The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: What Came Before on June 03, 2013, 02:46:01 pm
-
We all know that Bakker's fantasy world has been heavily inspired by the Old Testament, among other things. How many Biblical allusions and quotes can you find in the Second Apocalypse books?
The most obvious one would be the "dashed to pieces like a potter's vessel" line in the Seswatha flashback in TWP, obviously lifted from Psalms 2:9.
That part in TWW about the chosen 144, 000 who would survive the apocalypse also strikes me as very Biblical.
-
Obviously, the Prophet narrative. Damnation. Consequences of Faith. Indifferent Deities. Or are these not specific enough?
-
People turning to salt.
Inri Sejenus.
Interpretive scripture.
-
Obviously, the Prophet narrative. Damnation. Consequences of Faith. Indifferent Deities. Or are these not specific enough?
I was looking for more specific lines that are obviously lifted out of the Bible, but these are good enough.
-
I don't know whether this is too vague, but those two came to my mind:
Chronicle of the Tusk, Book of Songs 6:33: "You are fallen from Him like sparks from the flame. A dark wind blows, and you are soon to flicker out."
Bible, Psalms 103:15,16: "As for man, his days are like grass, he flourishes like a flower of the field; the wind blows over it and it is gone, and its place remembers it no more."
-
I think, Haaska, these are exactly what Auriga was looking for.
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Haaska :). Glad you found your way. Cheers.
Three times in my childhood I read the bible cover to cover and, also - having been an altar boy and lifetime churchgoer (at that point) - have been exposed to many passages in my life. In fact, I might argue that going to church as a child and wrestling with the ideas there is one of the primary reasons I engaged big ideas. Metaphysical big.
Is doing a bible reread a thing ;)?
-
That famous line from Exodus 22:18, "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", also appears in the TSA books. Although, if I remember right, "witch" is replaced with "whore".
I think, Haaska, these are exactly what Auriga was looking for.
Yep, that sort of thing. I'm not exactly picky, just curious which lines in Scött's books are directly taken from religious scripture.
-
Lmao... damn, I was thinking the other day how much I regretted not keeping a bible in my library when I suffered the first great book purge, a number of years ago, since I was twelve - donated the bible, since I didn't think I'd need it anymore.
It really says that witch line in the bible?! 'Cause I read that reversal the other way first, then did a double take. Lol... Witchcraft in the Old Testement.
I know you aren't picky, Auriga. Your perspective has been very easy to enjoy and engage since meeting you :).
-
It really says that witch line in the bible?!
Not exactly. The original word in archaic Hebrew was chasapah, which apparently can mean "poisoner" as well as "sorcerer". However, a lot of things got lost in translation, and this seems to be one of them. Remember that the Hebrew writing of the Old Testament was translated to Greek and Latin, and from there on to English, where we get the mistranslated King James Bible and its famous line about witches.
I dunno which Bible you've been reading, but supposedly the newer translations have removed that line. Haven't checked yet.
Lol... Witchcraft in the Old Testement.
To the Israelites of that time, the idea of witchcraft was just as real as damnation is to Eärwans.
(I was about to say "about as real as witchcraft is to Eärwans", but that'd be stupid. In that case, the ancient Israel would look like Dragonball Z, complete with sorcerers firing thunderbolts from their hands and tearing into each other's wards like a rapist through a cotton shift.)
I know you aren't picky, Auriga. Your perspective has been very easy to enjoy and engage since meeting you :).
Thanks. And kudos to you for keeping up this forum, or else we wouldn't have met at all. :)
-
I dunno which Bible you've been reading, but supposedly the newer translations have removed that line. Haven't checked yet.
It was definitely the newest and most derivative, or furthest from the original documents, that is, about 25ish years ago. I'm sure the generational scribes haven't changed it much since then in their transcriptions ;).
I had known of sorcery in the bible but witchcraft... real cool.
Thanks. And kudos to you for keeping up this forum, or else we wouldn't have met at all. :)
Pish. Think nothing of it. You've all been real generous with your time as well. I appreciate melding minds, experiencing the merging noosphere with everyone.
-
I think, Haaska, these are exactly what Auriga was looking for.
That's great, but I have to say that the quotations are not the most crucial in their respective metaphysics, of course. The Bible verse is one of those 'poetic bits' that I loved even after abandoning religion. But to find them you have to sort through quite a bit of ... crap. What didn't keep me from reading good parts of the Good Book in my childhood/adolescence. I guess I still have to thank the book for getting me into fantasy in the first place, haha. Plus you have a point with 'big ideas'.
