The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The White-Luck Warrior => Topic started by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:49:31 pm

Title: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:49:31 pm
Quote from: Jayfish
I'm not sure I get this - the voice advising him seems like more than just Dunyain instincts, but an entity of some type. Or am I just bonkers?
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:49:38 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Ajokli?
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:49:46 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Or Kellhus.

The text of the book is EXTREMELY SPECIFIC in stating it is Samarmis, his twin brother--but we all seem absolutely determined to not believe the text, but to overdetermine the text with our own self-flattering interpretations (because I came up with this interpretation it is inherently better, no?)
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:49:54 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
The Voice being poor old Sammy would also mirror the story of Kelmomas' namesake in the Sagas, who was born with a dead twin.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:50:02 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: lockesnow
The text of the book is EXTREMELY SPECIFIC in stating it is Samarmis, his twin brother--but we all seem absolutely determined to not believe the text, but to overdetermine the text with our own self-flattering interpretations (because I came up with this interpretation it is inherently better, no?)

We also got a pretty good indication of Samarmis' personality before he died from the text and there is a pretty high level of dissonance between that and lil Kel's inner voice.
IIRC its only lil Kel himself that identifies the voice as Samarmis.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:50:10 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
Actually, the Voice identifies itself as Samarmas as well. "Why didn't you kill me sooner?"

I think the Samarmas Esmenet and the rest of the world sees was just a broken remnant left behind when the bulk of its soul was torn away along with Kelmomas' eternal eye contact in their infancy. In fact, the Voice seems quite a bit more active after Samarmas' murder to me.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:50:18 pm
Quote from: Brother_Jacob
It is without doubt Sammy.

What's not clear is exactly what Sammy himself is/was.

The concept of the "dead "bouncing" as it were came up a few times in TWLW.  Theres this quote somewhere about old men behind the eyes of babes or some such.  I tend to read this as a type of reincarnation, perhaps some souls have sufficient power to remain bound to earwa i dunno.  So Sammy is in my opinion something more than simply Kel's twin, who or what exactly I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:50:26 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Yeh, I'm pretty caught up with the whole Ajokli thing.  He's in the background of many scenes in WLW.

I feel like there is a link between him and Kelmomas via Sammy.  I could well be wrong but I loves the speculating.

I'll reassemble my grand Ajokli crackpot theories if anyone is interested (after I've got these uni assignments done and I can spend a bit of free time on here instead of posting for procrastination purposes).
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:50:34 pm
Quote from: Madness
But Curethan... this was all a targeted effort to make sure I didn't fail school alone with a TSA obsession ;).

I'm in a pretty mixed camp on Kelmomas. I almost certainly think that he is one of Kellhus' most devious agents in Momemn - whether he knows it or not. I also believe that Kelmomas has to have attracted Ajolki simply because Kelmomas is fulfilling all the loose tenets of Ajolkism in his narrative. Bakker isn't exactly overt.

Perhaps, it's even all three, that Samarmas and Kelmomas shared one soul, despite what I've described.

However, I think on that note Kelmomas is deluding himself. The Prologue in TJE is his cipher at this point. "She looked him square in the eye, and he stared into the pith of her, past the paint and skin, past the sheath of interlocking muscles, down to the radiant truth of her love. She would die for you, the secret voice - the one that had been within him always - whispered." (p14, TJE)

Clearly, the Voice was with him before Sammy died.

This is also the passage that really convinces me of the forth option, that Kelmomas' Voice is really just an expression of his Dunyain genes in a way a child might internalize, especially given the strange form his child's brain would take.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:50:46 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
I don't see the voice being with him before Samarmas died is at all incompatible with it actually being Samarmas' soul.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:50:54 pm
Quote from: Cynical Cat
Madness or Kelmomas's subconscious.  The only one who hears the voice is Kelmomas, who appears to be something like a high functioning, highly intelligent psychopath.  It doesn't matter what the voice calls itself because we have no way of verifying the authenticity of its claims.  Bakker has created high functioning characters with mental illnesses before, such a Cnauir and Conphas.  Why cannot Kelmomas simply be mad?
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:51:00 pm
Quote from: Curethan
He surely could be.  But the voice appears to have access to information that lil Kel doesn't and extraneous objectives to boot. Eg He assassinates the Yatwerian delegatation at its behest iirc.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:51:08 pm
Quote from: Madness
That's not true, Curethan. p. 404 - 413 TJE are Kelmomas' perspective of "deciding" to kill the Yatwerian Matriarch. The Voice stops talking after Kelmomas takes its warning not to be seen by Kellhus and Kelmomas, who had then gone to the Imperial Audience Chamber on nothing more than a whim, it seems, follows the scent of the Matriarch's piss to the Guest Compound and kills the Yatwerian delegation with nary an articulated, italicized thought.

