The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: profgrape on February 07, 2017, 04:36:49 pm

Title: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: profgrape on February 07, 2017, 04:36:49 pm
In the author Q&A, RSB wrote this:

Quote
[...]the boundaries between the World and the Outside can also wear then with individuals, and not simply places. Those souls that are too strong to eat, that go on to become Ciphrang, sometimes begin the transition before they kick the bucket.

This begs the question: how does one develop a soul that's "too strong to eat"?

We have a couple examples of souls that seem to be on the verge of becoming Ciphrang; Kosoter, perhaps, and almost certainly, Cnauir.   This suggests that a "strong" soul is one that's committed numerous, horrible acts of violence.  But wouldn't his imply that those who are more damned are also better positioned for power in the hellish afterlife? 

As a side question, can good acts cause one to be "too strong to eat", perhaps leading to one become an angelic Ciphrang?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: Wilshire on February 07, 2017, 05:35:41 pm
Indomitable will is also a common trait between those two. Or should I say indomitable conviction ;) . Maybe its a combination of both?

By that logic, either Will or Evil, seems there might be a good handful of Dunyain ciphrang-gods out there? Also, Conphas?

 Most head's of major Nations/States might qualify for that if . Harweel. Psatma.

But, yes, the linchpin of the discussion is 'how'.

I like 'good'/'altruistic'/'moral' as leading to angelic Ciphrang :). Amusing that none are around though, eh? Earwa isn't a nice place.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: profgrape on February 07, 2017, 06:39:03 pm
Indomitable will is also a common trait between those two. Or should I say indomitable conviction ;) . Maybe its a combination of both?

By that logic, either Will or Evil, seems there might be a good handful of Dunyain ciphrang-gods out there? Also, Conphas?

 Most head's of major Nations/States might qualify for that if . Harweel. Psatma.

But, yes, the linchpin of the discussion is 'how'.

I like 'good'/'altruistic'/'moral' as leading to angelic Ciphrang :). Amusing that none are around though, eh? Earwa isn't a nice place.

Whatever it is, it has to be rare, right?  Maybe conviction that is entirely self-motivated?  Meaning if your conviction was inspired by a Wordly agent (like Kellhus), it wouldn't strengthen your soul.  But if it was a self-moving quality, it did?

Another interesting thread: if strong souls can become Ciphrang, does that also mean they, like the Gods, see all of time simultaneously?  I'm wondering if the person who Kellhus sees in his visions is his Ciphrang-self.  Maybe the Ciphrang-self is the "head on a pole", a soul so strong that it's somehow anchored in the Outside?

Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: Wilshire on February 07, 2017, 06:57:59 pm
Definetly rare. Self-moving in some way seems like a good idea, nice and discriminating, otherwise there would be too many big outside entities.

Also I imagine it as one of those games were you start out as a small creature, and can eat everything that's smaller than you, each thing you eat you become bigger. Meanwhile, everything else follows the same rules. So, even a 'big' soul is relative. Maybe big enough to consume the scraps left over by the huge ciphrang-gods. The longer you live and survive in the outside, the more power you gain. Then you get so big you can start to exert some kind of local objective-subjective reality time/space. Bigger and bigger, until you can rip through the barrier into the Inside and influence people via dreams, send avatars, etc...

Another interesting thread: if strong souls can become Ciphrang, does that also mean they, like the Gods, see all of time simultaneously?  I'm wondering if the person who Kellhus sees in his visions is his Ciphrang-self.  Maybe the Ciphrang-self is the "head on a pole", a soul so strong that it's somehow anchored in the Outside?

Depends on what the Gods are. I maintain that they are just bigger Ciphrang, so I would say yes, they get the collapsed-time-sense thing.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: profgrape on February 07, 2017, 07:09:59 pm
Depends on what the Gods are. I maintain that they are just bigger Ciphrang, so I would say yes, they get the collapsed-time-sense thing.

Yes, the way they're described in TGO, "Other Sons", makes it sound like the Gods are just uber-Ciphrang. 

Quote
[...]where he has always hidden, always watched, where Other Sons, recline, drinking from bowls that are skies, savouring the moaning broth of the Countless[...]