And thanks for both this forum and the welcome!
-
Of course, Haaska. Just nursing the noosphere ;).
It makes me wonder how many of us in the Western Empire - or readers of other religious texts - initially approached fantasy because of those the 'big ideas' in Holy Books. I mean, I'd actually hard be pressed to describe why I started reading fantasy... I know that my elementary school library, inches from my first grade classroom, was a huge contributor to any and all reading I've done in my life. Bakker's got that blog called Freebasing Thaumazein[/u] (http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2012/02/28/freebasing-thaumazein/) about wonder in reading. LTG seems to explore those moments in certain spots as well. But I've always looked for 'big ideas' in any reading, no matter what. Why restrict the messengers of enlightenment?
So many of those moments for me happened in that library.
My parents also tell me this story that they read me the same books over and over again and before I could actually read I would sit there and recite the books while turning the pages. As someone who has a very distinct worldview now, with its neuropsych flavours, this interests me as well when consider my reading Darkness.
Believe it or not, it would have been the worldbuilding of the Bible, which at first enthralled me as a child and also disappointed as it bottomed out as a teenager. Though I still remember analyzing myself and effects of drugs and alcohol in terms of "on my soul" at seventeen.
Lol, I've spent some time trying to figure out why I am who I am.
However, whether reading the Bible directly contributed to my reading fantasy... I'm not so sure.
-
I was raised in an aethiest household. As a youngest child read from an early age, mainly readers digest printings of novels from my grandparents' shelves and encyclopedias and such.
Sections on the supernatural, fairy stories and ancient myths and legends captured my interest from early times and the bible was just one of many such for me.
Connecting the common threads from the air of deliberate mystery was a strong part of the attraction to fantasy for me, stumbling upon the fiction of M. Moorcock with its introspective and doomed central characters was a game changer for me - I read LotR before that, it was okay - but overlong and self important with its crappy poems, colourless descriptions and meandering asides and didn't really divert me from the fiction (contempory and SF shorts) I was into at the time.
I suspect that religious or not, the question of exactly what we are is something that drives human inquisitiveness. The world seems so concrete and obvious, whereas tracing our inner perspective onto our 'real' selves is an impossible and mystifying game.
Madness, it is interesting to me that you introspected on how your actions would affect you inner landscape (soul); despite my athiestic upbringing, I recall similar autoanalytical thoughts and periods of agnostism which, in retrospect, I believe may be borne from some common subconcious assumption that if one judges the world, then it must judge in return. Which of course is also central to Earwa's metaphysics :)
-
Readers digest were a constant bathroom read when I was younger too, actually. Parents seem to have had them always.
I was obsessed with ancient cultures and mythologies when I was younger, as well, (its blossomed into a much more coherent academic study) but especially the brutal ones, like Norse or Aztec.
I suspect that religious or not, the question of exactly what we are is something that drives human inquisitiveness. The world seems so concrete and obvious, whereas tracing our inner perspective onto our 'real' selves is an impossible and mystifying game.
Human curiosity defines, neh? As such, I'm interested in some clarification of meaning in your second sentence here.
Madness, it is interesting to me that you introspected on how your actions would affect you inner landscape (soul)
I was always driven by expertise... still am by some refined interpretations. What we do seems to change who we are seems to change what we do. What we feel seems to change who we are seems to change what we feel. What we feel seems to change what we do seems to change what we feel.
Of course, I'm heavily biases by my personal study - which has lead to academic study in its own right - knowing myself... which has led me to the brain.
Life is awesome and mysterious.
-
I suspect that religious or not, the question of exactly what we are is something that drives human inquisitiveness. The world seems so concrete and obvious, whereas tracing our inner perspective onto our 'real' selves is an impossible and mystifying game.
As such, I'm interested in some clarification of meaning in your second sentence here.
Ah, I mean that knowledge of ourselves is second hand - with introspection, we reflect upon our actions and trace back our thoughts and motivations as we remember them through the prism of hindsight. The things outside our windows define themselves and words are handy labels, but our motivations are constantly re-evaluated and relabeled. Today this feeling is determination - tomorrow I understand that it was anger. One day you understand there is a God, on another you might realize that as an abstraction of responsibility.
I think I am digressing here (I'm feeling rather prosaic today), but the kernel of the statement is that introspection can be an endless recursion, the more we think we understand ourselves, the more we have changed from being that person and the person that we think we understand is one someone from the past, who acted in certainty but is now shrouded in doubt. So, often we end the introspection early by justification, determining that next time we will behave in a similar manner but for slightly different reasons. And so the game continues, leaving us ever further from who we were although we feel that we are the same.
