Post by: TaoHorror on December 18, 2017, 04:08:44 pm
Bakker has been presenting the coming/happening of what he calls The Semantic Apocalypse on 3 Pound Brain. He’s leveraging a “Bulls-eye” approach in that medium; he’s telling you exactly what it is, that it’s happening, why and how it’s happening and his concerns about it. I think he knows he’s losing a lot of people with that discussion and he’s not surprised by it. He’s simply showing us something most ( if not all ) of the rest of us cannot see because we’ve never looked at something like this before ( or more accurately, we’ve not used our “eyes” in a way beyond what evolution has yielded us ). He’s pointing right at it, but we’re looking up, down, behind us, eyes closed, right at it but not understanding it – his “pointing”, precision, is not good enough to get us to see it.
The books are an alternative approach to showing us this Semantic Apocalypse. By using tools such as obfuscation, misdirection, inconsistency, deception and lies, he’s having us follow him through the forest to get to “it”; since the bull’s eye approach is failing him, he’s trying to jar us into understanding using a medium so many enjoy. This is why he says those who are most put off by the books are actually “getting” the story better than those of us who don’t. Which is to say, those who are pissed off with the ending of TUC, et al are actually following him to see what he sees. The rest of us not so disappointed are risking not ever getting “there” … by trusting him too much we could be cheapening the experience taking a shortcut to the destination, missing the richness of the journey ( which is designed to enhance our “sight” ) and may still not get it once we arrive. Those of us ( like myself ) who enjoy the details so much, we risk never even arriving ( wandering around the forest, following our own path, too easily amused ). He’s not a sadist, he’s getting no pleasure from this. He’s alarmed and doing his best avoiding the Casandra trap ( clairvoyance without believability ), he genuinely needs more brains on this to vet this out so we/humanity have a chance to adapt and survive it.
If you’ve read this far ( i.e. 7 books ), considering not giving up and continuing. Yes, our beloved hero is salt. Yes, there’s a lot of crazy shit that doesn’t make sense. Keep going and bring your anger/disappointment with you – we may find something of what he’s going on about together. Some of the richest insights into the work have come from the harshest critics.
Post by: MSJ on December 18, 2017, 04:42:25 pm
I have many frustrations. So, I must be getting it?
ETA: though I get the ending. Bakker need not write another book and TSA would be complete in my mind. Kellhus, might be salt, (and I'm not talking about what Bakker said), but Kellhus will be part part of th story going forward.
Post by: Redeagl on December 18, 2017, 05:01:35 pm
Post by: TaoHorror on December 18, 2017, 05:07:42 pm
Great post, TaoHorror!
I have many frustrations. So, I must be getting it?
ETA: though I get the ending. Bakker need not write another book and TSA would be complete in my mind. Kellhus, might be salt, (and I'm not talking about what Bakker said), but Kellhus will be part part of th story going forward.
Thank you, MSJ, you're kind. I agree, he could've stopped with TUC, it is an ending. But appears he has more in him and if for no other reason to get some more reveals, I think it could be worth it. It could be, "now that I've got everyone pissed off, they're ready ... "
Post by: TaoHorror on December 18, 2017, 05:08:51 pm
I still can't understand people who didn't LOVE Kellhus dying.
Well, I thoroughly enjoyed the Proyas rape scene, was looking forward to more of that ... sigh
Post by: MSJ on December 18, 2017, 05:13:33 pm
Thank you, MSJ, you're kind. I agree, he could've stopped with TUC, it is an ending. But appears he has more in him and if for no other reason to get some more reveals, I think it could be worth it. It could be, "now that I've got everyone pissed off, they're ready ... "
You won't get any qualms from me if we get more. ;)
[EDIT Madness: Quote tags.]
Post by: Dora Vee on December 18, 2017, 09:58:49 pm
Quote
I think it could be worth it. It could be, "now that I've got everyone pissed off, they're ready ... "
Really? What could /I/ possibly be ready for? I was fine with the ending. :p
Post by: TaoHorror on December 18, 2017, 10:03:21 pm
QuoteI think it could be worth it. It could be, "now that I've got everyone pissed off, they're ready ... "
Really? What could /I/ possibly be ready for? I was fine with the ending. :p
Just throwing out a possibility as to why Bakker says those who don't like the ending get the ending. Could be he's readying us to better understand his point, for which I take he'll present in the next books.
Post by: MSJ on December 18, 2017, 11:02:53 pm
Besides that, I expect that things might get muddier. Who knows, maybe he'll go all put and give us all the answers....I find it highly unlikely.
Post by: TaoHorror on December 19, 2017, 12:25:51 am
Post by: Madness on December 19, 2017, 12:22:03 pm
If you can't discuss the end of a fucking tattooed dead tree when its pages run out without name calling, neither of you have a place here.
I should have moved both posts to the Building Better Communities thread but my patience is done. If you want to discuss why I removed either of your posts, do so in that thread (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2270.0).
Post by: Redeagl on December 19, 2017, 03:06:05 pm
Lmao.I still can't understand people who didn't LOVE Kellhus dying.
Well, I thoroughly enjoyed the Proyas rape scene, was looking forward to more of that ... sigh
Post by: Dora Vee on December 20, 2017, 04:00:58 am
Too bad Kayutas was part of the ruin Proyas scheme. :(
Post by: Bolivar on December 20, 2017, 09:36:07 pm
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Post by: TaoHorror on December 20, 2017, 10:19:53 pm
I've spent too much time reading these books to take a remark like, "the people who don't like it are the ones who get it!" as anything other than rationalization.
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It has the odor of rationalization, but he did go into it a bit so maybe there's something to it. I think there is. If it is intellectual defensiveness, then I would expect him to be more open to mechanizing his story. It would be either protecting his ego or trying to drum up more dough. I don't know him, so could be ego.