It seems much more in line with the theory of the Gods exercising their agency in the very descriptions of our character's POVs. Like when Sorweel lies to Kellhus in TJE when he's declared a Believer King, when he charges back to save Eskeles in WLW, or when Achamian lies to the Skin Eaters about the coffers. Though there are other more and less explicit references for this type of theory.

So in this instance, Ajolki, Patron God of the Narindar, for whom murder is holy...?
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:51:21 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Thanks for the correction Madness. Restricted to posting from uni and my books are in boxes from my recent move so I can't check these things
But yeh, Ajokli... ;)
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:51:28 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
Siamese souls?
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:51:37 pm
Quote from: Mog Kellhus
I think it is Samarma's soul trasferred to him after their spiritual seperation when they were babies.Although i agree that Ajokli's interference is intriguing as a theory.
Kelmomas is an interesting character, reminds me of Leto II from Dune although in a more disturbing way naturally.His role in UC is a big enigma to me,he is probably going to create more havoc but to what end?Even the WLW doesn't seem to anticipate the little freak.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:51:44 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Mog Kellhus
Even the WLW doesn't seem to anticipate the little freak.

Huh. A threat the Gods are blind to.

 :o

No, just crackpot stuff. Can't be the case.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:51:51 pm
Quote from: Borque
There is an interesting thing in the omitted TTT Glossary entry referenced by lockesnow in this  thread (link) (http://secondapocalypse.forumer.com/old-three-seas-forums-t1189010.html):

Quote
820 - The Rape of Omindalea. Jiricet, a Nonman
Siqû to the God-King Nincarû-Telesser II
(787-828), rapes Omindalea (808-825), first
daughter of Sanna-Neorjë (772-858) of the
house of Anasûrimbor in 824, and then flees
to Ishterebinth. When Nil’giccas refuses to
return Jiricet to Ûmerau, Nicarû-Telesser II
expels all Nonmen from the Ûmeri Empire.
Omindalea conceives by the union and dies
bearing Anasûrimbor Sanna-Jephera (825-
1032), called ‘Twoheart.’ After a house-slave
conceives by him, Sanna-Jephera is adopted
by Sanna-Neorjë as his heir.
- The cuneiform script and the syllabaries of
the Nonmen are outlawed and replaced with a
consonantal alphabet, c.835.

My bold.

I find the nick 'Twoheart'  extremely interesting. I believe it's a reference to Sanna-Jephera having two personalities/souls, like Kel/Sam. If so, having double souls could be a hereditary trait within the Anasûrimbor family from that point, surfacing now and then (when they have twins?). Could have been a twin thing here too, from the limited information we have, Sanna-Jephera very well could have had a twin sibling who died at some point.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:51:58 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
I thought the same thing when I reposted it.

Could point to how the crossbreeding succeeded, for whatever reason the body was ensouled with both a man and nonman soul.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:52:06 pm
Quote from: Transcendiot
Kelmomas is an incarnation of Ajokli. That, or Sam was/is. Most likely: both together are. An embodiment of Ajokli may HAVE to have two souls, since it would take two conjoined souls to create the wickedness and inner-interplay we've seen in Kel. I mean, when he's talking to his older brother, the insinuation is that he IS Ajokli in a way - an incarnation, not just being used by him.

So, just like Kellhus is an incarnation of the Godhead (Krishna), Kel & Sam are an incarnation of Ajokli.
Of course, in any case, whether Ajokli knows it or not both Kel and Ajokli are agents for Kellhus and God respectively. Even the earth goddess will turn out to be an unwitting agent of the full Godhead, whether Kellhus is a real embodiment or not. But, I tend to think both he and little Kel are at least pseudo-embodiments. One Full Godhead or Kellhus, another just a piece of Godhead or Kellhus.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:52:14 pm
Quote from: Borric
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Mog Kellhus
Even the WLW doesn't seem to anticipate the little freak.

Huh. A threat the Gods are blind to.

 :o

No, just crackpot stuff. Can't be the case.

was it not the case, that Ajokli could see what the other gods could not? (the No-God).
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:52:22 pm
Quote from: Madness
I think Sharmat was using that to support his theory that Kelmomas is Ajolki's Avatar - something I support for different reasons. Clearly, Kelmomas has a role to play in the events of TUC. Maithanet managed to warn Esmenet to a degree, whether she believes him or not, as the Shriah apparently knew his nephew was hiding in the Labyrinth. Kelmomas is another Inrilatas, or worse. Esmenet suffers from a history of denial.

...
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:52:29 pm
Quote from: Borric
Yup, I was just offering more ammunition.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:52:34 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Madness
I think Sharmat was using that to support his theory that Kelmomas is Ajolki's Avatar - something I support for different reasons. Clearly, Kelmomas has a role to play in the events of TUC. Maithanet managed to warn Esmenet to a degree, whether she believes him or not, as the Shriah apparently knew his nephew was hiding in the Labyrinth. Kelmomas is another Inrilatas, or worse. Esmenet suffers from a history of denial.