Bakker says we move in circles, I believe that we move in spirals. The more introspection, the greater the deviation and the greater the possibility for brilliant insight or its darker twin - madness. ;)
-
Bakker says we move in circles, I believe that we move in spirals.
An endlessly rising canon.
-
An endlessly rising canon.
:D
-
Now I think about it, isn't there something in Godel, Escher, Bach about how spirals can be mistaken for circles due to a limited viewpoint?
(Also, in The Elder Scrolls games, the circle of the universe turned on its side is a tower called 'I'. ;) )
-
Spirals are awesome.
It's all a question of perspective, as you say.
-
The High Temple Prayer, of course:
Sweet Gods of Gods,
Who walk among us, innumerable are you hallowed names,
May your bread silence our daily hunger,
Judge us not according to our trespasses
But according to our temptations.
For your name is Truth,
which endures and endures,
for ever and ever.
The Lord's Prayer:
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil
But Haaska I really love the one you quoted from The Chronicle of Tusk about the flame and spark as well.
In fact, the whole book gives me a very creepy, eerie, through-the-glass-darkly feeling, as if the story is somehow the story of our world, but in a parallel universe. That's part of its enormous appeal to me: it's never quite "safe" to simply file it away under "Escapism."
p.s.: can someone find a complete version of the High Temple Prayer? I'm piecing it together from memory and some fragments I've found, but I'm having trouble locating the full prayer
-
+1 Curethan.
Lol, Bakker's big on spirals people. Memgowa.
I feel like there is a Xinemus recites a complete version around one of the fires but I can't find it at the moment. Hrm..
-
Hey gang just a quick vent here, I know its polite to post specific questions in specific threads, but I'm guessing this thread might be fitting. So am I the only one that doesn't imagine Bakker's world as semi Sci-Fi? It seems when I read a lot of the responses on here a lot of you are imagining certain aspects of the series to be somewhat scientific in nature. Some examples I can think of off the top of my head:
The Heron Spear being some sort of a "Lazer" (I'm ashamed to admit that I just thought of Austin Powers after I typed that) I mean when I read it I literally imagined some sort of an epic spear.
I know the Ark is hard to ignore as a spaceship, but part of me just can't come to terms with that. With the most recent chapter preview most of you imagined an elevator of some kind, but I didn't...
"They floated upward through some kind of shaft, one impossibly vast, a gullet broad enough to house the King-Temple whole."
I like my fantasy to feel authentic and my biggest pet peeve is the blending of science fiction and fantasy. I know that sounds lame, but that's just how I feel. I suppose I like the more "biblical" setting that Bakker has provided rather than the metal/science fiction aspect that surrounds the Ark. Am I the only one that feels this way?
-
So am I the only one that doesn't imagine Bakker's world as semi Sci-Fi?
You may very well be. I happen to think, unless he cast the Inchoroi as demons instead of aliens, that his blend of SFF has been masterful.
The Heron Spear being some sort of a "Lazer" (I'm ashamed to admit that I just thought of Austin Powers after I typed that) I mean when I read it I literally imagined some sort of an epic spear.
I know the Ark is hard to ignore as a spaceship, but part of me just can't come to terms with that. With the most recent chapter preview most of you imagined an elevator of some kind, but I didn't...
+1. I would have said lasgun ;).
Also, there are quite a few of us that might speculate creature before spaceship.
-
I'm not one, who draws hard borders between scifi and fantasy, but Bakker's mixture of the two genres is perfect. When I read about the Inchoroi and her weapons of light against the armies of the Nonmen, I had images of those battles in the Warhammer 40.000 universe in my mind ( I've played these miniature games very often some years ago ) And the Warhammer universe is also a cool mixture of fantasy and scifi.
The Heron Spear is a big laserweapon from the eldar race in Warhammer 40k, I am sure ;)
-
+1, Davias.
I always enjoy the idea of interaction between space-faring and planet bound species or, say, the types of the Kardashev scale.
-
Lmao... what a fucking memory I have sometimes.
p.s.: can someone find a complete version of the High Temple Prayer? I'm piecing it together from memory and some fragments I've found, but I'm having trouble locating the full prayer
I feel like there is a Xinemus recites a complete version around one of the fires but I can't find it at the moment. Hrm..
Here TS, if you're lurking, only many moons later.