That sure fits with what Wilshire describes, that the Gods are just those who receive the greatest portion of souls.  Also very interesting that the narrator has "always" been there -- lends weight to the idea that Kellhus is/has a powerful, perhaps even God-like, Ciphrang.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: H on February 07, 2017, 07:51:22 pm
Well, even if the gods are similar to Ciphrang in function, they must be different since they never lived, right?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: profgrape on February 07, 2017, 07:55:40 pm
Well, even if the gods are similar to Ciphrang in function, they must be different since they never lived, right?
Did RSB confirm that the Gods never lived?  It rings a bell but I can't remember the specifics. Also, if he did confirm, he might just be being cute about the definition of 'lived', I.e. the soul predates the living being and thus, the Gods/Ciphrang were never alive as humans are alive.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: H on February 07, 2017, 08:50:01 pm
Well, I mean I draw that inference from the 100 being fractures of the God of Gods.  If they lived, then when were they mortal?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: Madness on February 07, 2017, 09:36:59 pm
I believe in one of Pat's Fantasy Hotlist interviews he says Ciphrang have never lived in the world... though, it would seem his more recent comments refute that.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: themerchant on February 07, 2017, 10:26:57 pm
I think he said something like belong entirely to the outside.

Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: profgrape on February 07, 2017, 10:45:30 pm
Ok, time to get really crazy:

Let's imagine that souls in the Outside are ranked on a continuum of 1-10, where a 1-soul is effectively dormant and a 10-soul is an uber-Ciphrang or a God.

When someone is born in the World, a 1-soul is associated with their physical body.  The soul doesn't *inhabit* the physical body.  Rather it stays in the Outside and is linked to the physical body. 

Over the course of a person's life, their soul grows, perhaps according to their sin.  And when they die, the link is severed and their mature soul is adrift in the Outside to be consumed by the most powerful souls.  As the soul is consumed, it regresses back to a 1-soul, at which point it's once against available to be associated with a newborn.

To put it another way, life on Earwa only exists to fatten up a soul to be consumed after death.

It might be that it's possible for some rare souls to exceed a threshhold, let's say, 7-soul, at which point, they become too strong to be consumed after death.  These souls are powerful enough, in fact, that they become agents in the Outside -- Ciphrang.

With this kind of scheme, souls don't have the concept of life and death, rather, they belong entirely to the Outside.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: H on February 08, 2017, 06:57:12 pm
I believe in one of Pat's Fantasy Hotlist interviews he says Ciphrang have never lived in the world... though, it would seem his more recent comments refute that.

I couldn't find that.  However, he does allude to angelic Chiphrang, that only the "demonic" ones can be summoned.  So, it would seem there are a couple options for your soul upon dying:

If you are "good" and strong, you become an "Angelic" Ciphrang.
If you are "evil" and strong, you become a "demonic" Chiphrang.
If you are "good" but weak, you get saved by a god. (Maybe?)
If you are "evil" but weak, you get eaten by a god. (Damnation is food?)

What it means to have a strong or weak soul though, I am totally unsure.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: profgrape on February 08, 2017, 07:18:05 pm
I believe in one of Pat's Fantasy Hotlist interviews he says Ciphrang have never lived in the world... though, it would seem his more recent comments refute that.

I couldn't find that.  However, he does allude to angelic Chiphrang, that only the "demonic" ones can be summoned.  So, it would seem there are a couple options for your soul upon dying:

If you are "good" and strong, you become an "Angelic" Ciphrang.
If you are "evil" and strong, you become a "demonic" Chiphrang.
If you are "good" but weak, you get saved by a god. (Maybe?)
If you are "evil" but weak, you get eaten by a god. (Damnation is food?)

What it means to have a strong or weak soul though, I am totally unsure.

That seems like a reasonable soul-sorting scheme, H.  The only thing I'm wondering is whether *any* souls are actually saved?  I might be way off-base with this.  But TGO left me thinking that while there are degrees of damnation, everyone ultimately ends up in the lake of fire.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: H on February 08, 2017, 07:33:10 pm
That seems like a reasonable soul-sorting scheme, H.  The only thing I'm wondering is whether *any* souls are actually saved?  I might be way off-base with this.  But TGO left me thinking that while there are degrees of damnation, everyone ultimately ends up in the lake of fire.

I'm in the same boat, if not damned by one, you'd be damned by another.

