Cishaurim

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locke

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« Reply #195 on: August 03, 2015, 09:14:02 pm »
It's very simple for me, Yatwer's Water is a poetic metaphor for menstrual blood. No ovulation = no menstruation = no fertility.
The corollary is that cishaurim dispense menstrual blood from their foreheads.

locke

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« Reply #196 on: August 03, 2015, 09:15:24 pm »
Regarding this from Wilshire:

"I agree with those that say the Cish may not be Few, as it fits into my thought that the Cish practice thaumaturgy rather than sorcery like the rest of the 3seas."

But they "salt" like the Few.  Maybe we need more discussion about what "salting" is all about, if the Cish are not the Few?
Cishaurim don't salt.

rnblut

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« Reply #197 on: August 03, 2015, 09:47:21 pm »
Old Moe salted and he was certainly Cishaurim.


themerchant

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« Reply #198 on: August 03, 2015, 11:47:53 pm »
Moe the Elder wasn't described as salting. Nor did it seem to be instantaneous like other chorae hits.

geoffrobro

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« Reply #199 on: August 03, 2015, 11:52:06 pm »
 :-\ dammit. page 387 of TTT
Moenghus gasped, jerked, and spasmed as Cnaiiur rolled the Chorae across his cheek. White light flashed from his gouged sockets. For an instant, Cnaiir thought, it seemed the God watched him though a mans skull.
What do you see?

But then his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of was had possesses them.

UM did The No-God look through Moes eyes. Cnaiir believes his god is dead, The No-God is the Scylvendi God, right?
"Wutrim kut mi’puru kamuir!"

MSJ

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« Reply #200 on: August 04, 2015, 12:07:58 am »
:-\ dammit. page 387 of TTT
Moenghus gasped, jerked, and spasmed as Cnaiiur rolled the Chorae across his cheek. White light flashed from his gouged sockets. For an instant, Cnaiir thought, it seemed the God watched him though a mans skull.
What do you see?

But then his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of was had possesses them.

UM did The No-God look through Moes eyes. Cnaiir believes his god is dead, The No-God is the Scylvendi God, right?

Now that sir is very interesting! Also no mention of salting neither. I seem to remember the consensus that the Cish kinda flash out of existence.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #201 on: August 04, 2015, 12:12:03 am »
Moe the Elder wasn't described as salting. Nor did it seem to be instantaneous like other chorae hits.

No, because he needed Cnaüir strength to transfer his soul either into Cnauir or whoever the hell Meppa was. Clearly, IMHO, the chorae being used on Moe by Cnaüir was no accident. That was planned.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Somnambulist

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« Reply #202 on: August 04, 2015, 12:54:53 am »
TTT, when Proyas (in Shimeh) is on a rooftop and throws his chorae at a Cishaurim:

Quote
Then a flash, a black-ringed circle of light, from which the saffron figure plummeted like a sodden flag.

It appears, maybe, that chorae have an equal-but-opposite effect on Cishaurim.  Sorcerers are completely turned to salt, clothes and all (removal of all water from them?).  Cish appear to be 'sodden' yet still 'burn' (becoming soaked or one with 'water'?).

Also, something that always bugged me:  Moe doesn't flinch before Cnaiur places the chorae on his cheek.  If he were a sorcerer, he would have sensed the thing coming toward him, but he doesn't.  He only reacts when it touches him.  So, a few possibilities:

1) Cishaurim aren't of the Few (they can't sense chorae, even though they kill them, too; is there any textual evidence to support/contradict this?)
2) Moenghus was not one of the Few (if he were, he may have sensed it coming toward him anyway)
3) Moe was so absorbed with what he was doing (trying to save his own ass), he didn't sense it (hard for me to believe, as the Dunyain have demonstrated they can easily concentrate on more than one thing at a time).

Just adding fuel to the speculative fire.
No whistling on the slog!

