Whenever Achamian asked him why he continued to march on Shimeh when the Fanim were no more than a distraction, he always said, “If I’m to succeed my brother, I must reclaim his house.”
H., I believe Kellhus is referring to Inri Sejenus there.
Strangely enough, the Dreams themselves had become more bearable. Tywanrae and Dagliash continued to predominate, though as always he couldn’t fathom why they should follow this or any other rhythm of events. They were like swallows, swooping and circling in aimless patterns, sketching something almost, yet never quite, a language.
Nothing, Achamian had long ago decided, was quite so dangerous as boredom in the absence of scruples.
Achamian notes two dreams in particular manifest while teaching Kellhus, and notes that he can almost see the pattern of their dreams:QuoteStrangely enough, the Dreams themselves had become more bearable. Tywanrae and Dagliash continued to predominate, though as always he couldn’t fathom why they should follow this or any other rhythm of events. They were like swallows, swooping and circling in aimless patterns, sketching something almost, yet never quite, a language.
We touched on Daliash in the last thread, the battle at Tywanrae fords was a huge defeat in the First Apocalypse, due to Akssersia relying only on Chorae alone to combat the Consult's sorcerers. In the first book, Simas analogizes this battle to what would happen if Maithanet called a Holy War against the Fanim, as they were unaware of the object of the Holy War and the Scarlet Spires' involvement at that point. If the dreams are warnings, it might suggest there will be no sorcerers who can match Kellhus, repeating what happened at Tywanrae.
This is a quote I like in general but also was one of the passages that led to my Inchoroi Crash Space theory which I posted in the inverse fire thread:QuoteNothing, Achamian had long ago decided, was quite so dangerous as boredom in the absence of scruples.
As his mother would say, every man was a spy in the end, an agent of contrary interests. Every face was made of fingers...You'd think that someone as paranoid as Xerius would realize that this line of thinking was clearly foreshadowing his demise. :-)
Like Skeaos.
And the worst agitators, it was said, were brought before the Consort, never to be seen again.Kellhus playing the long game? Seems he's already setting Esmi as a villain, what the poet in TJE artfully mocks as "...the fist in our breast, the beating heart."
There were the refugees along the Herotic Way -- the very road to Shimeh! -- who were ridden down for spot by Lord Soter and his Kishyati Knights.
"...the Xiangol-eyed Jekki under Prince Nurbanu Ze, the adopted son of Lord Soter, and the first of his people to be called kjineta, or caste-noble; and the white-painted Ainoni under cold-hearted King-Regent Nurbanu Soter, Veteren of the First Holy War, renowned for his pious cruelty through the Unification Wars."
“There’s beauty—so much beauty—in what we see,” he said with mock eloquence. “But there’s truth in what we smell.”
With a shrug, Achamian gazed at the weapon, found himself captivated by the multiple ghosts that formed about the spinning blade’s axis. He had the sense of watching silver through dancing water, then …
So, I wonder if Kellhus really spoke to Seswatha? Or, was it simply a trick to get Akka to be more submissive in the face of Seswatha?
QuoteSo, I wonder if Kellhus really spoke to Seswatha? Or, was it simply a trick to get Akka to be more submissive in the face of Seswatha?
You know, I've noticed that so far we've haven't had any POV's from Kellhus and I find myself wanting to believe everything he says and that indeed he has come around to the cause of good. Or, how should I put it? That he doesn't have other plans for the Holy War, that everything he says is sincere. You have to continually remind yourself.
We humans tend to be a credulous of everything save our credulity -- something I forgot while writing the first draft of The Warrior-Prophet. Originally, my idea was to slowly 'externalize' Kellhus, to move away from his POV and show more and more of his manipulation from the outside. I'd have a wicked gleam in my eye as I wrote, thinking 'What a sneaky bastard!' But my readers kept coming back to me with things like, 'I'm so relieved Kellhus is coming around!' It turned out that Kellhus was duping them as thoroughly as he was duping the characters! They knew he wasn't trustworthy, just as we all know commercials aren't trustworthy, and yet the instinct to think 'Ah, it's OK,' is just so strong (which is why advertisers continue using the tactics they do).