I was right:
Sweet God of Gods,
who walk among us,
innumerable are your holy names.
May your bread silence our daily hunger,
may your rains quicken our undying lands,
may our submission be answered with dominion,
so we may prosper in your name.
Judge us not according to our trespasses,
but according to our temptations,
and deliver unto others,
what others have delivered unto us,
for your name is Power,
and your name is Glory,
for your name is Truth,
which endures and endures,
for ever and ever.
Glory to the God.
-
I know I'm dragging an old thread up, but when I read TJE, there is one scene that reminds me very much of the Bible, only the other way round. I mean Chapter 9, when Psatma Nannaferi is reciting "Sinyatwa" and says "Cursed be..." This reminds me of Matthew 5 and the famous "eight blessings", only here we have six curses.
-
The best and subtlest Bible allusion in the entire TSA series - that scene where Kellhus is punished with something that sounds like a combo of crucifixion and circumcision.
Mind = blown. Ever am I deceived.
-
It also sounds like circumference, which makes sense because he's tied to a circle.
-
I know I'm dragging an old thread up
Please do not hesitate to do so in the future. Resurrect at will.
-
I'm no Biblical historian, but I remember enough from my childhood that I kind of chuckled when I first read it. I don't remember specifically where it was in the Bible, but someone, somewhere used the 'jawbone of an ass' as a weapon. Cue TWP (I think it was the liberation of Caraskand), Kellhus is described as having ripped off Kascamandri's jawbone, and I imagined him clubbing people with it. Just doing my part to bring the conversation down a level. :P
-
Lmao - "no Biblical historian:" you ever watch how "being a Biblical historian" turned out for Reza Aslan interviewing for Zealot? I honestly would have loved to read the "Warrior-Prophet" beating down Kascamandri.
EDIT: You just have to watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7UU6FQoU_g
So ridiculous.
"I am a Professor of Religion..."
"I am a Ph.D in the History of Religion..."
-
So, wait. Can you tell us all again what qualifies you to write about Jesus? I'm not sure I got it the first dozen times or so. It's just not sinking in. What do you do, man?!
-
Lol - it honestly feels like watching an episode of South Park in real life.
"Yes but why would a Muslim write about Jesus...?!"
-
Shit man.
I couldn't get government assistance to do my masters in IT.
Guy I work with is doing a 'masters' in 'Theology' at a religious 'college': government assistance, no probs.
Grinds my gears.
-
Religious governments man.
-
Shit man.
I couldn't get government assistance to do my masters in IT.
Guy I work with is doing a 'masters' in 'Theology' at a religious 'college': government assistance, no probs.
Grinds my gears.
Wow, how immensely irritating. The issue being the people who make those kinds of decisions have no business having that kind of authority or power.
A friend of mine couldn't get funding for his chemical engineering Ph.D while his friend got huge grants to tramp around Europe for some nonsense anthropological MS.
Sorry, but I'm a math/science guy. I can't see how advancements in the field of anthropology could get preferential treatment over chemical engineering.
-
Sometimes it just comes down to who has the more persuasive grant-writers.
-
Shit man.
I couldn't get government assistance to do my masters in IT.
Guy I work with is doing a 'masters' in 'Theology' at a religious 'college': government assistance, no probs.
Grinds my gears.
Wow, how immensely irritating. The issue being the people who make those kinds of decisions have no business having that kind of authority or power.
A friend of mine couldn't get funding for his chemical engineering Ph.D while his friend got huge grants to tramp around Europe for some nonsense anthropological MS.
Sorry, but I'm a math/science guy. I can't see how advancements in the field of anthropology could get preferential treatment over chemical engineering.
Sometimes it just comes down to who has the more persuasive grant-writers.
This really grinds my gears. There needs to be a more effective communication between practicing academics and administrators, grant boards, etc.
-
Apparently there wasn't a single engineer in the panel. They kept telling him his proposal was too complicated, that it had too much jargon, and that they couldn't understand it so they rejected it.
1) Duh. Even at an undergrad level its complex, I can't imagine trying to dumb down a proposal for something complex enough to do a Ph.D thesis on it.
2) Engineers take, 1, maybe 2 writing classes. Most of the writing that they do is for scientific journals and papers. Not really sure how you can remove jargon when the topic is Humin nano-particulates generated as a by product from the catalytic production of Ethanol.
-
"Hi, you've been relentless drilled for a number of years to think and write in numbers and equations. Why you no write good? Oh no, you not get this!"