Post by: MSJ on December 21, 2017, 12:43:44 am
Quote from: Bolivar
I've spent too much time reading these books to take a remark like, "the people who don't like it are the ones who get it!" as anything other than rationalization.
Seems a bit of a cop out doesn't it?
Post by: Wilshire on December 21, 2017, 01:55:51 pm
I've spent too much time reading these books to take a remark like, "the people who don't like it are the ones who get it!" as anything other than rationalization.They might get the book, but not his comment :P . Classic Bakker to explain something with a statement even more confusing.
If I had to guess, I'd say the reason behind that statement is closer to the idea that his intention wasn't to write a feel good story about love conquering evil, so those that 'get it' are the people who read the story and are disturbed by the picture painted, as it was intended to show something about human nature (or whatever it was exactly he was intending to show/do/warn - I don't claim to know).
So whatever 'the point' was/is, its supposed to be disturbing rather than comforting. In the same way, I would again guess, that Neuropath is supposed to be disturbing, as something of a warning of what might happen, so that those who 'get it' are disturbed... Maybe?
That's what I can come up with, because I really doubt he specifically spent 25 years writing a book/series so that people 'wouldn't like it'. If that was really his goal, he could have done a much worse job, and saved himself a lot of time.
Anyway, see here the dangers of overly terse/short statements. It forces people to come up with their own explanations for your words, which leads to people just confirming their own biases and invariably will lead to more confusion and other undesirable results. I think Bakker fails to understand that his words online have an impact, and this persona of overly cagey Mr. Mysterioso doesn't serve him well, and never has. IMO, probably best he stops appearing online if this is the kind of stuff he chooses to put out there.
Post by: Bolivar on January 06, 2018, 06:26:59 am
This isn't about subverting the audience's expectations, which I know is something Bakker set out to do. While the quality of writing is much higher in The Aspect Emperor, the story structure and pacing does not live up to what he accomplished with The Prince of Nothing. Every novel had an insane stand-alone story. Every main character was a completely different person at the end of each book from who they were when they started. Every chapter is momentous for the overarching plot. Assumptions you had beforehand were completely blown away. These books instead felt like they had a lot of filler and were clearly incomplete fragments of a single narrative. The Unholy Consult really had to make up for that dissatisfaction with a solid and original resolution it couldn't afford to end in essentially the same fashion the preceding novels did. Instead, saw more of the same and there are plenty of plot threads left dangling.
Post by: Wilshire on January 08, 2018, 01:45:20 pm
I don't think disappointed readers were taking issue with the dark or tragic toneI'd not try and put everyone in the same box. I definetly see a lot of people who did take issue with the fact that it didn't have a happier ending, which I find extremely surprising for the same reason you metioned - they made it this far, what did they expect?
Speaking for myself, it feels like I was waiting for a payoff that never came.This is what most people say, but there are plenty of "because reason X". Plenty of people disappointed and each of them a different reason
The story abruptly ending with the No-God's resumption wasn't satisfying to me, it was expected and derivative of what I've already seen in Akka's dreams. For the Mangeacca to be long gone, the Consult leadership already subjugated, and just more Sranc, Bashrag and Wracu at Golgotterath, it was too much stuff I had already read before and none of the surprises I had been anticipating. I really didn't like that we saw more of the Ark in the Thousandfold Thought than we did in the entry titled "The Unholy Consult."That certainly does seem to be what happened.
I do think it would have been odd for a bunch of new monsters to have been introduced right at the end, for the same reason that the Dunyain being in control seemed strange - there was little foreshadowing.
This isn't about subverting the audience's expectations, which I know is something Bakker set out to do.Just to clarify "this isn't about" refers to your dislike of the ending, not the subverting expectation itself.
While the quality of writing is much higher in The Aspect Emperor, the story structure and pacing does not live up to what he accomplished with The Prince of Nothing. Every novel had an insane stand-alone story. Every main character was a completely different person at the end of each book from who they were when they started. Every chapter is momentous for the overarching plot. Assumptions you had beforehand were completely blown away. These books instead felt like they had a lot of filler and were clearly incomplete fragments of a single narrative. The Unholy Consult really had to make up for that dissatisfaction with a solid and original resolution it couldn't afford to end in essentially the same fashion the preceding novels did. Instead, saw more of the same and there are plenty of plot threads left dangling.I didn't see that big of a difference between PoN and TAE, plot wise. They are actually very well mirrored, imo, and TTT/TUC end very similarly.
Though, for the time spent on each (ignoring the "20+ years" spent on TDTCB), I think the pacing of TAE wasn't as masterful, which is strange given how much time he spent on it. I honestly think he just spent too much time writing, editing, and rewriting, to the point that the story did suffer.
FWIW, though I do see now that it was wishful thinking, I was hoping for a lot more 'answers'. I thought there'd be a lot more world-building, rather than new mysteries. I had similar complaints with Malazan's final book Crippled God. At some point it is a story, and it does need to end, and the reader is no longer interested in new mysteries - they want the story completed.
Yes, there is another series after TAE, but to be hoping for answers is probably unwise. TTT ended like TUC, and to think that TNG will end otherwise is folly. These are the books Bakker is writing.
Post by: Madness on January 09, 2018, 06:54:35 pm
Post by: Bolivar on January 10, 2018, 03:59:21 pm
Even if I did just get completely taken down by Wilshire
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Post by: Wilshire on January 10, 2018, 04:05:29 pm
Always good to be back!
Even if I did just get completely taken down by Wilshire
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:'( .
Post by: Madness on January 10, 2018, 11:07:44 pm