This was perhaps the second greatest difficulty I had writing Kellhus: depicting him in such a way that my readers would always have a sense of the distance between his claims and his intentions. I'm still not happy with the way I resolved this problem.
I've said before, that even since my first read of TWP, I felt like there was something up with the "Kellhus-as-the-good-guy" idea. The fact that the Consult so so clearly "not good" certainly leads us to side with Kellhus, since we can say, "well, he's not as bad as them." In the end though, neither of them is "good" which always leads me to my (mostly joking) idea that the No-God is the real hero.For me, it came down to the way we tend to regard qualities like "heroic" and "good" as innate -- free of cognition. Like Colbert's "truthiness", they come from the gut. And for whatever reason, this excuses the question of motivation; "good" people are that way because they're "good".
I think it is plausible to think that perhaps Kellhus is actually working to defeat the Consult, but at the same time, achieve their same goal (minus all the murder).
I feel there is a good chance that what Kellhus wants is the sealing off of the world from the Outside, this way everything is calculable, everything is determinable and so being truly self-moving is possible.
So, I wonder if Kellhus really spoke to Seswatha? Or, was it simply a trick to get Akka to be more submissive in the face of Seswatha?
That you are being played. That you flounder in nets of your own making. The circumstances you struggle to master, Bird, have long ago mastered you. Of course you think otherwise. Like men, power stands high among your native desires. But you are a tool, as much as any Man of the Tusk.
Xinemus turned from Proyas to Achamian, as though from a lesser to a greater enemy. “He cannot heal, Akka. The Warrior-Prophet … He cannot heal.
I think it is plausible to think that perhaps Kellhus is actually working to defeat the Consult, but at the same time, achieve their same goal (minus all the murder).
I feel there is a good chance that what Kellhus wants is the sealing off of the world from the Outside, this way everything is calculable, everything is determinable and so being truly self-moving is possible.
Essentially, make a meaningful world, meaningless. ;)
ETA: it then makes plenty of sense as to why Kellhus would want the Tekne.
QuoteXinemus turned from Proyas to Achamian, as though from a lesser to a greater enemy. “He cannot heal, Akka. The Warrior-Prophet … He cannot heal.
This is the end of Xin's outburst with Proyas, Akka and Esme. Xin comments before this about how all he smells about him is shit. And being blinded has led him to the realization that Kellhus is a fraud. Only problem.....everyone thinks him mad.
I kept wondering why Kellhus wouldn't visit Xin or try to say something to help his outlook. The truth is, Kellhus had no use for Xinemus anymore.
QuoteI kept wondering why Kellhus wouldn't visit Xin or try to say something to help his outlook. The truth is, Kellhus had no use for Xinemus anymore.
Or.....Kellhus knew that Xin would "see" through his lies. Sniff him out so to say.
The “Third Phrase” was a thing of myth in Gnostic sorcery, a story handed down to Men during the Nonman Tutelage: the legend of Su’juroit, the great Cûnuroi Witch-King. But for some reason, Achamian found himself loath to relate the tale. “No,” he lied. “It’s impossible.”
…Events from the previous evening slurred through his soul. Conphas baiting him at the gates. Conphas arguing the terms of his internment. Conphas restrained by his Generals. His cuirass glaring white in the sunlight. His long-lashed eyes.He catches himself as his remembrance veers toward a sexual fantasy, reminds himself of his manliness, and then laughs at how ridiculous it all is. Awesome stuff.
I’m…
The Scylvendi stirred in sudden remembrance, rolled his head about his massive shoulders.
I’m Cnaiur… Breaker-of-horses-and-men.
He laughed, drowsed some more, dreamed…
And Cnaiur realized ... There was no way around it: the Dunyain was looking beyond the Holy War -- past Shimeh. And to see past Shimeh was to see past Moenghus.
"You must abandon your old ways, Bird. You must strike across trackless ground. You must surrender brute circumstance to him, because in this you cannot hope to match him. Instead, you must watch. Wait. You must become a student of opportunity."