I think the Nonmen had the right of it all by trying to avoid the whole thing altogether.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: profgrape on February 08, 2017, 08:29:44 pm
That seems like a reasonable soul-sorting scheme, H.  The only thing I'm wondering is whether *any* souls are actually saved?  I might be way off-base with this.  But TGO left me thinking that while there are degrees of damnation, everyone ultimately ends up in the lake of fire.

I'm in the same boat, if not damned by one, you'd be damned by another.

I think the Nonmen had the right of it all by trying to avoid the whole thing altogether.

Cool -- wasn't sure whether that idea was broadly accepted or not.  The whole "granary/bread" thing just makes me imagine life on Earwa as nothing more than a way to produce juicier souls for the Gods.  And the Judging Eye is like Yelp for souls; showing which ones will be the best to eat.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: H on February 08, 2017, 08:35:38 pm
Cool -- wasn't sure whether that idea was broadly accepted or not.  The whole "granary/bread" thing just makes me imagine life on Earwa as nothing more than a way to produce juicier souls for the Gods.  And the Judging Eye is like Yelp for souls; showing which ones will be the best to eat.

I mean, I don't know that it's correct though.  Maybe if one is super-devoted to a god, you might be able to spare yourself.  Like, I would imagine Psatma got redeemed by Yatwer.  But I wonder why the gods would even bother to reward devotion if damnation is what they feed on?  Shouldn't they just want everyone damned in that case?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: profgrape on February 08, 2017, 09:28:51 pm
Cool -- wasn't sure whether that idea was broadly accepted or not.  The whole "granary/bread" thing just makes me imagine life on Earwa as nothing more than a way to produce juicier souls for the Gods.  And the Judging Eye is like Yelp for souls; showing which ones will be the best to eat.

I mean, I don't know that it's correct though.  Maybe if one is super-devoted to a god, you might be able to spare yourself.  Like, I would imagine Psatma got redeemed by Yatwer.  But I wonder why the gods would even bother to reward devotion if damnation is what they feed on?  Shouldn't they just want everyone damned in that case?

What if both devotion AND sin end up feeding damnation?  It's not the character of the deed, it's the 'conviction' (to borrow Wilshire's suggestion from above) that matters.  So even people who do great deeds of good are only serving to fatten up their souls for the Gods?

That's about as Grimdark as you can get.  The best thing to do is to be a slave, have absolutely *no* agency whatsoever.  Like Serwe, perhaps?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: H on February 09, 2017, 12:13:19 pm
What if both devotion AND sin end up feeding damnation?  It's not the character of the deed, it's the 'conviction' (to borrow Wilshire's suggestion from above) that matters.  So even people who do great deeds of good are only serving to fatten up their souls for the Gods?

That's about as Grimdark as you can get.  The best thing to do is to be a slave, have absolutely *no* agency whatsoever.  Like Serwe, perhaps?

That seems possible.  If your soul is a ledger, the more entries the better?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: profgrape on February 09, 2017, 04:30:12 pm
What if both devotion AND sin end up feeding damnation?  It's not the character of the deed, it's the 'conviction' (to borrow Wilshire's suggestion from above) that matters.  So even people who do great deeds of good are only serving to fatten up their souls for the Gods?

That's about as Grimdark as you can get.  The best thing to do is to be a slave, have absolutely *no* agency whatsoever.  Like Serwe, perhaps?

That seems possible.  If your soul is a ledger, the more entries the better?

Probably unrelated.  But it mirrors the rules for the Dolour; "heroic" souls (more entries) succumb sooner.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: H on February 09, 2017, 05:13:36 pm
Probably unrelated.  But it mirrors the rules for the Dolour; "heroic" souls (more entries) succumb sooner.

True, but the separation between Weal and Dolour and then the fall into Erraticism seems more about memory than about the soul.  Indeed, it seems that indeed, this is what  forced the Nonmen from Being to Becoming and what opened them back to Damnation.  Honestly, the whole thing confuses me, I've needed to dig deeper into the Nonman Philosophy post TGO and haven't gotten a chance yet.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: MSJ on February 09, 2017, 10:06:56 pm
My clipboard isn't wanting to work at the moment so I'm not going to quote, but Koringhus tells what is holy when he discovers the JE. Ignorance, blindness, surrender, forfeiture and loss. Sound like anyone? Serwe. That's why Bakker said that she was a sort of cipher for the books. She isn't damned as Kellhus told Proyas. Her ignorance, her loss all of that made her holy. I'd imagine if Mimara could've looked upon her she would have been wreathed in Gold. Also, in TJE we hear over and over that what makes Sorweel a perfect vessel for Yatwer is his ignorance. Now, it's all so confusing. Because, I assume what Koringhus found out got him out of Damnation. Yet, that same ignorance makes Sorweel the perfect vessel for Yatwer, ergo a Ciphrang anyway you slice it. So count me as confused as hell. I'm just starting to believe that 99.9999% of people on Earwa are damned. Just how it works.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: H on February 10, 2017, 11:25:29 am
As it should be though, right?