...
I never said I thought Kelmomas is Ajokli's avatar, nor is it my theory. That bit of crackpot that was jokingly posted was me suggesting that Kelmomas is somehow or will be the No-God.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: What Came Before on June 01, 2013, 11:52:41 pm
Quote from: Madness
Apologies. Communication issues. I used my terms in understanding your post, if I was even paraphrasing correctly from you. I just meant that perhaps you were suggesting that Kelmomas was representing one of the Gods - I thought you had mentioned Ajolki. I simply use Avatar in my posts and musings concerning the concept of "representing the gods" or their mortal agents, etc.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: themerchant on July 15, 2013, 09:24:38 pm
Hello, not really sure where to put this, but hopefully here is relevant and it hasn't been discussed already, i personally haven't seen it so apologies if it has been spotted before.

OK the assumptions i've made with this "theory" are.

1.The Anasurimbor line has Nonman blood in it.
2. Anasurimbor burn their dead (as evidenced it seems from the view we had at the poisoning of Cel)

From TTT Orbit (UK Paperback) page 208

When Esme starts reading the Sagas, a description of the Birth of Celemonas and the still birth of his twin.

"Huormomas, the poet insisted, ever stalked his brother's side, chilling his heart even as he quickened his intellect"

"Chilling his heart and quickening his intellect"

Wouldn't that be a description of what Quirri does? Or indeed chanv maybe even better so?

they probably would have burned the stillborn were the ashes in a pouch at Celemonas side? CC's ashes are still kicking (or were) thousands of years later and have Skin eaters all taking some each night for quite a period of time.

Anyway just noticed that on a re-read back, not sure of it's relevance or if anyone else has seen it.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Wilshire on July 15, 2013, 09:35:08 pm
That is certainly an interesting note. It does seem to support the Anasurimbor/nonman blood theory.

Also, welcome to TSA.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Madness on July 17, 2013, 04:26:09 pm
There is Chanv and quiri. (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=814.0)

Here's fine, though. Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, merchant.

It's certainly an interesting idea and seems well founded for a Nerdanel ;).

Chanv specifically causes a loss of skin pigment so I think your hypotheses would support Qirri.

Perhaps, I'll have to move some of these posts later as I'm about veer sharply off topic:

Why do the Nonmen only burn their greatest? Is it simply for the Qirri?
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on February 17, 2014, 12:53:04 am
Strange--when I read the title for this thread, I thought it would be about Kelmomas' ability to see the onta.  Now that I see it's all about the inner dialogue, I can't help but wonder if the two are related.  Since all magic hinges on souls, and Kelmomas has perhaps some other soul kicking around inside, does this make him better at sorcery?  I know there is something about the Anasurimbor children having two souls, but the other kids don't seem to act like Kelmomas---in what sense do they have two souls but are not like him?

Makes me wonder about the difference between Kelmomas and um, his sister, forgetting name, swayali witch queen--she was identified early, but Kelmomas has maybe avoided it???  Or Kellhus is keeping him for some other purpose?
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Wilshire on February 17, 2014, 01:15:39 am
Well if adding innuterals makes the magic better, it might help to have another soul using another 2 or 3 while the physical caster is using the utteral and another 1 or 2 inutterals.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Cüréthañ on February 17, 2014, 02:43:08 am
Interesting that Celmomas (Lil Kel's namesake) was also known as the twinsouled.  Although he was no sorcerer, he did have that prophecy thing going on.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Wilshire on February 17, 2014, 02:53:39 am
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/46110162.jpg
lmao yes
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Madness on February 17, 2014, 01:41:46 pm
There is definitely something up with twins.

Celmomas - Sagas attribute his achievements to being haunted by the ghost of his dead twin.
Psatma - Lost her twin to the pox.
Kelmomas - Killed his twin.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Cüréthañ on February 17, 2014, 03:09:51 pm
Interesting point on twins, Madness.
For some reason I'm gripped by the thought that maybe Sarl is the Captain's twin 8o
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: locke on February 17, 2014, 08:43:38 pm
and you sort of complete the circuit of watcher and watched in a single entity if you're twin souled.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on February 18, 2014, 05:05:53 pm
Interesting point on twins, Madness.
For some reason I'm gripped by the thought that maybe Sarl is the Captain's twin 8o

I wants Sarl to be dunyain sooo baaaaad
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: The Sharmat on February 21, 2014, 03:56:05 am
Well if adding innuterals makes the magic better, it might help to have another soul using another 2 or 3 while the physical caster is using the utteral and another 1 or 2 inutterals.
Kelmomas/Samarmas are quite possibly one of the worst people on Earwa, and that's really saying something. The knowledge that he's one of the Few, and potentially far, far more powerful than even his father makes me fear for the future.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Somnambulist on February 21, 2014, 05:21:32 am
Well if adding innuterals makes the magic better, it might help to have another soul using another 2 or 3 while the physical caster is using the utteral and another 1 or 2 inutterals.
Kelmomas/Samarmas are quite possibly one of the worst people on Earwa, and that's really saying something. The knowledge that he's one of the Few, and potentially far, far more powerful than even his father makes me fear for the future.