Kellhus did a interesting thing with the Mandate, he tricked Akka to not telling them of his presences until he had enough to bargin with them as equals. Kellhus may do the same thing with the Consult. He could show up at Golgotterath with TGO and a ultimatum, "Ill drive the No-God and show you how its done."
Will sending dreams to someone without the Mark (Saubon), give them a Mark, since sorcery is being used? Like how the Pragmas said they were unclean and committed suicide (which I don't buy).
Are they described as "Pragma" or just the brethren that Moe knew?
Stopping Moe from being able to communicate again. As everyone he knew in Ishual is now dead.Might be an answer. Which raises questions of it's own. Moe i think continually kept calling them, that's why they had a protocol to meet etc.
Distant figures filed between the battlements before disappearing behind stone—the elder Dûnyain abandoning their vigil. They would wind down the mighty staircases, Kellhus knew, and one by one enter the darkness of the Thousand Thousand Halls, the great Labyrinth that wheeled through the depths beneath Ishuäl. There they would die, as had been decided. All those his father had polluted.
Will sending dreams to someone without the Mark (Saubon), give them a Mark, since sorcery is being used? Like how the Pragmas said they were unclean and committed suicide (which I don't buy).
kellhus could have been conditioned to receive dreams as a sorcerer receives dreams, he just doesn't know it. And no one other than kellhus had to actually receive dreams, they just had to agree with kellhus that they had received dreams as well and he believed them. :)Will sending dreams to someone without the Mark (Saubon), give them a Mark, since sorcery is being used? Like how the Pragmas said they were unclean and committed suicide (which I don't buy).
Based on that's presented in the text, Anagogic/Gnostic calling is only between Sorcerers (the Caller and Compas). The only example of calling between a Sorcerer and a non-sorcerer is the case with Moenghus and the Dunyain.
The likely explanation is that the metaphysics of the Psukhe allow for making a different sort of connection. Or that it's an authorial inconsistency -- it happens right in the beginning and I could imagine things having shifted by the time we get the Compass/Caller explanation in TTT.
The more fun answer, of course, is that the Dunyain contacted by Moenghus were actually Sorcerers themselves.
The meeting between Cnaiür and the synthese is particularly important. I think that Aurang does actually come to realize that they have been played with this Holy War at this point.
Small tidbits from Chapter 4:QuoteAs his mother would say, every man was a spy in the end, an agent of contrary interests. Every face was made of fingers...You'd think that someone as paranoid as Xerius would realize that this line of thinking was clearly foreshadowing his demise. :-)
Like Skeaos.
Ironsoul is referred to as "Lord Kosoter" several times in TJE. But as themerchant wrote, Lord Soter is mentioned in WLW:Quote"...the Xiangol-eyed Jekki under Prince Nurbanu Ze, the adopted son of Lord Soter, and the first of his people to be called kjineta, or caste-noble; and the white-painted Ainoni under cold-hearted King-Regent Nurbanu Soter, Veteren of the First Holy War, renowned for his pious cruelty through the Unification Wars."
It's not inconceivable that they're related. But definitely different dudes.
Chapter 6:QuoteWith a shrug, Achamian gazed at the weapon, found himself captivated by the multiple ghosts that formed about the spinning blade’s axis. He had the sense of watching silver through dancing water, then …
So, I wonder if Kellhus really spoke to Seswatha? Or, was it simply a trick to get Akka to be more submissive in the face of Seswatha?
I've said before, that even since my first read of TWP, I felt like there was something up with the "Kellhus-as-the-good-guy" idea. The fact that the Consult so so clearly "not good" certainly leads us to side with Kellhus, since we can say, "well, he's not as bad as them." In the end though, neither of them is "good" which always leads me to my (mostly joking) idea that the No-God is the real hero.For me, it came down to the way we tend to regard qualities like "heroic" and "good" as innate -- free of cognition. Like Colbert's "truthiness", they come from the gut. And for whatever reason, this excuses the question of motivation; "good" people are that way because they're "good".
In Kellhus' case, however, we know that these qualities are the result of calculation. Which totally calls his motivation into question; every "bad" thing he does seems extra-wicked and every "good" thing is sinister, suspect.