-
Maybe my group of friends had the wrong sci/math/engineers majors at USC, but they were mocking all of us non-STEM majors our senior year because of our fretting about the immense costs of a graduate degrees. My ex-girlfriend at the time said, "My doctorate will be free, no loans. That's how it is for everyone in science, you don't actually pay for your degree, the university does, because it's actually useful." And they did go on to get their PHDs. Now she posts angry rants on facebook about how women scientists are treated. I bailed on a graduate degree and got a real job. :-p
***
in any event, I resurrected this thread because I saw an interview with Darren Aronofsky about Noah. paraphrasing he said: people don't think of the story of Noah from Noah's perspective. This wasn't just a nursery school story to him: This was the End of the World--Apocalypse! it's not just about the blessed winning and God punishing the wicked, it's about your entire world just... gone.
(also, the muslim community is issuing a fatwa against the film since Noah is in the Koran and therefore cannot be portrayed. some theatres have already refused to play it, fearing terrorist attacks from islamists).
And that comment made me think:
What if the Inchoroi are the Inchoroi that are NOT wicked. These are the good ones the God saved because all the others were so bad.
That's why the ship they're on is called the Ark.
The first apocalypse is not the no-god, becuase that didn't wipe out the world.
The first apocalypse is God destroying the Inchoroi's world for their wickedness.
-
It's an Ark and there's 2 Inchoroi on it! But they both have penises.
About the 144,000--I think this comes from Revelations chapters 7 & 14
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%207&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2014&version=NIV
In sum, it's the end of the world and there are 12 tribes of 12,000 sanctified for some special purpose. I'm going to have to read the whole thing to get the context right.
Did a lot of Bible growing up. ;)
EDIT: If I remember correctly, there are many Christians who think the 144,000 are Jews who will convert to Christianity in the last days. AND I think this is related to US foreign policy via: above belief > religious right > US conservatives.
-
Did a lot of Bible growing up. ;)
I read it through at like eight, MG. And twice again around ten... which actually strikes me as really weird now, though I just wanted something to read.
There's a lot of strange stuff in there.
-
I read Genesis through Numbers at age eight as well, but then lost interest in getting through it all.
-
As a kid I did not read much of the Bible - what I read was a book of biblical deconstruction, called [in translation] "Tales of the Bible", which traced origins of all Old Testament stories to their earlier origins (Sumer, Mesopotamia, etc).
-
I was raised in a Bible-heavy environment. Got real sick of it along the way. But I was reading about rhetorical devices and damn near everyone in the book showed up in the KJV. I was impressed. I really like Bakker's "fantasy as scripture otherwise" bit. Like all the Bible stuff, seems to make the books, idk, more serious/special. That so much fantasy can be so close to current vernacular can be a turn off.
-
I'm honestly amazed that he hasn't seen a backlash for tackling the religious stuff as much as the gender issue. But it speaks to what offends society right now...
Or maybe all fantasy is equally damned as heretical.
-
I'm honestly amazed that he hasn't seen a backlash for tackling the religious stuff as much as the gender issue. But it speaks to what offends society right now...
Or maybe all fantasy is equally damned as heretical.
When I hear Tolkien invoked by religious folks, I think "yes! but he didn't make his characters go to church!"
-
So, I once talked with this Christian philosopher (seriously, he has a Ph. D. from a catholic university) who also happens to be a writer (of a kind of fantasy, but it's much more complicated). And he said that yes, in a way all fantasy is heretical, because it shows worlds with gods other than God - but on the other hand, what really counts is the message, so to say, the morality of the world. Well, I guess on that count Bakker would also fail miserably in the eyes of Christians.
But there is also one more thing - at least over here fantasy and science-fiction was never treated seriously. During the communist times, if you wanted to write a scathing critique of the regime and have it published by a state publishing house, you could write a sci-fi novel, because censors never really treated sci-fi seriously. And the same goes now for morality issues. Mainstream books are widely criticised (by different groups, of course) for gender issues, immorality, attacks on the church, you name it, while sci-fi and fantasy remains, so to say, under the radar.
BTW, one of the most openly heretical fantasy books is a YA series "Fallen" by Lauren Kate - and even though it was a huge hit, nobody noticed. Because it's just one of "those stupid fairy tales for kids".
-
But there is also one more thing - at least over here fantasy and science-fiction was never treated seriously. During the communist times, if you wanted to write a scathing critique of the regime and have it published by a state publishing house, you could write a sci-fi novel, because censors never really treated sci-fi seriously. And the same goes now for morality issues. Mainstream books are widely criticised (by different groups, of course) for gender issues, immorality, attacks on the church, you name it, while sci-fi and fantasy remains, so to say, under the radar.
