ARC (A Real Chopper): Prologue & Chapter 1

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MSJ

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« on: April 06, 2018, 04:21:24 pm »
If it is only after that we understand what has come before, then we understand nothing. Thus we shall define the soul as follows: that which precedes everything. —AJENCIS, THE THIRD ANALYTIC OF MEN

This is a history of a great and tragic holy war, of the mighty factions that sought to possess and pervert it, and of a son searching for his father. And as with all histories, it is we, the survivors, who will write its conclusion. —DRUSAS ACHAMIAN, COMPENDIUM OF THE FIRST HOLY WAR

ETA: This is how I want to start each thread, with the quotes at the beginning of each. In the title I put ARC (A Real Chopper), just ARC from here on out, just didn't want people confused with Advanced Reading Copy.

Using the quotes to begin each thread, I think, shows the detail and fresh eyes we should all be reading this with. I still, in my heart, do not believe TUC made the previous seven books meaningless. THIS IS THE THREAD FOR PROLOGUE & CHAPTER 1.  So, don't make another. I went ahead and did this because I want people aware of how we'll do it.

Conversation on the Prologue and Chapter 1 can begin whenever, now. I will probably read tonight. But, from now on threads won't start til each Sunday. Let the Slog of all Slogs begin, its gonna be A Real Chopper!
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2018, 05:00:10 pm »
I just wanted to get some things clarified through Madshire. Since the the series is complete, we will be discussing things that happen in later books and how they relate to earlier ones. So....what's the spoiler policy? Are we gonna have to use spoiler tags to discuss how something in TTT relates to TUC? Just trying to clarify and have rules set in place.

ETA: Madshire, maybe move this post to my original thread on the start of ARC.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 05:20:43 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

mostly.harmless

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« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2018, 06:30:07 pm »
I just wanted to get some things clarified through Madshire. Since the the series is complete, we will be discussing things that happen in later books and how they relate to earlier ones. So....what's the spoiler policy? Are we gonna have to use spoiler tags to discuss how something in TTT relates to TUC? Just trying to clarify and have rules set in place.

ETA: Madshire, maybe move this post to my original thread on the start of ARC.
To me personally, it wouldn't make sense at this point to use spoiler tags. Is this thread (can't see on mobile), or should it be, in a sub-forum where spoilers are not an issue?

The point is to gain new insight or make new connections (foreshadowing!) by re-reading the story from beginning till end with the benefit of foresight.

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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2018, 06:32:54 pm »
I just wanted to get some things clarified through Madshire. Since the the series is complete, we will be discussing things that happen in later books and how they relate to earlier ones. So....what's the spoiler policy? Are we gonna have to use spoiler tags to discuss how something in TTT relates to TUC? Just trying to clarify and have rules set in place.

If we're going to have a full-spoiler discussion of the whole series, I think we should add the "[TUC Spoilers]" warning to the title...


To me personally, it wouldn't make sense at this point to use spoiler tags. Is this thread (can't see on mobile), or should it be, in a sub-forum where spoilers are not an issue?

The point is to gain new insight or make new connections (foreshadowing!) by re-reading the story from beginning till end with the benefit of foresight.

...but if we're going to have this sort of discussion instead, then spoiler warnings won't be needed.


Maybe it would be better to have everyone involved in the reread mention what they prefer?
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

mostly.harmless

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« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2018, 06:37:18 pm »
I just wanted to get some things clarified through Madshire. Since the the series is complete, we will be discussing things that happen in later books and how they relate to earlier ones. So....what's the spoiler policy? Are we gonna have to use spoiler tags to discuss how something in TTT relates to TUC? Just trying to clarify and have rules set in place.

If we're going to have a full-spoiler discussion of the whole series, I think we should add the "[TUC Spoilers]" warning to the title...


To me personally, it wouldn't make sense at this point to use spoiler tags. Is this thread (can't see on mobile), or should it be, in a sub-forum where spoilers are not an issue?