I mean, we don't make granaries that allow the wheat to simply get away?  Some might here or there, but by and large, the granary does what it is supposed to do: store it for consumption.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: profgrape on February 16, 2017, 04:09:33 pm
A couple of riffs on the idea that bodies don't *have* souls, rather, they are connected to souls in the Outside:

The process of "going" to the Outside might just be a matter of seeing through your connected soul's perspective.  So Daimotic sorcerers don't *go* to the Outside, they just travel up the connection and peer through through their soul.

So the "head on a pole behind you" is Kellhus' physical body as seen from the perspective of his soul in Outside!

Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: H on February 16, 2017, 04:18:57 pm
A couple of riffs on the idea that bodies don't *have* souls, rather, they are connected to souls in the Outside:

The process of "going" to the Outside might just be a matter of seeing through your connected soul's perspective.  So Daimotic sorcerers don't *go* to the Outside, they just travel up the connection and peer through through their soul.

So the "head on a pole behind you" is Kellhus' physical body as seen from the perspective of his soul in Outside!

Indeed, this was part of geoffrobro's theory that was on a LostCast.  Indeed, in TGO it is mentioned:

"And he sees, though his eyes have rolled into his brow."

When Kellhus is walking in the Outside.  I cribbed his theory before, but I can't recall where I posted it though.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: themerchant on February 16, 2017, 04:43:15 pm
Wonder how he physically got the heads then? If he went to the outside in spirit.

Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: H on February 16, 2017, 05:06:33 pm
Wonder how he physically got the heads then? If he went to the outside in spirit.

Kellhus knows the Daimos.  He learned it from Iyokus during the Unification Wars and that is when he got the Decapitants.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: profgrape on February 16, 2017, 05:08:14 pm
Wonder how he physically got the heads then? If he went to the outside in spirit.



Could have summoned them a la Zioz and the others from TTT.

Extending the notion of viewing the Outside through your soul, I wonder if this is along the lines of what the Inverse Fire does.  Consider this line from TFS:

Quote
All Men wailed. All Men burned all the time. They need only die to realize it.

To the Gods, souls might be the tip of the "straws" that make up the connection between bodies and souls.  So they are able to directly consume sins/acts as they're performed.  "All men burned all the time" could mean that souls are always being consumed/tortured in the Outside, it's just that people don't know about it.

The Inverse Fire might allow a body to experience what their *soul* is currently experiencing.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: H on February 16, 2017, 05:17:54 pm
Extending the notion of viewing the Outside through your soul, I wonder if this is along the lines of what the Inverse Fire does.  Consider this line from TFS:

Quote
All Men wailed. All Men burned all the time. They need only die to realize it.

To the Gods, souls might be the tip of the "straws" that make up the connection between bodies and souls.  So they are able to directly consume sins/acts as they're performed.  "All men burned all the time" could mean that souls are always being consumed/tortured in the Outside, it's just that people don't know about it.

The Inverse Fire might allow a body to experience what their *soul* is currently experiencing.

I had a similar idea before, about what the Inverse Fire (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=458.msg31353#msg31353) is showing you when you look at it.  I think that is something of textual proof it could be true.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: Wilshire on February 16, 2017, 08:04:41 pm
Wonder how he physically got the heads then? If he went to the outside in spirit.



Could have summoned them a la Zioz and the others from TTT.

I thought it was nearly explicit that Kellhus hunted down the ciphrang  Iyokus had summoned so that he would be free to serve him?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: H on February 17, 2017, 11:23:49 am
I thought it was nearly explicit that Kellhus hunted down the ciphrang  Iyokus had summoned so that he would be free to serve him?

I don't recall that and couldn't find a passage to imply it.