BTW, one of the most openly heretical fantasy books is a YA series "Fallen" by Lauren Kate - and even though it was a huge hit, nobody noticed. Because it's just one of "those stupid fairy tales for kids".
+1 for perspective. This is really interesting - though, I'm sure it could easily have been harrowing living.
Wasn't C.S. Lewis a devout Christian? Isn't Aslan a Trinity-like stand-in?
-
Well, the system collapsed before I was old enough to really notice how bad it was. For me it was mostly all those daily indignities, empty shelves in shops, rationing, standing in long lines to buy the essentials. And now I look at my students, who were born several years later and have never known how it was, and I'm happy for them.
-
Well, the system collapsed before I was old enough to really notice how bad it was. For me it was mostly all those daily indignities, empty shelves in shops, rationing, standing in long lines to buy the essentials. And now I look at my students, who were born several years later and have never known how it was, and I'm happy for them.
I'm so torn on these types of generational embodiments. Does innocence depend entirely on ignorance? Isn't there some way for them to know and be informed without it ruining their everyday life?
-
Madness, let me put it this way. Have you ever stood in a two-hour line to buy a bottle of oil? Have you ever used old newspapers instead of toilet paper? These are the daily indignities that I talked about and I _am_ happy that my students have been spared.
-
@ Alia - I looked at Fallen--does look really heretical! Made me think of the Dark is Rising Sequence by Susan Cooper. Heretical via paganism. Oh! and The Golden Compass, etc.
Haha--thinking of philosopher you met, he's probably got really nuanced views and what not. I can't help thinking that I can start throwing rocks at people in my town and hit wildly different levels of what counts as heresy. Have you seen Jesus Camp? Terrifying documentary about a summer camp for conservative Christians in the US. At one point an adult tells the kids that Harry Potter would have been stoned if he had lived during the Old Testament.
I would love to know some of the titles that the censors missed! Please!
@ Madness - Aslan was a straight up Jesus stand in! The other members of the trinity had their own analogues in Narnia.
Generational weirdness: as the years roll by, my students have gone from knowing 9/11 just as I did to thinking of it as history. Very strange.
-
I would love to know some of the titles that the censors missed! Please!
The problem is, not much of it was translated into English - but take a look at this Wikipedia entry, he was one of the best examples here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janusz_Zajdel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janusz_Zajdel).
-
Madness, let me put it this way. Have you ever stood in a two-hour line to buy a bottle of oil? Have you ever used old newspapers instead of toilet paper? These are the daily indignities that I talked about and I _am_ happy that my students have been spared.
No to the first, but yes to the second... growing up I've been through many poor-person "indignities," as low as you can sink in a First World country, anyhow. I think the worst my family ever got to was the five of us living in a camp-site for a couple months when I was about six but we definitely did food banks, homeless meals, etc.
However, as a kid I didn't experience those as indignities - my parents and my older sister certainly did - it was only as I grew up and I began to understand that I was at the bottom of life's affluence that I retroactively perceived a difference.
Generational weirdness: as the years roll by, my students have gone from knowing 9/11 just as I did to thinking of it as history. Very strange.
This helps illustrate my question better. I'm not saying that growing generations should be subject to hardship... but must their innocence from experiencing such things depend on the total ignorance of hardship happening at all?
-
This helps illustrate my question better. I'm not saying that growing generations should be subject to hardship... but must their innocence from experiencing such things depend on the total ignorance of hardship happening at all?
Well, they do learn during history classes what life was like in the post-war period, I'm just happy that they did not experience it first-hand.
-
@ Alia - Thank you for the name! I think I would really like his work, but I only found one mention of an English translation of his work (put it on the wishlist all the same). It also mentioned Lem in the article and he's been on my 'to read' list for ages.
Now my mind is buzzing with scifi/fantasy/heresy:
Good Omens - Pratchett & Gaiman
American Gods - Gaiman
Sandman - Gaiman
Beware of God - Auslander
10 Billion Days & 100 Billion Nights (i think, haven't gotten to it yet) - Mitsuse
Lamb - Moore
Johannes Cabal - Howard
Infernals - Connolly
Sandman Slim - Kadrey
Mercury Falls - Kroese
If you like Narnia, you've got to read the Magicians by Lev Grossman. I liked it a lot. The sequel, however, is shit.
P.S. Alia & Madness, I hope you are both enjoying better days now. Sounds like you are well due for it.