MSJ

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« Reply #203 on: August 04, 2015, 01:03:37 am »
TTT, when Proyas (in Shimeh) is on a rooftop and throws his chorae at a Cishaurim:

Quote
Then a flash, a black-ringed circle of light, from which the saffron figure plummeted like a sodden flag.

It appears, maybe, that chorae have an equal-but-opposite effect on Cishaurim.  Sorcerers are completely turned to salt, clothes and all (removal of all water from them?).  Cish appear to be 'sodden' yet still 'burn' (becoming soaked or one with 'water'?).

Also, something that always bugged me:  Moe doesn't flinch before Cnaiur places the chorae on his cheek.  If he were a sorcerer, he would have sensed the thing coming toward him, but he doesn't.  He only reacts when it touches him.  So, a few possibilities:

1) Cishaurim aren't of the Few (they can't sense chorae, even though they kill them, too; is there any textual evidence to support/contradict this?)
2) Moenghus was not one of the Few (if he were, he may have sensed it coming toward him anyway)
3) Moe was so absorbed with what he was doing (trying to save his own ass), he didn't sense it (hard for me to believe, as the Dunyain have demonstrated they can easily concentrate on more than one thing at a time).

Just adding fuel to the speculative fire.

Not taking anything away from your post, because you make some great points. Just, go back and read when Moe and Cnaüir meet after Kellhus knifes him. You don't think Moe wasn't expecting Cnaüir? I do. I think it was all part of the plan. That's why he doesn't flinch at the chorae. He's embraced what has to be done, as all Dûnyain would do. You can't convince me otherwise that Moe+Cnaüir=Meppa isn't true. Is there any memories left from them? No. Its the combination of Moe's intellect and Cnaüir's passion that makes Meppa as powerful as he is. And furthers the theory that Moe was just a pawn of someone else. Seswatha in my opinion, but who knows.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #204 on: August 04, 2015, 03:00:54 am »
Regarding this from Wilshire:

"I agree with those that say the Cish may not be Few, as it fits into my thought that the Cish practice thaumaturgy rather than sorcery like the rest of the 3seas."

But they "salt" like the Few.  Maybe we need more discussion about what "salting" is all about, if the Cish are not the Few?
Cishaurim don't salt.
Yeah they do.
proof: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1005.30

Moe the Elder wasn't described as salting. Nor did it seem to be instantaneous like other chorae hits.
The word salt wasn't explicitly mentioned, but he was eviscerated like the rest. See above proof.

TTT, when Proyas (in Shimeh) is on a rooftop and throws his chorae at a Cishaurim:

Quote
Then a flash, a black-ringed circle of light, from which the saffron figure plummeted like a sodden flag.

It appears, maybe, that chorae have an equal-but-opposite effect on Cishaurim.  Sorcerers are completely turned to salt, clothes and all (removal of all water from them?).  Cish appear to be 'sodden' yet still 'burn' (becoming soaked or one with 'water'?).

Also, something that always bugged me:  Moe doesn't flinch before Cnaiur places the chorae on his cheek.  If he were a sorcerer, he would have sensed the thing coming toward him, but he doesn't.  He only reacts when it touches him.  So, a few possibilities:

1) Cishaurim aren't of the Few (they can't sense chorae, even though they kill them, too; is there any textual evidence to support/contradict this?)
2) Moenghus was not one of the Few (if he were, he may have sensed it coming toward him anyway)
3) Moe was so absorbed with what he was doing (trying to save his own ass), he didn't sense it (hard for me to believe, as the Dunyain have demonstrated they can easily concentrate on more than one thing at a time).

Just adding fuel to the speculative fire.

Interesting idea. I wish we had more to go off of than this crazy scene though to support the claims.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 02:29:56 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

geoffrobro

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« Reply #205 on: August 04, 2015, 04:38:20 am »
TTT, when Proyas (in Shimeh) is on a rooftop and throws his chorae at a Cishaurim:

Quote
Then a flash, a black-ringed circle of light, from which the saffron figure plummeted like a sodden flag.