The point is to gain new insight or make new connections (foreshadowing!) by re-reading the story from beginning till end with the benefit of foresight.

...but if we're going to have this sort of discussion instead, then spoiler warnings won't be needed.


Maybe it would be better to have everyone involved in the reread mention what they prefer?
Fair point. Maybe I'm hurtling along a track where the intended approach was different. Would like to know what others think.

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MSJ

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« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2018, 06:39:46 pm »
I agree mostlyharmless, this was my intention for the reread. To talk openly and make connections. But, its all up to the mods.

ETA: again, could a mod move all posts but the 1st to my original thread on getting this going.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 07:41:15 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2018, 11:30:03 am »
So, with the forum having been down for a few days, do we discuss the prologue and chapter 1 of TDTCB over this week and keep to the planned schedule, or do we postpone it to next Sunday?
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Wilshire

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« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2018, 12:12:25 pm »
I'd say proceed without spoiler tags in posts. Maybe we'll move the entire thing to its own subforum at some point, under General Earwa since that one doesn't have any child boards and its open spoilers...

So just carry and do what you guys thinks makes sense, and we'll deal with the moderation side later, per usual. :)
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MSJ

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« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2018, 02:24:48 pm »
Quote from:  ToT
So, with the forum having been down for a few days, do we discuss the prologue and chapter 1 of TDTCB over this week and keep to the planned schedule, or do we postpone it to next Sunday?

Of course, go on as planned. I read the Prologue and Chapter 1 last night. I plan to post my thoughts in a few. Just taking care of a sick kid (called from school), and my little terror (2 yr old) at the moment.

Quote from:  Madness
So just carry and do what you guys thinks makes sense, and we'll deal with the moderation side later, per usual. :)

What I like to hear, thank you.

Also, I figure forum would be back up soon enough, usually only a day when that happens.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 02:26:42 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2018, 03:21:25 pm »
Lol MSJ. You know, Madness and I are two different people. We've got enough trouble distinguishing ourselves without you misquoting :P.

Also, as Thelli (Our resident Timeline Wizard) mentioned via quorum, this read will take about 2.5 years. This convinced me that i should probably participate. I think there's still time for me to catch up, so I'll be participating.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 03:40:58 pm by Wilshire »
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« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2018, 03:23:11 pm »
Prologue: Always same things strike me here. First one is the Bardic Priest. I believe he was Consult and knowing what we know from TUC the Dunyain eventually "take over" the Consult, the Duyain could very well been lead there by the Consult, Mek or the like.....and just forgot. They have the same exact goals. And, this was brought up many times wether there was one or not. We'll never know (and excusing any extratextual fact), it would make sense. Remember, we hear over and over that the Consult patience would bugger the imagination. Anyhow, an unknown, one that makes too much sense.

Chapter 1: Also, another thing that always strikes me in this chapter and even more so, this time. This, this opening chapter, is where Akka dreams begin to change.

Quote
Death and Prophecy of Anasûrimbor Celmomas. Same.

See my face and not S in mirror.

Quote
Different. More powerful.

Its the second that strikes me. He feels a change. In a around a year, he will be following around a super human, and Kellhus will talk to Seswatha maybe opening up this connection with Akka. If we stop and think in the metaphysics of Earwa, this was always going to happen. IMO, its only natural that a short time before that change, Akka feels it coming on.

Quote
Ink might be immortal, but meaning was not.

How ironic, dont ya think!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 03:47:00 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2018, 03:29:03 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
Lol MSJ. You know, Madness and I are two different people. We've got enough trouble distinguishing ourselves without you misquoting :P.

Only meant it as the team that keeps this place going, and thanks for all you guys do.

Quote
Also, as Thelli (Timeline Wizard) mentioned via quorum, this read will take about 2.5 years. This convinced me that i should probably participate. I think there's still time for me to catch up, so I'll be participating.