This.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on February 21, 2014, 02:59:48 pm
Well if adding innuterals makes the magic better, it might help to have another soul using another 2 or 3 while the physical caster is using the utteral and another 1 or 2 inutterals.
Kelmomas/Samarmas are quite possibly one of the worst people on Earwa, and that's really saying something. The knowledge that he's one of the Few, and potentially far, far more powerful than even his father makes me fear for the future.

Awww, is he so bad?  He loves his mom!  Just like the inchoroi love their dear ole dead mum!

Do you really think he's bad or is it just that he's a kid with oedipal issues/other issues and the talent to do something about them?  I bet a lot of kids (me?) would have some terrible ideas pass through the skull but be utterly impotent to effect it.  It's a point that matters, I think, because we either see him go off to be something like a new ranking consult member or he gets to help save humanity because his rare combination of dunyain intellect, massive passion, gift of the few, stability.  Maybe only Serwa has the same combo.  But then they have different naughty bits!
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Somnambulist on February 21, 2014, 04:29:19 pm
Awww, is he so bad?  He loves his mom!  Just like the inchoroi love their dear ole dead mum!

Yeah, he kinda is.  While Kelhus and other dunyain at large seem to act in accordance with mastering circumstance (thus performing whatever act necessary to accomplish said task, but with detachment), Kelmomas seems to actively enjoy killing and torture.  He revels in it.  Mummy's little monster, literally.  Who could give that little guy any kind of positive guidance to make him not be the worst creature in the Three Seas?  If Kelhus is an egomaniac (like some of us believe), Kelmomas would burn the world on a whim.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Madness on February 22, 2014, 06:26:30 pm
Well if adding innuterals makes the magic better, it might help to have another soul using another 2 or 3 while the physical caster is using the utteral and another 1 or 2 inutterals.
Kelmomas/Samarmas are quite possibly one of the worst people on Earwa, and that's really saying something. The knowledge that he's one of the Few, and potentially far, far more powerful than even his father makes me fear for the future.

This.

+1 - though, I would argue that Inrilatas is worse simply for choosing to become the world's most Damned soul...

Awww, is he so bad?  He loves his mom!  Just like the inchoroi love their dear ole dead mum!

Yeah, he kinda is.  While Kelhus and other dunyain at large seem to act in accordance with mastering circumstance (thus performing whatever act necessary to accomplish said task, but with detachment), Kelmomas seems to actively enjoy killing and torture.  He revels in it.  Mummy's little monster, literally.  Who could give that little guy any kind of positive guidance to make him not be the worst creature in the Three Seas?  If Kelhus is an egomaniac (like some of us believe), Kelmomas would burn the world on a whim.

See; Kelmomas planning to burn Momemn in effigy even as he works to cause actual unrest between the Mantle (Esmenet) and the Tusk (Maithanet).
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Wilshire on February 24, 2014, 05:21:06 pm
Him I disagree. I think by trying to become the most damned, he could no longer become it. Such things could only be  achieved through ignorance... Or maybe that only applies through divinity, and its the opposite for the damned?
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on February 25, 2014, 05:18:44 pm
@ Madness - I never could make up my mind about Inrilatas, I sort of believed him, but I couldn't shake the feeling that he's simply mad and the whole speech is just a ruse to manipulate Kelmomas.  Part of me thinks that the whole affair was Inrilatas just being sick of living and figuring out a nice, grand way to commit suicide.  Now he's in the outside!  If that place runs on passion, he might be some kind of special ciphrang.  :)  Perhaps he leads all the dead members of Kellhus family back on the stage right when we need a deus ex machina.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Wilshire on February 25, 2014, 09:01:55 pm
Haha Inrilatas could have been quite the Psukari. What a terrifying thought.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Madness on February 27, 2014, 01:49:12 pm
@ Madness - I never could make up my mind about Inrilatas, I sort of believed him, but I couldn't shake the feeling that he's simply mad and the whole speech is just a ruse to manipulate Kelmomas.  Part of me thinks that the whole affair was Inrilatas just being sick of living and figuring out a nice, grand way to commit suicide.  Now he's in the outside!  If that place runs on passion, he might be some kind of special ciphrang.  :)  Perhaps he leads all the dead members of Kellhus family back on the stage right when we need a deus ex machina.

I believed him. Inrilatas was actually one of the characters I identified most with (which is fucked up really). But as a child I had no filter and simply called shit as I saw it. I made the choice to consciously continue this as an adult, [except] where I say nothing and hold my tongue, but growing up it caused me a lot of grief and others a lot of sadness or anger.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on February 27, 2014, 05:01:27 pm
YOU'RE THE FUN ONE AT THE PARTIES!
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Madness on February 27, 2014, 06:30:50 pm
I may or may not compare myself to Cohle. But I am not nearly so pessimistic as he is.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on February 27, 2014, 08:49:09 pm
I do not know Cohle
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on March 05, 2014, 02:06:01 am
Kelmomas' Voice = Yatwer?