Quote
Proyas was one of few who knew something about their acquisition, how Kellhus, during one of the longer truces that punctuated the Unification Wars, spent several weeks studying with Heramari Iyokus, the Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires, learning the darkest ways of Anagogic sorcery, the Daimos. Proyas had been among the first to see them when he returned from Carythusal and perhaps the first to dare ask Kellhus what had happened. His reply loomed large among the many unforgettable things the man had told him over the years: "There are two species of revelation, my old friend. Those that seize, and those that are seized. The first are the province of the priest, the latter belong to the sorcerer..."

Not that it doesn't mean those weren't the Chiphrang who would torment Iyokus though.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: Wilshire on February 17, 2017, 07:46:07 pm
Thought it was in TTT... or more likely I made it up. I think Iyokus does mention that he needs to somehow shed the yolk of his summoned Ciphrang though.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: MSJ on February 17, 2017, 09:20:26 pm
Thought it was in TTT... or more likely I made it up. I think Iyokus does mention that he needs to somehow shed the yolk of his summoned Ciphrang though.

I'm disappointed we haven't seen any of Iyokus. You'd think he'd be a great character to tie both series together. An outside perspective of someone being yoked by Kellhus.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: themerchant on February 18, 2017, 11:42:53 am
Thought it was in TTT... or more likely I made it up. I think Iyokus does mention that he needs to somehow shed the yolk of his summoned Ciphrang though.

There was a theory that the demon heads on Kel's belt were the demons he summoned, but he summoned 4 demons total i believe anyway.

I can only remember Iyokus mentioning it was his fate anyway when the demon says "manling don't you recognise your fate" or some such thing.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: Madness on February 19, 2017, 12:12:10 am
There was a theory that the demon heads on Kel's belt were the demons he summoned, but he summoned 4 demons total i believe anyway.

Fairly sure that it was Triskele on Westeros that suggested the 'Iyokus' Gift' hypothesis. It depends on the complete dissolution of the two Ciphrang hit by Chorae vs. the "fading" of the one Achamian defeats in TWP, implying the same for the one he defeats in TTT.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: themerchant on February 19, 2017, 04:45:58 am
There was a theory that the demon heads on Kel's belt were the demons he summoned, but he summoned 4 demons total i believe anyway.

Fairly sure that it was Triskele on Westeros that suggested the 'Iyokus' Gift' hypothesis. It depends on the complete dissolution of the two Ciphrang hit by Chorae vs. the "fading" of the one Achamian defeats in TWP, implying the same for the one he defeats in TTT.

One was was hit by an absence on a stick the other by multiple hits from cish, but yeah, do they remain when defeated or do they do as Akka's one in TWP and cringe away back to the outside. Would also be a question relevant toi can Kel summon one and behead it and have the head remain in earwa without going back to the outside, which is what seems to happen to defeated Ciphrang.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: mrganondorf on March 08, 2017, 04:02:43 am
TO STRONG TO EAT AS IN IT WOULD BE A YUCKY TASTE
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: JRControl on April 08, 2017, 06:10:44 pm
My clipboard isn't wanting to work at the moment so I'm not going to quote, but Koringhus tells what is holy when he discovers the JE. Ignorance, blindness, surrender, forfeiture and loss. Sound like anyone? Serwe. That's why Bakker said that she was a sort of cipher for the books. She isn't damned as Kellhus told Proyas. Her ignorance, her loss all of that made her holy. I'd imagine if Mimara could've looked upon her she would have been wreathed in Gold. Also, in TJE we hear over and over that what makes Sorweel a perfect vessel for Yatwer is his ignorance. Now, it's all so confusing. Because, I assume what Koringhus found out got him out of Damnation. Yet, that same ignorance makes Sorweel the perfect vessel for Yatwer, ergo a Ciphrang anyway you slice it. So count me as confused as hell. I'm just starting to believe that 99.9999% of people on Earwa are damned. Just how it works.

Serwe was holy, but she worshipped an outsider or a challenger to the existing framework. Her belief in big K made K an even bigger K metaphysically speaking. However when she died Kellhus still isn't charge of the Outside so she was necessarily damned by being a heathen.

I mean, I don't know that it's correct though.  Maybe if one is super-devoted to a god, you might be able to spare yourself.  Like, I would imagine Psatma got redeemed by Yatwer.  But I wonder why the gods would even bother to reward devotion if damnation is what they feed on?  Shouldn't they just want everyone damned in that case?

