Cishaurim

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The Sharmat

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« Reply #120 on: September 07, 2014, 07:12:55 pm »
I think there's something when Mallahet first shows up in Momemn with his snakes finding and tracking the chorae bearing bowmen in the chamber, so it may be possible they can "see" them. But there's nothing concrete, no. We never get a Cishaurim point of view.

Given that they see the Mark as other sorcerors do though, I think it's a good assumption they could sense the absence of the Chorae.

Triskele

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« Reply #121 on: September 07, 2014, 10:15:22 pm »
I think there's something when Mallahet first shows up in Momemn with his snakes finding and tracking the chorae bearing bowmen in the chamber, so it may be possible they can "see" them. But there's nothing concrete, no. We never get a Cishaurim point of view.

Given that they see the Mark as other sorcerors do though, I think it's a good assumption they could sense the absence of the Chorae.

Yeah, that's possibly suggestive but hardly proof.   

We don't fully understand the relationship between the snakes and the Cish user, but it's possible that someone like Moe would just want to use his snakes to scope out the scene where chorae bowman would presumably be positioned.  That is to say I could see how this scene could play out without it necessarily be because the Cishaurim in question feels the pinprick of the chorae the way other sorcerers do. 

The Sharmat

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« Reply #122 on: September 08, 2014, 12:52:14 am »
Yes, that's certainly possible too. I don't think there's anything definitive either way. I personally lean towards "they can sense them" but it's far from a certainty.

Triskele

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« Reply #123 on: September 08, 2014, 04:12:16 am »
Yes, that's certainly possible too. I don't think there's anything definitive either way. I personally lean towards "they can sense them" but it's far from a certainty.

Thanks, and it's probably obvious where I'm going with this, but I'm wondering if there could be yet another bit of evidence (or textual lack thereof in this example) that the Cish are different from other sorcerers.

I'm still sort of fascinated by it.  It is clearly not mechanical like the Tekne, but it's also clearly something different than the rest of what we're dealing with in the rest of the sorcery in the series. 

The Sharmat

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« Reply #124 on: September 08, 2014, 02:20:25 pm »
It's a shame we've never gotten the point of view of anyone that uses the Psukhe. I don't like having to rely entirely on inferences that may or may not be correct from Kellhus that he has shared with other people for what may or may not have been honest reasons.

Wic

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« Reply #125 on: September 08, 2014, 04:23:01 pm »
I suspect that never getting a POV from a Cish is deliberate, but I'll skim through TJE and WLW to see if Meppa ever gives an indication that he is one of the Few.

In Kell and Moe's conversation when they describe each other's paths through the world, neither of them bring up Moe being one of the Few (they mention him being sent off, as a brilliant mind and interpreter of the Kipfa'aifan, to the Cish, but that's it).

Personally, I think it's not the sorcerers, but the practice, that separates them from the other Schools.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #126 on: September 08, 2014, 04:53:11 pm »
Of the two children of Moenghus that survived to adulthood, both were of the few though. That's not enough on its own to prove anything, but it makes it much more likely that he carries the same genetic potential that makes all other sorcery possible.

Wic

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« Reply #127 on: September 08, 2014, 07:29:34 pm »
True.  And while only one of Kell's children actually became a sorcerer, I strongly suspect Kayutas is of the Few but there's a reason Kell prevents him from being marked.  Theliopa and Kelmomas, in my mind, almost certainly are of the few (although given Thelli's sociopathy, it's kind of strange that he wouldn't make her into a witch, as surely that disconnection would make her very capable).

BUT, because this is a genetic argument, we don't know if all of this is purely by blood, or simply a result of their honest/self-aware neurology.

Discussed further here: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1064.0
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 07:31:15 pm by Wic »

The Sharmat

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« Reply #128 on: September 08, 2014, 07:33:32 pm »
There were strong implications that at least in the Nonmen sorcery was primarily genetic.

And Kelmomas/Samarmas (one or both, since they share the same body and all) is definitely one of the Few. He sees the wards about the Andiamine heights.

Wic

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« Reply #129 on: September 08, 2014, 07:44:36 pm »
Hell, I've missed that.  Unless - are you talking about when he realizes there's been a 'shadow' structure, within the Heights?

The Sharmat

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« Reply #130 on: September 08, 2014, 07:49:46 pm »
Hell, I've missed that.  Unless - are you talking about when he realizes there's been a 'shadow' structure, within the Heights?
No, that's not it. He explicitly identifies them as sorcerous wards. Not a lot of attention is called to it in the text so it's easy to miss. I believe it's when he's sneaking out to perform that murder, but could be misremembering.

mrganondorf

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« Reply #131 on: September 09, 2014, 11:16:53 am »
Yes Kelmomas is few!  I'm hoping he becomes the last student of the last Cishaurim what with all his passion and intellect being so high up.  He would make for a cool deranged savior of humanity a couple decades hence.

If Theliopia and the crazy one are like the preborn Alia, they could be concealing the gift of the few.  Theliopia has got some big surprise on the way, its too dunyain to act so weak.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #132 on: September 09, 2014, 02:30:58 pm »
Kelmomas as deranged God-Emperor wielding some sort of hyper-psukhe in the latter days of the apocalypse as compared with Kellhus' more rational rule employing the meta-gnosis would be cool

themerchant

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« Reply #133 on: September 09, 2014, 03:32:10 pm »
Yes Kelmomas is few!  I'm hoping he becomes the last student of the last Cishaurim what with all his passion and intellect being so high up.  He would make for a cool deranged savior of humanity a couple decades hence.

If Theliopia and the crazy one are like the preborn Alia, they could be concealing the gift of the few.  Theliopia has got some big surprise on the way, its too dunyain to act so weak.

Yeah i don't believe Theliopia is as skittish as she makes out.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #134 on: September 09, 2014, 03:36:46 pm »
Is she supposed to be skittish or does she just have a serious stutter?