What with Bakker setting up WLW, Sorweel, and Fanayal as potential narindar, could some or all of these guys be decoys to distract us from Yatwer using Kelmomas?  Others have pointed out that Kelmomas' birth after the strange things may signal divine intervention, so what if it is Yatwer, setting up Kelmomas as the one who will kill Kellhus?  An exhausted Kellhus warped back vs the clever Kelmomas might be a match...
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Wilshire on March 05, 2014, 02:21:27 am
Its all about stepping into the impossible moment that Kellhus could not have seen. This is one of the reasons I think him being exhausted after his teleportation is a lie. An easy way to stop a would be assassin who thinks they are hitting him when he is most vulnerable.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on March 05, 2014, 01:15:05 pm
Yeah, I bet it's a lie too--for tricking assassins and for showing a softer side to Esmi
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Wilshire on March 05, 2014, 02:20:55 pm
I seems ridiculous, but its really hard to believe that anything Kellhus says or does is truthful.

Would the series be less interesting if we could take most everything at face value?
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: locke on March 05, 2014, 06:59:18 pm
Yeah, I bet it's a lie too--for tricking assassins and for showing a softer side to Esmi
not just showing Esmi a softer side, but it's secret knowledge for esmi, her thinking only she knew how much teleportation taxes him elicits sympathy and other emotions of self-flattery that are terrific levers of control for Kellhus.  And he may not trust Esmi.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Madness on March 06, 2014, 04:58:48 am
An exhausted Kellhus warped back vs the clever Kelmomas might be a match...

This is one of the reasons I think him being exhausted after his teleportation is a lie.

not just showing Esmi a softer side, but it's secret knowledge for esmi, her thinking only she knew how much teleportation taxes him elicits sympathy and other emotions of self-flattery that are terrific levers of control for Kellhus.  And he may not trust Esmi.

Quote from: TJE, p402
But the roots of his father's exhaustion stopped short of the deeper intonations that warbled in and out of his discourse.

It's also during this portion of Kelmomas' interaction with the Voice that it is most clear that the Voice both knows things that Kelmomas doesn't and that the Voice doesn't refer to Kellhus as his relation (like Samarmas might, and Kelmomas does, call him father).
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on March 08, 2014, 06:15:26 pm
Dear Madness, are you insinuating that Kelmomas' Voice IS Kellhus?  This is the agent in Momen?
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on March 09, 2014, 02:29:27 am
Yeah, I bet it's a lie too--for tricking assassins and for showing a softer side to Esmi
not just showing Esmi a softer side, but it's secret knowledge for esmi, her thinking only she knew how much teleportation taxes him elicits sympathy and other emotions of self-flattery that are terrific levers of control for Kellhus.  And he may not trust Esmi.

Well, while we're at it, we might as well just discount ANYTHING we think we know about Kellhus' ability to warp.  Maybe he can go from Ishual to Momen in the blink of an eye...
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Madness on March 09, 2014, 12:57:07 pm
I'm insinuating that the Voice isn't Samarmas but I have thought about Kelmomas being Kellhus' agent in Momemn... which is deliciously ironic.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on March 09, 2014, 07:40:07 pm
I'm insinuating that the Voice isn't Samarmas but I have thought about Kelmomas being Kellhus' agent in Momemn... which is deliciously ironic.

The best agent is the one already on the stage!
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on March 15, 2014, 01:32:42 am
I'm thinking that Kellhus might be able to do a variation on far-calling--but take it beyond dreaming states and do it wherever he is / wherever they are.

Also, it struck me recently that one of the main reasons to put Sammi in the story was that the twin-staring-thing carried Kelmomas right through the early years until he was bigger and had more control over himself.  In other words, he might have behaved similar to Inrilatas, or at least showed that he was super talented, but he spent the whole time staring.  It allowed him to seem 'normal' to Esmi and somehow 'like' Kayutas and Theli who apparently flowered more gradually.  In other words, Sammi protected Kelmomas from Kellhus' scrutiny until it was too late.

I like Theli.  If she's scheming to be the last Anasurimbor standing, she's doing a heck of a job.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Wilshire on March 19, 2014, 02:52:29 pm
I'm thinking that Kellhus might be able to do a variation on far-calling--but take it beyond dreaming states and do it wherever he is / wherever they are.


Like.

Would it be more or less complex to do cants of calling whilst away compared to the transposing your physical body? I wonder...
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on March 19, 2014, 04:33:44 pm
I'm thinking that Kellhus might be able to do a variation on far-calling--but take it beyond dreaming states and do it wherever he is / wherever they are.


Like.

Would it be more or less complex to do cants of calling whilst away compared to the transposing your physical body? I wonder...

