax/Shaeonora, are all striving to save their souls by sealing Earwa off from the Outside.

Nonman make mercurial allies. They seem to flip sides whenever it suits them. Mercenaries to be paid with the coin of atrocities with which they can make memories. Kellhus is likely trying to convince them that he will be the winner of this war with the Consult, and thus turn them to his side. The last thing he wants is a cabal of Quya showing up and trying to kill him.


Assuming this is true then it would be fair to say that Kellhus wants control of the Consult, why though? IMO to resurrect the No-God of which he would then possibly have control or even become. This could be the reason for infighting between the consult as none of them can agree who is to ascend. At the very least he may have a belief that resurrecting the No-God would stop him from being damned.
I can see two paths here for Kellhus, depending on what he truly is or what his motivations are.

Path number 1: Kellhus is a Dunyain.
He wants nothing but to dominate all circumstancts. Like with the Holy War from PoN, he found that unless he controls everything, he himself is being controlled. In order to be a self-moving soul, the Dunyain's only purpose, he must control everything. Women, Men, Nonmen, Consult, and even the Gods. The Consult are just part of his plan, and he will use them to transend the cycle of before and after.

Path number 2: Kellhus is not a Dunyain.
Kellhus is fighting the Consult to save the world. He has decided that in order to do this, he must stop the Consult from sealing off Earwa from the Outside, which involves the wholesale slaughter of nearly every Man, Woman, and Child. This is unacceptable to him, and he seeks to destroy the Consult.


There are a few possiblities as well that cropped up in my mind first among them is that Kallhus is Shaeonanra either resurrected or suffered temporarily from amnesia. It would explain why he had a Father if he was reborn. It may be that Kallhus up to a point had no idea who he was. As of yet Shaeonanra has seemingly had no direct involvement in the events in the books. From what is mentioned of his ability and power it seems like he single handedly could destroy the entire "crusade" other than Kallhus of course.

Interesting idea, but I don't see much support for it in the text.
Also, I don't think anyone, even Kellhus, could solo destroy the Mandate and the Swayali. The Consult will need something far more powerful than brute-force sorcery to take them out. Shae is powerful and intelligent, but I doubt he is stronger than even a handful of the Gnostic school(wo)men, let alone the fact that there are at least 2 meta-gnosic wielders not counting Kellhus.

Maybe the Dunyain are related to the Consult as the whole logic and end goal thing really seams eerily similar to both.
The Dunyain have been shrouded in mystery since the beginning. We are going to learn a lot about them in TUC.

Also if Kallhus is Shaeonanra and has been reborn several times it may be due due to this that he has memories of a Dunyain upbringing.
Not likely. Shae is absolutely terrified of the Outside. In my opinion, he wouldn't risk being reborn for fear that his soul would get stuck in the Outside.

Of course there is the possibility Kallhus is the No-God's avatar and again did not know it up to a certain point. This would make some sense given the deficiencies of his children. Also his apparent lack of emotion also is similar to the No-God. Heck Kallhus could have taken over the first crusade to look for the Heron Spear and remove it as an obstacle.
The idea is possible, and many people think that Kellhus is/will be the new No-God. I just don't see how birth defects in his children or lack of emotion are clues. His father also had defective children, so it is far more likely that this points to something strange with either the Dunyain blood, or more specifically the bloodline of the Anasurimbor's. As for emotions, again, none of the Dunyain seem to exibit many emotions, and on top of that, the No-God showed us nothing so far except questions, it may or may not have emotions (hard to say either way with its own POV).
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 12:37:50 pm by Wilshire »
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #81 on: May 31, 2014, 07:52:03 pm »
Wilshire/Monstar got me thinking that maybe Kellhus is a defective but so subtle that he accidentally passed through the Dunyain filters!

Alia

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« Reply #82 on: June 01, 2014, 07:56:56 am »
I'm wondering if this will be the climax--where Kellhus releases the No-God with a plan in place to control it only to find that there was some crucial bit of data left out of his calculations.

Somehow sounds too... banal. This is one very popular trope around (Wagner's "Bloodstone" is but one example) and I suppose Bakker will surprise us.
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Monstar

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« Reply #83 on: June 02, 2014, 01:37:18 pm »
I can see two paths here for Kellhus, depending on what he truly is or what his motivations are.

Path number 1: Kellhus is a Dunyain.
He wants nothing but to dominate all circumstancts. Like with the Holy War from PoN, he found that unless he controls everything, he himself is being controlled. In order to be a self-moving soul, the Dunyain's only purpose, he must control everything. Women, Men, Nonmen, Consult, and even the Gods. The Consult are just part of his plan, and he will use them to transend the cycle of before and after.


Interesting point, maybe he sees the only way he can control the No-God is by bringing him to full consciousness or eliminating it. Consult obviously don't want that to happen so he has to go to war.

mrganondorf

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« Reply #84 on: July 03, 2014, 04:05:34 am »
If Kellhus is interested in doing anything about the goddamn sranc problem then he MUST bring back the No-God.  That's the only way to get them all in one spot or whatever.  Kellhus controls the No-God, the No-God orders all the sranc into the sea.  If Kellhus still serves the Dunyain, this could be a real goal for him.  The sranc problem isn't going to go away and will disturb any sanctuary eventually.

Wilshire

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« Reply #85 on: July 23, 2014, 12:40:31 pm »
Yeah thats a pretty good point. No way to erraticate them unless you are sure you kill every last one, and the only way to do that is to get them all to the same place. I feel that a small pocket of wild sranc left untouched could reinfect all Earwa in a short amount of time.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #86 on: September 03, 2014, 03:47:57 am »
It is an interesting thought, the Consult having internal divisions and power struggles. However if they do, I doubt it's over who gets to ascend to be the No-God. I don't think being the No-God is a pleasant experience. Consider that the one time we've seen it, rather than exulting in its power  or imminent triumph, all it could do was scream "WHAT DO YOU SEE?" and beg someone to tell it what it was.

The No-God, if it feels anything at all, is probably an extremely confused, tormented creature that may or may not even be self aware in the way humans or Cunuroi or Inchoroi are.

Wilshire

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« Reply #87 on: September 09, 2014, 01:02:47 am »
Feeling bad for the NG seems ridiculous, and also potentially plausible. This kind of fits the whole thing with the Inchoroi maybe not being so bad, or that no matter the atrocity, one might still feel for the one baring the whip.
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