Crop circles

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Wilshire

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« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2014, 08:03:46 pm »
It's interesting to note that this time period of humanity isn't the only one obsessed with "signs" left by supposed extraterrestrials.  The ancient Egyptians (who seem to be the crux of all things strange and unexplained in the world) had very interesting hieroglyphics depicting sky people and the like.  I realize now that the motivation for fabricating crop circles today could be wealth, but what about back then?

I have no issue with the idea of aliens existing, and the pursing of such ideas as a pass time is entertaining.  IMO its unlikely we have had contact, but there is still the possibility. There are certainly strange things in humanities written history.

However, the history/science channel shows on the subjects are miserable at best :P. ALIENS! is not an explanation for every single phenomenon, and the subject can quickly degrade into conspiracy-theory subject matter.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". This could be applied to the ancient Egyptians and such.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 08:05:51 pm by Wilshire »
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sciborg2

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« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2014, 09:26:56 pm »
I don't think depiction of people floating in the sky would count as proof. There are many, many depictions of gods or spirits across the world after all.

That said, I do recall some weird shit happening in pre-modern Japan relating to sky phenomenon being witnessed by huge swaths of the populace. Plus there's that whole Divine Wind thing.

Wilshire

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« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2014, 09:50:27 pm »
There certainly is too much doubt and too little 'evidence' to confirm ET visits, but there is enough vagary to allow speculation at least.
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Madness

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« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2014, 11:27:39 am »
It's interesting to note that this time period of humanity isn't the only one obsessed with "signs" left by supposed extraterrestrials.  The ancient Egyptians (who seem to be the crux of all things strange and unexplained in the world) had very interesting hieroglyphics depicting sky people and the like.  I realize now that the motivation for fabricating crop circles today could be wealth, but what about back then?

I suppose you could argue they used such things as a religious driving force to increase faith in their gods, but there are quite a lot of weird signs and symbols that exist throughout human culture.

Pssh... Raizen. Find me a culture of time that doesn't have their valued symbols and signs ;).

I wasn't necessary saying that people made crop circles for wealth. And by Royce's art/graffiti argument upthread, if it wasn't someone else's property they were using as canvas, these people would be artists and wealthy. As for the farmers, if they get involved in the pandemonium that surrounds circle culture, they are barely recuperating their losses of the crops...

I haven't really paused to consider what evidence I want to bring to the thread but the most basic human motivation for doing these things is because it inspires people... bit o'magic.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". This could be applied to the ancient Egyptians and such.

+1

I don't think depiction of people floating in the sky would count as proof. There are many, many depictions of gods or spirits across the world after all.

That said, I do recall some weird shit happening in pre-modern Japan relating to sky phenomenon being witnessed by huge swaths of the populace. Plus there's that whole Divine Wind thing.

+1

I've read about this pre-modern Japan thing... as well as a couple other historically corroborated celestial events. I need to find it now.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 11:35:39 am by Madness »
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« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2014, 12:22:00 pm »
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Pssh... Raizen. Find me a culture of time that doesn't have their valued symbols and signs

Right. This worshipping of symbols and signs is fascinating stuff. Where do they come from? I am talking about pre organized religion times, because the organized sales of ideas and symbols are not fascinating as a mystery.

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I wasn't necessary saying that people made crop circles for wealth

I also think it is important to stress that even though someone has been caught doing this, does not at all imply that every piece around the world is made the same way(by folks). If they are, I am very interested in finding out their specific technique, because I have not heard anyone actually explain to me how it is possible to make these pieces of art, in a short period of time and without anyone noticing.

Wilshire

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« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2014, 01:24:33 pm »
As for no one noticing... its in a farm :P, not so difficult to hide in acres of farmland (daylight or otherwise).
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Raizen

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« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2014, 03:11:58 pm »
I'm rather enjoying the image of the priests of Egypt high on peyote painting their temple walls lol
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sciborg2

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« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2014, 04:44:44 pm »
Graham Hancock's Supernatural has some interesting comparisons between UFO abductions, fairy sightings, psychedelic experiences, and drug (or otherwise) induced shamanic vision quests.

I think the relation between the altered states is spot on, and the factors behind these experiences would be worth delving into.

Where Hancock stretches things is when he suggests the potential Spirit World that borders our own. I'm not sure there's enough there to really make this claim. It's like saying the commonality in archetypes (Trickster, Earth Mother, Sky Father, etc) is enough to show these beings must exist somewhere.

Raizen

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« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2014, 05:12:24 pm »

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". This could be applied to the ancient Egyptians and such.

Fair point, look at how much people were astonished by Tesla's AC current when he first debuted it.
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« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2014, 06:59:20 pm »
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I'm rather enjoying the image of the priests of Egypt high on peyote painting their temple walls lol

It is not as silly as you might think :) It is not such a bad theory when you look into the effects of these various substances you know. Most people will state that they have a profound religious experience. So I can easily see that pre literate societies took these visions as proof of the existence of higher beings(god) and eventually started worshipping symbols or signs depicting these visions.

As I mentioned above, there might of course be many other theories which are more spot on ;)

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As for no one noticing... its in a farm :P, not so difficult to hide in acres of farmland (daylight or otherwise).

Ok, fine :P  Some of them might get away with that. Still would like to know some of the techniques they use.

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Where Hancock stretches things is when he suggests the potential Spirit World that borders our own. I'm not sure there's enough there to really make this claim. It's like saying the commonality in archetypes (Trickster, Earth Mother, Sky Father, etc) is enough to show these beings must exist somewhere.