Moe affects to be nearly broken by sending dreams to Ishual, but I have a sneaky suspicion that Dunyain + sorcery = spatial limits simply no longer matter.  There may be some strange scenes in TUC when Kellhus stops pretending that distance matters as he flickers from Dauglish to Momen to the Ark to Ishual to Ishterebinth in a single chapter!
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: themerchant on March 19, 2014, 04:53:30 pm
he could be using cants of compulsion in a way to affect folks thinking as well.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on March 19, 2014, 05:03:12 pm
I'm sure he his--I hope we get some explanation about this in TUC.  Kellhus tries HARD to condition people, seems like it would be simpler to just force them to do your will.  I expect there are limits to each way, so he can't compel people for every purpose.

EDIT: And psukhe compultions!  Could be anywhere, anytime!
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Madness on March 20, 2014, 09:40:08 am
I'm thinking that Kellhus might be able to do a variation on far-calling--but take it beyond dreaming states and do it wherever he is / wherever they are.


Like.

Would it be more or less complex to do cants of calling whilst away compared to the transposing your physical body? I wonder...

Moe affects to be nearly broken by sending dreams to Ishual, but I have a sneaky suspicion that Dunyain + sorcery = spatial limits simply no longer matter.  There may be some strange scenes in TUC when Kellhus stops pretending that distance matters as he flickers from Dauglish to Momen to the Ark to Ishual to Ishterebinth in a single chapter!

+1

he could be using cants of compulsion in a way to affect folks thinking as well.

I'm sure he his--I hope we get some explanation about this in TUC.  Kellhus tries HARD to condition people, seems like it would be simpler to just force them to do your will.  I expect there are limits to each way, so he can't compel people for every purpose.

+1
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Wilshire on March 21, 2014, 04:21:09 pm
mmm Psuke compulsions. Like skin spies, but way harder to detect. The perfect sleeper cells, where even the sleeper knows not his purpose.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on March 22, 2014, 08:40:10 pm
mmm Psuke compulsions. Like skin spies, but way harder to detect. The perfect sleeper cells, where even the sleeper knows not his purpose.

THIS IS WHAT I THINK OLD MOE IS DOING TO KELLHUS!!!
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: locke on March 23, 2014, 08:04:29 am
Father, the sleeper must awaken!
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Wilshire on March 27, 2014, 12:55:37 pm
Father, the sleeper must awaken!
Who's saying that?

Wouldn't the father be saying, we must keep the sleepers dreaming.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on March 27, 2014, 11:02:42 pm
Rereading the last Momen chapter in WLW really makes me think that Kelmomas is Kellhus agent in Momen.

EDIT: referring to passage on page 506-7 in US edition.  Kelmomas talks about daddy sharing secrets with him.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Wilshire on March 28, 2014, 12:07:13 pm
Kelmomas is 'whelmed' offscreen at the beginning of TJE. Harder for me to believe that Kel is not Kell's agent.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on April 12, 2014, 08:56:08 pm
Kelmomas is 'whelmed' offscreen at the beginning of TJE. Harder for me to believe that Kel is not Kell's agent.

Whelmed without dad present?  Would he be the only kid, maybe, that got a no-kellhus whelming?
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Madness on April 15, 2014, 11:21:54 am
Kelmomas is 'whelmed' offscreen at the beginning of TJE. Harder for me to believe that Kel is not Kell's agent.

Whelmed without dad present?  Would he be the only kid, maybe, that got a no-kellhus whelming?

It'd be interesting if this was Kellhus' mistake with Kelmomas (it's hard to think of Kellhus making mistakes but he must somewhere).
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Wilshire on April 25, 2014, 11:43:08 pm
Kelmomas is 'whelmed' offscreen at the beginning of TJE. Harder for me to believe that Kel is not Kell's agent.

Whelmed without dad present?  Would he be the only kid, maybe, that got a no-kellhus whelming?

What? Kellhus is the one that does the whelmingly, remember he can be anywhere he wants, any when. It happened "off screen" i.e. without the reader present.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on April 26, 2014, 02:06:27 pm
Kelmomas is 'whelmed' offscreen at the beginning of TJE. Harder for me to believe that Kel is not Kell's agent.

Whelmed without dad present?  Would he be the only kid, maybe, that got a no-kellhus whelming?

What? Kellhus is the one that does the whelmingly, remember he can be anywhere he wants, any when. It happened "off screen" i.e. without the reader present.

I kind of thought that whelming got two meanings in the series: one that Kellhus does personally and one that is just a ritual conducted by any old priest whatever.  I'll try to find what made me think that, I think it's something in the beginning of TTT when everyone in Caraskand is converting.

Still, that doesn't mean Kellhus wasn't there.  I think he'd take a special interest in his own kids whelming unless Maitha is right that Kellhus has abandoned the three seas.  Not whelming Kelmomas personally would be the right move if Kellhus is manipulating Kelmomas from the darkness.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: themerchant on April 26, 2014, 04:43:58 pm
Yeah little Kel is working for Kellhus as is everyone pretty much. I even half think that theo is playing charades making it appear she is more skittish than she is.  there are points in the books where little Kel thinks she is scrutinising him.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on April 26, 2014, 04:50:14 pm
Yeah little Kel is working for Kellhus as is everyone pretty much. I even half think that theo is playing charades making it appear she is more skittish than she is.  there are points in the books where little Kel thinks she is scrutinising him.