Of course, it took me no time at all to read it and slowly. Also, this is the pace I wanted, to foster conversation at the site. Who knows, at some point we might have to up the amount per week, if Bakker got a book out..... Anyone, I think, should have time for this.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2018, 04:27:43 pm »
Lol MSJ. You know, Madness and I are two different people. We've got enough trouble distinguishing ourselves without you misquoting :P.

I have never seen the two of you in the same place, though... ;)


Also, as Thelli (Our resident Timeline Wizard) mentioned via quorum, this read will take about 2.5 years. This convinced me that i should probably participate. I think there's still time for me to catch up, so I'll be participating.

More details on that - I did the math assuming that, like we're doing right now at the start, prologues/interludes will get grouped with first/last chapters of the books they're in:
  • TDTCB has 19 chapters + prologue, so this reread goes on for 19 weeks.
  • TWP has 25 chapters -> 25 weeks.
  • TTT has 17 chapters -> 17 weeks (unless someone wants an extra week to discuss glossary details?)
  • TJE has 16 chapters + prologue and interlude, so I'm assuming we'll have 16 weeks of discussion (prologue being grouped with chapter 1 and interlude with chapter 16).
  • TWLW has 15 chapters + interlude -> again, assuming chapter 15 + interlude, so 15 weeks.
  • TGO has 17 chapters + prologue -> once again, chapter 1 + prologue, 17 weeks.
  • TUC has 20 chapters - 20 weeks (unless, like mentioned above for TTT, there is extra discussion on the glossary).
If the reread goes like this, there'll be a total of 129 weeks of discussion and we'd end TUC on September 20, 2020 (so yes, close to 2.5 years).


On Part I of the TDTCB prologue:
-Very predictably, I'm going for the genealogy & timeline nitpicks (I also predict everyone is going to get tired of this rather quickly...). I know that the idea of Celmomas surviving Eleneöt Fields somehow has been brought up before based on this passage:
Quote
Ganrelka's uncle, who'd led the heartbreaking assault on Golgotterath's gates in the early days of the Apocalypse, hung from a rope in his chambers, slowly twisting in a draft.
My timeline sorcery, as Wilshire put it, makes me really dislike the theory that Celmomas is Ganrelka's uncle. Celmomas was born in 2089. Ganrelka was born 15 years later in 2104. Celmomas was the High King and Ganrelka his heir, so it doesn't make sense for Ganrelka to have been the son of an older brother of Celmomas, because then he'd have been the High King if this hypothetical brother of Celmomas was dead. The age difference is already small enough for some people to doubt that Ganrelka was a son of Celmomas, so it doesn't make much sense for him to be the nephew of Celmomas via a younger brother, since then that brother would have had to be 14 or younger at the time of Ganrelka's birth. Of course, one can make the argument that Ganrelka could be a more distant relation and Celmomas' nephew by marriage...but that's entering too nitpicky a territory, even for me.
-I think this has also been brought up before, but I like the parallels and contrasts we have between the unnamed bastard boy and the Boy, aka Crabicus. One young boy becoming the first of a new Anasûrimbor line, the other being the last (at least from a generational point of view, since there are still other Anasûrimbor living). The bastard boy had recently lost his father at the time of the Dûnyain's arrival, and the Boy recently lost his father in the current series time. Ganrelka's son is not really an Anasûrimbor, in a way, as he's illegitimate; the Boy is not really a Dûnyain, in a way, as he's defective. And so on. It makes me wonder if there could be any clues for the Boy's future in the bastard boy's story?
-Has anyone ever discussed the fact that wolves might have some sort of symbolism in the story? (I know this has been discussed regarding trees, but that's all I can remember.) Off the top of my head, there's Cnaiür killing the wolf as a rite of passage in his flashbacks, the wolf carvings in Cil-Aujas, Sarl's "sometimes the dead bounce" rant (which also mentions wolves), Moënghus being described as the piglet raised among Anasûrimbor wolves... And here there's this passage:
Quote
Winter added its cold to the emptiness of Ishuäl. Propped on the battlements, the child would listen to the wolves sing and feud through the dark forests. He would pull his arms from his sleeves and hug his body against the chill, murmuring his dead mother’s songs and savouring the wind's bite on his cheek. He would fly through the courtyards, answering the wolves with Kûniüric war cries, brandishing weapons that staggered him with their weight.
It probably means nothing, but it just made me wonder.