-
This helps illustrate my question better. I'm not saying that growing generations should be subject to hardship... but must their innocence from experiencing such things depend on the total ignorance of hardship happening at all?
Well, they do learn during history classes what life was like in the post-war period, I'm just happy that they did not experience it first-hand.
Lol - indeed. I get you. I guess I took the thought a step further in that I can think of there is a prevalent ignorance that seems to be a byproduct of education here in Canada.
P.S. Alia & Madness, I hope you are both enjoying better days now. Sounds like you are well due for it.
Yeah, MG. Life's been a journey though. And I'm still climbing.
-
Yeah, I'm enjoying my life at the moment, as much as I can. There are better days and worse days, but nothing as bad as 1980s.
-
Bakker's No-God/Bible's God parallels:
God answers Job 'out of a whirlwind' and asks Job questions
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%2038&version=KJV
God leads people out of Egypt as a pillar of cloud
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2013&version=KJV
Mog is perhaps related to Gog+Magog, stuff from Revelation about the final battle
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020&version=KJV
-
Nice. You make me want to actually read the bible again to mine for antecedents :P.
-
2 Kings 2:11 has some good Bakker stuff:
Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Flying chariot, ascension, AND a whirlwind!
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Kings+2&version=NKJV
-
The whole passage about God commanding humanity to kill the Nonmen and "burn their chariots, hamstring their horses, water the earth with the blood of the wicked" is pretty obviously inspired by the bloodier parts of the old testament, with God commanding his followers to kill the Amalekites and all that.
-
Wonder if the Whore of Babylon is connected to Esmi?
-
Wonder if the Whore of Babylon is connected to Esmi?
She is referenced as "the Whore of Sumna" in one of the recap-prologues.
-
True, true.
Wanted to cross post this thing from Francis Buck, the Exodus movie trailer looks a lot like war in the Bakkerverse:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1379.0
Thinking along those lines, the 7th? plague, the one where the Angel of Death came to kill every firstborn in Egypt except for those homes maked in lambs blood
1) Cnaiur does some similar selecting for a little bit in TWP
2) Possibly similar to the womb plague...
-
Responding to the Inchoroi thread made me remember this little nugget. Noah's ark was thought to have been 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits deep. Bakker describes in TTT the Inchie Ark as 3000 cubits long, 500 cubits wide and 300 cubits deep. So, 10 times the dimensions of each, and at least 100 times more awesome.
-
Responding to the Inchoroi thread made me remember this little nugget. Noah's ark was thought to have been 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits deep. Bakker describes in TTT the Inchie Ark as 3000 cubits long, 500 cubits wide and 300 cubits deep. So, 10 times the dimensions of each, and at least 100 times more awesome.
how did i miss this Somna? that's awesome!
i can't remember if this has been brought up before -- thinking about the Mandate something 'though you lose your soul, you gain the world' that's an inversion of Mark 8:36
"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%208:36&version=KJV
-
10^3 = 1,000 :P
-
This bit in Romans, where Paul seems to be saying something similar to the Bardic priest from the beginning of TDTCB: no law = no sin.
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+7%3A7&version=KJV
-
Geo got me thinking about more parallels between TSA yet to be published and Revelations here:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=813.msg22789#msg22789
Some thoughts:
Revelation 1
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1&version=NIV
- Jesus is "the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth." Kellhus preaches about witnessing, could be 'born of the dead' in some sense, as in traveling to the Outside and returning. Obv ruler of rulers.
- Jesus proclaims "“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”" So here we get something like a self-moving soul.
- Jesus is described as "The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance." Fits nicely with Bakker's depictions of sorcery
- Jesus claims "I hold the keys of death and Hades." Yup, he's got the meta-gnosis-daimos.
- When the writer, John, sees Jesus "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead." Reminds me of Kellhus telling Akka (the writer) that Akka will kneel.
Revelation 2
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%202&version=NIV
- Jesus portends to one church that "You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23 I will strike her children dead." Makes me think of Esmi and kids.
Revelation 4
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%204&version=NIV
- The elders and serafim make me think of nonmen and synthese
Revelation 5
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%205&version=NIV
- Scroll that must be opened --> map to Ishual?
Revelation 6
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%206&version=NIV
- opening the scroll brings doom specifically war, famine, and death; all current Earwan probs
Revelation 7
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%207&version=NIV
- 144,000
Revelation 8
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%208&version=NIV
- Big passage that smells of the Ark crashing into Earwa: "The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.