Totally agree about Theli--I think she was cognizant early, like her crazed brother, but she decided to adopt a disguise.  :P  Team Theli!
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on May 13, 2014, 12:57:50 pm
Maybe Kelmomas will attempt to kill Theli because then he would be the only face-reader left in the Andiamine heights?  Even more indispensable to mommy?  We've already heard that he wants to not tell if he sees a skin spy!

I wonder if there are some non-Anasurimbor face readers about?  If Kellhus could teach at least one normal dude to do a meta-gnostic cant, maybe he could make some face readers too!
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Cüréthañ on May 13, 2014, 10:30:33 pm
Yeah little Kel is working for Kellhus as is everyone pretty much. I even half think that theo is playing charades making it appear she is more skittish than she is.  there are points in the books where little Kel thinks she is scrutinising him.

Kellhus tells Proyas he still has some resources in the New Empire, clearly not referring to Maitha (it's after he explains that Maitha and Esme are at odds).
Interestingly, lil Kel reveals he has been conditioned in his final scene in WLW.  We only get his exterior dialogue, but he's telling the voice how things are going with the ordeal.  He describes how the Few are culling sranc with exactitude, then...

Quote
"Father told me. In his own words, he said, "This is how it will happen, Kel."
...
"Well, mostly in his words.  Some of my words too."
...
"Secret words - he even said so.  Words that no one - no one - can hear."
"No. He never told me to kill anyone But then, why would he have to? The words were secret..."

So secret that even the inner voice is unaware of them, after counciling lil Kel to be so careful around big Kel?  Wheels within wheels.

Imagine the shit storm that little bastard will unleash if/when Esme is killed.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: The Sharmat on May 14, 2014, 01:12:08 pm
I half suspect there will be another huge time jump between Unholy Consult and the third series of books, just so Bakker can depict the horrifying prospect that is Kelmomas/Samarmas wielding real political power.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Wilshire on May 19, 2014, 05:07:21 pm

Quote
"Father told me. In his own words, he said, "This is how it will happen, Kel."
...
"Well, mostly in his words.  Some of my words too."
...
"Secret words - he even said so.  Words that no one - no one - can hear."
"No. He never told me to kill anyone But then, why would he have to? The words were secret..."

So secret that even the inner voice is unaware of them, after counciling lil Kel to be so careful around big Kel?  Wheels within wheels.

Imagine the shit storm that little bastard will unleash if/when Esme is killed.
I have totally forgotten about that passage. Its easy to glance over information that the reader knows even though Kel had no business knowing.
This reminds me of Kellhus talking to Seswatha through Akka, except in reverse. During Kelmomas' whelming, Kellhus hypnotized the inner voice and spoke directly to Kelmomas, hiding Kel's conditioning from his other self.

I half suspect there will be another huge time jump between Unholy Consult and the third series of books, just so Bakker can depict the horrifying prospect that is Kelmomas/Samarmas wielding real political power.
I think there will be a time jump as well, even larger than the 20 years from PoN to AE. I haven't yet decided for what purpose though.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on May 27, 2014, 04:24:53 am
@ Curethan - What you said, it makes me think that were being set up...Esmi's death was ALWAYS going to be the trigger for something bloody.

@ The Sharmat - 20 years to take us to Kelmomas' ruling the 3seas would be VERY compelling.  Like Nero or some other nasty tyrant?
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on September 05, 2014, 08:29:21 pm
That Kellhus kept breeding beyond the children he could take with him in the Great Ordeal makes me think he was up to one of these possibilities:

1. Just keeping up appearances.  Strong Emperor make big family.

2. He was hedging his bets about exactly when the Great Ordeal would launch or if it would launch in time.  If it was too long delayed, Kellhus might eventually use all of his children during the Second Apocalypse.

3. He wanted agents in Momen.  Kelmomas age makes him particularly manipulable.

4. He was planning past the destruction of the Consult.  What's next?  Possibly if Kellhus thinks Ishual and all the Dunyain are dead, he envisions restarting the breeding program to grasp the Absolute?

Kind of weird thinking about Earwa hundred's of years after the WLW.  The Anasurimbor dynasty, of the warring fragments of it, still the most poweful because of the Dunyain blood.  But each son likely to be dumber/less talented than his father.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: The Sharmat on September 05, 2014, 09:27:11 pm
5. Maithanet was right about him and in his un-Dunyain weakness for Esmi he kept up the labors for her sake and attempted to have a child that would not secretly revolt her.

