Sorcery

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Wilshire

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« Reply #105 on: November 22, 2013, 07:34:59 pm »
I was reffering to scrying as what Sorweel's Mandate teacher does to look behind them and he sees the 10-yoke army.

As for your quote, I'd say Moe was far enough away to not be heard. (if Moe turns out to be special, I'm going to feel rather silly at the end of this)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 07:36:45 pm by Wilshire »
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locke

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« Reply #106 on: November 22, 2013, 08:44:12 pm »
that's silly.  Xerious hears the guards in the portico and he hears Skauros and he hears Moenghus translation.  And since Moe is talking during the scene that transpires it more or less precludes any opportunity to be singing as well.

Wilshire

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« Reply #107 on: November 22, 2013, 08:48:00 pm »
So you're suggesting that a Dunyain who has absolute control over every muscle in his body cannot whisper?

Its probably just standard practice to yell cants, but I doubt its mandatory.

« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 08:54:42 pm by Wilshire »
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Wilshire

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« Reply #108 on: November 22, 2013, 08:54:57 pm »
Sorry for the double post

Was it mentioned that the Dunyain could have escentially full conversations without uttering any words, or at least very few, by just looking at each other? I ask because this happens in one of Issac Asimov's books, so I could be getting it confused.
Whatever, if meaning can be obtained through gestures and minture muscle movements, should sorcery confine "utteral" cants to vocalized? We know that the language itself is not important, so why use language at all? I guess the Cish use emotion, which may not be confined by language, but I consider that "inutteral"
.
Anyone else think that it would be possible to have enough purity of intent/meaning to manifest the utteral component of sorcery without any language at all?


edit:
Don't have my book in front of me, are the Cish ever noted as singing? I wonder if the Psuke is all inutteral to begin with.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 09:36:19 pm by Wilshire »
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Triskele

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« Reply #109 on: November 22, 2013, 09:35:48 pm »
Sorry for the double post

Was it mentioned that the Dunyain could have escentially full conversations without uttering any words, or at least very few, by just looking at each other? I ask because this happens in one of Issac Asimov's books, so I could be getting it confused.
Whatever, if meaning can be obtained through gestures and minture muscle movements, should sorcery confine "utteral" cants to vocalized? We know that the language itself is not important, so why use language at all? I guess the Cish use emotion, which may not be confined by language, but I consider that "inutteral"

Inralatus says something to Uncle Holy along the lines of "Isn't it strange how we speak without actually speaking?" to which Maithanet replies "We're speaking now."

Wilshire

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« Reply #110 on: November 22, 2013, 09:38:44 pm »
Once I get home I'l look it up. It would either be in the beginning or in one of Kell's flashbacks I think.

But that is what I'm point towards Triskele. There is plenty of nonverbal communication that goes on in daily life, much more so to a Dunyain. Taken to an extreme enough level, like only a Dunyain could do, maybe that could actually yield sorcery.
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Cüréthañ

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« Reply #111 on: November 22, 2013, 11:09:34 pm »
Mother fucker.  I never realized that Moenghus works sorcery without an utteral component.

He is far beyond Kellhus, methinks.

Illustrates the point I've been trying to make about utterals/inutterals, the Mark and the Psukhe. 

Note that the snake's eyes flare? 

I'm also going to suggest Moe left one of his snakes with Skauras for this trick.
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Wielokropek

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« Reply #112 on: November 22, 2013, 11:33:37 pm »
Don't have my book in front of me, are the Cish ever noted as singing? I wonder if the Psuke is all inutteral to begin with.

There's no mention of the Cishaurim singing on the plains of Mengedda, though Iyokus does say that the Cishaurim use concerts when talking to Eleazeras after the battle. Perhaps he's just adopting the terminology the Scarlet Spires use to describe their own sorcery.

Similarly, I can't find any mention of words or song in regards to the Psukhe at Caraskand or anywhere in Shimeh. I'm going to go ahead and assume that the Cishaurim don't use an utteral component at all.

I'm also going to suggest Moe left one of his snakes with Skauras for this trick.

Interestingly enough, Mallahet's described as having only one snake with him when dealing with Xerius, but three snakes come to Moenghus after Kellhus stabs him. Even if he left one snake with Skauras and took another with him, what did he do with the third?

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« Reply #113 on: November 23, 2013, 01:42:32 am »
+1 on no utteral for Cishaurim. Neat idea.

Sorry for the double post

Was it mentioned that the Dunyain could have escentially full conversations without uttering any words, or at least very few, by just looking at each other? I ask because this happens in one of Issac Asimov's books, so I could be getting it confused.
Whatever, if meaning can be obtained through gestures and minture muscle movements, should sorcery confine "utteral" cants to vocalized? We know that the language itself is not important, so why use language at all? I guess the Cish use emotion, which may not be confined by language, but I consider that "inutteral"

Inralatus says something to Uncle Holy along the lines of "Isn't it strange how we speak without actually speaking?" to which Maithanet replies "We're speaking now."

If the Dunyain could ever trust one of their own - then maybe two Dunyain could communicate like Cnaiur does with Kellhus a few times through PON (some of my favorite moments in the series).

But Cnaiur is being honest with his inner sense and attempting to communicate that to Kellhus. As Inrilatas says, the words that they speak to each other are essentially devoid of data as we'd understand meaning. As soon as one Dunyain affects suspicion of another they can't help but engage in this multisensory dance whereby they are attempting to limit personal information available to another Dunyain.