In his defence, he has probably been involved in hundreds of ceremonies, and since the experience in itself is so convincing, I can see him being very convinced by now :)  But you are right, his conviction through experience does not bring forth proof of anything.

sciborg2

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« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2014, 10:40:30 pm »
In his defence, he has probably been involved in hundreds of ceremonies, and since the experience in itself is so convincing, I can see him being very convinced by now :)  But you are right, his conviction through experience does not bring forth proof of anything.

Just to be clear I'm not saying he's 100% wrong. Just that he's taking the common themes and then assuming it's proof.

For one thing, no one in the DMT trials or on ayahuasca actually goes anywhere. Which would, in turn, suggest no one who experiences a UFO abduction goes anywhere.

But Hancock seems to take it the other way, which is that DMT and ayahuasca allow part of your consciousness to go to other realms and produce ultraterrestrial-human hybrids.

I think he'd have been better off examining the commonalities in the DMT/ayahuasca
experiences. If he can show some of the imagery that has been experienced prior to the internet was not due to communication about the drug he'd really hit upon something.

I mean even Sam Harris was impressed by some of that data at one time as it is kinda weird.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 10:42:10 pm by sciborg2 »

Madness

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« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2014, 01:36:14 pm »
Right. This worshipping of symbols and signs is fascinating stuff. Where do they come from? I am talking about pre organized religion times, because the organized sales of ideas and symbols are not fascinating as a mystery.

I was an avid student of the Transition for a number of years, Royce (the moment in time where consciousness seems to have "flicked on" in our cultural records).

Sensory deprivation and ritual substances seems to have been the standing theory for a number of years. I really like the ideas emerging now in the anthropology community in considering the acoustics (because consider all of the senses!!!) of ancient places (the "blue rocks" at Stonehenge or the less recent "music caves").

But I can imagine listening to the person who knew more stories than anyone else, after he maximized the degrees of separation between himself and the people [EDIT: Terrible me... there were obviously matriarchal societies - in fact some argue that matriarchal culture prevalently preceded patriarchal.]

To be quite honest, there is limited research into it, but if what keeps people alive gets preserved over generations, elders are like the lynchpin of a cultures agency (or tyrants, priests, and divine right of royalty). And so whatever they were doing, by that logic, had to have been successful most of the time, for... some utilitarian amount of the culture or else, the tradition would have fallen out of practice as that culture would have died out.

Quote
I'm rather enjoying the image of the priests of Egypt high on peyote painting their temple walls lol

It is not as silly as you might think :) It is not such a bad theory when you look into the effects of these various substances you know. Most people will state that they have a profound religious experience. So I can easily see that pre literate societies took these visions as proof of the existence of higher beings(god) and eventually started worshipping symbols or signs depicting these visions.

As I mentioned above, there might of course be many other theories which are more spot on ;)

Well, I was going to make the further tongue-in-cheek comment that we'd find it difficult to name a human culture that didn't get their leaders fucked up (unless it was a matter of persecution... over intoxication of consciousness), but that isn't strictly true. A great number of cultures and societies have followed the intoxicated, though (and still do the way politicians abuse legal drugs).

Quote
As for no one noticing... its in a farm :P, not so difficult to hide in acres of farmland (daylight or otherwise).

Ok, fine :P  Some of them might get away with that. Still would like to know some of the techniques they use.

How to Make a Crop Circle
Crop circles demystified: how the patterns are created
Circlemakers - Beginner's Guide

;)

Rebuttals to most of these involve measuring phenomenon by scientific methods or otherwise and looking for anomalies - the most obvious one is that many crop stalks in circles don't match breaking patterns of board planks pressing them down.

For one thing, no one in the DMT trials or on ayahuasca actually goes anywhere. Which would, in turn, suggest no one who experiences a UFO abduction goes anywhere.

It makes me think that the guiding narrative and the pageantry of ritual are necessary aspects...
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 03:37:20 pm by Madness »
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sciborg2

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« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2014, 12:10:05 am »
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It makes me think that the guiding narrative and the pageantry of ritual are necessary aspects...

It's definitely possible. I've read about rituals that induce altered states like what seems to be possession, but the ritual can also take that altered state - whatever it is - and make it far more useful than the erratic shifts in behavior we see with demons possessing(?) Christians or ghosts possessing(?) Hindu women on the eve of their marriage.

So perhaps both possession and abduction relate to psychological events that take on more chaotic aspects when divorced from ritual. I really wish Hancock had explored this some more. For example he mentions the carnival imagery appearing to a great number of DMT users, and the possibility that people ignorant of others' experiences are having similar trip imagery, but then doesn't really pursue that.

Srancy

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« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2014, 05:00:49 am »
Look,  I'm from Buenos Aires and I say KILL EM ALL

Royce

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« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2014, 08:18:53 pm »
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Sensory deprivation and ritual substances seems to have been the standing theory for a number of years. I really like the ideas emerging now in the anthropology community in considering the acoustics (because consider all of the senses!!!) of ancient places (the "blue rocks" at Stonehenge or the less recent "music caves").

This is very interesting. Can you elaborate, or maybe post some links? ;)

Quote
To be quite honest, there is limited research into it, but if what keeps people alive gets preserved over generations, elders are like the lynchpin of a cultures agency (or tyrants, priests, and divine right of royalty). And so whatever they were doing, by that logic, had to have been successful most of the time, for... some utilitarian amount of the culture or else, the tradition would have fallen out of practice as that culture would have died out.

Wade Davis is looking into this aspect in his book "Light at the edge of the world: A journey through the realm of vanishing cultures". Have not read it yet, but I think he is of the opinion that if all this old knowledge disappears, it will be a great loss. When a culture disappears, the language disappears too, and then there are no one who can pass on the knowledge. More and more cultures are being civilized, and the old ways are taken over by the new ways.

P.S Thanks for those "how to make crop circles" links Madness. I will show these to some of my more alien inclined friends :)