Prologue: Always same things strike me here. First one is the Bardic Priest. I believe he was Consult and knowing what we know from TUC the Dunyain eventually "take over" the Consult, the Duyain could very well been lead there by the Consult, Mek or the like.....and just forgot. They have the same exact goals. And, this was brought up many times wether there was one or not. We'll never know (and excusing any extratextual fact), it would make sense. Remember, we hear over and over that the Consult patience would bugger the imagination. Anyhow, an unknown, one that makes too much sense.

That's an interesting idea, he definitely seems like a shady character, there could be more to him than we know.
Do we know if this is the same Bardic Priest that Akka mentions in his early TAE dreams (the ones with Seswatha's affair with the queen)? If so, he could very well be playing a long game, as that was decades before this prologue is set. After all, there was at least one Consult agent in Celmomas' court (Iëva), so why not more?
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Wilshire

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« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2018, 06:10:46 pm »
... the Bardic Priest. I believe he was Consult.
Interesting thought.
Is it strange that a bard is in Ishual at all? I mean, there's a limited number of people they are going to send, and they used up a slot for a bard? Though I guess he's the entertainment, Kings and their progeny must be entertained :P.

Though, that reasoning doesn't make a ton of sense. The Dunyain might have been a Consult project, but the bard here didn't survive to influence it. If the Dunyain were connected to the consult, it wouldn't have been this Bards doing.

He feels a change. In a around a year...
Bakker's comment about the timing of the dreams has always stuck out to me. We should be careful to catalogue dreams here. We'll be like the Mandate chronicling Seswatha ... lol

Quote
Ink might be immortal, but meaning was not.
How ironic, dont ya think!
A pretty common theme. Its the whole reason for the dreams, after all, because the Sagas don't hold captive the same way the Dreams do.


Lol MSJ. You know, Madness and I are two different people. We've got enough trouble distinguishing ourselves without you misquoting :P.

I have never seen the two of you in the same place, though... ;)
Luckily at least one picture does exist. Half the reason for Ishoiya and also ZDC was for us to verify we all exist ;) . You can come next time, that way we can make sure you exist.

Timeline
  • TDTCB has 19 chapters + prologue, so this reread goes on for 19 weeks.
  • TWP has 25 chapters -> 25 weeks.
  • TTT has 17 chapters -> 17 weeks (unless someone wants an extra week to discuss glossary details?)
  • TJE has 16 chapters + prologue and interlude, so I'm assuming we'll have 16 weeks of discussion (prologue being grouped with chapter 1 and interlude with chapter 16).
  • TWLW has 15 chapters + interlude -> again, assuming chapter 15 + interlude, so 15 weeks.
  • TGO has 17 chapters + prologue -> once again, chapter 1 + prologue, 17 weeks.
  • TUC has 20 chapters - 20 weeks (unless, like mentioned above for TTT, there is extra discussion on the glossary).
If the reread goes like this, there'll be a total of 129 weeks of discussion and we'd end TUC on September 20, 2020 (so yes, close to 2.5 years).
Awesome :) .

Quote
Ganrelka's uncle, who'd led the heartbreaking assault on Golgotterath's gates in the early days of the Apocalypse, hung from a rope in his chambers, slowly twisting in a draft.
In this passage Ganrelka's Uncle hung himself in Genrelka's chambers. Definitely not Celmomas.