It appears, maybe, that chorae have an equal-but-opposite effect on Cishaurim.  Sorcerers are completely turned to salt, clothes and all (removal of all water from them?).  Cish appear to be 'sodden' yet still 'burn' (becoming soaked or one with 'water'?).

Also, something that always bugged me:  Moe doesn't flinch before Cnaiur places the chorae on his cheek.  If he were a sorcerer, he would have sensed the thing coming toward him, but he doesn't.  He only reacts when it touches him.  So, a few possibilities:

1) Cishaurim aren't of the Few (they can't sense chorae, even though they kill them, too; is there any textual evidence to support/contradict this?)
2) Moenghus was not one of the Few (if he were, he may have sensed it coming toward him anyway)
3) Moe was so absorbed with what he was doing (trying to save his own ass), he didn't sense it (hard for me to believe, as the Dunyain have demonstrated they can easily concentrate on more than one thing at a time).

Just adding fuel to the speculative fire.

Pg 136 TWP

They walked to elude the companies of crossbowmen they Knew the Inrihi kept behind their lines, armed with the Tears of God. Not one among their number could be risked, not with the Scarlet Spires girding for war-not for any reason. THey were Cishaurim, Indara's Waterbearers, and their breath was more precious then the breath of thousands. They were oasis among men.


They cant see them. 
"Wutrim kut mi’puru kamuir!"

Wilshire

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« Reply #206 on: August 04, 2015, 01:43:12 pm »
Not explicitly said that they could feel them, but it might be argued that is in fact how they knew that they were behind the lines. Ambiguous though.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

geoffrobro

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« Reply #207 on: August 04, 2015, 02:06:13 pm »
i say they knew because its a part of the Inrithi war culture, what Inrithi army doesnt have Chorae bowmen.

and how do Chorae bowmen work exactly, do they place the Chorae at the tip of an arrow? i guess slaves collect the chorae that litter the ground after a battle. Do we have a number of chrae in the Three Seas
"Wutrim kut mi’puru kamuir!"

H

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« Reply #208 on: August 04, 2015, 02:15:46 pm »
i say they knew because its a part of the Inrithi war culture, what Inrithi army doesnt have Chorae bowmen.

and how do Chorae bowmen work exactly, do they place the Chorae at the tip of an arrow? i guess slaves collect the chorae that litter the ground after a battle. Do we have a number of chrae in the Three Seas

I would guess a hollow-point arrow, with the Chorae affixed to it somehow.

I hypothesized once that it would be a trivial matter to collect them after battle, one Sorcerer could easily point out where each was simply by walking around since they could feel their presence.

As for the number, we don't know, but it's several thousand at least.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #209 on: August 04, 2015, 02:21:01 pm »
i say they knew because its a part of the Inrithi war culture, what Inrithi army doesnt have Chorae bowmen.
This is the more likely explanation.

and how do Chorae bowmen work exactly, do they place the Chorae at the tip of an arrow? i guess slaves collect the chorae that litter the ground after a battle. Do we have a number of chrae in the Three Seas
I think they are placed on the tip of the arrow as you suggest.

As for the number of chorae, it might have been mentioned once in the books but I can't recall the number. I have an issue with the concept of chorae bowman, because in the beginning chorae are described as so valuable they can only be bought with the dowery of the merger of two major royal families (this is probably discussed in the Chorae thread). How can you equip an ARMY with weapons that alleged cost more than the entire income of the host, especially when each weapon gets only a single use... It seem to me that Sakarpus alone should be able to field such bowmen, with their chorae horde.

However, it does seem that every major contingent of the Inrithi army has at least one cabal of of these priceless bowman, and I'd guess that its someone's job to collect the arrows once loosed. Even still, the chance for theft would be so incredibly high, the fortune of kings laying all over the ground, that its hard to imagine any effective way of collecting them.

All that said, its probably best to move the discussion of Chorae to another thread, or a new thread, but not here, as this topic is for Cisharuim.

Chorae topic: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1005.105
Feel free to make your own as well.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 02:30:29 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.