My theory is that the Demon Gods feed on the spectrum of emotion, sweet and salty. Maybe umami too. So they reward some of them to feast on their pleasant emotions.

----

So while I like the pretty metal idea of Cnauir being such a badass that he becomes a demon I can't square it with the Inchoroi. I mean their whole existence revolves around carnality and murder, entire worlds reaped and annihilated. Their Wracu certainly resist death and deform reality. How are none of them Ciphrang just waiting to shed their mortal bodies? They certainly don't lack willpower or conviction. They might only lack...belief?
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: Francis Buck on April 08, 2017, 09:57:41 pm
My theory is that the Demon Gods feed on the spectrum of emotion, sweet and salty. Maybe umami too. So they reward some of them to feast on their pleasant emotions.

----

So while I like the pretty metal idea of Cnauir being such a badass that he becomes a demon I can't square it with the Inchoroi. I mean their whole existence revolves around carnality and murder, entire worlds reaped and annihilated. Their Wracu certainly resist death and deform reality. How are none of them Ciphrang just waiting to shed their mortal bodies? They certainly don't lack willpower or conviction. They might only lack...belief?

I also believe that Ciphrang feed on emotion, however, I think they only feed on certain types of emotion -- negative ones, broadly speaking. Regret, sorrow, shame, guilt.

Gods are on the opposite end of the spectrum, as beings which feed on "positive" emotions, aspirations, desires, reaching, etc. Of course, I think the point here (as epitomized with the Inchoroi) is that neither end of this hypothetical spectrum is intrinsically good or bad, since it's all subjective or intersubjective.

This would also, at first blush, make the Inchoroi "angels" to the Ciphrang "demons". And the Inchoroi did descend from the Void (heavens), and historically were even referred to directly as Flesh-Angels, with the No-God being called the Angel-of-Endless-Hunger, and Aurang as the Angel-of-Deceit.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: MSJ on April 09, 2017, 10:12:33 pm
Serwe was holy, but she worshipped an outsider or a challenger to the existing framework. Her belief in big K made K an even bigger K metaphysically speaking. However when she died Kellhus still isn't charge of the Outside so she was necessarily damned by being a heathen.

Good point. I went back and looked up who she prayed to as a slave of House Gaunum, and it's the ancestors of that House. A lot like Zëum, right? And, along the lines that Sërwe is a cipher for the series, that might point to the long asked question of who will be damned. As in whole nations, every nation but Zëum. I think that's why we only get a cursory glance at Zëum.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: JRControl on April 10, 2017, 09:32:20 am
Good point. I went back and looked up who she prayed to as a slave of House Gaunum, and it's the ancestors of that House. A lot like Zëum, right? And, along the lines that Sërwe is a cipher for the series, that might point to the long asked question of who will be damned. As in whole nations, every nation but Zëum. I think that's why we only get a cursory glance at Zëum.

From what I recall you either need ancestor or divine intervention, so either dedicated worship to a specific deity or following the holy laws to the letter for the latter. I like to imagine divine loan shark lawyers surfing the Outside, just waiting for people to slip up on the merest technicality. As for ancestor intervention, well that presumes that your ancestors were also behaving well to be in a position to help you, no? I'd say that still leaves a fair bit of them up for grabs as saints and men of pure virtue are rare. Though I could be wrong, if all that is needed is just belief in something to make it true. If that is the case, there is good reason to behave virtuously (at least in regard to your own family) so your descendants would pray for/to you and give you power in the Outside. An interesting dynamic, game-theory wise. Defection would be unwise in that regard.

I can also imagine the various earthbourne God-Emprerors feeling all nice and cozy in heavenly castles until the prayer taxes stop coming for one reason or another.
Title: Re: [TGO SPOILERS] Souls too strong to eat
Post by: Darzin on May 17, 2017, 02:52:25 pm
My theory is that the Demon Gods feed on the spectrum of emotion, sweet and salty. Maybe umami too. So they reward some of them to feast on their pleasant emotions.

I think you are spot on here. The head on the pole scene mentions two places a place of fire and shrieks and a place of skies and moans   . I think if you life forever in pain or forever in ecstasy depends on what you do. If you make your soul salty or sweet. 

[EDIT Madness: Fixed your quote tag. Also, nice to read you again, Darzin :).]