-I think this has also been brought up before, but I like the parallels and contrasts we have between the unnamed bastard boy and the Boy, aka Crabicus. One young boy becoming the first of a new Anasûrimbor line, the other being the last (at least from a generational point of view, since there are still other Anasûrimbor living). The bastard boy had recently lost his father at the time of the Dûnyain's arrival, and the Boy recently lost his father in the current series time. Ganrelka's son is not really an Anasûrimbor, in a way, as he's illegitimate; the Boy is not really a Dûnyain, in a way, as he's defective. And so on. It makes me wonder if there could be any clues for the Boy's future in the bastard boy's story?
Thank you for pointing that out. So beautiful and poetic. Its moments like these that make the story so powerful.

-Has anyone ever discussed the fact that wolves might have some sort of symbolism in the story?
We'll have to keep track of Wolves this time (as well as trees ;) ).


... the Bardic Priest. I believe he was Consult a...
That's an interesting idea, he definitely seems like a shady character, there could be more to him than we know.
Do we know if this is the same Bardic Priest that Akka mentions in his early TAE dreams (the ones with Seswatha's affair with the queen)? If so, he could very well be playing a long game, as that was decades before this prologue is set. After all, there was at least one Consult agent in Celmomas' court (Iëva), so why not more?
A list of possible historic consult agents might be another entertaining thing to keep track of.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 06:12:30 pm by Wilshire »
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« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2018, 06:38:57 pm »
Interesting thought.
Is it strange that a bard is in Ishual at all? I mean, there's a limited number of people they are going to send, and they used up a slot for a bard? Though I guess he's the entertainment, Kings and their progeny must be entertained :P.

He was a Bardic Priest, though, maybe they made sure to save him for religious/cultural reasons? Granted, we don't have enough information to know what is exactly the role of a Bardic Priest in a king's court as opposed to a regular bard...


Bakker's comment about the timing of the dreams has always stuck out to me. We should be careful to catalogue dreams here. We'll be like the Mandate chronicling Seswatha ... lol

Who chronicles the chroniclers? :P
But seriously, this is a good idea. We have to keep note of these details to try to deduce more of Seswatha's goals. Though I'd guess that the dreams in PON have been discussed to death given how long it has been since these books were published.



Luckily at least one picture does exist. Half the reason for Ishoiya and also ZDC was for us to verify we all exist ;) . You can come next time, that way we can make sure you exist.

Definitely a goal I have, even if the distance makes it difficult.
Wait, my existence is in question?  :o TELL ME...WHO AM I?



Awesome :) .

Thanks! A true slog, but at least not as long as it could be if it was another fantasy series. There's an ASOIAF podcast that has recently started a one-chapter-a-week reread, that one is going to last over 6 years.



In this passage Ganrelka's Uncle hung himself in Genrelka's chambers. Definitely not Celmomas.

I should have clarified that better, but I'm sure I've seen the theory (can't remember if it was on the previous reread threads) that the uncle was Celmomas, who somehow survived the Battle of Eleneöt Fields only to die at Ishuäl. As we still don't know what the exact family relationship was between Celmomas and Ganrelka (has anyone asked Bakker this directly, by the way?), Celmomas could, in theory, be his uncle. I did want to bring it up, even if I personally don't believe it. Not only does the timeline not make sense, it would be unlikely to have Celmomas survive given what else we know (even if not impossible) and there would be no payoff to have Celmomas die of plague in Ishuäl. While there was indeed a point to the circumstances of Nau-Cayûti's death, I can't think of anything similar for Celmomas.



Thank you for pointing that out. So beautiful and poetic. Its moments like these that make the story so powerful.

They definitely have some similarities once you think about the two of them for a while... Another one is that they're both nameless, though not giving the bastard boy a name might not have been intentional in Bakker's part (only Ganrelka is named out of all the people who took refuge there).



We'll have to keep track of Wolves this time (as well as trees ;) ).

Wolves, trees and dreams. And can't forget Ajokli.



A list of possible historic consult agents might be another entertaining thing to keep track of.

This needs to be the new grand TSA conspiracy, forget about Moënghus and all of his secret identities. I kind of wish there was speculation on this in-universe, that would be quite entertaining.
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)