Like H says, we root for him despite all this because he can't possibly be worse than the Consult, right?
Essentially, make a meaningful world, meaningless. ;)
Essentially, make a meaningful world, meaningless. ;)
A couple quotes that I found interesting.QuoteThat you are being played. That you flounder in nets of your own making. The circumstances you struggle to master, Bird, have long ago mastered you. Of course you think otherwise. Like men, power stands high among your native desires. But you are a tool, as much as any Man of the Tusk.
Cnaüir is a very smart man, even though he is bonkers he has gained so much insight from his time with the Dunyain. I was reading a thread about the most reliable POV, and while Cnaüir might be crazy, his insight about the world around him seems to strike true so very often to me.QuoteXinemus turned from Proyas to Achamian, as though from a lesser to a greater enemy. “He cannot heal, Akka. The Warrior-Prophet … He cannot heal.
This is the end of Xin's outburst with Proyas, Akka and Esme. Xin comments before this about how all he smells about him is shit. And being blinded has led him to the realization that Kellhus is a fraud. Only problem.....everyone thinks him mad.
Particularly important to note that Kellhus knew that Akka lied when he said no. He likely began devising the meta-gnosis from that instant. The first thing he requests to learn is the cant of calling - I think he was preparing the teleportation cant from this instant.QuoteThe “Third Phrase” was a thing of myth in Gnostic sorcery, a story handed down to Men during the Nonman Tutelage: the legend of Su’juroit, the great Cûnuroi Witch-King. But for some reason, Achamian found himself loath to relate the tale. “No,” he lied. “It’s impossible.”
So, the meta-Gnosis is not unprecedented, which is interesting, I wonder if the current Quya recall this.
During Conphas' ruminations on godhood in chapter 5, he concludes that "[the] famed Ikurei Conphas was not quite human." If not human, and not god, however, then what?
There are really only a handful characters in PoN who seem even partially immune to Kellhus' ability to "make us love": Moenghus, Cnauir and Conphas. And these are, not coincidentally, the folks that Kellhus sees as his greatest threats.
The first two have inside information. One is a Dunyain himself. And the other has the intellectual heft to evaluate Kellhus' actions knowing that everything he does is intentional, with purpose.
Conphas, at first blush, is your typical vainglorious villain who from his initial introduction is set up for ignominious defeat. But as the books progress, we realize that he’s not nearly as motivated by human passions as, for example, his uncle. The more we learn about Conphas, the more he resembles the sort of quasi-sociopathic “Prime Mover” that we see in Ayn Rand’s novels: he believes his own bullshit to a degree that could only be regarded as pathological.
Awfully Dunyaini, isn’t it? Which is where his “…not quite human” comment comes in.
We’re lead to believe that Dunyain-hood is part nature, part nurture. So if Conphas seems part-Dunyain, how did it happen?
Conphas was primarily nurtured by Istriya, and to a lesser degree, Martemas -- maybe even Skauras? These together lead to how he’s initially portrayed: a privileged wunderkind who is largely the product of having the best training money can buy. So I think we can rule out his Dunyain-ness coming from nurture.
This leaves nature; like Gaga, he was just “born this way.” He is Dunyain by-nature (resisting a “down wit OPP joke” here*), hence “not quite human”.
Now, it’s not inconceivable that among the millions of births since the First Apocalypse, there are a few that just happen to possess the genetic characteristics that might approach the Dunyain ideal. They selected to increase the probability of getting the right mix. But that doesn’t mean it couldn’t just happen.
The other possibility, is that Conphas is one of Moenghus’ secret other kids. And while this theory is a nice fit in some ways, it has a number of significant issues that have been discussed in detail on the board. As a result, I lean toward the former option, that he won the genetic Powerball.
Either way, I do think that there’s evidence supporting the notion that Conphas is at least partially Dunyain, which explains his immunity to Kellhus’ charms and why Kellhus sees him as the greatest threat to his post-Shimeh plans.
Part Dunyain, but sadly, mostly douchebag. Oh what could have been, Conphas?
* Other People’s Probabilities?