8 The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, 9 a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.
10 The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water— 11 the name of the star is Wormwood.[a] A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter."
Revelation 9
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%209&version=NIV
- the Abyss --> the Outside or the Void?
- maybe an Inchoroi parallel: 'locusts' appear an do some general killing and their appearance is macabre "7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8 Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10 They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer)."
- mabye another Inshoroi origin --> 200,000,000 soldiers show up
- wracu like thingies "17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. 18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. 19 The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury."
Revelation 10
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2010&version=NIV
- another scroll
- more depictions that sound like Bakker sorcery "Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars. 2 He was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, 3 and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion."
- the scroll is given to the writer to eat; it tastes like honey but grows sour in John's stomach an causes John to prophecy; this feels like what is going to happen to Akka; gets the scroll he desires, finds out something horrible, tells the world
Revelation 12
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2012&version=NIV
- includes a dragon and a pregnant woman
- the pregnant woman flees into the wilderness --> Mimara?
Revelation 13
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2013&version=NIV
- 1 dragon and 2 beasts
- one description of one of the beasts makes me think of Shauriatus "It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name" but it speaks blashphemy which might fit with Kellhus too.
- this bit reminded me of Kellhus "One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?"
Revelations 14
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2014&version=NIV
- the 144,000 are back
- there is so much gold in Revelations, Bakker's inspiration for the Inchoroi's fav color?
Revelations 16
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2016&version=NIV
- lots of wrath being poured out, Meppa's water comes to mind
- demons and a dragon
Revelations 17
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2017&version=NIV
- lots of good stuff, getting tired of typing
Revelation 19
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2019&version=NIV
- Kellhus kicking ass? "11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
king of kings and lord of lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh."
and then there's more stuff but i have to go wash dishes
-
wondering about this...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207:1-5
if Bakker took his inspiration from this, it might be that Mimara is the one with the "plank in her eye" --> some kind of grave sin in her that causes her to *believe* that she can accurately judge others
maybe she's got Akka wrong! maybe he's not going to hell after all!
and a bit from this passage is echoed in Bakker: 1) i think Akka tells Iyokus "if an eye offends thee..." and 2) in relation to Mimara: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018:6-9
so maybe Mimara kind find salvation by getting rid of the Judging Eye? perhaps equivalent to killing the thing growing in her womb. i'm calling it, the end of The Unholy Consult:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tqk2DFMjZF8
shaaaaavvveeeddd head
man, the inchoroi will probably want the little tyke for some gross reason or another
---------------------------------------
i wonder if the constant atrocities got boring on the ark, like:
"Hey Bob Inchoroi, I got you a present!"
"Oh great, Carl Inchoroi, I bet it's something you raped."
"Nope!"
"Something you smeared in black semen?"
"Nope, guess again!"
"Something you fused together into an abomination?"
"You got it!"
-
Just wanted to say I really enjoy your contributions here MG! Even aside from the interesting parallels, I just like seeing the little tidbits you find.
I really need to read the Bible more often.
-
Just wanted to say I really enjoy your contributions here MG! Even aside from the interesting parallels, I just like seeing the little tidbits you find.
I really need to read the Bible more often.
:) thanks FB! try as i might, i can't get the Good Book out of my head. i can't remember if i already said so, but i went to a Calvinist church and my Calvinist preacher was destined to get punked by Bruno:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LazrAzBP_0I
i would love to hear Bakker talk about his own encounters with religion and how it's changed his work. huh, i'm going to go over there and tell him that...
-
15 references to "whirlwind" in NIV Bible:
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=whirlwind&qs_version=NIV
interesting stuff in there...
-
So, a small fact that I accidentaly happened upon today. John 3,23 - John the Baptist is working in a place called Aenon: http://biblehub.com/topical/a/aenon.htm (http://biblehub.com/topical/a/aenon.htm). However, in some transcriptions it's not Aenon but Ainon.
-
I didn't read the whole thread to see if it had been mentioned before, but I just noticed that the proportions of the Incu-Holoinas given in TTT are exactly 10 times those of Noah's Ark. :D
-
The Ark of Damnation though...or salvation, depending on how you look at it.
Calvinists eh? So was predestination a big factor in the system then? What is the point of organized worship at that point aside from family values and community?
-
I didn't read the whole thread to see if it had been mentioned before, but I just noticed that the proportions of the Incu-Holoinas given in TTT are exactly 10 times those of Noah's Ark. :D
Lol - Somnambulist brought it up on the last page.