Just throwing that out there.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on September 05, 2014, 10:22:28 pm
too true!
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Uncle Holy on March 18, 2015, 12:18:08 am
Your arguments make sense...but is it not probable that Kel is just bat-shit crazy? I paid attention to the inner voice and if that voice was Kellhus entirely, then certain things make no sense...like Kel killing Sharacinth when Kellhus (i think) wants stability in the Empire or at least has every reason to sabotage Yatwer...some of the voice's rants about killing some noble that annoyed it...the way the voice tried to hide inexpertly when Kel faced Inrilathas...is it not possible that, in the instant of the spiitting of their personalities at infancy, Sarmi's "dunyainness" was transferred to Kelmomas, making him smarter at an early age than the rest of Kellhus's progeny but also insane since in a way he has 2 consciousnesses within him? I dont know if this has been discussed here before...
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: The Sharmat on March 18, 2015, 10:51:17 am
I personally think the voice in Kelmomas's head is Samarmas, and has been all along. Their souls were bound at birth, and that priest that tore them apart did it imperfectly. Kelmomas's entire soul entered his own body along with a big fragment of Samarmas's soul, leaving the tiny bit left in Samarmas' body retarded.

I also endorse a crackpot theory wherein Samarmas's soul is actually the historical dead twin of Anasurimbor Celmomas, from the time of the First Apocalypse.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Uncle Holy on March 27, 2015, 09:00:50 pm
5. Maithanet was right about him and in his un-Dunyain weakness for Esmi he kept up the labors for her sake and attempted to have a child that would not secretly revolt her.

Just throwing that out there.

Or perhaps, it's not really a weakness but there was no harm in indulging Esmi especially since when her hopes were dashed, he could shrug and say "Hey! I tried..."...plus more children meant more tools...
Quote
Immortality and bliss—this was the living promise all women bore between their thighs. Strong sons and gasping climax. If what men called truth were ever the hostage of their desires, how could they fail to make slaves of their women? To hide them like hoarded gold. To feast on them like melons. To discard them like rinds.
Was this not why he used her? The promise of sons in her hips?
Dûnyain sons.

Quote
Lying with one leg kicked free of the sheets, Kellhus stroked Esmenet’s cheek, saw past her flushed skin, beyond her beating heart, following the telltale markers all the way to her womb.
Our blood, Father … In a world of maladroit and bovine souls, nothing could be more precious.
The House of Anasûrimbor.
The Dûnyain not only saw deep, they saw far. Even if the Holy War survived Caraskand, even if Shimeh was reconquered, the wars were only beginning … Achamian had taught him that much.
And in the end, only sons could conquer death.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: The Sharmat on May 20, 2015, 02:33:19 am
"And in the end, only sons could conquer death."

Stop giving me stuff to twist for my "Samarmas is the real Harbinger" idea.
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on June 02, 2015, 05:42:19 pm
Your arguments make sense...but is it not probable that Kel is just bat-shit crazy? I paid attention to the inner voice and if that voice was Kellhus entirely, then certain things make no sense...like Kel killing Sharacinth when Kellhus (i think) wants stability in the Empire or at least has every reason to sabotage Yatwer...some of the voice's rants about killing some noble that annoyed it...the way the voice tried to hide inexpertly when Kel faced Inrilathas...is it not possible that, in the instant of the spiitting of their personalities at infancy, Sarmi's "dunyainness" was transferred to Kelmomas, making him smarter at an early age than the rest of Kellhus's progeny but also insane since in a way he has 2 consciousnesses within him? I dont know if this has been discussed here before...

definitely!  Kel could just be crazy--which would make him a really fun emperor later!  but i really am hoping that Kel is Kellhus agent (one of them) in Momen.  idk why Kellhus would want to destabilize the empire, but he could have a reason, esp if he's planning on becoming or controlling Mog and killing off the rest of humanity ...

The Series That Shall Not Be Named is Kellhus vs Esmi for the fate of the world!!!
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Wilshire on June 04, 2015, 01:05:53 pm
I personally think the voice in Kelmomas's head is Samarmas, and has been all along. Their souls were bound at birth, and that priest that tore them apart did it imperfectly. Kelmomas's entire soul entered his own body along with a big fragment of Samarmas's soul, leaving the tiny bit left in Samarmas' body retarded.

I also endorse a crackpot theory wherein Samarmas's soul is actually the historical dead twin of Anasurimbor Celmomas, from the time of the First Apocalypse.
I like all these things :).
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: mrganondorf on September 22, 2015, 10:14:41 pm
have we done the theory that Kelmomas' voice could be Meppa, Moenghus, or some other Cishaurim?  i think if the voice is from sorcery, it will need to be from a Cishaurim unless Kellhus has found a loophole.  i think communication via gnosis/anagogis might leave traces of the stain (see Akka's concern that compelling Inrau will alert the Luthymae).
Title: Re: Kelmomas' voice
Post by: Wilshire on October 12, 2015, 01:32:43 pm
Yeah it leaves some trace, but it's hard to say how much. Either way I think you are right. If sorcery, then psuke