Agree. Layers of revelations.QuoteKellhus did a interesting thing with the Mandate, he tricked Akka to not telling them of his presences until he had enough to bargin with them as equals. Kellhus may do the same thing with the Consult. He could show up at Golgotterath with TGO and a ultimatum, "Ill drive the No-God and show you how its done."
Ever since reading TJE and learning that the final book in TAE series would be called The Unholy Consult, I've been convinced that Bakker is just being clever and using a name we're all familiar with to mask a secondary meaning for the title; namely that Kellhus has crossed the span of the world to consult with the Consult on unholy things (ie, sorcery and damnation). As it has already been said, a world closed to the Outside is certainly a better environment in which to pursue the Absolute
Why does Kellhus insist on learning a cant of calling first? Does he need to send dreams to someone immediately? I've not noticed an obvious candidate for any Kellhus-sent dreams since...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Plenty of precedence using magic on non-few people. Recall, the cant of compulsion faintly mark the victim, and the Whore's Shell marks Esmi faintly when she has it. Not to mention the obvious effects of the various war cants incinerating legions. Seems a fairly small leap to send dreams to a non-few.Will sending dreams to someone without the Mark (Saubon), give them a Mark, since sorcery is being used? Like how the Pragmas said they were unclean and committed suicide (which I don't buy).
No, I don't believe it will Mark them, since they haven't used sorcery themselves.
And on the Pragma, no, I think they killed themselves because they knew they couldn't keep the whole plan under wraps from Kellhus. Someone else would need to lie to him, he would see through them directly. That's the only way it makes sense to me, even though there are issues with that interpretation too.
Not sure, but I think its important to remember that they Mandate have a... Mandate ... to relinquish the Gnosis when the end of the world is nigh.
QuoteNot sure, but I think its important to remember that they Mandate have a... Mandate ... to relinquish the Gnosis when the end of the world is nigh.
If so then why wouldn't Kellhus have to use the trick to be able to give the Gnosis to Kellhus? I'm not so sure Kellhus actually spoke to Seswatha, but rather some trick of his to take it from Akka. Having a hard time getting across my point. But, if that was the Mandate to spread the Gnosis, then why the trouble? Because, Kellhus hasn't grasped the heart?
Don't you remember when Akka we going t I start teaching cents to Kellhus, he couldn't speak? Then the talk with Ses. What I'm saying is if that is the Mandate, to share the Gnosis, then at y would Kellhus have to intervene?
ok did the search myself, I was spot on (sorry for boasting but i've read TWP a lot)
"Hadn't Seswatha himself bid them share their arsenal before the shadow fell." is the quote no idea where in the book though, i suspect where i said though.
it's the bit where he is walking to the library with Daybreak after his argument with esmi about 45% into the book.
ok did the search myself, I was spot on (sorry for boasting but i've read TWP a lot)
"Hadn't Seswatha himself bid them share their arsenal before the shadow fell." is the quote no idea where in the book though, i suspect where i said though.
it's the bit where he is walking to the library with Daybreak after his argument with esmi about 45% into the book.
Yeah, you're right, I totally missed it before. Mainly because I was searching for "Gnosis" which isn't mentioned at all there, only on the previous paragraph.
ok did the search myself, I was spot on (sorry for boasting but i've read TWP a lot)
"Hadn't Seswatha himself bid them share their arsenal before the shadow fell." is the quote no idea where in the book though, i suspect where i said though.
it's the bit where he is walking to the library with Daybreak after his argument with esmi about 45% into the book.
Yeah, you're right, I totally missed it before. Mainly because I was searching for "Gnosis" which isn't mentioned at all there, only on the previous paragraph.
Yeah fortunately my brain had "himself bid" as the memory, and that's the only time those two appear together in the whole book, made searching a lot easier :)
The Cnaiur sections in chapter 5 confuse me. Is Cnaiur under Consult compulsion or has he consciously made an alliance with the Consult here.
What is it that is nagging him that he cannot remember? He keeps saying he thinks he's forgetting something. Is he forgetting that serwe is dead, and that he's fucking a skin spy?