I call not sorcery.

Mother fucker.  I never realized that Moenghus works sorcery without an utteral component.

He is far beyond Kellhus, methinks.
Note that the snake's eyes flare?

These two points are actually blowing my mind.

Interestingly enough, Mallahet's described as having only one snake with him when dealing with Xerius, but three snakes come to Moenghus after Kellhus stabs him. Even if he left one snake with Skauras and took another with him, what did he do with the third?

And how does Moenghus (or any Cishaurim) experience this connection? Is it like Warging?
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Wielokropek

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« Reply #114 on: November 23, 2013, 02:40:50 am »
And how does Moenghus (or any Cishaurim) experience this connection? Is it like Warging?

I'm inclined to think that a Psukari and his snake or snakes share a soul. We know that all sorcery is worked through the soul, especially so for the Cishaurim (they can have their souls removed by having their sorcery wrenched from them), and it seems like the snakes are deeply connected with at least some of the sorcery the Cishaurim practice. Moenghus' voice in the dreams he sends to the Dunyain comes out serpentine and his snake's eyes flash when he does the multi-face thing. Unfortunately, there are no other passages I'm aware of that show a connection between a Psukari's sorcery and his snakes.

Since it's always the sorcerer's eyes that light up, and Moenghus calls his snakes his eyes, I'm pretty sure that whatever metaphysical thing that happens to make a sorcerer's eyes light up happens to both the Psukari and the snakes. There's also the whole fact that the Cishaurim use the snakes to see, so the snakes' sensory input somehow has to be shared with the Cishaurim.

Ultimately, I don't think the snake and Psukari could share a point of view and both be involved in working the same sorcery if they don't share the same place, the same soul.

Even if there's no soul or sorcerous connection, Moenghus' snakes coming to him without him casting any sorcery after he'd been stabbed supports at least some sort of snake-Psukari connection.

If the Dunyain could ever trust one of their own - then maybe two Dunyain could communicate like Cnaiur does with Kellhus a few times through PON (some of my favorite moments in the series).

Makes me wonder about Ishual and how the pragma or any post-training Dunyain would talk to each other. They'd probably have to use more actual speech in the thousand thousand halls due to the general light-prohibition, but otherwise there might not be much said in Ishual at all.

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« Reply #115 on: November 23, 2013, 03:29:24 am »
All good thoughts.

I wonder at the narrative mechanism of the snakes and if it will ever be described. Come on, Meppa flashbacks of Dr. Mengele, I mean, Moenghus ;).

Makes me wonder about Ishual and how the pragma or any post-training Dunyain would talk to each other. They'd probably have to use more actual speech in the thousand thousand halls due to the general light-prohibition, but otherwise there might not be much said in Ishual at all.

I have a feeling that once the trained Dunyain are let into the Thousand Thousand Halls they commit to and engage in a battle-royale style existence.
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Triskele

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« Reply #116 on: November 23, 2013, 04:06:13 am »
Y'all are blowing my mind on the snakes.  But I must offer one bit of walk-back...the line about the asp's eyes lighting up could easily be interpreted as just the reflection of other light....it doesn't necessarily mean that sorcery rung through the snake. 

That said...why didn't Moe have his snakes with him?  I don't know why I haven't pondered this, but all of the sudden it stands out as a potentially huge moment.  Moe has been waiting for Kellhus for decades and his snakes just weren't up for it?????  Bizarre.  Is that an authorial mistake, or is there something to be gleaned from this?

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« Reply #117 on: November 23, 2013, 04:46:05 am »
I always thought in TTT, Moe's snakes were around the chamber giving him effective 360deg vision.  Trying to compensate tactically as 'twere.
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locke

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« Reply #118 on: November 23, 2013, 09:09:03 am »
Y'all are blowing my mind on the snakes.  But I must offer one bit of walk-back...the line about the asp's eyes lighting up could easily be interpreted as just the reflection of other light....it doesn't necessarily mean that sorcery rung through the snake. 

That said...why didn't Moe have his snakes with him?  I don't know why I haven't pondered this, but all of the sudden it stands out as a potentially huge moment.  Moe has been waiting for Kellhus for decades and his snakes just weren't up for it?????  Bizarre.  Is that an authorial mistake, or is there something to be gleaned from this?

Lull Kellhus into a false sense of security, and deny Kellhus data of how Moenghus and his snakes interact.  If Moenghus does not have perfect control over the snakes they may betray his emotions to Kellhus.

My crackpot would say that Moenghus lured Kellhus into dying exactly where Moe wanted to die, at the bottom of a great pit at the bottom of a great non man mansion, a mansion know to be a place of direct ascension to heaven.  Perhaps it was an analogue to the Great Medial Screw and Kellhus ignorantly provides everything just right for Moe to ascend heaven and skip out on his damnation fate.

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« Reply #119 on: November 23, 2013, 02:19:13 pm »
Lol - that's pretty much been a major nerdanel of mine as well, lockesnow, added that the Cishaurim (people believing in Moenghus) were being slaughtered at the same time.

But my weigh in on Moenghus not having the snakes (sweet sejenus, when did we stop talking about sorcery ;)) is that he knew everything that was going to happen before it happened. Maybe the snakes returned to him because his portion of its will is gone?
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